Prokofiev's Paddy Wagon

[Sergeant Rock]

No.7: Ozawa- VIVID- but I have a problem with the way the initial notes flow (Sarge, just like the initial problem in DSCH VC1 with the "first three notes"), so, I'd like it either slower or faster.

Of the versions I own, Kosler is the best at bringing out the pathos in those initial notes; his slow tempo allows him to really milk the theme.

Sarge

[snyprrr]

Of the versions I own, Kosler is the best at bringing out the pathos in those initial notes; his slow tempo allows him to really milk the theme.

Sarge

That was really TheOnlyOne, imo, that did what I neeeded,... I'm so needy that way, haha! But you know my budget for the week.

But, that's also what I was saying about the 5th, and all those 'tempo' discussions we were having: if you use the "five note intro rule" on 30 recordings of the 5th, and made a hash of them (like that LvB 9th clip), I'm sure it would begin to emerge exactly WHAT is going on - I mean, that rhythm is so supple, subtle, that I'm not sure everyone knows what to do with it.

bah-

(sorry, phone call, now it's 20 mins. later and i have no idea what I was going to say) oh yeees-

bah- bah- bah- b-bah

That's the rhythm, right? 1 2 3 &4?

So, it seems as though either Szell or Jansons are playing it the 'rightest' when it comes to the actual flow (though Szell still seems a bit fast to me). And I'd get the feeling that the 15 min first mvmts. are going to sound the 'flowingest' to me (like with the Prok. 7). Anyhow, I'm not arguing tempo, just noticing things (see? I even might come around to Szell! )



What is a good example of a Symphony that everyone plays exactly the same (for whatever reason)? I know Bernstein prolly screws the curve here tho

[Sergeant Rock]

So, it seems as though either Szell or Jansons are playing it the 'rightest' when it comes to the actual flow (though Szell still seems a bit fast to me). And I'd get the feeling that the 15 min first mvmts. are going to sound the 'flowingest' to me (like with the Prok. 7). Anyhow, I'm not arguing tempo, just noticing things (see? I even might come around to Szell! )

Szell's tempos work well together. I mean, the four movements fit perfectly in relationship to one another, making a meaningful whole. At least that's the way I hear it.

What is a good example of a Symphony that everyone plays exactly the same (for whatever reason)? I know Bernstein prolly screws the curve here tho

I'm racking my brain, trying to think of even one. So far I can't. Even with Classical-era symphonies the range of performance/interpretation is extreme (a Böhm Haydn symphony sounds nothing like it does under Weil or the Hobbit Fey). Even taking Bernstein (and Klemperer and Celibidache) out of the picture, I still can't come up with an example. Pettersson may be closest to what you're looking for. I don't hear his symphonies played wildly differently. But of course there are so few performances it's hard to say if that will remain the case if and when Pete gets his day in the sun.

Sarge

[mc ukrneal]

What is a good example of a Symphony that everyone plays exactly the same (for whatever reason)? I know Bernstein prolly screws the curve here tho

I actually think that Tchaikovsky's 5th fits this the best of those I can think of. The tempos and timings have not varied as much as one might exect. Those faster than average max out at about 5 minutes faster, which is not a huge amount in a 45 minute symphony. Two Celibadache performances are 10-15 min slower, but the rest are only 5-6 minutes slower. This also is not a huge outlier. But the bulk of the performances are surprisingly within a narrow band of timings. Performance-wise, there are some differences particularly in some of the fourth movement timings and approaches, but the first three movements tend to be somewhat similar.

[snyprrr]

Of the versions I own, Kosler is the best at bringing out the pathos in those initial notes; his slow tempo allows him to really milk the theme.

Sarge

Seriously, Ashkenazy's 5th is pretty hot, with some zesty Decca sound for some creamy Concertgebouw tones!

As I was saying, I WAS WRONG about the whole "tempo" thing: it's (tempo / tension = the key to awesome), so, the only thing is, if you choose a certain tempo, you must apply the requisite amount of tension to make it C = convincing. That's what I mean to say about tempo, and why Dutoit does not get the First Mvmt of the 5th- he either supplies too much for the fast, or too little for the slow,- he's the opposite of goldilocks- the perfectly wrong amount of tension for the tempo he chose, imo od course, haha!! And, Ashkenazy's and Dutoit's slow mvmts are about the same, time wise, but ashkenazy lays on the tension, inducing what Dutoit lacks.

So, anyhow, that's how I'm "judging" these things.

[snyprrr]

Szell's tempos work well together. I mean, the four movements fit perfectly in relationship to one another, making a meaningful whole. At least that's the way I hear it.

I'm racking my brain, trying to think of even one. So far I can't. Even with Classical-era symphonies the range of performance/interpretation is extreme (a Böhm Haydn symphony sounds nothing like it does under Weil or the Hobbit Fey). Even taking Bernstein (and Klemperer and Celibidache) out of the picture, I still can't come up with an example. Pettersson may be closest to what you're looking for. I don't hear his symphonies played wildly differently. But of course there are so few performances it's hard to say if that will remain the case if and when Pete gets his day in the sun.

Sarge

Surely you have A recording of ANY symphony recorded by ANYONE having a bad day? haha or, do you say, As long as it's recorded well, I can handle it? I mean, I'm not talking sloppy playing, but wilful interpretation that makes you want to gag and throw stuff and say, NoNONO!!!!!???

Andm btw- I Am declaring that there are only three basic tempos any piece of music could be played at, so, your assertion that there are an infinite amount of tempi is naughty naughty!! People will NATURALLY LUMP into CAMPS, with only WILD MAVERICKS doing wilful battle with the Composers' intentions to make 'History'. Are you saying "It" ALWAYS works? Always? Every interpretation is valid? Play Mozart and call it Cage? (I know, that's uncalled for, haha!!lolz)

anyhow- I'm not tryin to bust yer balz, haha! Who do you like in either 4th?

[Sergeant Rock]

Surely you have A recording of ANY symphony recorded by ANYONE having a bad day? haha or, do you say, As long as it's recorded well, I can handle it?

What does that have to do with my reply to this question

What is a good example of a Symphony that everyone plays exactly the same (for whatever reason)? I know Bernstein prolly screws the curve here tho

You seem to be changing the subject....well, of course you are. You're snyprrr  Anyway, I'll answer your new question. Even if it's not recorded well, I can handle it. Seriously. I have some ancient Soviet recordings that are godawful but the performance/interpretations so unique, so compelling, so right, I can ignore the hideous sound.

I mean, I'm not talking sloppy playing, but wilful interpretation that makes you want to gag and throw stuff and say, NoNONO!!!!!???

I like wilful interpretation (Klemperer's Mahler 7, Norrington's Ode to Joy, Celibidache's La Mer, Bernstein's Sibelius 2, Maazel's Rite, Sinopoli's Zarathustra, Sanderling's Shosty 15, Szell's Prok 5, Gould's K.331, almost any Haydn Fey has recorded...and HJ Lim's Beethoven  ). I like to hear music stretched to its limits, played in ways I haven't heard before. What I tend to dislike are conductors and soloists who "let the music speak for itself." Nevertheless, I do want to hear a range of performances, all the Goldilocks choices (which is why my collection is so large). There are very few works that I would be happy having only one recording of.

Yes, there are interpretations that, well, don't make me gag, but interpretations I don't appreciate, including recordings many swear by: Ancerl's Janacek Sinfonietta, Blomstedt's Nielsen 3, almost any Mahler conducted by Abbado. I'd rather listen to Gould perform Beethoven than Brendel.

anyhow- I'm not tryin to bust yer balz, haha! Who do you like in either 4th?

Ozawa.

Sarge

[Karl Henning]

Doesn't the ballet have shorter movements? If it's all the "same" music [...]

Almost nothing is literally (qua composition) the same, save for the gentle Scherzo (Moderato, quasi allegretto).

[snyprrr]

What does that have to do with my reply to this question

You seem to be changing the subject....well, of course you are. You're snyprrr  Anyway, I

Ozawa.

Sarge

I'm under no stress- it's just like being under a lot of stress!! So, I'm under a lot of stress lately! I'd like to be done with this ProkofiDSCH fever!

[Ken B]

I'm under no stress- it's just like being under a lot of stress!! So, I'm under a lot of stress lately! I'd like to be done with this ProkofiDSCH fever!

The cure, as for excessive mahlerism, is to take two stravinskys before bed.

[TheGSMoeller]

Paging Mr. Snyprrs..
Don't ignore this set, very worthy of attention, especially for getting great performances of both No. 4s....

Prokofiev: Symphony No. 4, Op. 47 (Original Version)
Kitajenko - Gurzenich-Orchester Koln


[asin] B001DELX12[/asin]

[snyprrr]

The cure, as for excessive mahlerism, is to take two stravinskys before bed.

You think it's mahleria?

[snyprrr]

Ozawa.

Sarge

He wasn't available singly- Rosty had both 4ths on one disc- simply for studying purposes this can't be beat?


ok Prokofiev- you win- I'm done- whew - you are one exhausting guy!!!!




Has anyone heard CPO's 'Le Pas d'A cier/Prodigal Son'? Rozh is up to $80!

[Karl Henning]

Has anyone heard CPO's 'Le Pas d'A cier/Prodigal Son'?

A good number of us have. DO IT!

[snyprrr]

A good number of us have. DO IT!

ENABLER!!

[Dancing Divertimentian]

A good number of us have. DO IT!

A no-brainer!

[Karl Henning]

Some morning music!

http://www.youtube.com/v/5rfle8wSwJM

You're welcome

[Karl Henning]

And, this will sound relaxed in comparison:

http://www.youtube.com/v/Azo68LgdqTQ

Still a beauty, of course  0:)

[Karl Henning]

More exhilaration, this time from Martha Argerich:

http://www.youtube.com/v/erLLwj8jP3Y

[Karl Henning]

Although the timing of Martha's video is 3:35, the end is all applause;  she actually rocks it even faster than Pollini.

Sokolov certainly caresses the piece, but of course, the marking is Precipitato.  So, lovely thought the result be, it's rather a liberty.