The Chat Thread

[knight66]

It depends on who you're going to bed with each night.

Why DAVID.......really!

Mike

[Brian]

It depends on who you're going to bed with each night.

Um... that's not gonna make me feel better about it 

[eyeresist]

Very good!

Yes, I'm very proud of myself

As I always say of frightening events, "It was an experience." Of particular interest was the weird separation from the whole thing I felt after a while. Lying on your back staring at fluorescents for hours on end does much to make the prospect of death seem unreal or insignificant. Perhaps, one day, the process of dying will be alleviated by the novelty of the experience?

[ibanezmonster]

Lying on your back staring at fluorescents for hours on end does much to make the prospect of death seem unreal or insignificant.

Interesting...

[Opus106]

The University of Florida announced this past week that it was dropping its computer science department, which will allow it to save about $1.7 million.  The school is eliminating all funding for teaching assistants in computer science, cutting the graduate and research programs entirely, and moving the tattered remnants into other departments.

[Source]

(Anime) Greg, is this where you were planning to attend classes a year ago (or perhaps someone here suggested that you do)?

[DavidW]

That is outrageous Navneeth!  Either the administration has their heads up their asses or they are deeply in the red.  Either way the university is clearly being mismanaged.

Well Greg if you were choosing between Florida State and University of Florida this news should help greatly!

[Lethevich]

If it wasn't taught in the 19th century, it's unproven in this current financial climate...

[ibanezmonster]

[Source]

(Anime) Greg, is this where you were planning to attend classes a year ago (or perhaps someone here suggested that you do)?

Actually, I was planning on attending UCF, so I didn't have to move. UCF actually has a Bachelor's for Software Development, but that's a school known for dropping courses, as well, so I don't completely trust them, either.

Someone here did recommend me to go to UF for computer science (this was about a year or two ago). If I had to move for school, I would need some extra loan money to survive (meanwhile, the interest rate is going to double on loans, now) because it's near impossible to make a living wage while going to school (or before going to school lol). Of course, I could have possibly gotten a programming job if the world economy didn't decide to collapse the second I started my programming certificate course. The only reason I'm back in school is because employers only bother to contact you if you have this piece of paper (a degree); skills don't matter. They are probably like that because after the world economy collapsed, there are too many applicants for too little jobs.

[Karl Henning]

Too few jobs were better (just saying).

[Opus106]

The only reason I'm back in school is because employers only bother to contact you if you have this piece of paper (a degree); skills don't matter.

I came across this about a week or two ago...

We are looking for talented individuals with or without a formal education or experience.

And guess who is the employer?

Of course, for that you'd have to move to a place which is a little farther than a different part of the state.

[DavidW]

The only reason I'm back in school is because employers only bother to contact you if you have this piece of paper (a degree); skills don't matter. They are probably like that because after the world economy collapsed, there are too many applicants for too little jobs.

That is both true and not true at the same time.  You need the degree to land the interview, but you need the skills from job experience to land the job.  You need both.  Skills do matter, they really do.  But college degrees are pretty much mandatory these days to find a worthwhile career.  There are exceptions (like my brother-in-law who has been making his way up the corporate ladder at a large bank) but in general you need the degree.  But if you think that companies don't care about your skill set, you're dead wrong.

Studying computer science will set you apart from a code monkey, you will have a formal training in how to understand and manipulate the underlying structures on a more abstract level, and understand design better than just patching code per line.  It's not just a piece of paper.

[Karl Henning]

Skills do matter, they really do.

Testify, Davey!

[ibanezmonster]

I came across this about a week or two ago...

And guess who is the employer?

Of course, for that you'd have to move to a place which is a little farther than a different part of the state.

The link is dead, so I have no idea. Well, I've never seen that, so I'm interested to know.

That is both true and not true at the same time.  You need the degree to land the interview, but you need the skills from job experience to land the job.  You need both.  Skills do matter, they really do.  But college degrees are pretty much mandatory these days to find a worthwhile career.  There are exceptions (like my brother-in-law who has been making his way up the corporate ladder at a large bank) but in general you need the degree.  But if you think that companies don't care about your skill set, you're dead wrong.

Yes, exactly. Not only do you need the degree, but you need job experience to get a job. So it's even worse than I just mentioned.
If UCF still offers internships, then good... otherwise, the only option is to volunteer for a year, somehow... but what I meant was that skills do matter, but only among people with degrees. If they don't see a degree on the application, it's not even considered.

Studying computer science will set you apart from a code monkey, you will have a formal training in how to understand and manipulate the underlying structures on a more abstract level, and understand design better than just patching code per line.  It's not just a piece of paper.

And books teach this. Honestly, so far, with all of the computer classes I've taken, I could have taught myself all of that just by learning from books. The professors are helpful, but there is so much information through books and the internet, they become almost unnecessary. It's comparable to music; just get the scores, music theory books, and internet resources, and figure it out. Some people need teachers, but some don't, and society doesn't distinguish between those types of people. Neither one is better than the other, but  most people think you need a teacher to learn anything at all, and that's just silly.

[Opus106]

The link is dead, so I have no idea. Well, I've never seen that, so I'm interested to know.

Sorry about that. http://www.mediafire.com/about/jobs.php

[Opus106]

And books teach this. Honestly, so far, with all of the computer classes I've taken, I could have taught myself all of that just by learning from books. The professors are helpful, but there is so much information through books and the internet, they become almost unnecessary. It's comparable to music; just get the scores, music theory books, and internet resources, and figure it out. Some people need teachers, but some don't, and society doesn't distinguish between those types of people. Neither one is better than the other, but  most people think you need a teacher to learn anything at all, and that's just silly.

The issue is not quite cut and dried or so simplistic, Greg. True, a really good teacher can be hard to come by, but if you do land up at a place where you can get in touch with one, there can be nothing better. Here is a person with the technical expertise and at the same time the experience of teaching students like you (a variety of them) every year. Neither a textbook nor the Web can actually gauge your what you've learnt or how well. It cannot set exercises that will suit you, and make you realise where you've gone wrong.

[DavidW]

Greg there are few that can teach themselves from a book.  Those of us with the patience and perseverance can conquer the world!

But there is something missing from just books that you do have in college... community.  People to help each other out, and to learn things not written in textbooks.  Discussions that broaden both depth and understanding.  And being a part of something... you'll never feel that studying in isolation.

And of course everything that Navneeth said, which is awesome and true.

[ibanezmonster]

Sorry about that. http://www.mediafire.com/about/jobs.php

Cool, thanks for the link. 

[Philoctetes]

For me, at least, the degree proves that you have the ability to persevere, which is a quality I think most jobs value. Simply having the knowledge doesn't prove that you possess that attribute. Same thing applies to why most schools deem it necessary to take the GRE/GMAT/etc. to become an entrant for Graduate school, only those who really want will find the time investment worthwhile.

[ibanezmonster]

Now that I think about it, it may actually be a good thing UF dropped their computer science program. The possibility is that that will create more demand for UCF, ensuring that they keep their Software Development degree program. Also, since UF is the only decently rated university in Florida, no one in-state will have a major advantage over me in coming from a renowned university vs. an average university.

For me, at least, the degree proves that you have the ability to persevere, which is a quality I think most jobs value. Simply having the knowledge doesn't prove that you possess that attribute. Same thing applies to why most schools deem it necessary to take the GRE/GMAT/etc. to become an entrant for Graduate school, only those who really want will find the time investment worthwhile.

Well, for you, that's cool.
When I hear employers using that reason for hiring selection (that university is for showing you have the ability to persevere), it's just another way to weed through the thousands of applicants. The bottom line is that the world needs way more low-wage service jobs that high-skilled jobs; since there are fewer of those jobs available, the ratio of applicants to jobs probably tends to be a bit higher. If I put on my resume how I taught myself my hobbies and stuck with them for years, they wouldn't think much of it. Of course I can persevere and stick with things; just having to prove that to someone is insane. 

Greg there are few that can teach themselves from a book.  Those of us with the patience and perseverance can conquer the world!

But there is something missing from just books that you do have in college... community.  People to help each other out, and to learn things not written in textbooks.  Discussions that broaden both depth and understanding.  And being a part of something... you'll never feel that studying in isolation.

And of course everything that Navneeth said, which is awesome and true.

Friends are great... "community"... meh, depends so much on everything.

The issue is not quite cut and dried or so simplistic, Greg. True, a really good teacher can be hard to come by, but if you do land up at a place where you can get in touch with one, there can be nothing better. Here is a person with the technical expertise and at the same time the experience of teaching students like you (a variety of them) every year. Neither a textbook nor the Web can actually gauge your what you've learnt or how well. It cannot set exercises that will suit you, and make you realize where you've gone wrong.

My teachers have been pretty good, but idk, there might be much better out there, as you say.

Another issue I would like to point it with university education vs. self-studying is that university education can be limited. While teaching myself how to write Winsock IOCP servers, I read about how the universities some people went to never covered that, and it looks like UCF doesn't, either. Although it is a rare skill (there's only a couple of books on the market that even cover the topic, and barely anything on the internet), this means education wouldn't be complete. If I didn't have to work, I'd spend my time learning almost every type of programming skill, which would cover more than what school could cover. I would be surprised if, for example, UCF had classes in Lua or TCL (maybe the top universities are different?).


(one more thing... too many British people on the internet. I spelled 'realize' like 'realise'!) 

[Philoctetes]

Personally, I wouldn't hire you because you sound a bit like a self-entitled whiner.