Brahms' Fourth, Allegro non troppo

[Halcyone]

I've been pretty obsessed with the first movement of this piece for a few years now. I love the way the harmonic motion takes so many unexpected, satisfying turns (from what I've read, the thing I'm talking about is Brahms' linkage technique). I love the way he recontextualizes the various themes so thoroughly in the various sections. I would love a recommendation of something else along these lines. I realize that what I've said is completely vague if you just read what I've written, so think about what the music sounds like to you rather than trying to prescribe something according to my babbling.

If it helps, other favorite composers of mine are Ravel, Rautavaara, Feldman, early Stravinsky, Murail, Purcell, Ives, Satie, and anything else that sounds particularly lush or harmonically rich to my ears. I do not particularly like things that I find predictable and lifeless, such as Schumann/Mendelssohn/Mozart, and a lot of the others that would usually go in the same sentence as Brahms. Feel free to suggest them anyway, as it's great to be proven wrong, but if you really have to say something about

Thanks!

(Man, what a jerky first post. Sorry 'bout that.)

[hornteacher]

Try Dvorak's 7th.  Its very much in the style of Brahms (who was a close friend of Dvorak), and has a lot of beautiful passages along with some harmonic surprises.

[BachQ]

Bruckner 6,7,8,9
Mahler

[mn dave]

I've been pretty obsessed with the first movement of this piece for a few years now.

I think it's a lovely first post, mainly because I am obsessed with the same movement! A highlight of symhony in my opinion.

[Halcyone]

Try Dvorak's 7th.

Bruckner 6,7,8,9

I forgot to mention--would you mind recommending particular recordings as well? Especially for famous pieces like these. It'll have to be especially good in Dvořák's case, as I haven't much cared for him in the past, either!

[Kullervo]

I do not particularly like things that I find predictable and lifeless, such as Schumann [...]

Well, nobody's perfect. Schumann can be extremely uneven. Which pieces have you heard?

[jochanaan]

I forgot to mention--would you mind recommending particular recordings as well? Especially for famous pieces like these. It'll have to be especially good in Dvořák's case, as I haven't much cared for him in the past, either!

There's an early '90s recording of Dvorak 7 by Wolfgang Sawallisch and the Philadelphia Orchestra that's as good as they come.

[Brian]

I think it's a lovely first post, mainly because I am obsessed with the same movement! A highlight of symhony in my opinion.

Other highlights include the entire second movement, the entire third movement, and the entire fourth movement. 

Honestly, I really think there is nothing else quite like this movement - it's an absolute original. The Dvorak Seventh might be similar, and indeed for the following comments:

I love the way the harmonic motion takes so many unexpected, satisfying turns (from what I've read, the thing I'm talking about is Brahms' linkage technique). and especially: I love the way he recontextualizes the various themes so thoroughly in the various sections.

...apply greatly to much of Dvorak's music, especially the first movement of the Seventh (but also the Cello Concerto, last two symphonies, and, yes, even the much-maligned Symphony No 2). My first recording of that symphony was Bernstein's with the New York Philharmonic, and I recommend it heartily: slower than most takes, which enables Bernstein to fully flesh out all the twists and turns and intricate details. That recording is the one in which I hear "new things" most, even now, primarily very subtle appearances of the main motifs which I had never noticed before. Great "thinking" music. It also has an unbelievable performance of the finale. 

[op.110]

I would first get a Brahms Symphony Cycle.

Do you like the fourth movement of his fourth? One of my my favorite chaconnes, for sure.

Try the first movement of Brahms' 2nd; I personally don't think the 2nd symphony as a whole holds up against his first and fourth symphonies, but that first movement of the 2nd is an incredible piece of work.

Try Dvorak Symphony No. 8 in G major (though because of publishing, some title the G major as the 7th).

For sharp contrast, Beethoven's 9th, then Brahms' 1st symphonies (I think you'll enjoy the fourth movement of Brahms' first symphony).

[hornteacher]

I forgot to mention--would you mind recommending particular recordings as well? Especially for famous pieces like these. It'll have to be especially good in Dvo?ák's case, as I haven't much cared for him in the past, either!

Levine with the Chicago Symphony has a great 7th.  The New World is also on the CD which is not my favorite version but is also good.

[Brian]

Levine with the Chicago Symphony has a great 7th.  The New World is also on the CD which is not my favorite version but is also good.

Incidentally, hornteacher, I finally got Mackerras' Dvorak 8+9 and it is indeed extraordinary. Fabulous! Were it not for Otmar Suitner's unique Eighth, that disc would be my favorite performance for both works.  0:)

[hornteacher]

Incidentally, hornteacher, I finally got Mackerras' Dvorak 8+9 and it is indeed extraordinary. Fabulous! Were it not for Otmar Suitner's unique Eighth, that disc would be my favorite performance for both works.  0:)

Glad you enjoyed it.  Its going with me to my desert island.

[Brian]

Glad you enjoyed it.  Its going with me to my desert island.

Probably mine too, though if I could only take one disc to that desert island it would be ... Brahms' Fourth    [Kleiber/VPO]

[hornteacher]

Probably mine too, though if I could only take one disc to that desert island it would be ... Brahms' Fourth    [Kleiber/VPO]

Also a good choice.  I've really gotten into Brahms 4th a lot more recently.  I'm doing a score study on the 30 variations in the last movement.  Great stuff.

[jochanaan]

I should say that I've played in the orchestra for Brahms' First and Second Symphonies, Double Concerto, and German Requiem.  His music is not easy to pull together, but very gratifying for every section.

[MahlerSnob]

You might look into late Beethoven, particularly the Fourth Piano Concerto which is a personal favorite of mine. The first movement is really wild harmonically. You might have already explored Debussy, but you didn't mention him in your list of other favorite composers. He's another composer of great, ambiguous, impressionist music. However, Debussy's music is based more in modal harmony than tonal harmony so the ambiguities in his music are different from those in Brahms, et al. Also, the king of harmonic and motivic invention is still Wagner. I'd recommend starting with the orchestral excerpts from the operas (Preludes to Parsifal and Tristan, Seigfried's Rhine Journey, the Overtures, etc.), before taking the plunge into the complete operas.

[Monsieur Croche]

Incidentally, hornteacher, I finally got Mackerras' Dvorak 8+9 and it is indeed extraordinary. Fabulous! Were it not for Otmar Suitner's unique Eighth, that disc would be my favorite performance for both works.  0:)

I prefer Kubelik. No, never heard Otmar Suitner's interpretation.

[Mark G. Simon]

I think if you study Mendelssohn, Schumann and Mozart a little more deeply you'll find the characterization of "predictable and lifeless" just doesn't hold up. What a world of discovery you have waiting for you!

But I agree that Brahms 4 is just about the most perfect symphony ever written, for the reasons you state, and more. Leonard Bernstein has an excellent analysis for the layman on the first movement of this symphony in his book The Infinite Variety of Music, which impressed me greatly when I was first becoming interested in classical music because it illustrates how tight a web can be woven from the most basic musical materials.

[eyeresist]

I think if you study Mendelssohn, Schumann and Mozart a little more deeply you'll find the characterization of "predictable and lifeless" just doesn't hold up. What a world of discovery you have waiting for you!

I think I might have to partly agree with the OP here. Schumann's symphonies I generally find tedious (except some parts of the Rhenish), and much of Mozart is well made but frankly inane. Mendelssohn symphonies 3 and 4 are fine, but 2 is dreary. I did enjoy his string symphonies, but haven't heard them for a few years.

But I love Brahms 4. His passacaglia finale is possibly my favourite movement of any piece of music, ever!

BTW, the 4th was probably the highlight of Norrington's recent cycle on DVD, and featured a particularly lovely flute solo in the finale.

[Kullervo]

I think I might have to partly agree with the OP here. Schumann's symphonies I generally find tedious (except some parts of the Rhenish), and much of Mozart is well made but frankly inane.

I'm sure Mozart's ghost is wishing he added a few Mystic chords and Xenakis glissandi into the clarinet quintet right about now.