Brahms' Fourth, Allegro non troppo

[Bonehelm]

I think I might have to partly agree with the OP here. Schumann's symphonies I generally find tedious (except some parts of the Rhenish), and much of Mozart is well made but frankly inane. Mendelssohn symphonies 3 and 4 are fine, but 2 is dreary. I did enjoy his string symphonies, but haven't heard them for a few years.

But I love Brahms 4. His passacaglia finale is possibly my favourite movement of any piece of music, ever!

BTW, the 4th was probably the highlight of Norrington's recent cycle on DVD, and featured a particularly lovely flute solo in the finale.

Mozart inane? Are you insane?

[Mark G. Simon]

I think I might have to partly agree with the OP here. Schumann's symphonies I generally find tedious (except some parts of the Rhenish), and much of Mozart is well made but frankly inane. Mendelssohn symphonies 3 and 4 are fine, but 2 is dreary. I did enjoy his string symphonies, but haven't heard them for a few years.

You have a world of discovery in front of you as well.

[karlhenning]

. . . [Mendelssohn] . . . but 2 is dreary.

Oh, I don't think so.

[jochanaan]

Oh, I don't think so.

Nor do I.  In fact, although I'm not Saul, I've never yet heard anything by Mendelssohn that I could possibly describe as "dreary."

[eyeresist]

Since my previous post I've had that stupid motif from the 2nd stuck in my head all weekend, and my opinion remains unchanged!

[greg]

But I agree that Brahms 4 is just about the most perfect symphony ever written, for the reasons you state, and more. Leonard Bernstein has an excellent analysis for the layman on the first movement of this symphony in his book The Infinite Variety of Music, which impressed me greatly when I was first becoming interested in classical music because it illustrates how tight a web can be woven from the most basic musical materials.

I've read that. I like how he shows how Brahms does have ideas, tons of them, instead of "composing a symphony without ideas", like how he was accused.

The opening pages of the symphony are quite something to study. You pretty much don't have much of a melody for a while, just little figures floating around with very interesting, hypnotic, but not far from normal, harmonic progressions- really caught my attention on first listening.


Halcyone, have you listened to the Brahms Paganini Variations? Mystic-sounding stuff there as well, although it does repeatedly cover the same chord progressions. That's the only thing close to that sound i can think of at the moment; i'm not sure about recommending Bruckner or Mahler.

[scarpia]

The opening pages of the symphony are quite something to study. You pretty much don't have much of a melody for a while, just little figures floating around with very interesting, hypnotic, but not far from normal, harmonic progressions- really caught my attention on first listening.

I don't know what to make of this silly statement.  Brahms 4 opens with the main melody of the movement stated in unison by first and second violins, starting in the first bar.  It is rather spare, not really a singing cantabile, but similar melodies, emphasizing motifs that are subsequently developed, are often used in the opening of a symphony, such as Brahms 2, Brahms 3, Beethoven 5, Beethoven 9, Beethoven 3, Mozart 39, and many others.

[greg]

I don't know what to make of this silly statement.  Brahms 4 opens with the main melody of the movement stated in unison by first and second violins, starting in the first bar.  It is rather spare, not really a singing cantabile, but similar melodies, emphasizing motifs that are subsequently developed, are often used in the opening of a symphony, such as Brahms 2, Brahms 3, Beethoven 5, Beethoven 9, Beethoven 3, Mozart 39, and many others.

It's a melody, but not typically melodic. It's not nearly as melodic as the opening of Brahms 2nd or 3rd, which sets it apart. Actually, the short figures are more of a Haydn thing, but of course with very different harmonic progressions.

[PerfectWagnerite]

It's a melody, but not typically melodic. It's not nearly as melodic as the opening of Brahms 2nd or 3rd, which sets it apart.

You don't think this is a melody? Check out starting at measure 57 in the cello and then picked up by the violins in measure 65. A big soaring melody if there ever was one:





The opening of the 3rd symphony isn't the most melodic of things if you ask me.

[jochanaan]

You don't think this is a melody? Check out starting at measure 57 in the cello and then picked up by the violins in measure 65...

But that's some distance in from the opening...

[PerfectWagnerite]

But that's some distance in from the opening...

Well page 9 in the score is still "the opening pages" I think, or better yet it is still the exposition which technically is the beginning of a sonata form movement

[rappy]

The opening of the 3rd symphony isn't the most melodic of things if you ask me.

I consider this one of the most striking melodies ever written.

[scarpia]

It's a melody, but not typically melodic. It's not nearly as melodic as the opening of Brahms 2nd or 3rd, which sets it apart. Actually, the short figures are more of a Haydn thing, but of course with very different harmonic progressions.

It's a melody but not a typical melody?  What does that even mean?  It is the first and second violins playing in octaves over an arpeggio accompaniment in low strings with winds playing a slowly shifting chordal accompaniment.  Then the entire melody is literally repeated with some ornamentation (parallel octaves replaced with octave jumps) and the reeds playing a flowing accompaniment.  The same melody, played forte instead of piano, is the basis of the coda.  This is not an assortment of motifs that gets tossed around (although phrases from it do undergo typical symphonic development) it is a melody that is repeated intact at critical moments in the development of the movement.   If anything the opening of the 4th is more overtly melodic than the typical symphonic allegro.  What you're saying makes no sense to me whatsoever. 

[greg]

It's a melody but not a typical melody?  What does that even mean?  It is the first and second violins playing in octaves over an arpeggio accompaniment in low strings with winds playing a slowly shifting chordal accompaniment.  Then the entire melody is literally repeated with some ornamentation (parallel octaves replaced with octave jumps) and the reeds playing a flowing accompaniment.  The same melody, played forte instead of piano, is the basis of the coda.  This is not an assortment of motifs that gets tossed around (although phrases from it do undergo typical symphonic development) it is a melody that is repeated intact at critical moments in the development of the movement.   If anything the opening of the 4th is more overtly melodic than the typical symphonic allegro.  What you're saying makes no sense to me whatsoever. 

wtf lol
i just meant to say that it's not the most typical-sounding opening melody out there. There's not many opening melodies I can think of that use a pattern of only two notes rest two notes, so on for the first 8 measures. It's not a cantabile Brahms opening like his other 3 symphonies, and it doesn't sound like Haydn, either, so that's what makes it interesting.

[Mark G. Simon]

It's a very prototypical Brahms theme, built as it is on a succession of falling thirds (with octave transpositions): B, G, E, C, A, F#, D#, B.
You can see it in the finale too, in the offbeat pizzicato strings at meas. 233 (E, C, A, F#, D#, B, etc.), and it also occurs in the Clarinet Trio op. 114, and many other works. It even appears in the finale of the First Symphony, at meas. 257 (G, E, C, Ab, F, D, B, G), with the notes in pairs, just as in the 4th symphony.

[Brian]

wtf lol
i just meant to say that it's not the most typical-sounding opening melody out there. There's not many opening melodies I can think of that use a pattern of only two notes rest two notes, so on for the first 8 measures. It's not a cantabile Brahms opening like his other 3 symphonies, and it doesn't sound like Haydn, either, so that's what makes it interesting.

The Brahms Four has an awfully striking entrance - as one critic said, it is like a great dramatic tragedy, and that you can tell its ending will be unhappy right from the first sentence. It's the downright odd accompaniment to that very opening melody that always makes me feel off-balance...

EDIT: Please forgive me for the downright childish contribution. It took me long enough to figure out which passage the sheet music PW posted came from... 

[(poco) Sforzando]

It's a very prototypical Brahms theme, built as it is on a succession of falling thirds (with octave transpositions): B, G, E, C, A, F#, D#, B.
You can see it in the finale too, in the offbeat pizzicato strings at meas. 233 (E, C, A, F#, D#, B, etc.), and it also occurs in the Clarinet Trio op. 114, and many other works. It even appears in the finale of the First Symphony, at meas. 257 (G, E, C, Ab, F, D, B, G), with the notes in pairs, just as in the 4th symphony.

That may well be, but I have always been struck by how strongly the opening theme of the Fourth resembles this passage from the slow movement of Beethoven's Hammerklavier (another work in which falling thirds are typical, and which Brahms undoubtedly knew and greatly admired, as the opening movement of his piano sonata in C, op. 1, is directly modeled on the opening of the Hammerklavier).

[Mark G. Simon]

That may well be, but I have always been struck by how strongly the opening theme of the Fourth resembles this passage from the slow movement of Beethoven's Hammerklavier (another work in which falling thirds are typical, and which Brahms undoubtedly knew and greatly admired, as the opening movement of his piano sonata in C, op. 1, is directly modeled on the opening of the Hammerklavier).

This hardly negates what I said. Wherever he got it from, he made it his own.

[greg]

That may well be, but I have always been struck by how strongly the opening theme of the Fourth resembles this passage from the slow movement of Beethoven's Hammerklavier (another work in which falling thirds are typical, and which Brahms undoubtedly knew and greatly admired, as the opening movement of his piano sonata in C, op. 1, is directly modeled on the opening of the Hammerklavier).

I'll have to check out that sonata eventually. Btw, did he just change the key signature from C min. to C maj. but write in F# maj. in the C maj. section? 

[(poco) Sforzando]

This hardly negates what I said.

Never said it did.