Any bad, horrible Karajan performances?

[Gurn Blanston]

Yes, that's it. There is only one Karajan recording of this piece, BTW. The original release looked like this:



I don't have access to the recording right now, otherwise I would post the last movement as a sonic freak show. You can sample it on the DG website, but the sound quality of the sample is so bad, you can't tell how it actually sounds on the recording (not that much better though). Interestingly, Karajan only conducted this piece once in concert, and that was 2 years after the recording was made. That concert happened to be the first one he conducted in Berlin after the initial fallout with the orchestra over the appointment of clarinettist Sabine Meyer, and reviews of the concert which can be looked up on karajan.org say that the winds of the BP were booed by a lot of people when they came on stage. But it also says that there were no more boos but 12 minutes of applause after the concert. The whole organ disaster really is a pity because the performance as such is actually pretty good, one review describes the concert performance as "irresistibly sinister pomp" and that fits for the recording as well. Still, the organ plus the typically glaring and blaring sound of DG's Karajan releases in the early digital era spoil the sinister pomp fun considerably. The BP can be heard in thi piece much better on the recording made with Levine only a few years later, with DG this time delivering really good sound - and the organ on the recording is not dubbed in, the one in the Philharmonie was used.

What IS a good recording of this symphony? I have the original EMI set of the complete symphonies with Martinon and the Orchestre National de L'ORTF, and I enjoyed it enough to not want to shop around, so I have no basis of comparison beyond that. I wouldn't mind hearing a different take on it though. Obviously, not one with the organ dubbed in...  



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Listening to:
Haydn String Quartets Op 76 - Tokyo String Quartet - Hob 03 79 Op 76 #5 Quartet in D for Strings 2nd mvmt -  Largo cantabile e mesto

[Renfield]

What IS a good recording of this symphony? I have the original EMI set of the complete symphonies with Martinon and the Orchestre National de L'ORTF, and I enjoyed it enough to not want to shop around, so I have no basis of comparison beyond that. I wouldn't mind hearing a different take on it though. Obviously, not one with the organ dubbed in...  



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Listening to:
Haydn String Quartets Op 76 - Tokyo String Quartet - Hob 03 79 Op 76 #5 Quartet in D for Strings 2nd mvmt -  Largo cantabile e mesto

May I suggest:




Or the one M mentioned:






At least those are my own top choices, from a subjective and non-musician's point of view.


I'll also admit I've learned to love even that grotesque Karajan version, if nothing else because it's so kitsch - dubbed organ and all - that I can't not love it, in a way. Think of it as a guilty pleasure.

[M forever]

Sometimes the dubbed in organ works OK, as in Barenboim's also otherwise pretty good CSO recording, although the effect at the end is strange when the orchestra tears off the last note, and then there are several seconds of organ only reverb - the organ used is the one in Chartres. Still, it is always better to have the organ there, there are moments in the Barenboim recording where it the balance sounds a little artifical, too.

The Munch and Levine would be my top recommendations, too, along with Dutoit/OSM. I was on an organ symphony trip a while ago so now I have about 30 recordings of the piece and there were a couple more that I liked, but I can't remember right now which ones 

[Bonehelm]

What about Ernest Ansermet/orchestre de la Suisse Romande on Decca? I have that. What do you guys think?

[knight66]

The title of the next thread in this series must be:

Any good, exceptional Karajan performances?

There are at least a couple of threads where his virtues are highlighted. At the least, both sides of the arguments are put.

Mike

[MDL]

It didn't, really. Stravinsky criticism was nowhere near "a kicking". But you have never actually read the review, so you can't know that.

Obviously, MF (appropriate initials), you have never read the review. I've copied it below so that you can educate yourself. You're welcome.

STRAVINSKY: A REVIEW OF RECENT RECORDINGS OF LE SACRE DU

PRINTEMPS, 1964.

а) Berlin Philharmoniker, H.von Karajan, Deutsche Grammophon Gesellschaft,

1964

1. Introduction

A ritardando has been substituted for the written accelerando in measures 5-6 and

the differen-tiation of tempo primo and tempo secondo, if any, is imperceptible to

me. The triplet, five before 13, is too slow. As a whole the perfor-mance is too

bland, well blended, sustained: phrases overlap where they should contrast.

2. The Augurs of Springs

The oboe figure at 26 must be played staccato. The second from 28 to 30 is too

smooth in this performance. At 31 the horn and contra-basson are weak and their

syncopated notes (like all syncopated notes) need accents. Articulation would

alleviate the plodding at 34.

3. Ritual of Abduction

The tempo, though very fast, is good except when it sounds rushed; I suspect it

was facilita-ted by rebarring, but no matter. An important fault is the equali-zation

of the 2/4 and 6/8 mea-sures toward the end. The eighths, not the measures,

should have the same value.

4. Spring Rounds

The bass clarinets and their pizzicato doublings are weak at the beginning. Six

measures before 54 the orchestral balance is brutally violated by the trum-pets,

and at 54 the metronomic 160 is slower than the metronomic 132 in the Ritual of

Abduc-tion.

5. Ritual of the Rival Tribes

The tempo falters in the first measure, but a more disturbing fault is the lack of

staccato articu-lation. The daggers over the notes three before 61 should be

applied throughout this section: they call for an exaggerated sharpness. Thereafter

the eighths are crisply and admirably played. At 66 and passim the horns are

overbalanced.

6. Procession of the Sage

The trumpets at 70-71 stand out a decibel or so au-dessus de la melee, and I do

not mean melee.

7. The Sage

The string chord is not properly balanced, the higher instruments being too close to

the microphone.

8. Dance of the Earth

The gratuitous accelerando weakens the build-up in the music. Because of it, too,

or partly because of it, the final chord is a shambles.

9. Introduction

I seen to hear a cricket at the beginning; added natural atmosphere? Is the sleepy

tempo also the result of seasonal estivations? The brasses are weaker than the

other strings at 84, and at 85 the piano of the horns is a forte compared to the

piano of the trumpets at 86. The changes of tempo at 89, 90 -

10. Mystic Circles of the Young Girls

- and 91 are slight in this performance if they exist at all. The balance at 99 and

100 is perfect, but the level is too loud; the conductor is probably the victim of the

recording engineer who, ideally, should be his alter ego. The tempo is shaky at the

beginning of the second measure of 103.

11. Glorification of the Chosen One

The tempo is good but the notes should be needle sharp. The molto allargando

before 117 is here played incorrectly as five even beats.

12. Evocation of the Ancestors

This is too slow! The pulsation should be the same as in the preceding piece, the

old eights equaling the new quarters like interlocking wheels.

13. Ritual Action of the Ancestors

Whether or not metronomically correct, this tempo di hoochie-koochie is definitely

too slow, and at 138 the music is duller than Disney's dying dinosaurs. At 136,

second measure, the notes of the triplet must be separated, not glued together. At

139 the bass trumpet is too feeble for the powerful English horn, and at 140 the

clarinet intonation is bad. The rubato three measures before 142 is unnecessary

and debilitating.

14. Sacrificial Dance

The sluggish tempo gives the coup de grace to whatever tension may have

survived to this point. At 189 the balance is awry, the first trumpet, among other

offenders, being too loud for the trumpet in D.

15. Resume

The recording is generally good, the performance generally odd, though polished

in its own way; in fact, too polished, a pet savage rather than a real one. The

sostenuto style is a principal fault; the lengths of notes are virtually the same here

as they would be in Wagner or Brahms, which dampens the energy of the music

and leaves what rhythmic enunciation there is sounding laboured. But I should have

begun by saying that the music is alien to the culture of its performers. Schoenberg

recognized it as an assault on the Central European tradition, saying that it made

him think of 'those savage black potentates who wear only a cravat and a top hat'.

(When told, in 1925, that I had declared his 'twelve-tone system' to be a dead end -

a Sackgasse - he replied with the pun: 'Es gibt keine sacker Gasse als 'Sacre'.')

But I doubt whether The Rite can be satisfactory performed in terms of Herr von

Karajan's traditions. I do not mean to imply that he is out of his depths, however,

but rather that he is in my shallows - or call them simple concretions and

reifications. There are simply no regions for soul-searching in The Rite of Spring.

(c) 1964 Igor Stravinsky, Hi Fi-Stereo Magazine, New York

[Hector]

As I've said elsewhere, Karajan's first recording of Stravinsky's Rite of Spring got a well-deserved kicking from the composer himself. It can be fun to listen to because it's so peculiar, but it's a flabby and toothless affair. The heft and power of the strings in certain sections are impressive, but the brass section is puny and woolly. Perhaps the recording is partly to blame. Karajan's '70s remake is much better.

I'd forgotten about that.

Personally, I think the remake is boring.

Even so, they are my nominations.

[Hector]

You mean, Jochum's version with the Concertgebow (1964)?  Overpraised?

I didn't know that it was ever praised. A performance that is resolute in its attempt to remain earthbound. Did the indefatigable Dutch not like their German conductor?

I, uniquely(?), find all Jochum's recorded Bruckner tiresome.

Conductors, like Schuricht, are "cleansing" in comparison, like a sorbet after a heavy main course.

[MDL]

Personally, I think the remake is boring.

Fair enough. Even the remake is no match for Boulez/CO/Sony, Markevitch/Philharmonia or Muti/PO.

[Lilas Pastia]

It should be borne in mind that given his ultra punctilious and sarcastic bent, Stravinsky could have made a carreer of savaging any performance of the Rite...The article quoted is only a part of the original interview in which he also criticised the Craft and... Stravinsky recordings . I haven't read the whole affair, so I can't say if Karajan fares worse in the process than the Maaaaster himself. Anybody dismissing David Hurwitz for HIS pieces of musical journalism should know he's only following a long established tradition...

The Karajan portion of the HF interview has been quoted here and there from the time it was printed, most often in mini-bits suitable for mass consumption ("tempo di hoochie-koochie being a particularly quotable fun bit - BTW what IS a tempo di hoochie-koochie  ) . Yet, if one reads carefully, Stravinsky's detailed criticism is as much about interpretive decisions (on which IMO he has little business) than about faulty conception or execution. Given Stravinsky's record about criticising conductors, he must have spinned countless times in his grave - at least every time a new Sacre was released, plus extra spins for all the reviews that failed to live up to his critical standards !

[M forever]

The review you wrote of that recording a few weeks ago was very interesting and well written. I actually wanted to reply to that with some detailed thoughts, but I didn't have time back then.

Obviously, MF (appropriate initials), you have never read the review. I've copied it below so that you can educate yourself. You're welcome.

Thanks, but I have read it several times before. It is a very mild and fair review - especially for someone who could be as bitingly sarcastic as IS - which while it makes clear that IS has a general problem with the style of playing is still appreciative of its good sides and the criticism he makes is very precise. Far from a "kicking". What you don't understand is that IS' main problem with the recording doesn't really lie in anything musical as such but that he had to cope with the fact that someone who had once been as revolutionary and iconoclast as he had in the meantime been fully appropriated by the conservative musical establishment. He hadn't been able to maintain his avantgarde status musically, and the fact that pieces like "Le Sacre" which once had been a declared break with musical tradition was now programmed alongside Brahms symphonies.
In reality, his own recording or the ones made by premiere conductor Monteux are far more "softcore" than even Karajan's admittedly overly rich and lush reading.
That is what makes both Karajan recordings all the more interesting and relevant because that contrast between the music and traditional performing traditions bring out some of the more traditional elements of the music, like it's many very lyrical and coloristic elements which are often underexposed in readings which only play on the "savage" effect.

[scarpia]

That is what makes both Karajan recordings all the more interesting and relevant because that contrast between the music and traditional performing traditions bring out some of the more traditional elements of the music, like it's many very lyrical and coloristic elements which are often underexposed in readings which only play on the "savage" effect.

This is the sort of think that can make me wonder why I sold the CD off years ago and buy it again.  Then comes the painful realization, "now I remember why I sold it."

[Lilas Pastia]

Selling a record because I'm opposed to or frustrated by the interpretation is something I don't do anymore. Year after year I come back to certain recordings and find out that things that used to bug me have receded in the background of a larger context. IOW a healthy distance in time has allowed me to see the forest, not just the trees. And of course my tastes, personality, and knowledge have evolved. Last time I did that was the Brahms PC with Buchbinder and Harnoncourt. And that was out of strong disappointment (with Buchbinder mostly) rather than actual opposition to what I was hearing.

Typically, that would include stuff made by Harnoncourt for example. Which doesn't mean I agree with everything he does, far from that actually. But the logic and intrinsic musical value eventually come to the fore. OTOH, some Oh my! recordings eventually become blah stuff. Again, time has allowed perceptions to change. THAT would include lots of stuff made by Celibidache for example, and a few by Callas (much to my chagrin). Again, there is no absolute. Some of his (most of her) stuff continue to work for me, some don't.

And of course, some things never change, like my general distaste of anything by Gardiner or Rattle . And that, too is OK. It's just me, although I'm sure there must be good reasons for that. I've been wrong in the past and will continue to be in the future. Pretending one holds absolute truth in aesthetic matters is like trying to hold water in your hand.

[bhodges]

Pretending one holds absolute truth in aesthetic matters is like trying to hold water in your hand.

What a beautifully succinct statement, thank you. 

--Bruce

[scarpia]

Selling a record because I'm opposed to or frustrated by the interpretation is something I don't do anymore. Year after year I come back to certain recordings and find out that things that used to bug me have receded in the background of a larger context. IOW a healthy distance in time has allowed me to see the forest, not just the trees. And of course my tastes, personality, and knowledge have evolved. Last time I did that was the Brahms PC with Buchbinder and Harnoncourt. And that was out of strong disappointment (with Buchbinder mostly) rather than actual opposition to what I was hearing.

Typically, that would include stuff made by Harnoncourt for example. Which doesn't mean I agree with everything he does, far from that actually. But the logic and intrinsic musical value eventually come to the fore. OTOH, some Oh my! recordings eventually become blah stuff. Again, time has allowed perceptions to change. THAT would include lots of stuff made by Celibidache for example, and a few by Callas (much to my chagrin). Again, there is no absolute. Some of his (most of her) stuff continue to work for me, some don't.

And of course, some things never change, like my general distaste of anything by Gardiner or Rattle . And that, too is OK. It's just me, although I'm sure there must be good reasons for that. I've been wrong in the past and will continue to be in the future. Pretending one holds absolute truth in aesthetic matters is like trying to hold water in your hand.

I've reached a stage where the amount of space I'm willing to devote to CDs is a limitation, so selling something makes room (and scratch) for things I want to hear.  On the few occasions that I've repurchased something that I had sold I've generally come to the conclusion that I should have trusted my first judgement.  Just yesterday I went hunting for a few of Kovacevich's Beethoven Sonata discs.  Gone.  Duh, must have sold them.  Apparently I didn't like them. 

[Lilas Pastia]

That's perfectly fine. It's a darwinian process. We look for stuff that would in theory correspond better to where we now stand. You're clearing up dead wood and keep chopping the forest forward. In my case I make small piles of that dead wood and just let it stand along my path. When I turn back I can always use it. If I was right, it's now so dry it will burn in a few minutes (say, the length of a cd ). If I was wrong, well, it will serve me again. IOW you're more progressive and I'm more conservative.

Hmm....I don't know if I like that last analogy

[scarpia]

That's perfectly fine. It's a darwinian process. We look for stuff that would in theory correspond better to where we now stand. You're clearing up dead wood and keep chopping the forest forward. In my case I make small piles of that dead wood and just let it stand along my path. When I turn back I can always use it. If I was right, it's now so dry it will burn in a few minutes (say, the length of a cd ). If I was wrong, well, it will serve me again. IOW you're more progressive and I'm more conservative.

Hmm....I don't know if I like that last analogy

I do tent to keep CDs that have a unique artistic vision that I might not adhere to.  I tend to get rid of CDs that are just weak.

[M forever]

I would hold on to more CDs to potentially revisit them lqter. I don't think you can really recognize "unique artistic vision" and tell apart musical quality that you don't currently "adhere to" and what you find "just weak". At least not at this point in your development as a listener.

Remember how just a day or two ago, you let us know that you see (or hear) a very strong French influence in the colorfulness of Rimsky-Korsakov's music and that you find this musical "idiom" continued in the influence Stravinsky in his turn brought back to France with his early, obviously strongly R-K influenced ballets written for French audiences? You then went on to tell us that therefore, you think that the more "refined" French orchestral style is in your opinion more suitable for Russian music than the Russian orchestral style in Soviet times which you see as shaped by "brutal" music.

I don't agree about those vectors of incluence the way you have drawn them and with your general conclusions, but I also see of course that there is a very strong element of colorfulness in the music Stravinsky built on, and that some of that in turn did have a noticeable influence on French music (in my opinion, actually more in this direction than in the other). Whatever the different paths of stylistic development may be and in what directions influences were stronger, it appears that Karajan agrees with you more than I do because he finds a rich and sparkling colorfulness in this music which many don't see, and which many neglect in favor of musical "brutality".

Karajan himself was very heavily influenced by the French orchestral style, and he sought to combine the deeper and weightier sonorities of the German tradition with the more refined and finely blended and nuanced world of colors in French music. Whether or not one finds that a good idea, he was spectacularly successful with that and created a fairly unique orchestral style which combined all these elements seamlessly. Back then, that was something pretty much unheard of.

His two recordings of Le Sacre du Printemps, the earlier one which Stravinsky heard probably even more than the later (which I personally prefer) managed to retrieve exactly that depth and brilliant richness of color that you yourself declared to be more authentic and adequate, so it is hard to see why now you take the exact opposite position.

That is what makes this recording, far from being a personal favorite of mine, highly interesting as a very individual reading of Le Sacre, as a reflection of the different musical styles that came together in it, and also as an interpretation which maybe probes deeper into the musical past than most others did who simply accepted that Le Sacre had somehow fallen from the sky...

Which, as you know, it didn't. I think Karajan clearly illuminated how much the music really owes to a lot of the music that it, at the time of its composition, appeared to rebel against, and I think that is what Stravinsky really didn't like about it when he heard it 50 years later.

[scarpia]

Turns out I still have that Karajan Rite of Spring, both of them, I'm embarrassed to admit.  Good thing I checked before ordering another one.   

[M forever]

Maybe the "condescending" way in which I explained those connections will bias you negatively against these recordings (no, wait, you already are biased against them, so I didn't cause any damage) but it shouldn't. Maybe I could have explained that in a "nicer" way, but that's just the way I am, I can't help it  0:)
Still, there is a lot of "food for thought" in these recordings. I also have a very exciting live recording with HvK from 1977 or so. When I used that in a blind listening game in another forum, it gained a lot of very enthusiastic praise. When I revealed who it was conducted by, a lot of the people who had praised it immediately backtracked and suddenly found faults with it they had somehow, mysteriously, not seen before. Hmm...