The Five Beethoven Piano Concertos and The Choral Fantasy

[Expresso]

1,3 Michelangeli/Giulini
4,5 Pollini/Bohm

[Brian]

HELP! Whose/what cadenza does Bronfman play in the First Concerto? It's about five minutes long and dazzlingly great.

[amw]

Beethoven III. Written for a much later piano by a much older composer, but still my favourite.

(I seem to think of this as the "standard" cadenza since the majority of my recordings use it—Serkin and Michelangeli do, Levin doesn't, that's 67%)

[Brian]

Beethoven III. Written for a much later piano by a much older composer, but still my favourite.

(I seem to think of this as the "standard" cadenza since the majority of my recordings use it—Serkin and Michelangeli do, Levin doesn't, that's 67%)

Thanks! Maybe it has just been too long since I last listened to the work.

[Holden]

Which one is used in Perahia/Haitink?

[PerfectWagnerite]

Not really a big fan of these works but of the 5 or 6 complete sets that I have the only one I keep coming back to is Szell/Fleischer/Cleveland. For HIP I like Norrington/Tan.

[George]

Russel Sherman, Serkin/Kubelik and Backhaus are my three favorite sets.

[Wanderer]

Beethoven III. Written for a much later piano by a much older composer, but still my favourite.

Definitely my favourite, as well.

[Wanderer]

Which one is used in Perahia/Haitink?

Beethoven III.

[Todd]

https://www.youtube.com/v/uPyM57xG__M


An entertaining review.

[Brian]

My favorite part of his videos is the way he stresses the syllables in "DOT-com."

Back in my youthful, unwise days, I superficially enjoyed the performances from that cycle, but more recently when I attempted to listen again...yikes is it abominable.

[Jo498]

3+4 with Ashkenazy/Solti was the first CD I ever bought in fall/winter 1988. I still have it and like the highly dramatic interpretation of #3 quite a bit.

[amw]

Back in my youthful, unwise days, I superficially enjoyed the performances from that cycle, but more recently when I attempted to listen again...yikes is it abominable.

Cristofori is pretty good, imo, and there is nothing wrong with playing Beethoven with an orchestra of 17 players (or whatever). But Schoonderwoerd's piano playing lacks rhythmic evenness or any sense of phrasing, in addition to many obvious technical lapses. The overall effect is choppy and causes the music to lose any sense of going anywhere. I haven't listened to the recordings in a long time.

(For a counterexample on jangly old fortepianos with tiny chamber ensembles, etc, listen to how Ronald Brautigam shapes the opening 12 bars of the slow movement of No. 3 in his HIP recording—that's phrasing with a real sense of line.)

I mention it because I was listening to various pianists' recordings of those 12 bars, since they are (to me at least) a litmus test for ability in Beethoven interpretation, and came across some old recordings from the 1930s by Wilhelm Backhaus conducted variously by Clemens Krauss and Karl Böhm (Böhm does 3, Krauss 2, 4 & 5) which are exceptional in every respect. The only other recordings I listened to that had an exceptional sense of phrasing in those particular bars were Martha Argerich (with Claudio Abbado—obviously she's never recorded 4 & 5), Leon Fleisher (with Szell) and Emanuel Ax (with Mehta), along with Brautigam already mentioned. I have not seen anyone talk much about those Backhaus concerti but they sound to me much better than the (presumably) later recordings with Schmidt-Isserstedt.

[Florestan]

Cristofori is pretty good, imo, and there is nothing wrong with playing Beethoven with an orchestra of 17 players

I think Cristofori is far below that number, but be it as it might be, Hurwitz is absolutely right: that is the worst recording of Beethoven's PCs I've ever heard, period. Not only dreadful, but simply dreck. I am always the one for artistic freedom, but these guys went too far and sank too low.

Honestly, I believe you're just being provocative --- you display too much taste and discernment in other topics to be taken serious on this one. 

[George]

I mention it because I was listening to various pianists' recordings of those 12 bars, since they are (to me at least) a litmus test for ability in Beethoven interpretation, and came across some old recordings from the 1930s by Wilhelm Backhaus conducted variously by Clemens Krauss and Karl Böhm (Böhm does 3, Krauss 2, 4 & 5) which are exceptional in every respect. .... I have not seen anyone talk much about those Backhaus concerti but they sound to me much better than the (presumably) later recordings with Schmidt-Isserstedt.

When you say they sound much better do you mean the sound quality is much better or the performance is much better?

I haven't heard the early performances you mention, but I have long been a fan of the Schmidt-Isserstedt set.

[amw]

When you say they sound much better do you mean the sound quality is much better or the performance is much better?

The latter. Sound is pretty typical of recordings of that era, though perfectly acceptable.

I think Cristofori is far below that number, but be it as it might be, Hurwitz is absolutely right: that is the worst recording of Beethoven's PCs I've ever heard, period. Not only dreadful, but simply dreck. I am always the one for artistic freedom, but these guys went too far and sank too low.

Honestly, I believe you're just being provocative --- you display too much taste and discernment in other topics to be taken serious on this one. 

IIRC Cristofori used either 17 or 18 players for the set. There are even smaller reductions out there though (eg Robert Levin plays No. 4 with just a string quintet).

I agree that the set is quite bad but don't recall either the ensemble or the period instruments being the problem; the problem was at least for me the pianist/director and his (conscious or unconscious) inability to play the piano or shape the musical lines. The idea of presenting the concerti with such reduced forces could have been much more successful in the hands of a more sympathetic artist (eg Jos van Immerseel, Paul Badura-Skoda etc) but as it is I doubt we'll see the experiment repeated.

[George]

The latter. Sound is pretty typical of recordings of that era, though perfectly acceptable.
IIRC Cristofori used either 17 or 18 players for the set. There are even smaller reductions out there though (eg Robert Levin plays No. 4 with just a string quintet).

OK, thanks.

[Florestan]

Robert Levin plays No. 4 with just a string quintet

I can vividly picture Beethoven rolling in his grave.

[Todd]

I can vividly picture Beethoven rolling in his grave.

Why?

[Florestan]

Why?

The 4th PC performed as a piano sextet? Really? Is that what Beethoven had in mind when composing it? Is that how it was premiered?

It was premiered in March 1807 at a private concert of the home of Prince Franz Joseph von Lobkowitz. The Coriolan Overture and the Fourth Symphony were premiered in that same concert.[1] However, the public premiere was not until a concert on 22 December 1808 at Vienna's Theater an der Wien. Beethoven again took the stage as soloist. The marathon concert saw Beethoven's last appearance as a soloist with orchestra, as well as the premieres of the Choral Fantasy and the Fifth and Sixth symphonies.

Is Robert Levin seriously claiming that the Coriolan Overture, the Fourth Symphony, the Choral Fantasy and the Fifth and Sixth symphonies were premiered as string quintets? Boggles the mind, really. Not only Beethoven but also Lobkowitz rolls in his grave.