The Magic of the Poles

[Maciek]

Curses.
I will download the darn things again and when  get some peace and quiet tonight I will embark on a quest of discovery.  Fair enough, with so many clues going and some of them already solved, I would be surprised if I didn't come up with some after all.

Well, I'm already feeling a bit guilty since they might, after all, turn out a bit more difficult than I am imagining. But let's hope not. And if they do - I'll just expand the clues and make them less vague.

I'm really, really surprised by the complete silence about batch C, though...

[Dundonnell]

From a review of Penderecki's 8th Symphony by Martin Anderson in 'Tempo'-A Quarterly Review of Modern Music(respected British journal edited by Calum(Malcolm) MacDonald):

"Krzysztof Pendrecki's Eight Symphony, a 50-minute orchestral song cycle entitled Lieder der Verganglichkeit('Songs of Transience') received its UK premiere on 28 February 2008(the first performance was in Luxembourg in 2003); the fine soloists were Heidi Grant Murphy(soprano), Agnieska Rehlis(mezzo-soprano) and Roderick Williams(baritone); the BBC Symphony Chorus, also in good voice, and Orchestra were under the baton of its chief conductor Jiri Belohlavek. It has been a while now since anything by Penderecki impressed me as having something new to say, and Lieder der Verganglichkeit was the same self-indulgent post-Mahlerian borscht as he has been
producing over the past two decades or more. The debt to Mahler is immediately audible, with strings pushed high and low, the middle registers conspicuously empty. Dark brass reinforced a predictable sense of gloom: the work sets texts by Goethe, Rilke, Eichendorff and other German poets on man's destructive impact on the environment with the kind of worthy sentimentality typical of the Greenpeace spokespeople on TV news bulletins earnestly foretelling imminent catastrophe. Documenting the detail of the 12 individual songs which make up the score would serve little more purpose than to catalogue Penderecki's continual misjudgements: near-permanent over-scoring, vocal lines written for the parts of the voice where they are bound to fail to project, dramatic gestures undermined because of lack of contrast with the surroundings, inability to generate and sustain harmonic tension, use of the texts as mere hooks for featureless declamation rather than elements with rhythms and colours of their own-I could go on, but there's no point in your being as bored as I was."

Guess he didn't like it then

Penderecki does divide the critics doesn't he and he does inspire some ferocious dislike these days!

[Maciek]

Evaluation of Penderecki's 8th aside (I think it is actually one of his best neo-romantic pieces - and one of the only two I actually enjoy), what really intrigues me is the use of the word borscht as a metaphor for something uninteresting, bland and rather colorless (if I understand the writers intentions correctly)! Now, I could hardly think of a notion more ridiculous than that! There are only two explanations I can think of: 1) the author has never had borscht (any sort of it, as there are at least 3 very different "families" of borscht), has no idea what it is, just picked up the word at random, as one singnifying something vaguely connected with "Polishness" (though it's not really a specifically Polish soup); 2) these are standard English associations (connotations) the word borscht conjures? (As far as I remember, but it's been quite a while since I delved into "language relativity" and semantics, the connotations of the word "soup" are quite, quite varied between languages.)

(BTW, borscht - now that's what I call ridiculous transcription! )

[not edward]

I think it is actually one of his best neo-romantic pieces - and one of the only two I actually enjoy.

Agreed here. Which is the other? For me it would be the sextet.

I also sort of have time for the clarinet quartet, string trio and--because I enjoy its outrageous poor taste--the second symphony.

Random off-topic aside: the bookstore at the university my wife teaches at has two copies of the superb Kofman recording of Lutoslawski's 2nd ... which have been up for sale at $4 for over a year with no takers. 

[Maciek]

For me it would be the Credo. I've never really managed to "get into" Penderecki's chamber pieces - and that includes the first two quartets! With maybe Der Unterbrochene Gedanke as an exception - admirable self-restraint in someone habitually so self-indulgent!

I don't think that Kofman recording ever sold very well...? Maybe it came too late? No one cares about Lutoslawski's 2nd anymore - everyone thinks since it hadn't been done properly up to a certain point, then it probably just can't be done, what's the use trying.




Hm, I'm thinking maybe a decent, detailed post about the various types and tastes of borscht would be in order now...

[Dundonnell]

Confession Time:
as someone who never could get into the music Penderecki wrote prior to around 1980, who found works like the Symphony No.1 or the Threnody to the Victims of Hiroshima too difficult, I do actually like Penderecki's neo-romantic works of the last two decades. The savage critical response to many of these works suggests that the critics actually feel that Penderecki had betrayed them personally as well as betraying his own musical integrity.

So what if the Symphony No.2 sounds Brucknerian? So does Rautavaara's Third Symphony. He doesn't seem to have been torn to pieces for a radical change in musical direction. Frankly, I don't care what the critics thinks!

[Maciek]

By "critics" do you mean professional music critics, or simply people who are critical of Penderecki? Because I don't think they are one and the same group. In fact, I'm under the impression many (most?) critics are enthusiastic about post-1980 Penderecki, no? I mean his career is flourishing, his discs sell, he gets commissions all the time. Somebody has to be fueling all that interest!

[Cato]

I was also disappointed by the Penderecki Eighth, which shows the danger of a composer indulging in the new religion of environmentalism and forgetting that music should not be about political correctness: it needs to be about itself.  This allows atheists to enjoy religious works by  e.g. Bach, Bruckner, etc. while ignoring the story or message.

Having been away for some weeks, I thought at first the topic was about the University of Krakow, where Magic was taught during the Middle Ages.   

[Dundonnell]

By "critics" do you mean professional music critics, or simply people who are critical of Penderecki? Because I don't think they are one and the same group. In fact, I'm under the impression many (most?) critics are enthusiastic about post-1980 Penderecki, no? I mean his career is flourishing, his discs sell, he gets commissions all the time. Somebody has to be fueling all that interest!

I meant the British professional music critics whose reviews of Penderecki's music adorn the pages of the journals that I read. For reasons which are not clear to me the editors of these British journals continually ask hostile critics to review new releases of Penderecki's music. Professor Arnold Whittall of King's College, London, for example, seems to be the person the 'Gramophone' magazine always turns to if there is a new Penderecki disc out. Then we get the same old refrain-"Penderecki has written nothing of value since 1980".

[Maciek]

I was also disappointed by the Penderecki Eighth, which shows the danger of a composer indulging in the new religion of environmentalism and forgetting that music should not be about political correctness: it needs to be about itself.

I don't think that's the case at all! At least not in my experience of the work - but then, I didn't bother with the texts at all (I hardly ever do ). In fact, I'm not even all that certain if I even know what the texts are.

the University of Krakow, where Magic was taught during the Middle Ages.   

Heh, heh. Isn't it still?

I meant the British professional music critics whose reviews of Penderecki's music adorn the pages of the journals that I read. For reasons which are not clear to me the editors of these British journals continually ask hostile critics to review new releases of Penderecki's music.

That's strange. Maybe they think it will make the interviews more "interesting"? And no favoritism!

(Anyway, apparently this varies from country to country.)

Now, speaking of borscht...

[Cato]

On Penderecki's Eighth: I don't think that's the case at all! At least not in my experience of the work - but then, I didn't bother with the texts at all (I hardly ever do ). In fact, I'm not even all that certain if I even know what the texts are.

On Teaching Magic at Krakow's University: Heh, heh. Isn't it still?

(My interpolations above)

Well, even ignoring the themes of the texts, I just found the music too spare and not of much interest.  I will give it a another chance or two.

You might not know about a marvelous award-winning book in English from the 1920's called The Trumpeter of Krakow by Eric Kelly, which gives the dual story of a teenager whose family flees the Tartars and ends up living with an alchemist in Krakow, where the legend of the famous trumpeter hovers over him. 

[Drasko]

(Anyway, apparently this varies from country to country.)

Borscht?

[Maciek]

Well, even ignoring the themes of the texts, I just found the music too spare and not of much interest.  I will give it a another chance or two.

Oh dear! Don't do it in my behalf! I've only listened to the piece about 3 times, on 3 different occasions. I liked it fine, and wouldn't mind returning to it, which is a great improvement over some other Penderecki pieces (I've never managed to listen to all of Gates of Jerusalem or Ubu Rex - I just give up after 20-30 minutes). But if you've heard it, and didn't like it - I don't want to be the one responsible for putting you through all of that again. I mean, if your experience of it was anything like mine of the two other pieces just mentioned, re-listening might turn out unhealthy!

Thanks for the book recommendation. Noted. Now, if only the author's given name was Edward - it would have all been just perfect! But I guess E. Kelly is good enough.

[Maciek]

I'm sure borscht does vary from country to country. In Poland alone we have five BASIC variants: three types of "red" borscht (botwinka, barszcz ukraiński, barszcz czerwony), and two types of "white" (żur, zalewajka)!

EDIT: Oh, and I forgot the so-called "mushroom borscht"!

[Maciek]

Damn, I just visited the Wikipedia borscht page, and they classify chłodnik as a type of borscht (cold borscht)! Now, that makes 7 basic types. And I just realized that żur is not the same thing as barszcz biały - so that makes 3 basic types of white borscht. 8 basic types of borscht in Poland, then.

And the Wikipedia lists lots of variants from other countries (though, as usually with Wikipedia, there's lots of garbage in that entry ).

[Cato]

As promised back in the summer, I did listen to the Penderecki Eighth again, and no, I am not persuaded.  The reviewer from Tempo is right on the mark: I also wondered about the various "basic" mistakes in the scoring.  Was this an experiment in breaking basic rules?

I heard a good part of the Fifth Symphony in a broadcast concert by the Pittsburgh Symphony ( I think) some years ago, and recall being very enthusiastic about it.

Where is the Sixth?   

[greg]

Where is the Sixth?   

Uranus.

[The new erato]

My kind of critic, lol (misrepresentation of beet soup notwitstanding). I think the Quartely Journal has just earned itself a new subscriber. It's editors and I should get along just fine.  Do they also badmouth Shostakovich? If yes, I'll donate a subscription to the neighborhood library 

Martin Anderson is probably my favorite music critic overall, writes well - and unsnobbish, have well considered opinions and a well developes critical apparatus, are open to most music, and seem to share a lot of my enthusiasms. IRRW is worth it for his reviews alone.  

[Dundonnell]

As promised back in the summer, I did listen to the Penderecki Eighth again, and no, I am not persuaded.  The reviewer from Tempo is right on the mark: I also wondered about the various "basic" mistakes in the scoring.  Was this an experiment in breaking basic rules?

I heard a good part of the Fifth Symphony in a broadcast concert by the Pittsburgh Symphony ( I think) some years ago, and recall being very enthusiastic about it.

Where is the Sixth?   

He is still writing No.6 apparently   Agree about No.5!

[Dundonnell]

Martin Anderson is probably my favorite music critic overall, writes well - and unsnobbish, have well considered opinions and a well developes critical apparatus, are open to most music, and seem to share a lot of my enthusiasms. IRRW is worth it for his reviews alone.  

You know that Martin Anderson set up the Toccata label? From my own perspective that label's releases have been a little disappointing. I was expecting more from their catalogue. Only the Tovey releases have really appealed to me although we were promised some R.O. Morris as well.

Glad to see another reader of IRRW Excellent magazine for the discerning reader