Sir Simon Rattle

[Mark]

I'm aware that there are some people here and in the wider world who think this conductor somewhat overrated.

I'm also aware that he is something of a darling of the (understandably biased) British classical music press.

But what do YOU think of his work?

For me, he's one of my 'trusted' conductors (Marriner, Davis - Andrew, rather than Colin - and Haitink are also on this list): someone who can be relied upon to give nothing less than a good performance, and quite often, someone capable of delivering a great one. I think of Rattle as a British Herreweghe, but without a period-band bent. Both men seem to dig deep into scores, unearth and spotlight (not always flatteringly) some interesting writing, and thereby produce interpretations that might be described as unique.

However, I can understand why some think that Rattle can have a tendency to maul a score, over-emphasising this or that detail at the risk of pulling the overall musical line out of shape. Personally, I don't hear things this way - I just appreciate his particular take on any given work. But then, I'm British. So I must be biased.

Let's have a frank discussion about Rattle's pros and cons, and perhaps some suggestions of recordings conducted by him which one should (and should not) own.

[CRCulver]

I really like some of the repertoire that he has championed, like Gubaidulina's Zeitgestalten, Stockhausen's Gruppen, and Messiaen's Éclairs sur l'au-dela, but I generally find that I prefer the readings of other conductors to his own.

[Don]

I really like some of the repertoire that he has championed, like Gubaidulina's Zeitgestalten, Stockhausen's Gruppen, and Messiaen's Éclairs sur l'au-dela, but I generally find that I prefer the readings of other conductors to his own.

Same here.  I find Rattle very unreliable.

[CRCulver]

I liked his entertaining film series on >> Orchestral Music in the 20th Century.

I reviewed a number of those DVDs on Amazon. I was disappointed that his tour of contemporary repertoire basically stopped in the early 1970s, leaving out the spectralists who are still producing music that would have been accessible to the general audience that Rattle sought.

[mahler10th]

Rattle has produced MANY outstanding performances.
Yet he is inconsistent.
"Orchestral Music in the 20th Century" - that looks very interesting for sure!

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

I've heard Rattle live several times, with 3 different orchestras. Every time, the results were at least good, and a couple of times, among the best concerts I've been to.

I generally agree with the notion that his recordings are not up to that standard. However, there are a few that I value highly: his disc of Adams' orchestral music (Harmonielehre + a few other pieces), Walton 1, Shostakovich 4, and first recording of Mahler 10 (I haven't heard the second).

I've heard several of his much-vaunted (in the UK at least) Mahler, and my overall impression is that they're pretty good, but don't stand out in the current overcrowded Mahler market. I think EMI might have rushed him into the studio too young, and let him make too many discs too early.

[nimrod79]

I think Rattle excels as a music director in a number of ways.  He's an excellent and enthusiastic champion of lesser known, modern composers.  He's also good at forging a bond between orchestras and their communities (Birmingham and Berlin for example), and making an orchestra an important part of a city's cultural landscape.  He's also an adventurous and daring programmer.

However, I agree that his actual skills as an interpreter and conductor are inconsistent.  His interpretations of 20th century works tend to be fairly solid, and in many ways he has made the Mahler 10th completion his own.  However, I've yet to hear him conduct a decent performance of a classical or romantic work.  His Beethoven cycle with the Vienna Philharmonic is rather incoherent, and his recent recording of Haydn symphonies is just bizarre. 

[MDL]

Interesting topic. It's 1am local time and I'm a teensy bit drunk, so I must return when I'm a bit less foggy (belch). But while I'm here, I'd like to say that I think Simon Rattle is great. His 7-part TV series about 20th-century music, Leaving Home, was fascinating, and my shelves are full of his recordings.

BUT why did he bugger up his recording of Prokofiev's Scythian Suite by adding a pounding timpani rhythm to the final chords? The last half-minute or so is meant to be a seering haze of brass and metal percussion. Rattle ruins it. I've got a few other recordings and I've heard the Scythian Suite live a few times and I've never heard anything like it. Why did Rattle decide to change the character of that section completely? Did he go temporarily insane? Was it part of Prokofiev's original plan?

[M forever]

He's also good at forging a bond between orchestras and their communities (Birmingham and Berlin for example), and making an orchestra an important part of a city's cultural landscape.

The BP have been a highly integrated and very important part of Berlin's cultural landscape for a very, very long time. They are also without doubt the most well known and icnonic part of the city's cultural landscape. Rattle had nothing to do with that. He walked into that situation.

[zamyrabyrd]

His mannerisms and face-pullings are clownish, whatever his musical qualifications and/or accomplishments may be.

ZB

[knight66]

His mannerisms and face-pullings are clownish, whatever his musical qualifications and/or accomplishments may be.

ZB

Never did 'get' that. It only happens in performance, not rehearsal. The first thing I did with him was in the choir for the Faure Requiem. Often conductors mouth at least some of the words with or for the choir. He started this manic mouthing and we thought it was somehow about us moving our mouths more to get more sound out....in the Faure?! Anyway, we got used to it, but each time we had to make that adjustment....no, I am not on the wrong page...he is not trying to indicate the words he is just mouthing off.

Mike

[nimrod79]

He's also good at forging a bond between orchestras and their communities (Birmingham and Berlin for example), and making an orchestra an important part of a city's cultural landscape.

The BP have been a highly integrated and very important part of Berlin's cultural landscape for a very, very long time. They are also without doubt the most well known and icnonic part of the city's cultural landscape. Rattle had nothing to do with that. He walked into that situation.

Oh certainly, and I didn't mean to discount the important role the BPO has played in Berlin's cultural life throughout its history.  I was thinking more of the push to create the Berlin Philharmonic into a public foundation and the orchestra's educational outreach programs, both of which were Rattle initiatives.  But you are right, the orchestra was an important staple of Berlin long before Rattle came.

[Anne]

He conducted a wonderful Guerrelieder in Philadelphia.

[M forever]

Oh certainly, and I didn't mean to discount the important role the BPO has played in Berlin's cultural life throughout its history.  I was thinking more of the push to create the Berlin Philharmonic into a public foundation and the orchestra's educational outreach programs, both of which were Rattle initiatives.  But you are right, the orchestra was an important staple of Berlin long before Rattle came.

Sorry to disappoint you again, but both the restructuring and also educational outreach programs in general are ideas that also preceded Rattle. The BP has had concerts specifically for schools and educational programs of one sort or another for decades. There had also been a concert series dedicated specifically to contemporary music from the 60s throughout the late 80s. The reason it was abolished was that it was felt that it wasn't necessary anymore and that modern music could easily be integrated into the "regular" programs. Which Abbado did a lot.
What Rattle can be credited with is that he put his weight behind the restructuring idea and pushed it through because he also wanted to remove the orchestra from the control of the senate. Basically, the idea was that the city of Berlin should continue to fund the orchestra but that small-minded local cultural politicians should have absolutely no say in artistic matters anymore. Which they didn't really have before, at least not to a decisive degree, but there were friction points here and there which have been removed now. That's a good thing.
Rattle is definitely a very good politician, he knows how and which strings to pull to get things done. He and the people behind him also understand marketing very well.
He is also without doubt a good musician and very professional conductor who knows all the tricks of the craft and how to work with an orchestra to achieve the results he wants.
But - he also knows and understands perhaps too well that being good is one, thing, being seen as good is another. And for him it is just as important that he is seen as good by as many people as possible, and he caters to that too much with his musical and gestural mannerisms. That is both the source of his worldy success and his musical shortcomings. But he wants it that way.
He makes music on a basically high level, but that is not more important to him than that you know how great he is. He really wants you to know that. Really. No, don't look away, look how he artistic he looks. Doesn't he? Isn't he great?
In short, he is a very good conductor who invests a lot of his energy into looking like a great one to as many people as possible rather than pursuing musical excellence beyond the level of well executed and vainly mannered.

[Renfield]

(There was a thread about this made a few months ago, Mark.

And I remember because I still owe a response to it, which - believe it or not - I intend to eventually give! Talk about taking your time. )

[eyeresist]

Very interesting post, M.  Rattle's extreme self-consciousness might come from his early years building the Birmingham orchestra, both musically and in reputation via public outreach projects and political networking. Getting attention would have been a fundamental aim at this time, in order to improve the standing of both himself and his orchestra. This may have permanently molded his outlook and behaviour in the way you described. In which case, what he really needs is to get out of the public eye for a while. But being famous pays too well!

[M forever]

I don't think that's self-consciousness at all. It looks more like calculated showmanship to me.

[eyeresist]

That's what I meant by self-consciousness - he's aware of his public image to an inordinate degree, and performs in a way calculated to flatter that image. This, rather than being spontaneous or purely motivated by the art.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

He conducted a wonderful Guerrelieder in Philadelphia.

I remember - I was at that one. (January 2000, I think.)

My other favorite Rattle concert was a Mahler 9 he conducted in Berlin (but with his Birmingham orchestra).