Isn't death an uplifting subject?

[mahler10th]

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia...re - the Shosty String Quartet No. 15 in E flat minor

[Shostakovich told the Beethoven Quartet to play the first movement "so that flies drop dead in mid-air, and the audience start leaving the hall from sheer boredom".]

[jochanaan]

[Shostakovich told the Beethoven Quartet to play the first movement "so that flies drop dead in mid-air, and the audience start leaving the hall from sheer boredom".]

Precious!  This confirms to me that Dmitri Dmitriyevnich was as great as prepping groups to play his music as he was at composition and playing the piano.  (I already knew this from listening to the classic G-minor Quintet recording with the Beethoven Quartet and Shostakovich at the piano. )  Musicians use this sort of hyperbole all the time to prod other musicians to play their very best, and we all understand that nobody really wants flies to drop dead.

[greg]

Mahlers 10th.  A death too soon, the great interpolation three quarters of the way through the adagio confirms that.

of course, there's always that one......  0:) 0:) 0:)

Give him time.  Once he outgrows Final Fantasy and Grand Theft Auto he might find that what seems exciting in adolescence is actually dull, and vice versa.

Have you every actually spent time to seriously get into Final Fantasy or Grand Theft Auto? Nothing dull about any of those games.

(Incidentally, DavidRoss, themes such as death are far from absent in (certain iterations of) Final Fantasy and Grand Theft Auto; particularly the latter, though drenched in irony, like almost everything else about GTA. Off-hand dismissals are fun and simple, aren't they?)

Exactly! Saying something like "Final Fantasy" is dull makes about as much sense as saying Shostakovich's 15th String Quartet is gay because it's too happy sounding. Even something negative like "silly" or "dorky" i could understand, but "dull" just wouldn't make any sense.
Oh, i hate to bring this up again........ but a better comparison- Dynasty Warriors, maybe? 

[Renfield]

WTF?  This reads as if you're trying to chastize me (rather cheeky for a pup barely out of nappies!), but no matter how much I try to dumb down, I still can't figure out what you misread into the post you're referring to.  Off-target rebukes are embarrassing and revealing, aren't they?

Give him time.  Once he outgrows Final Fantasy and Grand Theft Auto he might find that what seems exciting in adolescence is actually dull, and vice versa.

Additionally,

Too much hostility, dudes.  Takes the fun out of it.

Finally, I would advise you to act your age, prior to using it as an excuse for valid argumentation.

Let's get back on topic without dragging into the discussion things we've (seemingly) barely a clue about, shall we? Or back up our points, in a different thread. Be my guest and make one, if it matters as much as it apparently does, to you, as to insult me.

Meanwhile, I'll ask our moderators what their current policy on personal insults is, in order to assess my leeway.

[some guy]

Additionally,


Finally, I would advise you to act your age, prior to using it as an excuse for valid argumentation.

Let's get back on topic without dragging into the discussion things we've (seemingly) barely a clue about, shall we? Or back up our points, in a different thread. Be my guest and make one, if it matters as much as it apparently does, to you, as to insult me.

Meanwhile, I'll ask our moderators what their current policy on personal insults is, in order to assess my leeway.

Not to jump into any frays or anything, but isn't this entire post off-topic?

The way to get a discussion back on topic, I would think, is to post something on-topic, not to abjure one's colleagues into doing it.

And, since what I just said was all also off-topic (!), I should very quickly say that not only do the putative subjects of music distract one from the sounds themselves (and how they've been arranged) but trying to account for one's very personal, individual, and perhaps temporary boredom with a piece by finding something out about the circumstances of the composer's life when he was writing it will just as surely lead one away from the music.

(I used the word "temporary" above, by the way, to suggest that DavidRoss's comments about FF and GTA were not so much about the games themselves as about the possibility of Scarpia's growing and changing, as we all have, as time goes on. That is what I got out of his comments, anyway. I, at least, did not think that his point was to diss the games.)

[scarpia]

Exactly! Saying something like "Final Fantasy" is dull makes about as much sense as saying Shostakovich's 15th String Quartet is gay because it's too happy sounding. Even something negative like "silly" or "dorky" i could understand, but "dull" just wouldn't make any sense.
Oh, i hate to bring this up again........ but a better comparison- Dynasty Warriors, maybe? 

You've got it backwards.  The point of the condescending put-down about Final Fantasy is that it is not boring, and that if I was sufficiently perceptive I would be able to appreciate a boring work like Shostakovitch String Quartet #15.  

[some guy]

"Boring" is the kind of word that describes perceptions, not the things perceived.

You apparently find the quartet to be boring. OK. I'm not sure why it's so important to tell us all about that, but OK. The quartet has been found by other listeners, some of whom have already responded on this thread, to be interesting. The only conclusion from that, as a couple of us have pointed out, is that the time may come when you don't find it to be boring any more.

The quartet itself, in the meantime, will continue just to be itself, indifferent to whether any of us like it or not!

[vandermolen]

I believe that in Vaughan Williams's 9th Symphony, written when he was in his mid eighties, stares death defiantly in the face, but I find it, paradoxically, to be a most life-affirming piece. Much can be said about the valedictory 27th Symphony of Miaskovsky, written when he was stricken with a fatal cancer and under critical disapproval from the regime. I have to say that I too like Shostakovich's final quartet and the, even later, Violin Sonata, which might also be seen as death obsessed.

[DavidRoss]

Finally, I would advise you to act your age, prior to using it as an excuse for valid argumentation.

Let's get back on topic without dragging into the discussion things we've (seemingly) barely a clue about, shall we? Or back up our points, in a different thread. Be my guest and make one, if it matters as much as it apparently does, to you, as to insult me.

Meanwhile, I'll ask our moderators what their current policy on personal insults is, in order to assess my leeway.

Your uncalled-for admonishments are off target again.  My comment regarding computer gaming had nothing to do with the OP's issue with death.  You went off on a tangent (that there are "deaths" in those games--duh!) to rebuke me, going out of your way to pick a fight instead of making a good faith effort to understand the comment.  That was both cheeky and childish.  When called on it with what most adults would recognize as warm-hearted chiding, rather than acknowledging the fault and apologizing, you felt insulted and reacted with another cheeky off-target rebuke...or series of rebukes, actually.

Now those of us who are grown up recognize immediately the juvenile nature of such behavior.  Not only did we go through it ourselves, but we watched (and suffered!) as our children went through it.  You are obviously still child enough not to recognize how typically childish you're being, but please be advised that it's embarrassingly obvious.  The issue is your unmerited and impudent personal rebuke directed at me, not my calling you on it.  If you feel insulted, you need to recognize that your behavior is the problem.  If you don't like having your childishness pointed out, then stop acting childishly.  The mature thing to do is to take responsibility for correcting your behavior, not to compound the problem by attacking the messenger. 

Your unprovoked but admittedly flyweight hostility is exactly the sort of thing addressed in my tagline, which you ironically quoted in another misplaced attempt to admonish me.  Apparently you don't quite understand that, either...but I'm confident that you're bright enough to get it if only you apply yourself to understanding rather than to starting pissing contests.

Greg--Thank you for demonstrating the point I made previously in saying that "Once he outgrows Final Fantasy and Grand Theft Auto he might find that what seems exciting in adolescence is actually dull, and vice versa."  I know you don't understand this yet, but when you've grown up a bit more you'll discover that those games are as boring as playing with Barbie dolls probably seems to you now.

Some guy--I see that you joined in while I was revising my comments above in an effort to take as much sting out of them as possible yet still be direct.  You are exactly right, of course.  I forget that there are some here who are hypersensitive and defensive about the appeal those games still have for them, thus they attack comments they interpret as "dissing" games as if they were personal insults.  Maybe that's what happened here...?  We'll probably never know. 

[greg]

Greg--Thank you for demonstrating the point I made previously in saying that "Once he outgrows Final Fantasy and Grand Theft Auto he might find that what seems exciting in adolescence is actually dull, and vice versa."  I know you don't understand this yet, but when you've grown up a bit more you'll discover that those games are as boring as playing with Barbie dolls probably seems to you now.

Yeah, I'll give you a call in 10 years when i turn 30 and finally stop liking Final Fantasy  . Although i doubt that'll happen, since I still like stuff that i liked 8 years ago, the only difference is that I've learned to like even more stuff now.

In fact, I listen to Shostakovich sometimes when playing Final Fantasy  0:) 0:) 0:). And the last few days I've decided to get into some of Schubert's chamber music and I've been playing one of the older FF games to it (VI)....

It's not about "outgrowing" stuff you like (unless it's like Barney or Teletubbies), but learning to get closer to your interests and expanding at the same time. I don't see how anything is gained by learning to not like something.

I forget that there are some here who are hypersensitive and defensive about the appeal those games still have for them, thus they attack comments they interpret as "dissing" games as if they were personal insults.  Maybe that's what happened here...?  We'll probably never know.  Wink

Games that you probably haven't even played yourself? I mean, beyond the first few hours?

What if I dismissed a composer I haven't even listened to? Not only that, but one of the GREAT composers....... keep in mind those two series you've mentioned are like the giants- the Beethoven or Jimi Hendrix of gaming (FF7 being voted in a popular game magazine as the greatest game ever made), if somebody dismissed them without even listening, people aren't going to like it.

Bruckner's 5th is inferior. 

[scarpia]

"Boring" is the kind of word that describes perceptions, not the things perceived.

You apparently find the quartet to be boring. OK. I'm not sure why it's so important to tell us all about that, but OK. The quartet has been found by other listeners, some of whom have already responded on this thread, to be interesting. The only conclusion from that, as a couple of us have pointed out, is that the time may come when you don't find it to be boring any more.

The quartet itself, in the meantime, will continue just to be itself, indifferent to whether any of us like it or not!

The thrust of my comment was not to classify the work as "boring" but to comment on the fact that it is an extremely long work which is extremely monotonous in its form and mood.  If that is not a reasonable observation about a piece of music, then there is no point in discussing anything. 

I believe that in Vaughan Williams's 9th Symphony, written when he was in his mid eighties, stares death defiantly in the face, but I find it, paradoxically, to be a most life-affirming piece. Much can be said about the valedictory 27th Symphony of Miaskovsky, written when he was stricken with a fatal cancer and under critical disapproval from the regime. I have to say that I too like Shostakovich's final quartet and the, even later, Violin Sonata, which might also be seen as death obsessed.

That is basically the point I am making.  There are lots of works of art that take death are there theme, but they are more than extended meditations on brooding moroseness.   Like Strauss' Tod und Verklarung or Mahler's symphony #9 they contrast death with life.

[greg]

The thrust of my comment was not to classify the work as "boring" but to comment on the fact that it is an extremely long work which is extremely monotonous in its form and mood.  If that is not a reasonable observation about a piece of music, then there is no point in discussing anything. 

I'm going to have to listen to that quartet again, you've got me interested....... in a bad way.... 

ok, just checked the score, and yeah, it seems to be the one i remember with the most solo lines out of all of the quartets. I don't think it was my favorite. Ever listen to the 13?

[Szykneij]

Exactly! Saying something like "Final Fantasy" is dull makes about as much sense as saying Shostakovich's 15th String Quartet is gay because it's too happy sounding.

Well, gay and happy are synonyms 

Main Entry:   gay
Part of Speech:   adjective
Synonyms:   (colloq.) loose, airy, animated, blithe, bright, brilliant, brisk, carefree, cheerful, chipper, convivial, dashing, dissolute, exhilarating, fast, festive, flashing, flashy, frisky, frolicsome, gallant, gaudy, glad, gleeful, happy, jocular, jocund, jolly, jovial, joyful, joyous, lighthearted, lively, merry, mirthful, playful, riant, showy, sportive, sprightly, vivacious, vivid

[greg]

Well, gay and happy are synonyms 

Main Entry:   gay
Part of Speech:   adjective
Synonyms:   (colloq.) loose, airy, animated, blithe, bright, brilliant, brisk, carefree, cheerful, chipper, convivial, dashing, dissolute, exhilarating, fast, festive, flashing, flashy, frisky, frolicsome, gallant, gaudy, glad, gleeful, happy, jocular, jocund, jolly, jovial, joyful, joyous, lighthearted, lively, merry, mirthful, playful, riant, showy, sportive, sprightly, vivacious, vivid

ha. ha. you got me!


"riant?" "jocund?" lol there's some new ones for me.

[some guy]

Hah! Riant's a new one to me, too.

(Learning new things always makes me riant, that's for sure!! Sometimes I get downright ebullient.)

[greg]

Hah! Riant's a new one to me, too.

(Learning new things always makes me riant, that's for sure!! Sometimes I get downright ebullient.)

I can just imagine using that in a conversation.


"I was so riant yesterday when i got my new dog! It made me so jocund!"

[DavidRoss]

You've got it backwards.  The point of the condescending put-down about Final Fantasy is that it is not boring, and that if I was sufficiently perceptive I would be able to appreciate a boring work like Shostakovitch String Quartet #15. 

No, the point of the statement about games like Final Fantasy is that your opening post revealed how young you are, but that you will outgrow those attitudes as you mature.  You continue to mistake your subjective response, "boring," for a quality intrinsic to the work--another indicator of immaturity.

The thrust of my comment was not to classify the work as "boring" but to comment on the fact that it is an extremely long work which is extremely monotonous in its form and mood.  If that is not a reasonable observation about a piece of music, then there is no point in discussing anything. 

More of the same.  Others are trying to help you to see that your complaints have nothing to do with the work itself, but are only revealing expressions of your emotional reaction to the music, and to suggest that you might respond differently to the work later in life.  You continue to insist otherwise.  Fine.  I've had enough.

[scarpia]

More of the same.  Others are trying to help you to see that your complaints have nothing to do with the work itself, but are only revealing expressions of your emotional reaction to the music, and to suggest that you might respond differently to the work later in life.  You continue to insist otherwise.  Fine.  I've had enough.

You, Mr. Clown (if you avatar is to be trusted) are the one who is showing your infantile attitude, with your pompous posturing to the effect that since you claim to like this piece you are therefore so much more discriminating in your tastes.  I have listened to this piece many times, I even remember being amused by it when I was an adolescent.  I do not claim that the piece lacks objective merit, or that no one should like it.   The issue is that the artistic vision that is at the root of this piece is of no interest to me.  The notion that the only explanation for my not being convinced by the piece is that I don't understand it is nonsense.  I understand it just fine.  I just don't like it.  I notice that no one who condescends to lecture me on my lack of understanding of this piece actually has anything substantive to say about, except that the fact that they claim to enjoy it makes them superior to me.   

[knight66]

I cannot recall a young person here who has responded positively to having their age used against them as a debating point.

Mike

[scarpia]

I cannot recall a young person here who has responded positively to having their age used against them as a debating point.

Mike

It is generally used by those who have gotten old without getting any wiser.