The Chat Thread

[PaulR]

My first comprehensive exam is on Friday........and I am just not ready.....

[Florestan]

Did you read also the part of my post that you left out of the quotation?

I did but leaves burning being potentially harmful to health (and only speculatively so) still doesn't seem to me a good reason for forbidding it. Drinking in excess is much more dangerous to health than burning leaves yet Finns are notorious in this respect. Why is it allowed then? 

E: And there's also the risk of grass fire.

That's an admittedly better reason than the other.

[North Star]

I did but leaves burning being potentially harmful to health (and only speculatively so) still doesn't seem to me a good reason for forbidding it. Drinking in excess is much more dangerous to health than burning leaves yet Finns are notorious in this respect. Why is it allowed then? 
That's an admittedly better reason than the other.

Uh.... Fact: burning organic material at low temperatures releases toxic fumes into the atmosphere, and this affects everyone's health, and much more dramatically than drinking, if enough people burn their leaves. And it's pretty hard to tax the leaf burners like alcohol users. And, unlike with alcohol, burning small quantities might actually be worse. Imagine everyone burning 10 litres of leaves, vs everyone drinking a pint of beer.
Even normal fireplace use in Oulu statistically kills a couple of persons per year - and this is caused by a lot less harmful particles.

[Corey]

Is burning leaves allowed where you live? It was made illegal in my neck of the woods many years ago. I miss the smell.

I would assume in the city it would be illegal. Where I lived in Florida I'm pretty sure there's a ban, but it's almost never enforced.

Uh.... Fact: burning organic material at low temperatures releases toxic fumes into the atmosphere, and this affects everyone's health, and much more dramatically than drinking, if enough people burn their leaves. And it's pretty hard to tax the leaf burners like alcohol users. And, unlike with alcohol, burning small quantities might actually be worse. Imagine everyone burning 10 litres of leaves, vs everyone drinking a pint of beer.
Even normal fireplace use in Oulu statistically kills a couple of persons per year - and this is caused by a lot less harmful particles.

The nice smell seems much more insidious now.

[Florestan]

Uh.... Fact: burning organic material at low temperatures releases toxic fumes into the atmosphere, and this affects everyone's health, and much more dramatically than drinking, if enough people burn their leaves.

I suppose then that burning leaves in winter was a national sport in Finland resulting in so many deaths that the government felt its duty to forbid it once and for all.

Even normal fireplace use in Oulu statistically kills a couple of persons per year - and this is caused by a lot less harmful particles.

Well, ban fireplaces too. 

[North Star]

I suppose then that burning leaves in winter was a national sport in Finland resulting in so many deaths that the government felt its duty to forbid it once and for all.
Well, ban fireplaces too.

I'm not saying fireplaces should be banned. I'm just saying that even they are dangerous in a city (imagine if some metropolis generated its heat from small fireplaces - that would probably kill thousands, if not tens of thousands, every year).

[Florestan]

I'm not saying fireplaces should be banned. I'm just saying that even they are dangerous in a city  (imagine if some metropolis generated its heat from small fireplaces - that would probably kill thousands, if not tens of thousands, every year).

In a metropolis even leaving one's home is dangerous but I strongly doubt that the business of the government is to protect people from each and every risk imaginable.

[North Star]

In a metropolis even leaving one's home is dangerous but I strongly doubt that the business of the government is to protect people from each and every risk imaginable.

OK.

[mc ukrneal]

In a metropolis even leaving one's home is dangerous but I strongly doubt that the business of the government is to protect people from each and every risk imaginable.

Personally, this is a pet peeve of mine. In Eastern Europe, my experience is that they burn things they should not and do not need to burn. The leaves and other organic matter can be used organically instead of burning. Even in cities, these smells are noticeable and why should someone else be able to burn something that I then have to breathe in and smell?

[Florestan]

Personally, this is a pet peeve of mine. In Eastern Europe, my experience is that they burn things they should not and do not need to burn. The leaves and other organic matter can be used organically instead of burning. Even in cities, these smells are noticeable and why should someone else be able to burn something that I then have to breathe in and smell?

Just to be clear: I concede it is a stupid custom and I hate the smell of it especially in the city but forbidding it by a positive law has more drawbacks than advantages, at least in Eastern Europe. First, nobody (or very few) will ever care to obey such a law --- and thus the habit of ignoring a law perceived as useless will soon spread to other laws, much more useful and necessary. Second, if the government is strong enough to be able to enforce such a law then this in itself is a big problem because this means ubiquitous hordes of spies and policemen will be employed in the process --- and in our neck of the woods we have well-grounded reasons to deeply distrust such an arrangement, be it made for the best of causes.

[mc ukrneal]

Just to be clear: I concede it is a stupid custom and I hate the smell of it especially in the city but forbidding it by a positive law has more drawbacks than advantages, at least in Eastern Europe. First, nobody (or very few) will ever care to obey such a law --- and thus the habit of ignoring a law perceived as useless will soon spread to other laws, much more useful and necessary. Second, if the government is strong enough to be able to enforce such a law then this in itself is a big problem because this means ubiquitous hordes of spies and policemen will be employed in the process --- and in our neck of the woods we have well-grounded reasons to deeply distrust such an arrangement, be it made for the best of causes.

Well, I would agree that the first step is to teach and explain. They are just doing what they have been doing for generations. But ultimately, I would support fines or other actions to stop it. It should be a progressive plan though that will certainly take years. But it also needs to eventually have teeth, though I understand the enforcement problems (where the fire marshall is usually someone to be avoided if possible).

[Florestan]

Well, I would agree that the first step is to teach and explain. They are just doing what they have been doing for generations. But ultimately, I would support fines or other actions to stop it. It should be a progressive plan though that will certainly take years. But it also needs to eventually have teeth, though I understand the enforcement problems (where the fire marshall is usually someone to be avoided if possible).

FWIW, without any legislation or fines (or at least none that I am aware of*) leaves-burning in Bucharest seems to be a thing of the past. I haven't seen any such fire for more than 2 years.

* Truth is, there are literally thousands of laws and I'm sure that not even the most competent lawyer or judge is aware of them all; and as we know from the ancient Greeks, the more laws there are, the more corrupt the state is. 

[Szykneij]

I honestly thought that burning leaves was banned where I live because of safety concerns, but a check of the Massachusetts government website says this:

What types of open burning are not allowed?

There are no circumstances under which it is legal to burn grass, hay, leaves, stumps or tires. They simply do not burn as "cleanly" as those materials that may legally be burned. All of them produce acrid smoke that causes nuisance conditions and threatens people's health  ...

In addition, the burning of brush, cane, driftwood and forestry debris from commercial or industrial land clearing is prohibited statewide.

[North Star]

Just to be clear: I concede it is a stupid custom and I hate the smell of it especially in the city but forbidding it by a positive law has more drawbacks than advantages, at least in Eastern Europe. First, nobody (or very few) will ever care to obey such a law --- and thus the habit of ignoring a law perceived as useless will soon spread to other laws, much more useful and necessary. Second, if the government is strong enough to be able to enforce such a law then this in itself is a big problem because this means ubiquitous hordes of spies and policemen will be employed in the process --- and in our neck of the woods we have well-grounded reasons to deeply distrust such an arrangement, be it made for the best of causes.

Here most folk abide by the law, but also realize when it can be stretched without making any damage - like driving 105 km/h at when there's a speed limit of 100, but everyone else drives 105. But something like banning burning leaves on yards is generally quite well adhered to. And if someone decides to break these ruled, people may or may not call the police, depending on the offense. I am sorry if people can't live in this kind of system in Romania, but it works well enough here. And I'd hardly worry about the government being too strong, or spies 
There are laws in Finland that aren't actively controlled, and there might not even be a sanction defined for some offenses - but the laws are still usually obeyed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_size_of_police_forces

[DavidRoss]

... as we know from the ancient Greeks, the more laws there are, the more corrupt the state is. 

Lao Tzu noted that 2500 years ago. Humans are extraordinarily slow learners. I ROFL every time I think about the irony of calling ourselves "homo sapiens."

[Ataraxia]

Bought a second external hard drive! 24,992 of 41,448 files copied as I type this.

[DavidRoss]

Bought a second external hard drive! 24,992 of 41,448 files copied as I type this.

e-sata or USB3?

[Ataraxia]

e-sata or USB3?

Who the what now?

[DavidRoss]

  Not much of a moggy fan meself. I like MY avatar, and David Ross'. Seurat is my kind of painter.

That's just one of the hundreds of great paintings that the city of Philadelphia managed to steal from Barnes. I'd make a vile comparison were it not for a recent reminder about Godwin's Law.

[DavidRoss]

Who the what now?

I see you changed your avatar to include a pussy. I considered doing the same, but then realized mine had it covered.