Liberals lynch composers

[M forever]

In Finland, some people are heated about some little medallion which he accepted from Goebbels (or was it Goering?). I'm Finnish, by the way.

Do the same people also get "heated" about the fact that Finland was actually allied to Germany throughout most of WWII?

[Guido]

Ives has been accused of homophobia, though I persionally don't by it.

What about his rejection of Cowell, and constant talk of sissies and pansies and all that? You don't buy Swafford's thoery that he was fearful of not being considered manly (something he had tried desperately to cultivate in good old Yale) because he had chosen the 'sissy' subject of music?

[Joe Barron]

What about his rejection of Cowell, and constant talk of sissies and pansies and all that? You don't buy Swafford's thoery that he was fearful of not being considered manly (something he had tried desperately to cultivate in good old Yale) because he had chosen the 'sissy' subject of music?

According to Kyle Gann, Ives stayed in touch with Cowell while the latter was in prison on sex charges, and he was good friends with Lou Harrison, who was certainly out. It was, rather, his wife, Harmony, who was scandalized by l'affaire Cowell. (Harmony also objected when Ives set a verse by that dirty old man Walt Whitman, and as a result, he did it only once. It's one of his best songs.)

As for the whole "sissy" thing, this might sound strange, but there is no indication that Ives's choice of language had anything to do with sexual orientation.  He never used words like homo or queer. In the parlance of his time, "sissy" or "pansy" or "lily boy" might just have meant someone who wasn't one of the guys ---  a mama's boy, a decadent, a fop, a dandy, though not necessarily someone who was gay. George Carlin said much the same thing in his monologues: When he was a boy, he said, the term "fag" had nothing to do with sex. A fag was just a sissy, someone who wouldn't go stealing or hitching on trucks. Ives may have meant his pejoratives in the same way. More specifically, in Ives mind, it had to do with the subject of dissonance. The  homophobia charge didn't really take off until Frank Rossiter published his biography of Ives in 1974, and like Carter's comments questioning the dates of Ives's innovations, it was taken up later by others and blown out of proportion. 

[kristopaivinen]

Do the same people also get "heated" about the fact that Finland was actually allied to Germany throughout most of WWII?

I'm not sure, but Finland was never officially allied to Germany. We only had a common enemy.

[quintett op.57]

What is there to make of it? The fact that he worked with Hermann Levi does not change the fact that he wrote Judenthum. At the same time, though, it must be admitted that Wagner's personality was not one of a one-dimensional, drooling anti-Semite. He was a human with contradictory tendencies and actions.

So, what do I make of it? That Richard Wagner was a human.

But I'm also talking about their friendship. Hermann Levi was even chosen to carry Wagner's coffin from the Church to the cemetery.

Wagner's aim is not comparable to Hitler's. He didn't hate jews. He disliked their culture and wanted them to assimilate german's culture. He thought their culture was a threat for Germany. It was his analysis.

I'm not convinced at all by this analysis, but I confess I've never started an analysis of this topic.
None of us has made an analysis of this topic I think.
So, just don't judge.

[Chaszz]

...Wagner's aim is not comparable to Hitler's. He didn't hate jews. He disliked their culture and wanted them to assimilate german's culture. He thought their culture was a threat for Germany. It was his analysis...

Wagner's essay "Judaism in Music" is extant on the web, and in my humble opinion you might consider looking through it (if you haven't) before making a statement as mild as this about his very intense remarks.

[Josquin des Prez]

Maybe the majority of Jews in his day were all like Saul.

[uffeviking]

If this thread turns into another Wagner/Saul bashing activity, I won't only edit, but lock it. A bit of tolerance and brotherly love goes a long way to make GMG a pleasant forum to visit!

Thank you!  0:)
uffeviking

[jochanaan]

Hear, hear!

And both Wagner and Gershwin died a long time ago.  Let's let their MUSIC live, and them rest in peace.  Or better yet, if you don't like their attitudes toward Jews or blacks, write a masterpiece that promotes your own views.  "It is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness."

[Bunny]

Do the same people also get "heated" about the fact that Finland was actually allied to Germany throughout most of WWII?

I pity the poor Finns, caught between Stalin who wanted to gobble up their country, and Hitler whose appetite for territory never diminished.  They only just managed to keep their independence after years of battling the Tsarists, so I'm sure they felt a good deal safer allying themselves with Germany. 

[marvinbrown]

Hear, hear!

And both Wagner and Gershwin died a long time ago.  Let's let their MUSIC live, and them rest in peace.  Or better yet, if you don't like their attitudes toward Jews or blacks, write a masterpiece that promotes your own views.  "It is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness."

  A very sensible and wise approach indeed!

  marvin

[kristopaivinen]

What upsets me most about people who perceive social injustice in these musical works is that they mostly disregard or downplay the valuable in the works, while raging hysterically about the "racism" or "misogynism". If they have anything positive to say about the music, then it's most often said in the manner of "even though the music is lovely, it contains racism" rather than "even though it contains racism, the music is lovely". That said, I'm not sure about what makes Porgy and Bess so "racist", and I have no idea at all what is misogynistic about Berg's Lulu.

[Josquin des Prez]

and I have no idea at all what is misogynistic about Berg's Lulu.

It shows some universal truths about women. Can't possibly have that.

[Mark G. Simon]

What upsets me most about people who perceive social injustice in these musical works is that they mostly disregard or downplay the valuable in the works, while raging hysterically about the "racism" or "misogynism". If they have anything positive to say about the music, then it's most often said in the manner of "even though the music is lovely, it contains racism" rather than "even though it contains racism, the music is lovely".

Actually Gershwin uses music to put the audience's sympathies entirely with the denizens of Catfish Row. The black characters sing. The white characters (detective, policeman, coroner) only speak. That diminishes the white characters, makes them less human in a way.They are the outsiders in the world of this opera, denied the ability to express themselves in song. This is one aspect of the opera that you lose in "musicalized" productions of P & B that use spoken dialogue between the famous numbers instead of Gershwin's through-composed operatic word setting.

[greg]

It shows some universal truths about women. Can't possibly have that.

haha, it's pretty dead on, isn't it? 

[quintett op.57]

Wagner's essay "Judaism in Music" is extant on the web, and in my humble opinion you might consider looking through it (if you haven't) before making a statement as mild as this about his very intense remarks.

It's true that I'm not well documented, I confess.

But what appears clear to me (because he had jewish friends) is that Wagner was not the kind of guy who could think : "I hate this guy because he's a jews".

I have more consideration for a guy like Wagner over a guy who hates racists (who, in my opinion, is exactly the same than the guy who hates jews, black or white people...).

At least you admit he's not comparable to Hitler, don't you?

Wagner is like most of us, he has prejudices. His prejudices were much more common at that time. If they're weaker nowadays, it's not because you guys are better people than Wagner but because of the historical context.