Shostakovich String Quartets

[Karl Henning]

Well, no, it was a Federal holiday

[snyprrr]

At this point it seems I am only concerned with Nos. 5 and 12. I'm finding a substitute for the Manhattan's 5 notoriously difficult. The Manhattan play to the CinemaScope Panavision of the piece- it is very a very cinematic music in a very abstract way- the story is in the intervals themselves, not in some extra story.

It has the reputation of almost being to big for a mere four instruments, and the 1st mvmt certainly seems to me to be one of the most relentlessly (joyous) chugging rhythmic figures I've ever heard- a combination of two very very different themes- a Mash Up, if you will- that Shosty them forces to become friends, which they do through some of the most wrought counterpoint he ever wrote (coming on the heels of the 24).

The opening sets the whole stage for me, and it seems I'm quite picky here. Though I have always loved the Manhattan (5 is rare, they've been my only real reference- I might have heard Borodin/EMI, or Taneyev, or both, and felt I needed the sonics to accompany this music)- I believe there must be better out there, but this music seems to fail people to a certain degree. The thing I like about the Manhattan's 12:01 1st is its breadth and width: it is the longest on record, and they play it pretty smoothly (though they do dig in). By contrast the St.P/Hyperion, which is right there at 11:55, is played at a completely different, much more jaunty rhythm. The third contrast comes from the St.P/SONY 1st, which, at 10:10, puts a whole other, much quicker, outlook on the jaunty theme, which is here rendered as more of a traipse or skip or jug than a chug.

The sound on both others is actually much better than what is afforded the Manhattan (though they've always seemed to have just enough room around the instruments for 4-5 (their slightly small acoustic doesn't work for me in the Later SQs- only in 4-7)), but, I'm being forced to look elsewhere for someone who has all of what I need- I'm feeling the Russians (the Masters included) are all playing this like folk music, but I want to hear another 'Abstract' version- as if what the Hagen might do. I'm down to the Sorrel, the Mandelring, and the Pacifica. The Eder take the 1st as quick as St.P/SONY; the Sorrel come closest to the 12min mark at @11:30, and their samples indicate a full and lush recording (both of the St.P recordings are a bit unique, especially the Hyperion where you feel like you're sitting in the middle of the band- a bit odd, but good for study). The Pacifica seem to have a little more bite than the Mandelring? mm... eh...

The Brodsky sample actually had quite a bit of bite to it too, but a single disc of 5 is rare. I don't like the Emerson here, but I forget why. Like I said, the Eder are super quick, so they're not on the radar. The Fitzzies sound verrry darrrk here, not the style I want right now (but they always have something interesting to say).

is anyone actually reading this???


HAVE YOU HEARD MORE THAN 2 OR 3 5THS?? Do you have some basis for comparison? BECAUSE OF THE SYMPHONIC NATURE of the music, the Sound IS important, so if you choose Borodin or Taneyev or Beethoven- do you really feel the sound doesn't hinder the overall feeling at all? This piece really needs SPACE around it because of its Symphonic nature- but not swamped for detail. St.P/Hyperion has tremendous sound, but the performance is too unique for my purposes.


oy, I just spew this stuff out don't I? pfffffffffff....

[Sergeant Rock]

is anyone actually reading this???

No 

HAVE YOU HEARD MORE THAN 2 OR 3 5THS??

Yes

oy, I just spew this stuff out don't I?

Yes

[Karl Henning]

No 

Yes

Yes

Best. Three-word post.  Ever.

[George]

Best. Three-word post.  Ever.

+ 3

[Brahmsian]

+ 3

+6 

[Brahmsian]

No 

Yes

Yes

Priceless reply, Sarge!   

[Sergeant Rock]

The Pacifica seem to have a little more bite than the Mandelring? mm... eh...

This piece really needs SPACE around it because of its Symphonic nature- but not swamped for detail. St.P/Hyperion has tremendous sound, but the performance is too unique for my purposes.

More bite to the recording perhaps but I think the Mandelring is more aggressive in the first movement. The Pacifica lets the music breath a little more, the second theme more affecting, and it has an absolutely haunting transition into the second movement. The instrumental balance at this point in the Mandelring performance goes off.

Of the seven versions I have, the Fitzwilliam is the only one that gets a "symphonic" sound in the Fifth, a more resonant acoustic, but it has a pretty fast first movement which rules it out as a first choice for me. I think I'd have to give that honor to the Pacifica. Borodin/Bovine is damned good too (but you have to adapt your ears to the recording after hearing more modern versions...my ears adjusted quickly). I rather liked the slicker Emerson too although the transition into the second movement felt rushed, even perfunctory.

Sarge

[Karl Henning]

Most interesting, Sarge, thanks.

[snyprrr]

More bite to the recording perhaps but I think the Mandelring is more aggressive in the first movement. The Pacifica lets the music breath a little more, the second theme more affecting, and it has an absolutely haunting transition into the second movement. The instrumental balance at this point in the Mandelring performance goes off.

Of the seven versions I have, the Fitzwilliam is the only one that gets a "symphonic" sound in the Fifth, a more resonant acoustic, but it has a pretty fast first movement which rules it out as a first choice for me. I think I'd have to give that honor to the Pacifica. Borodin/Bovine is damned good too (but you have to adapt your ears to the recording after hearing more modern versions...my ears adjusted quickly). I rather liked the slicker Emerson too although the transition into the second movement felt rushed, even perfunctory.

Sarge

Yea, you can't take that 1st mvmt too quick--- really, the Manhattan do get this all very well, and they PLAY Symphonic (the acoustic is just enough around them), there is just the feeling that you want to hear just... a... little... more.

The only other issue that hasn't been discussed is the Acies Quartet (3 and 5; forget label). Their samples seem to reveal all the things one wants out of this mvmt. Though I find the playing time skimpy- and I really don't need another 3rd- this 5th sounds very similar to the Pacifica's- lots of wood and excitement, but enough air around the phrases.

Your description of Mandelring vs. Pacifica brought out the fact that I just don't think we want that 1st overly aggressive (same problem with some 4ths). The music itself is so vigorous that I don't see why one should have to 'saw' it out and make it even more so than it already is.

I did pop for the Sorrel after that St.P/Hyperion disappointment. I may even have to try that Acies. Seriously, this is some rare-air music and it deserves The Treatment! I do get tired of having to slog through the pile just to get to that last one.- normally I GIVE UP A LOT QUICKER, BUT NOT WITH THE 5TH. (gggaaah caps)

[snyprrr]

St. Petersburg String Quartet (SONY)

Two issues were released in 1995, 1/2/4 and 3/5/7, recorded at the Melodiya and St.P Studios, by Gerhard Tses(s) (who, incidentally, seems to be their Recording Engineer on the Hyperion disc also!- which explains their unique sound throughout). Their strategy seems to be to recreate the classic Russian sound with modern technology, so, their performances are generally at quite breakneck speeds that nonetheless gel bracingly through the vigorous and ardent playing- whether you like these performances or not, you will surely respect them. I could have certainly used more space around the notes, but in this case, the group plays so well that all considerations vanish into complete submersion into the music; the SONY sound is state-of-the-art.

If we compare No.7 Op.108 with the Hyperion release (also recorded at St.P Studios by Tses(s)), the first thing that strikes us is the bizarrely 3-D sound of the Hyperion; the SONY has that perfectly dryish acoustic with a little bit of back up, but the Hyperion is fully fledged Opera Stage of the Mind! It's somewhat willful, but it is spectacular. The performances seem a bit more relaxed in the Hyperion all the way around, which isn't to hard considering the super-human power coming through in the SONY Cycle.

No.5 Op.92 sets up an odd contrast. The SONY is one of the quickest 1st 10:10; (not my favourite style of playing the 5th), but they make it work very vigorously, and the SONY sound accentuates all the woody drama nicely. The Hyperion performance is one of the slowest (1st 11:55), but sounds nothing like the streamlined Manhattan (1st 12:01). The Hyperion St.P 'infect' the opening with a rather bizarre jauntiness I haven't heard elsewhere (maybe Fitzzies?), which, when accentuated by the equally bizarre soundstage 3-D backdrop, there is a very odd, yet somewhat pleasing, effect. It certainly precludes it from any First Choice, but it does make for wondrously clinical study. I have been reading an increasing amount of criticism levelled at their engineering and/or performance style, and it is evident that there is something different going on here. I do enjoy it, but I wonder if a whole Cycle would wear on me?

Ultimately, I wholeheartedly recommend the SONY set of two separate CDs- they're very very cheap right now- as a great 'Masters Substitute'. They play like the Masters, but are afforded the best sound of any Russian group ever (in both, but I prefer the SONY). Their playing in the SONY Cycle is much more scintillating than in the Hyperion, with sonics to match. Though these are blistering performances, and I'm going to gauge that most of us wouldn't choose them as our 'Soul Food' choice, for that 'authentic' feel (whatever that does mean anymore), this St.P Cycle is the one to have.

Who out there had others in the Hyperion Cycle?

[Sergeant Rock]

Yea, you can't take that 1st mvmt too quick--- really, the Manhattan do get this all very well, and they PLAY Symphonic (the acoustic is just enough around them), there is just the feeling that you want to hear just... a... little... more.

I found a used copy. Ordered it. Grabbed Manhattan's 6/7/8 too just because it was really cheap.

Sarge

[aukhawk]

St. Petersburg String Quartet (SONY)

Who out there had others in the Hyperion Cycle?

I've got the Piano Quintet (with Piano Trio 2 and SQ1) and I like it and it was my go-to version, but not any more -
I prefer the Talich for the Quintet (and the Sorrels are quite similar here) and the Vienna Trio (Nimbus) for the Trio.

[snyprrr]

I found a used copy. Ordered it. Grabbed Manhattan's 6/7/8 too just because it was really cheap.

Sarge

Sooooper!!!!! I just ordered the Brodsky Box cheap!


Also, the Borodin/Virgin 2-CDs and Borodin/Erato 2-CDs arrived. Quickly- SQ No.1 on the Erato plays like hot cocao on Christmas Eve (haven't heard 15 yet), but I am curious about the sound production on the Virgin:

2 and 12 were recorded at The Maltings

3/7/8 at St. Jude

2 and 12 have a certain recorded tang- maybe this is supposed to be that thing that everyone hated- it sounds like a haydn recording- mm- but it's still very nice- BUT IS THAT CELLO TOO RECESSED---- KARL??? There IS something "willful" about the recording, but it's liveable and the performances are like comfort food. But, in the car, I could barely hear the cello intro to 12- on the boom box a bit better- the balance IS odd in the 2/12 disc I think. The 3/7/8 disc sounds as nice and natural as the Erato.

Getting to the Trio and Quintet...





I feel like I'm getting to end of the line here. The only thing left is to start buying Boxes, which isn't going to happen anytime soon. Again, I'm only interested in 5... 12... (4)... 9-10... 11...

[snyprrr]

More bite to the recording perhaps but I think the Mandelring is more aggressive in the first movement. The Pacifica lets the music breath a little more, the second theme more affecting, and it has an absolutely haunting transition into the second movement. The instrumental balance at this point in the Mandelring performance goes off.

Of the seven versions I have, the Fitzwilliam is the only one that gets a "symphonic" sound in the Fifth, a more resonant acoustic, but it has a pretty fast first movement which rules it out as a first choice for me. I think I'd have to give that honor to the Pacifica. Borodin/Bovine is damned good too (but you have to adapt your ears to the recording after hearing more modern versions...my ears adjusted quickly). I rather liked the slicker Emerson too although the transition into the second movement felt rushed, even perfunctory.

Sarge

No.5 Op.92

Manhattan
Brodsky (en route)

St.P/SONY
St.P/Hyperion

SORREL



Just compared the Sorrel. Hmm... the Chandos sound is at its Maltings lushest. The Sorrel play meatily. I'd say it's a more profound performance than the Manhattan, but when I then put them on, I really was NOT UNDERwhelmed- the Manhattan STILL have a lot of great things about their product, they can still contend with all-comers.

The Sorrel certainly have the Biggest Sound, and vigorously saw away at the sinewy, long-limbed melodies. The Manhattan are more contained, but their vigour is no less so. The Sorrel are also afforded a dark, syrupy viola tone that is quite delectable- which none of the others have.

I'm leaning towards the Pacifica and the Acies- both have a woodsy flavour to their samples, though the Acies seem to have just an extra ounce of folksy reverie.

Oy- my search for the Perfect Fifth is gruelling.


btw- the St.P/Hyperion had the least effective slow movement so far, not as characterized as all the others.

[snyprrr]

No.3 Op.73

I always liked that Borodin/EMI has 2 and 3 on the same disc, separating them from the rest (No.1 I'm not considering for these purposes). But, those two are my least favoured technically and I have had little compunction to listen to them, especially if the recording doesn't erase memories of the Borodin.

The 1st movement 'Allegretto' just has too much of the DSCH "Jaunty-folk-jester" sound... I haven't been able to start with this. I went to the 'Moderato' finale and let the St.P/SONY be my guide. Well, I must say I was really impressed, and I know this is partially due to the players and sound, which are really wonderful. And I really liked the mercurial music, which still had traces of the 'Allegretto' sound-world.

Then I tried the 'Adagio', and remembered that unison intro from my Borodin days. Here the St.P's recording really highlights the lovely syrup between the strings in the drawn out notes.

I then continued with the famous 2nd movement 'Moderato con moto'- actually one of my favoured Shosty bits (so heroic sounding). Here I only missed the ample acoustic of the Borodin recording, but otherwise, the St.P retain a very similar profile to their elders (as they seem to in this whole SONY 1/2Cycle).

SQ 3 is certainly the first TRUE "DSCH" SQ, being the "initiation" of so many bits that would pop up again and again, including the machine-like 'Allegro non troppo' which prefigures the Scherzi of all the SQs 7-10 (and Symphonies 8 and 10). The five movement scheme also works to densely pack the SQ with an overload of prickly ideas, all somewhat tilting to a jaunty, jester-like profile.

So, I was being a bit hard on op.73. I'd still rather hear the Hindemith SQs from the '40s, or Bartok, or any number of other SQs from the Gotterdammerung of Romanticism (let's just say it dies 1945-53 along with the war, just for argument's sake). Shosty seems like the baby on the scene with No.3, competing with SQ Traditions of a much older vintage. I'd say Shosty peaks here with the highly wrought No.5, which I WOULD like to hear rather than Hindemith perhaps!


It actually seems to be the most highly recorded of his SQs, and everyone seems to thick it embodies everything they like- and it is easier on the ears for the Mozart crowd, those who have problems with Modern Music. Personally, I like 4 and 5 much more, but 3 is growing on me as Shosty's "First" String Quartet.




I suppose we could also talk about No.2 since these two seem to just want to be with each other, as if the belong together separately apart from the others (again, not counting the real No.1, which I like to include more with 'The Russian Tradition' a la Myaskovsky).

[NorthNYMark]

As I may have mentioned in the "Dacha" thread, #2 is one of my favorite of the quartets; after the rather jaunty (yet still somewhat dark in at least some interpretations) first movement, it transforms into one of the most remarkably introspective works I've ever heard in the string quartet genre.  It is one where I feel that the non-Russian ensembles I've heard tend to play it in a way I prefer, emphasizing the more uncannily haunting aspects rather than trying to sound melodramatic.  In particular, I think the Mandelring Quartet turns it into an unsettling masterpiece.  Unexpectedly, given their reputation for coldness, I think the Emerson Quartet does a very good job on the recitative (in terms of what I especially like in it, which is more of a reflectively brooding mood rather than a showy, hand-wringing one).

[snyprrr]

As I may have mentioned in the "Dacha" thread, #2 is one of my favorite of the quartets; after the rather jaunty (yet still somewhat dark in at least some interpretations) first movement, it transforms into one of the most remarkably introspective works I've ever heard in the string quartet genre.  It is one where I feel that the non-Russian ensembles I've heard tend to play it in a way I prefer, emphasizing the more uncannily haunting aspects rather than trying to sound melodramatic.  In particular, I think the Mandelring Quartet turns it into an unsettling masterpiece.  Unexpectedly, given their reputation for coldness, I think the Emerson Quartet does a very good job on the recitative (in terms of what I especially like in it, which is more of a reflectively brooding mood rather than a showy, hand-wringing one).

you have been contributing nicely here lately- thanks! In 2 I currently have St.P/SONY, Moyzes, Borodin/Virgin, with Brodsky on the way (though I still remember fondly the Borodin/EMI). I'll take one in the car today...

I WOULD need a 'special' version (like you say about the Mandelring) for this one to totally click with me. Let's see...

[snyprrr]

No.1- Brodsky, St.Petersburg/SONY, Borodin/Erato (latter two very good)

No.2- Brodsky, St.P/SONY, Moyzes, Borodin/Virgin

No.3- Brodsky, St.P/SONY, Sorrel, Borodin/Virgin

No.4- Brpdsky, St.P/SONY, Sorrel, Moyzes, Manhattan

No.5- Brodsky, St.P/SONY, Sorrel, Manhattan, St.P/Hyperion

No.6- Brodsky, Sorrel (both are very good- I'd like to hear Pacifica, Mandelring, etc.,...)

No.7- Brodsky, St.P/SONY, St.P/Hyperion, Sorrel, Borodin/Virgin

No.8- Brodsky, Sorrel, Borodin/Virgin

No.9- Brodsky, Sorrel

No.10- Brodsky, Sorrel

No.11- Brodsky, Sorrel, Vogler

No.12- Brodsky, Amati, Borodin/Virgin

No.13- Brodsky, Sorrel, Kremer/Lockenhaus Edition-ECM

No.14- Brodsky, Kremer/Lockenhaus Edition-ECM

No.15- Brodsky, Sorrel, Borodin/Erato



Emerson- 1, 11, maybe 12, maybe 9-10... sometimes 7-8... there's still "something" chilly about them I don't like most of the time- all others preferred

Brodsky- For me, the Brodsky are On in 6-10, especially 9-10. Trying too hard in the Later SQs. I didn't like 5

Sorrel- They have the absolute richest sound. Sometimes they seem to take the slow movements to the point of lack of tension (11), pointing out that one has to
           be careful which movements one wishes to "make one's own". Great 5, dark and meaty 6, maybe the best 8, pretty good 4 (but the competition is stiff
           here). You may not agree with all their choices, but they're always up to something. 9-10 not as vicious as Brodsky perhaps.

St.P/SONY- My new choice for 1-7 (except no 6). Tight, great SONY acoustic, - viral performances--- feral!! Best 7.
St.P/Hyperion- Strange 3D Hyperion sound is a help/hurt depending. 5/7/9- 5 is very strange but interesting- 9 is verrry good. I like to hear 10. Otherwise, I don't
                       think I can handle the presentation sonically- bizarre sonics are beautiful, but disturbingly so. The playing seems to play to the acoustic, not mus

Borodin/Virgin- different acoustics for 2/12 and 3/7/8, the latter is preferred. August performances.
Borodin/Erato- the Best 15 I've heard, maybe the best 1. Great 'Teldec' sound

Manhattan- I still hold fond 4-5, maybe 6. The acoustic is too dry to withstand the harshest later music, I think. The clearest 4 sonically.

The Vogler 11 and Amati 12 and Kremer 13-14 are all in top contention I think.





Apparently there are TWO Rubio Cycles? One on Globe and one on Brilliant? They show two different recording dates, soooo... anyone?


I was thinking about Pacifica's Vol.1 (5-8, Myaskovsky 13), Acies 3/5 (short timing there),... BUT I'M GETTING TO "THAT" POINT- the "one-offs" aren't anymore that attractive, and the only thing left is the Big Boxes- Beethoven, Borodin, Shostakovich, Taneyev (if found), or one of the newer ones...

[Karl Henning]

Emerson- 1, 11, maybe 12, maybe 9-10... sometimes 7-8... there's still "something" chilly about them I don't like most of the time

I consider that bracing