The Evidence Of The Hardcore Wagnerian

[DavidRoss]

  Gentlemen, Wagner fans and critics......... please! I think we are all getting quite besides ourselves here.  We are all forgetting Wagner's concept of Total Artwork.  Of course Wagner's libretto are important and to quote ACD, " one misses rather a lot by missing the organic unity of text and music"  It saddens me when people complain about inconsistencies and boring aspects in Wagner's librettos. 

You miss the point, Marvin, though Mike has nailed it in the post immediately after.  I don't know anyone who goes about complaining about Wagner's libretti (or librettos--no apostrophe for plurals, please!  You're a native English speaker, for God's sake!).  However, there are some, myself included, who gag at the outlandish claims that Wagnerhoids (not Wagner fans, mind you) repeatedly make regarding the object of their fawning worship, and thus we try to inject some sorely needed reason to bring matters back to earth.  You may love every note and word that little Dickie wrote, but your worship does not alter the fact that his works are flawed by excess, even by 19th Century standards.  I think Wagnerhoids would do more to promote appreciation of the work by acknowledging the flaws and then addressing the strengths, rather than by denying the problems and belligerently suggesting that anyone not equally infatuated is an idiot...but then, they wouldn't be Wagnerhoids, would they? 

And...I presume that by "Wagner's concept of Total Artwork" you are simply referring to the coordination of sight, sound, and meaning that has been the fundamental principle of theatre since the dawn of time...? Attributing it to Wagner as if it were some astonishing innovation that only he could have imagined is just the sort of thing that tickles my gag reflex.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I think many such sins are committed by even hardcore Wagnerites in the deep of night with the curtains drawn

If it helps clearing consciences here - even I can gorge myself on 'bleeding chunks' within the privacy of my study... 

[karlhenning]

I applaud you both, Tsaraslondon & Sarge! 

[marvinbrown]

You miss the point, Marvin, though Mike has nailed it in the post immediately after.  I don't know anyone who goes about complaining about Wagner's libretti (or librettos--no apostrophe for plurals, please!  You're a native English speaker, for God's sake!).  However, there are some, myself included, who gag at the outlandish claims that Wagnerhoids (not Wagner fans, mind you) repeatedly make regarding the object of their fawning worship, and thus inject some sorely needed reason to bring matters back to earth.  You may love every note and word that little Dickie wrote, but your worship does not alter the fact that his works are flawed by excess, even by 19th Century standards.  I think Wagnerhoids would do more to promote appreciation of the work by acknowledging the flaws and then addressing the strengths, rather than by denying the problems and belligerently suggesting that anyone not equally infatuated is an idiot...but then, they wouldn't be Wagnerhoids, would they? 

And...I presume that by "Wagner's concept of Total Artwork" you are simply referring to the coordination of sight, sound, and meaning that has been the fundamental principle of theatre since the dawn of time...? Attributing it to Wagner as if it were some astonishing innovation that only he could have imagined is just the sort of thing that tickles my gag reflex.

    I never meant to imply that Wagner created the concept of Total Artwork as if it had not existed before his time.  I was merely responding to those who took to criticizing Wagner's librettos as flawed. redundant etc.  I wanted to alert them to the fact that Wagner was far more interested in the dramatic aspects of opera, music drama etc. than simply writing a "perfect" libretto as if it were a work of literature.

  Flawed by excess?    I am afraid I can not agree with you here. Did you ever think to consider that your boredom with what you allegedly call "flawed excess" could simply be a lack of appreciation or perhaps lack of patience on your behalf?  Perhaps Wagner is really not your cup of tea and you tire easily.  Just a thought. 

  marvin 

   

[DavidRoss]

I have a lot more issues with the actual Trinity: now His/Their creation is really screwed up! ...but that's an argument for the Diner.

Nah...His/Their creation is pretty darned marvelous.  It's all the crap that men have made of it that's so disheartening!  Like a spoiled child snatching a gift from the parent's hand, then stomping all over it and smashing it and defecating on it, and then sitting back and gloating at his handiwork.

[karlhenning]

Did you ever think to consider that your boredom with what you alledgely call "flawed excess" could simply be a lack of appreciation or perhaps lack of patience on your behalf?  Perhaps Wagner is really not your cup of tea and you tire easily.  Just a thought. 

I don't know, Marvin.  We have even people who like Wagner a lot, skipping lengthy bits.  It's sort of "home editing," rightly considered.

[marvinbrown]

I don't know, Marvin.  We have even people who like Wagner a lot, skipping lengthy bits.  It's sort of "home editing," rightly considered.

and hence the relevance of this thread...evidence of a hardcore wagnerian.......perhaps this thread should be entitled how Wagnerian are you  ?

  marvin

[marvinbrown]

I don't know, Marvin.  We have even people who like Wagner a lot, skipping lengthy bits.  It's sort of "home editing," rightly considered.

  Incidentally, Karl  how goes it with that Wagner box you purchased. Please, please do not tell me that you are "skipping lengthy bits"- promise me you'll give them at least one whole complete listen.  You owe yourself that  0:).

  marvin

[karlhenning]

Incidentally, Karl  how goes it with that Wagner box you purchased.

Sort of on hold, Marvin.

Please, please do not tell me that you are "skipping lengthy bits"- promise me you'll give them at least one whole complete listen.  You owe yourself that  0:).

No, I want to listen to everything whole;  and the desire to bend undivided attention upon them, together with the large swaths of time needed, is the principal delay.

I listened to Tristan first, and while I want to go back to it again, enjoyed it very much.

Not long after, I listened to the first disc of Parsifal.  I did not listen past that, through no fault of the piece or recording.  I may give that a go later today.

Not terribly long ago, I listened to Rheingold, which I found in some respects disappointing.  But at some point, I will try again.  Probably at some not-yet-foreseeable time when I could actually take the four operas of the Ring in a paced sequence.

[marvinbrown]

Sort of on hold, Marvin.

No, I want to listen to everything whole;  and the desire to bend undivided attention upon them, together with the large swaths of time needed, is the principal delay.

I listened to Tristan first, and while I want to go back to it again, enjoyed it very much.

Not long after, I listened to the first disc of Parsifal.  I did not listen past that, through no fault of the piece or recording.  I may give that a go later today.

Not terribly long ago, I listened to Rheingold, which I found in some respects disappointing.  But at some point, I will try again.  Probably at some not-yet-foreseeable time when I could actually take the four operas of the Ring in a paced sequence.

  Good I am pleased to read this.  When you get to Die Meistersinger I hope the overture, the quintet in Act 4 and above all the Prize Song will please you immeasurably  .   

  marvin

[karlhenning]

Well, I am already familiar with the Prelude and the Prize Song;  it will be interesting to hear the latter in context.

[DavidRoss]

  Flawed by excess?    I am afraid I can not agree with you here. Did you ever think to consider that your boredom with what you allegedly call "flawed excess" could simply be a lack of appreciation or perhaps lack of patience on your behalf?  Perhaps Wagner is really not your cup of tea and you tire easily.  Just a thought. 

Well, Marvin, I've been listening to Wagner for more than 30 years (patient enough for you?), and think my appreciation for his accomplishment is fairly well balanced, though far from complete.  Under some circumstances I do tire easily, yet I'm able to maintain my focus (even if interest flags!) during day-long business meetings.  It is true that Wagner is not my cup of tea (or java--I'm a Yank!  ), but that is not because I cannot appreciate what he was trying to accomplish or because I do not enjoy his glorious moments, but rather because the glories are burdened with too many crippling flaws for me to consider the work an unalloyed artistic success--even measured against its own terms and not just my 21st Century sensibilities.

FYI, I'm presently working my way through Solti's Ring, something I do every year or two, and again am finding much to admire (especially in this recording), but much that is tedious--at least, to enjoy as music per se, though perhaps not as part of a religious ritual (which, after all, is what the little tyke had in mind anyway, is it not?).

[marvinbrown]

FYI, I'm presently working my way through Solti's Ring, something I do every year or two, and again am finding much to admire (especially in this recording), but much that is tedious--at least, to enjoy as music per se, though perhaps not as part of a religious ritual (which, after all, is what the little tyke had in mind anyway, is it not?).

  Well the Ring should be appreciated on its own terms.  If you are just looking for "music",  I take it you mean lyrical music or "beautiful memorable sounding music" for lack of a better expression, then you have missed the point of what Wagner wanted to accomplish here.  Yes, the Ring has lyrical memorable musical moments like the sword forging scene in Siegfried and the passionate music between Siegfried and Brunhilde and the Ride of the Vikings melody to name a few. However you should remember that Wagner is telling a story here. He wasn't always looking to please the listener with luscious melodies- he was more than capable of doing that when he felt it appropriate to do so.  And yes to answer your question I consider the Ring a religious experience!

I enjoy the Ring because I love the story line. I think it is astonishing, the twists and turns of the adventure spanning an incredible 14+ hours.  I love the philosophical implications of Wotan's "free will" monologue to Brunhilde in Die Walkure and the wisdom behind the 3 question exchange between Mime and Wotan (the Wanderer)  in Siegfried. These are among the many highlights of this epic adventure that are not exactly the most lyrical,  nor melodious. But, they are to me,  musically memorable because their dramatic effect is memorable. I can not explain it better than that.  Perhaps you and I really do have different tastes in music and drama. Be that as it may, if we all had similar tastes this would be a very boring world indeed!

  marvin
   

     

[(poco) Sforzando]

  Good I am pleased to read this.  When you get to Die Meistersinger I hope the overture, the quintet in Act 4

Geez, don't make the thing longer than it already is . . . .

[marvinbrown]

Geez, don't make the thing longer than it already is . . . .

  Ok you can add to the list:

  1) the chorus that succeeds the overture- gorgeous
  2) the scene where David instructs Walther as to the components of the perfect song
  3) Wagner's mockery of Beckmesser with his farcical leitmotif expressing how Beckmesser hobbles all over the place
  4) Hans Sach's calm reflection "Wahn, Wahn" after David's altercation with Beckmesser

  Long enough for you or should I go on??

  marvin 

[(poco) Sforzando]

  Ok you can add to the list:

  1) the chorus that succeeds the overture- gorgeous
  2) the scene where David instructs Walther as to the components of the perfect song
  3) Wagner's mockery of Beckmesser with his farcical leitmotif expressing how Beckmesser hobbles all over the place
  4) Hans Sach's calm reflection "Wahn, Wahn" after David's altercation with Beckmesser

  Long enough for you or should I go on??

  marvin 

Wagnerians - no sense of humor . . . .

[Chaszz]

And with that, I leave you good people to take up residence on ACD's just opened classical music and opera forum where one can say anything one wishes, and say it in any way one chooses.

And where a goodly number of you good people can find yourselves called morons for not agreeing with the Aesthetic Lawgiver of the Universe and his cult member.

[karlhenning]

I just don't see where the need is for the Sock Puppet to invite anyone to this latest attempt by the Self-Important Bloggueur to establish a proprietary realm forum.  Surely, anyone of taste simply knows to flock there, and bask in his Suuuuper Geeenius?

[marvinbrown]

Wagnerians - no sense of humor . . . .

  Wagnerians....sense of humor.... I'm afraid I don't know what you are talking about............


  marvin

[Martin Lind]

I think it's perfectly OK if you enjoy Wagner as pure music. But I must confess I can't. For me the libretto is important, not alway but often.

I always prefered absolute music, symphonies and all that, over opera. But during the last years I more and more liked opera and what helped me is to read in libretti.