Any bad, horrible Karajan performances?

[Lethevich]

The Kondrashin/Vienna performance is anything but brash. It is rather straighforward and he lets the orchestra play the heck out the music. He doesn't try to milk the music or try to exaggerate how beautiful the music is - a non-intrusive approach if there ever was one. Then again this work isn't one that you can say offers an opportunity for many many different approaches. Basically if you move along and keep it together and get some good orchestral playing you rarely see a total dud. What IS interesting about the performance is that 1) The exposition repeat is taken at the 1st movement 2)the bridge theme in the flutes (about 3 minutes into the piece) is taken strictly in tempo unlike many other intepretations where the conductor takes a big ritard right at that point where nothing of the sort is called for in the score. Reiner also keeps it in tempo in his famous CSO recording. 3) The Largo second movement is taken at a brisk 11+ minutes where sometimes you hear it stretched out to 15+. This keeps the music flowing and doesn't diminish the beauty of the movement at all 4) Fabulous brass contribution from the Viennese including some truly great trombone playing in the finale.

All in all the performance is pretty old-school.

Oh, not Solti/Mahler brash, so in hindsight, I used the wrong word entirely - it feels as though the music has had every piece of drama underlined and fully exploited (the beginning of the finale is a wonder to behold) to a tee without compromising the poetry - a really amazing balance. I find the performance very dynamic and powerful, although I probably haven't heard quite a lot of the "greats" in this work yet. Now I am tempted to look for one which does go too far into the pyrotechnics to hear what it is like.

[M forever]

Now I am tempted to look for one which does go too far into the pyrotechnics to hear what it is like.

I tink I have a recording with Rozhdestvensky and one of his Moscow orchestras somewhere, that certainly goes way too far. But it's fun to listen to, in a way. I don't know though if I will be able to find that. I just realized I actually own the Kondrashin recording, too, but can't remember at all what it is like. I don't think I have ever heard the EMI recording. But his last one from the 80s with the WP is actually quite good.

[Renfield]

I tink I have a recording with Rozhdestvensky and one of his Moscow orchestras somewhere, that certainly goes way too far. But it's fun to listen to, in a way. I don't know though if I will be able to find that. I just realized I actually own the Kondrashin recording, too, but can't remember at all what it is like. I don't think I have ever heard the EMI recording. But his last one from the 80s with the WP is actually quite good.

Karajan's very first one (Edit: from 1940) is also quite extreme.

On a few moments in that recording, it almost feels to me like the BPO is about to snap in half from the tension, so to speak.

[Lethevich]

Karajan's very first one (Edit: from 1940) is also quite extreme.

On a few moments in that recording, it almost feels to me like the BPO is about to snap in half from the tension, so to speak.

Ooh Goodness, that sounds... interesting Would this happen to be included in the big EMI box? I keep forgetting just how much that thing has.

[PerfectWagnerite]

Ooh Goodness, that sounds... interesting Would this happen to be included in the big EMI box? I keep forgetting just how much that thing has.

No, that particular one is not in the EMI box. The EMI box says 1946-1984 and the recording is from 1940. You can get that if you want from the 3cd set called "Karajan, Beginning of a Legend" like in here.

[Renfield]

Ooh Goodness, that sounds... interesting Would this happen to be included in the big EMI box? I keep forgetting just how much that thing has.

It was part of a batch of early recordings he made for Polydor IIRC, and is included here.

Or at least that's where I have it from! Also included are his first Tchaikovsky 6th with the BPO (quite fascinating), some Mozart (also quite interesting, but with a slightly questionable ensemble), some Verdi (ditto on the ensemble) and a few orchestral showpieces like Vltava.

[Bonehelm]

It was part of a batch of early recordings he made for Polydor IIRC, and is included here.

Or at least that's where I have it from! Also included are his first Tchaikovsky 6th with the BPO (quite fascinating), some Mozart (also quite interesting, but with a slightly questionable ensemble), some Verdi (ditto on the ensemble) and a few orchestral showpieces like Vltava.

What are those "questionable ensembles" if I may?

[Renfield]

What are those "questionable ensembles" if I may?

Just one: the RAI Symphony Orchestra, Turin. And you certainly may, particularly when you're asking so politely.

I'll note that it's impressive how well Karajan gets the RAI musicians to play, nonetheless. Yet I don't think they're even remotely near the BPO's level - particularly since it's the early 1940's we're talking about!


Oh, and I just remembered there's also a Beethoven 7th and some assorted overtures (including Wagner) with the Berlin Staatskapelle in that box; the latter certainly being far from a questionable ensemble, of course. I must have missed that part of the track list, earlier...


Edit: I must be tired. I also missed a Brahms' 1st Symphony, Beethoven Leonore III, R. Strauss "Don Juan" and "Salome" (out of all things) and Weber "Der Freischütz" overture with Mengelberg's Concertgebouw Orchestra. Absolutely not a questionable ensemble!

[Lilas Pastia]

I never heard the Bach recordings, except a few of the Brandenburgs in his second go at the set (mid-seventies?) -The Polacca of concerto I deserves a prize for polish and suavity. Uniquely fascinating in its quasi perverse way. But make no mistake: this kind of music making is loaded (or larded?) with personality. It should be in every library, for whatever reason you choose.

The only Karajan recording I know that really doesn't cut the mustard for me are the Mozart 29 and 33 recordings (late sixties?). In this particular case, slickness and unctuosity were not accompanied by verve, vigour and drive as the later DG recordings of 35-41 would be. I know this is one of HvK's most controversial efforts, but it's unique right down to the last chord of 41:IV.

[M forever]

The Polacca of concerto I deserves a prize for polish

Pun! - intended?

[Lilas Pastia]

Subconsciously maybe  .

[Bonehelm]

Just one: the RAI Symphony Orchestra, Turin. And you certainly may, particularly when you're asking so politely.

I'll note that it's impressive how well Karajan gets the RAI musicians to play, nonetheless. Yet I don't think they're even remotely near the BPO's level - particularly since it's the early 1940's we're talking about!


Oh, and I just remembered there's also a Beethoven 7th and some assorted overtures (including Wagner) with the Berlin Staatskapelle in that box; the latter certainly being far from a questionable ensemble, of course. I must have missed that part of the track list, earlier...


Edit: I must be tired. I also missed a Brahms' 1st Symphony, Beethoven Leonore III, R. Strauss "Don Juan" and "Salome" (out of all things) and Weber "Der Freischütz" overture with Mengelberg's Concertgebouw Orchestra. Absolutely not a questionable ensemble!

Oh have you heard the RAI orchestra with Wilhelm Furtwangler? They made some interesting recordings including a full Ring cycle in '53.

[val]

Hector


His DGG Bruckner 5th is a library choice for me. The best of his fine Berlin survey of the symphonies. Sooner him than Solti, Sinopoli, Barenboim and the forever extravagantly overpraised Jochum!

You mean, Jochum's version with the Concertgebow (1964)?  Overpraised?

[knight66]

One recording I do not like for its performance style is the 1970s St Matthew Passion. I nevertheless bought excerpts when they appeared on CD because I like the soloists. Overall the performance was sluggish and the instrumental sound too large and homogeneous. The choir sounds big in all the wrong ways. Perhaps also it is too self consciously pious. Odd in a way,. his much earlier B Minor Mass on EMI is marvelously lithe and the rhythms are sprung.

Mike

[Renfield]

Oh have you heard the RAI orchestra with Wilhelm Furtwangler? They made some interesting recordings including a full Ring cycle in '53.

Yes, I have the RAI ring; it's actually from a series of concert performances broadcast over the radio.

However, I will not dare utter views and opinions on a recorded Ring just yet. First, I need to get to know it more properly.

[prémont]

The title of the next thread in this series must be:

Any good, exceptional Karajan performances?

[ezodisy]

Hey M, which is the Karajan recording that has the awful dubbed organ that Harry likes? I remember it has a rather wild cover pic too, I'd like to remember it for future reference

[Bonehelm]

Hey M, which is the Karajan recording that has the awful dubbed organ that Harry likes? I remember it has a rather wild cover pic too, I'd like to remember it for future reference

I'm not M, but here it is:

[Renfield]

I'm not M, but here it is:

Yes, with that vampiric look from Karajan!

[M forever]

Yes, that's it. There is only one Karajan recording of this piece, BTW. The original release looked like this:



I don't have access to the recording right now, otherwise I would post the last movement as a sonic freak show. You can sample it on the DG website, but the sound quality of the sample is so bad, you can't tell how it actually sounds on the recording (not that much better though). Interestingly, Karajan only conducted this piece once in concert, and that was 2 years after the recording was made. That concert happened to be the first one he conducted in Berlin after the initial fallout with the orchestra over the appointment of clarinettist Sabine Meyer, and reviews of the concert which can be looked up on karajan.org say that the winds of the BP were booed by a lot of people when they came on stage. But it also says that there were no more boos but 12 minutes of applause after the concert. The whole organ disaster really is a pity because the performance as such is actually pretty good, one review describes the concert performance as "irresistibly sinister pomp" and that fits for the recording as well. Still, the organ plus the typically glaring and blaring sound of DG's Karajan releases in the early digital era spoil the sinister pomp fun considerably. The BP can be heard in thi piece much better on the recording made with Levine only a few years later, with DG this time delivering really good sound - and the organ on the recording is not dubbed in, the one in the Philharmonie was used.