Liberals lynch composers

[kristopaivinen]

I don't have anything against fighting social injustice, but I'm tired of these dirty liberals who find it everywhere. I remember when I first got familiar with Berg's Lulu, and I read the play it's based on was somewhere branded as misogynistic. Then I got familiar with Gershwin's Porgy and Bess, and a lot of people seemed to have considered the story as racist. Duke Ellington stated "the times are here to debunk Gershwin's lampblack Negroisms". Betty Allen, president of the Harlem School of the Arts, admittedly loathed the piece and Grace Bumbry, who excelled in the 1985 Metropolitan Opera production as Bess, made the often cited statement: "I thought it beneath me, I felt I had worked far too hard, that we had come far too far to have to retrogress to 1935." These accusations also bring to mind Sibelius, which wasn't far from being considered nazi music after Theodor Adorno wrote a very rude polemic against it, and Tschaikovsky, whose music was homophobic according to the same people. It's just music, people. How can the music be dismissed on the grounds that it promotes social injustice?

[Joe Barron]

Well, I find Gone With the Wind offensive, and I can't get around it by telling myself it's only a movie. Porgy isn't just music, there is text, and nothing dates like an old stereotype.  In your examples, it seems, the people who are objecting to the opera's portrayal of blacks are not liberals. They are blacks. 

[Brian]

Tschaikovsky, whose music was homophobic according to the same people.

How on earth can this be? 

[Joe Barron]

How on earth can this be? 

Ives has been accused of homophobia, though I persionally don't by it.

[PSmith08]

How on earth can this be? 

Someone has a wicked and almost unfunny sense of irony?

[quintett op.57]

Tschaikovsky, whose music was homophobic according to the same people.

From what I know, he was gay

[Brian]

From what I know, he was gay

Ted Haggard is a homophobic gay person. Tchaikovsky, of course, wasn't. 

[quintett op.57]

The problem is that people always want to judge personalities of the past with today's morals and political correctness.

What do you people think about Wagner's admiration & friendship for Hermann Levi?

[PSmith08]

What do you people think about Wagner's admiration & friendship for Hermann Levi?

What is there to make of it? The fact that he worked with Hermann Levi does not change the fact that he wrote Judenthum. At the same time, though, it must be admitted that Wagner's personality was not one of a one-dimensional, drooling anti-Semite. He was a human with contradictory tendencies and actions.

So, what do I make of it? That Richard Wagner was a human.

[kristopaivinen]

Well, I find Gone With the Wind offensive, and I can't get around it by telling myself it's only a movie. Porgy isn't just music, there is text, and nothing dates like an old stereotype.  In your examples, it seems, the people who are objecting to the opera's portrayal of blacks are not liberals. They are blacks. 

And the people who objected to Sibelius music were Jews, is that right?

The problem is that some people dismiss the entire work just because of the text. If these people would have their way, Gershwin would be remembered as the man who wrote that racist opera, not as the man who wrote that lovely music.

[Lethevich]

What is there to make of it? The fact that he worked with Hermann Levi does not change the fact that he wrote Judenthum. At the same time, though, it must be admitted that Wagner's personality was not one of a one-dimensional, drooling anti-Semite. He was a human with contradictory tendencies and actions.

So, what do I make of it? That Richard Wagner was a human.

Exactly, and it's a similar case with Schumann (and his mild anti-semitism). The reason Wagner is more railed on than Schumann should be obvious - Wagner was rather deeper into that stuff.

That if anything shows that the supposed evil anti-art liberals are actually able to discriminate between major and minor actions.

[Josquin des Prez]

And the people who objected to Sibelius music were Jews, is that right?

The problem is that some people dismiss the entire work just because of the text. If these people would have their way, Gershwin would be remembered as the man who wrote that racist opera, not as the man who wrote that lovely music.

Wasn't Gershwin jewish? As we all know, minorities are incapable of racism or prejudice of any kind.

[Joe Barron]

And the people who objected to Sibelius music were Jews, is that right?

I'm not sure. Was Adorno Jewish? He's the only one you mention. But my point stands. The criticism of Porgy has nothing to do with liberalism,but rather with the sensitivities of the persons being depicted. 

Adorno had a lot of bad things to say about a lot of great composers --- Stravinsky in particular --- all based on his own theoretical preconceptions of what music is or should be. That, too, has nothing to do with liberalism. Much of what he says is suspect.

One difference between Gershwin and Wagner is that Gershwin's intentions were honorable. He did not mean to deman black people ---and refused to allow the roles to be played by whites in blackface, a major step forward from his Jolson-Sqwanee days --- but the stereotypes are out there for all to see. Wagner was openly and virulently anti-Semitic, but he either covered it up well in his work or did not include it at all, depending on which critics you believe.

This discussion seems to be confusing a composer's personal failings or sexual orientation with his artistic legacy. 

[LVB_opus.125]

Exactly, and it's a similar case with Schumann (and his mild anti-semitism). The reason Wagner is more railed on than Schumann should be obvious - Wagner was rather deeper into that stuff.

That if anything shows that the supposed evil anti-art liberals are actually able to discriminate between major and minor actions.

More likely, the minor just flew under their radars. Dismissing art due to the supposed or confirmed racism of the artist is a slippery slope. In the end we can find something displeasing about the personal lives or actions of any artist, and using the anti-racist racists criteria, we'd have to dismiss them all.

[kristopaivinen]

I'm not sure. Was Adorno Jewish? He's the only one you mention. But my point stands. The criticism of Porgy has nothing to do with liberalism,but rather with the sensitivities of the persons being depicted. 

Adorno had a lot of bad things to say about a lot of great composers --- Stravinsky in particular --- all based on his own theoretical preconceptions of what music is or should be. That, too, has nothing to do with liberalism. Much of what he says is suspect.

One difference between Gershwin and Wagner is that Gershwin's intentions were honorable. He did not mean to deman black people ---and refused to allow the roles to be played by whites in blackface, a major step forward from his Jolson-Sqwanee days --- but the stereotypes are out there for all to see. Wagner was openly and virulently anti-Semitic, but he either covered it up well in his work or did not include it at all, depending on which critics you believe.

This discussion seems to be confusing a composer's personal failings or sexual orientation with his artistic legacy. 

Adorno is the only internationally famous person I know to have presented Sibelius as a nazi composer, but I have heard similar polemics on the internet from people who hate his music. In Finland, some people are heated about some little medallion which he accepted from Goebbels (or was it Goering?). I'm Finnish, by the way.

I really meant whether all people persecuted by nazis object to Sibelius' music, but I used the word "Jews" in an analogy to when you said that the ones objecting to Porgy and Bess were Black people, not liberals, but obviously not all Black people dismiss the entire work because of the text. Many Black people who have objected to the alleged racism in Porgy and Bess speak as if the music itself had no value because of that.

[marvinbrown]

Exactly, and it's a similar case with Schumann (and his mild anti-semitism). The reason Wagner is more railed on than Schumann should be obvious - Wagner was rather deeper into that stuff.

  Wagner's antisemitism gets far more attention than it deserves.  But ironically as Daniel Barenboim said it keeps him alive. That said I find many operas such as Verdi's Rigoletto with its sexist treatment of Gilda far more disturbing than any of Wagner's music dramas!  If we are going to start censoring composers and their works there is no end to all the sexist (Cosi fan Tutte, Rigoletto et al), racist (Parsifal, Rosenkavalier), antisemitic (St. Matthew Passion, Salome et al)  content that we will find.  Take it all with a grain of salt and just enjoy the music that's what I say  .  After all there are so many things in life worth getting upset about than some silly opera plot!


  Edit: incidentally Der Rosenkavalier reeks of ageism as well!
  marvin

[Lethevich]

Wagner's antisemitism gets far more attention than it deserves.

Probably. People tend to latch onto Wagner to prevent them from doing the hard work involved in checking out all the other famous figures of his time - they will find a few nasty surprises there as well. But I'm also fine with his name getting a bit of a kicking due to his actions, after all, few people went as far as producing manifestos on the human subjects of their disatisfaction... I can still enjoy his music, but the consequences of promoting it are in promoting the composer himself, who had some really gross views, which inevitably creates problems which aren't there with other generally "good egg" composers such as Verdi, Mendelssohn and Berlioz.

Re. Verdi's icky moments, I find Falstaff to be the hardest to watch, generally, as I feel sorry for him, and despite the ending, the second half leading up to that feels nasty (comma abuse! ).

[Josquin des Prez]

Personally, i solved the problem by becoming a sexist, racist and anti-semite pig. Works like a charm.

[Chaszz]

The problem is that people always want to judge personalities of the past with today's morals and political correctness.

What do you people think about Wagner's admiration & friendship for Hermann Levi?

I remember reading somewhere that Wagner's using Levi to conduct the premiere of Parsifal was not his own choice; rather it was imposed on him by Ludwig II who helped in large part with the financing. However, I cannot find a reference for this on the web, now.
In any case, most anti-semites have their "favorite" Jews, whom they exempt from general condemnation, and the same is true of other racists and bigots also.

The suggestion that his anti-semtisim helps keep Wagner's name alive I think is mistaken or at best irrelevant. The quality of his music is so strong it would keep him in the repertory no matter what. Indeed, IMO the music does a heroic job of battling to stay above the melodramatic mediocrity of most of his plots, which would have sunk into complete obscurity on their own merits before 1890.

As for Porgy and Bess, black people have every right to criticize its stereotypes if they see fit. Duke Ellington was not at all a rabble-rouser or a race baiter, but was a refined man who put forward his race's claims for equality with dignity. This is actually the most barbed quote of his I've ever read, and is not typical of his remarks. Maybe you have to be black to be truly pained by the opera. And it's very difficult if not impossible to really separate an opera from its libretto. I think that Wagner purposely kept overt anti-semitism out of his librettos (covert is another matter, once again depending on which critic you read) because he feared it might damage the operas' reputations in posterity. (He is also on record as having wanted his Bayreuth newspaper, the Blatter, to be free of anti-semitism. He seems to have decided, for public outlets, to confine his anti-semitism to its own sphere, and to not have it be an overarching presence coloring everything he did or said.) 

[marvinbrown]

The suggestion that his anti-semtisim helps keep Wagner's name alive I think is mistaken or at best irrelevant. The quality of his music is so strong it would keep him in the repertory no matter what. Indeed, IMO the music does a heroic job of battling to stay above the melodramatic mediocrity of most of his plots, which would have sunk into complete obscurity on their own merits before 1890.

  I agree! The music speaks for itself and has maintained Wagner's reputation as one of the GREATEST if not the GREATEST composer of operas/music dramas there ever was. However the other aspects of Wagner's life have led some people to speculate, and that's all it is speculation, that the music dramas are somehow "tainted"- NONSENSE!

  marvin