What does Beethoven's 9th symphony mean to you?

[71 dB]

Ah, how I miss the old forum... At least there the things were settled once and for all by "G-d" himself: Mendelssohn was the greatest composer ever, period.

Many composers will be declared the greatest one after another before the final truth: Elgar is the greatest.

[dtwilbanks]

Many composers will be declared the greatest one after another before the final truth: Elgar is the greatest.

Do you have the Gramophone magazine with Elgar on the cover, 71dB?

[karlhenning]

Except i'm well aware there are other great composers besides Beethoven, i'm just confident enough about my feelings and what my hears can discern to be able to determine which i consider to be the greater artist.

Well, and since you sensibly make it a matter of your own considerations, there is no argument.  For if you hear more profundity in Beethoven than in Puccini, how can I tell you, "No, you don't"?

Myself, I hear two different manners of rich music, and I really couldn't call one more profound than the other.

[karlhenning]

Many composers will be declared the greatest one after another before the final truth: Elgar is the greatest.

Thanks for the smile, 71 dB! 

[Josquin des Prez]

Thank you for agreeing that, since we cannot quantify what musical profundity is

We cannot qualify it with words, but my gut instinct sure feels very strong about it. 

[dtwilbanks]

We cannot qualify it with words, but my gut instinct sure feels very strong about it. 

Good guts.

[karlhenning]

We cannot qualify it with words, but my gut instinct sure feels very strong about it. 

Use the Force, Josquin 

[karlhenning]

Good guts.

That response was unexpected  0:)

[Mark G. Simon]

To answer the original question, what does Beethoven's 9th mean to me:

It's the only symphony ever written which occupies that universe known as Late Beethoven, and that alone is enough to insure it a unique place in the symphonic repertory. Yes, I've heard it thousands of times, but it's still a profound spiritual experience somehow, especially the adagio, and the vocal quartet at meas. 832 in the last movement.  

[Josquin des Prez]

That response was unexpected  0:)

Well, it's a well known fact Beethoven had really bad guts. Maybe it's just envy... 

[71 dB]

Precisely what i sensed Michel was getting at. Sorry for being crass, but you have to be out of your mind to truly believe that filth. Conspiracy theorists are so much fun.

There is no conspiracy. Free thinkers only try to correct twisted writing of history. Beethoven has nothing to worry about, he will always be one of the greatest.

Except i'm well aware there are other great composers besides Beethoven, i'm just confident enough about my feelings and what my hears can discern to be able to determine which i consider to be the greater artist. Why do you think that would prevent me from enjoying the music of other composers is beyond me.

It's good you enjoy Beethoven (just like I enjoy many of his works) and other composers but don't let that blind you from seeing how history has raisen some composer to a divine pedestal not fully explained by their music. This happens everyday. It's human nature. If someone is 1 % better than someone else he/she is a god and others are losers. This does not make any sense but we are so used to it we don't even see it.

[71 dB]

Do you have the Gramophone magazine with Elgar on the cover, 71dB?

No, unfortunately.

Thanks for the smile, 71 dB! 

You're welcome karl!

[Larry Rinkel]

You can't see it yourself but you have brainwashed yourself to think that way. You have teached yourself that Beethoven defines what is profound without realising there could be any other great composer instead of Beethoven. Beethoven is one of the greatest but he IS also overrated.

Then I will continue overrating him, for the simple and frank reason that after some 45 years of hearing, playing, and studying his greatest works I remain continually flabbergasted by the degree of musical genius shown therein. None of which means I don't recognize flaws and awkwardnesses in some of Beethoven, or that I don't value many other composers very highly as well. But as far as I'm concerned, an unwillingness to recognize Beethoven as being very close to the summit of Western music tells me more about the person making that statement about Beethoven himself. As you can learn if you read Scott Burnham's seminal study "Beethoven Hero," Beethoven's importance goes beyond his musical works in themselves; to a large degree Beethoven has come to stand for Western concepts of what music actually is.

[Josquin des Prez]

Free thinkers only try to correct twisted writing of history.

I think they call that revisionism. It must be nice to rewrite history based on your own biases to substitute perceived biases. 

It's good you enjoy Beethoven (just like I enjoy many of his works) and other composers but don't let that blind you from seeing how history has raisen some composer to a divine pedestal not fully explained by their music.

It's good see you talk as if that's an absolute certainty. Maybe the reason those composers have been raised to a divine pedestal is self evident, and you just can't see it. Ever thought of that?

This happens everyday. It's human nature. If someone is 1 % better than someone else he/she is a god and others are losers. This does not make any sense but we are so used to it we don't even see it.

Makes perfect sense to me. If somebody is better then the rest (whether objectively or subjectively), why should i bother with the others? The whole point of listening to music is to enjoy it. If some artist wrote music which i enjoy more then the rest, it's only natural i'm going to focus on that artist above everybody else.

[Michel]

When did I say profundity is not something good? I am just questioning whether it is "the best", in sync with my logic throughout this thread.

I have nothing else to add to Karl's points, which I believe yet to be refuted.

[karlhenning]

Free thinkers only try to correct twisted writing of history.

I have now to thank you not for a smile only, but for a hearty laugh! 

[karlhenning]

Then I will continue overrating him, for the simple and frank reason that after some 45 years of hearing, playing, and studying his greatest works I remain continually flabbergasted by the degree of musical genius shown therein. None of which means I don't recognize flaws and awkwardnesses in some of Beethoven, or that I don't value many other composers very highly as well. But as far as I'm concerned, an unwillingness to recognize Beethoven as being very close to the summit of Western music tells me more about the person making that statement about Beethoven himself. As you can learn if you read Scott Burnham's seminal study "Beethoven Hero," Beethoven's importance goes beyond his musical works in themselves; to a large degree Beethoven has come to stand for Western concepts of what music actually is.

Excellent post, Larry.

[dtwilbanks]

No, unfortunately.

It's quite recent. I'd mail it to you, but you're, like, in Finland, dude. 

[Don]

When did I say profundity is not something good? I am just questioning whether it is "the best", in sync with my logic throughout this thread.

I have nothing else to add to Karl's points, which I believe yet to be refuted.

That's it then.  Karl wins the championship series and gets to pick the musical program for the grand feast tonight.  Anyone looking forward to Wuorinen?

[dtwilbanks]

That's it then.  Karl wins the championship series and gets to pick the musical program for the grand feast tonight.  Anyone looking forward to Wuorinen?