Any bad, horrible Karajan performances?

[Bonehelm]

I know of quite a few bad/horrible Karajan recordings, but they are mostly due to bad technical problems such as the craptacular Notre Dame organ dub job on the Saint Saens Organ symphony recording (DGG Karjan Gold). Are there any performances that you think HvK's interpretation or the orchestra's playing is just at their worst, or they're having a bad day? I haven't come acrossed these so far, and I've heard a lot of his recordings. Almost everytime when I don't agree with HvK's interpretations (which is quite often in pre-romantic repertoire except Beethoven), I still find his performances generally enjoyable, and the standard of music making is still very, very high. So, are there any performances you will most certainly stay away from? 

[Brian]

This brash, loud, angry "New World" was my first exposure to both work and composer, and put me off Dvořák for years - not until long after I had gotten over this awful account did he eventually my favorite composer. I still don't really like the Ninth Symphony that much at all, largely because of the miserable first impressions that it made. Karajan's Eighth is better, but not exactly something you'd want to hear with so many superior alternatives available.

[Lethevich]

The problem with HvK's bad discs is that it is almost never the quality of the performance that is the problem, but the recording/production quality. That said, I heard some rather dodgy Brandenburg concertos by him, although it's a given that baroque played that way is not ideal by todays standards. Still, for big band performances, even those were fine. I generally find HvK to be amazingly consistent.

His DG Bruckner cycle can sound very wanting in the production department next to the earlier EMI 4th and later DG 7th.

This brash, loud, angry "New World" was my first exposure to both work and composer, and put me off Dvořák for years - not until long after I had gotten over this awful account did he eventually my favorite composer. I still don't really like the Ninth Symphony that much at all, largely because of the miserable first impressions that it made. Karajan's Eighth is better, but not exactly something you'd want to hear with so many superior alternatives available.

Hehe, it took a "brash" peformance of the 9th to make me like it (Kondrashin/WP)

[Holden]

For a start - any LvB Pastoral symphony recording he made and you could say the same for the 7th.

[val]

I wouldn't say bad or horrible, but there are interpretations that seem to me very far from what the works require.

Among other examples, Schumann's Symphonies with the BPO, Bruckner and Mahler's 5th Symphonies also with the BPO, Tchaikovsky's 4, 5 and 6th Symphonies and Mussorgsky's Boris Godunov with Ghiaurov.
I also don't like his versions of Schönberg music.

In general, his recordings of the last years are the less intersting.

[MDL]

As I've said elsewhere, Karajan's first recording of Stravinsky's Rite of Spring got a well-deserved kicking from the composer himself. It can be fun to listen to because it's so peculiar, but it's a flabby and toothless affair. The heft and power of the strings in certain sections are impressive, but the brass section is puny and woolly. Perhaps the recording is partly to blame. Karajan's '70s remake is much better.

[MISHUGINA]

Karajan's Das lied von der erde by Mahler and his last Beethoven 9th is my worst Karajan experiences by far. Not abysmal technically, but just imagine Karajan with sheen and polish at its absolute worst.

[Hector]

This brash, loud, angry "New World" was my first exposure to both work and composer, and put me off Dvořák for years - not until long after I had gotten over this awful account did he eventually my favorite composer. I still don't really like the Ninth Symphony that much at all, largely because of the miserable first impressions that it made. Karajan's Eighth is better, but not exactly something you'd want to hear with so many superior alternatives available.

I, like you, had this as my first 'New World' and thought that the coupling was the only failure on the disc.

I do not know the performance of the 8th.

[Renfield]

A couple of his piano concerto recordings with Walter Gieseking come to mind; though not all of them, I hasten to add.

Some of his late Bach is also not exactly a triumph. And I found his conducting surprisingly "loose" in his last Tchaikovsky 4th - maybe a stylistic choice,  or a bad day; ditto for the 1977 Dvořák 9th Brian linked, although his 1957 recording is actually one of my favourites.

Finally, his first BPO Beethoven 6th comes to mind as well, but it's more miscalculated (in my opinion) than lacking.


Otherwise, even when things sound "Karajanified" (see: his DG Schumann), I still wouldn't say the performances are of low standards. And I still occasionally listen to even those recordings I just mentioned, but that's quite a personal choice.

[Hector]

I wouldn't say bad or horrible, but there are interpretations that seem to me very far from what the works require.

Among other examples, Schumann's Symphonies with the BPO, Bruckner and Mahler's 5th Symphonies also with the BPO, Tchaikovsky's 4, 5 and 6th Symphonies and Mussorgsky's Boris Godunov with Ghiaurov.
I also don't like his versions of Schönberg music.

In general, his recordings of the last years are the less intersting.

Half agree. His Schoenberg is outstanding. The care he took over the difficulties presented by  'Pelisande und Melisande' paid off with a benchmark recording. If you want an example that highlights Karajan's excellence try Sinopoli.

His DGG Bruckner 5th is a library choice for me. The best of his fine Berlin survey of the symphonies. Sooner him than Solti, Sinopoli, Barenboim and the forever extravagantly overpraised Jochum!

His old sixties EMI recording of Tchaikovsky's 4th with the BPO was exceptional.

I do not know the rest but I had his boxed set of the Schumann symphonies on LP and it did not shift my loyalties but I bet it sounds better than the likes of Barenboim, Harnoncourt et al!

[scarpia]

I'd cite this as perhaps the best recording of Dvorak's 9th available (assuming this is the 1977 recording).  Karajan has an old 60's recording on DG which is perhaps even better.  Those who consider Dvorak's 9th to be a confection have to look elsewhere, of course.

This brash, loud, angry "New World" was my first exposure to both work and composer, and put me off Dvořák for years - not until long after I had gotten over this awful account did he eventually my favorite composer. I still don't really like the Ninth Symphony that much at all, largely because of the miserable first impressions that it made. Karajan's Eighth is better, but not exactly something you'd want to hear with so many superior alternatives available.

[rubio]

His DGG Bruckner 5th is a library choice for me. The best of his fine Berlin survey of the symphonies.

I second that!

[PerfectWagnerite]

Hehe, it took a "brash" peformance of the 9th to make me like it (Kondrashin/WP)

The Kondrashin/Vienna performance is anything but brash. It is rather straighforward and he lets the orchestra play the heck out the music. He doesn't try to milk the music or try to exaggerate how beautiful the music is - a non-intrusive approach if there ever was one. Then again this work isn't one that you can say offers an opportunity for many many different approaches. Basically if you move along and keep it together and get some good orchestral playing you rarely see a total dud. What IS interesting about the performance is that 1) The exposition repeat is taken at the 1st movement 2)the bridge theme in the flutes (about 3 minutes into the piece) is taken strictly in tempo unlike many other intepretations where the conductor takes a big ritard right at that point where nothing of the sort is called for in the score. Reiner also keeps it in tempo in his famous CSO recording. 3) The Largo second movement is taken at a brisk 11+ minutes where sometimes you hear it stretched out to 15+. This keeps the music flowing and doesn't diminish the beauty of the movement at all 4) Fabulous brass contribution from the Viennese including some truly great trombone playing in the finale.

All in all the performance is pretty old-school.

[MDL]

Half agree. His Schoenberg is outstanding. The care he took over the difficulties presented by  'Pelisande und Melisande' paid off with a benchmark recording. If you want an example that highlights Karajan's excellence try Sinopoli.

Hear hear! Karajan's Pelleas is outstanding and his recording of the Variations is fascinating. I seem to be the only person who really likes his recording of Berg's Three Pieces for Orchestra, which organises and terraces the orchestral layers with amazing clarity; spectacular work from the tam-tams throughout as well.

[M forever]

As I've said elsewhere, Karajan's first recording of Stravinsky's Rite of Spring got a well-deserved kicking from the composer himself.

It didn't, really. Stravinsky criticism was nowhere near "a kicking". But you have never actually read the review, so you can't know that.


None of the above blabla posts actually answer the original question.

[scarpia]

None of the above blabla posts actually answer the original question.

I find many of Karajan's recordings of early music, written before the time of Beethoven, to be utterly unattractive.  His recording of Bach's mass in b-minor made in the 70's with DG, to be a horror, lethargic tempos and articulation, opaque textures, etc.  His recordings of the Brandenburg concerti are sapped of life (although some of the slow movements are interesting, due to the probably inappropriate sensuous string playing).   From the point of view of live performances, he was creating performances that were to be played in a large hall, so HIP Bach would have been out of the question.  However, I see no reason that stuff had to be recorded.

[M forever]

However, I see no reason that stuff had to be recorded.

Maybe they recorded it because enough people back then liked to listen to the music in that performance style so they bought the recordings? Just a wild guess.

[Renfield]

None of the above blabla posts actually answer the original question.

Original question:

Are there any performances that you think HvK's interpretation or the orchestra's playing is just at their worst, or they're having a bad day? [...] So, are there any performances you will most certainly stay away from? 

One answer:

A couple of his piano concerto recordings with Walter Gieseking come to mind; though not all of them, I hasten to add.

Some of his late Bach is also not exactly a triumph. And I found his conducting surprisingly "loose" in his last Tchaikovsky 4th - maybe a stylistic choice,  or a bad day; ditto for the 1977 Dvořák 9th Brian linked, although his 1957 recording is actually one of my favourites.

Another answer:

The problem with HvK's bad discs is that it is almost never the quality of the performance that is the problem, but the recording/production quality.

Yet another answer:

I wouldn't say bad or horrible

All in all, I see at least two answers even not counting my own (which I wouldn't have made if I didn't consider it relevant), even if two of the three I list are saying that there is, in fact, no instance in the respective posters' awareness of Karajan having made a bad showing on record.

My apologies for the (usual) pedantry I'm injecting into the thread, but do watch that sweep. Some of us actually read what we write.


Edit: Plus Scarpia, who posted while I was writing this! There, four "blabla posts actually answer[ing] the original question."

[scarpia]

Maybe they recorded it because enough people back then liked to listen to the music in that performance style so they bought the recordings? Just a wild guess.

Yes, evidently they recorded it because they thought someone would buy it.  I guess there were Karajanophiles that had to have every piece recorded by Karajan.  But there is nothing distinctive about that recording, they had numerous similar recordings in the can.  They could have used those sessions for something more interesting.  Karajan never recorded Dvorak 7, but then again, this is the same Karajan that on several occasions recorded the same piece twice nearly within the space of a year.

[M forever]

I am not into that performance style either when it comes to baroque music, but I have the set of Händel concerti grossi and these are actually quite nice. They are played by fairly small forces, Karajan used to invite members of the orchestra to come to his house there during the summer holidays and they played these pieces together and recorded them. He can be heard at the keyboard.