Visionaries Debate

[James]

Visionaries is an interactive seven-part series that debates the merits of some of the most innovative and iconic composers from the field of classical music, examining the geniuses behind some of the greatest compositions. At the end of each program listeners will have the chance to vote online for their favourite composer.

Presented by BBC Radio 4's Francine Stock, inspirational composers from different eras will be pitted against each other in the quest to find the supreme classical music visionary.

Each composer has a dedicated and well known advocate, arguing why their chosen icon is the most visionary and has had the most impact in the field.

The final program will be a reprise of all the featured composers including a discussion among the advocates about their chosen composer and the winner will be revealed.

There is more information on the Visionaries website: http://www.visionariesdebate.com/

The series, in association with Credit Suisse, launches on BBC World News on 30 August 2008 with a special introductory program. Full transmission details can be found on the BBC World News website: http://www.bbcworldnews.com/Pages/Schedules.aspx

The Series

Introduction Program
Saturday 30 August

PROGRAM 1: BACH (Tim Minchin) Vs HANDEL (Alexander Armstrong)
Saturday 6 September

PROGRAM 2: BEETHOVEN (Evelyn Glennie) Vs MOZART (Michael Morpurgo)
Saturday 13 September

PROGRAM 3: CHOPIN (Clemency Burton-Hill) Vs VERDI (Sophie Ellis Bextor)
Saturday 20 September

PROGRAM 4: SHOSTAKOVICH (Joan Wasser) Vs TAKEMITSU (Noriko Ogawa)
Saturday 27 September

PROGRAM 5: GLASS (Dennis Russell Davies) Vs BOULEZ (Courtney Pine)
Saturday 4 October

PROGRAM 6: Winners Announced
Saturday 25th October

[eyeresist]

THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!!!!!!!!!!111

What a load of bollocks.

[sound67]

PROGRAM 3: CHOPIN (Clemency Burton-Hill) Vs VERDI (Sophie Ellis Bextor)
Saturday 20 September

Verdi vs CHOPIN  ?

No Wagner? No Stravinsky? No Schoenberg? No Bartók?

The whole concept is gimmicky at best.

Thomas

[mahler10th]

Might help as an introducion of sorts to Classical Music for the uninitiated - that is about all.   

[marvinbrown]

Verdi vs CHOPIN  ?

No Wagner? No Stravinsky? No Schoenberg? No Bartók?

The whole concept is gimmicky at best.

Thomas

  Agreed Wagner's absence is disconcerting  .....most disconcerting  .  Also I fail to see how comparisons of any kind can be made between Verdi and Chopin that would allow the viewer to choose between these two composers.  In fact I can not think of 2 composers who have less in common and come from completely different sound worlds than Verdi and Chopin!

  marvin

[Opus106]

Is this the same programme that featured Mozart v Madonna last year? I distinctly remember one show from the BBC where the advocate for WAM was mostly talking about the composer's life as Freemason and its impact on his music.

[Don]

Verdi vs CHOPIN  ?

No Wagner? No Stravinsky? No Schoenberg? No Bartók?

The whole concept is gimmicky at best.

Thomas

Perhaps, but something's better than nothing.  Some of us seem to want the "perfect" poll or competition.  If you feel that way, do your own program.

[sound67]

If you feel that way, do your own program.

Easy now, easy. I know you're the grand master of pointless composer polls, no one's going to take that title away. 

I think you're in for another walk.

Seriously, why Verdi vs Chopin? 

Thomas

[karlhenning]

  Agreed Wagner's absence is disconcerting  .....most disconcerting  .

I don't see why, Marvin . . . he was more navel-gazer than visionary . . . . 

[jochanaan]

Why do we need to listen to a BBC program?  We've got lots of people here who have very strong opinions about which composers were the great visionaries! And we're very good at debating, pointlessly or otherwise.

Now, such a debate can often go overboard with points and counterpoints , so I propose that we limit this thread to nominations for "the greatest visionary" and brief statements as to why he should be.  And shall we limit our rebuttals to three?  For extended discussions, we can start other threads or revive old ones.

So I'll start:

I nominate Edgard Varèse as the greatest visionary among composers.  More than any other early 20th-century composer, he emancipated music from the rules which, though established for good purposes, had become too limiting.  He imagined a music without bounds, and showed how it would sound.  Thanks to him and a few others like him, any sound can now become music.

[karlhenning]

Ah, so you would condition great vision with influence, Jas?

[Don]

Easy now, easy. I know you're the grand master of pointless composer polls, no one's going to take that title away. 

I think you're in for another walk.

Seriously, why Verdi vs Chopin? 

Thomas

Just got back from a walk; my wife came along this time.

There's nothing serious about Verdi vs. Chopin - it's just having a little fun, something you and a few others don't seem to get.

[Haffner]

I don't see why, Marvin . . . he was more navel-gazer than visionary . . . . 

(laughing) Air OUT that lint!

[marvinbrown]

(laughing) Air OUT that lint!

  Andy  , as hard as I am trying to promote Wagner to the other GMG members it seems that our illustrious Mr. Henning is forever immune to my marketing schemes  .  DavidRoss is the other "tough nut to crack" so to speak.  God bless them both at least they keep me "grounded"!

[Haffner]

  Andy  , as hard as I am trying to promote Wagner to the other GMG members it seems that our illustrious Mr. Henning is forever immune to my marketing schemes  .  DavidRoss is the other "tough nut to crack" so to speak.  God bless them both at least they keep me "grounded"!

I can see where people might not like Wagner much. It can be daunting for many folks to get past some of the more "recitative" parts of his operas. What I really mean is, I can't entirely blame folks for only dealing with Wagner via highlights cds and the like. I actually had to take some time out of my daily life (not some really, alot), in order to fully "get" the Wagner operas on a more inward level.

It's my opinion (and perhaps yours as well) that the last six Wagner operas, but most particularly the Ring, Tristan und Isolde, and Parsifal, are the greatest works of art in Western civilisation's history. But that really is only my opinion and nothing more. I literally marvel at the fact that, not only do I learn something new about these last six operas every time I listen to them, but in fact I learn something new about myself and society (from an Archeytpal standpoint) each time as well.

As many GmG-ers already know, Wagner chose the "fantasy" elements in order to be more broad in the definitions of what his operas meant. One can apply the plot devices (most certainly including their interplay with the musical motifs), extensive characterizations,  etc.  within the operas to multitudinal models useful in taking perspectives on the "big picture" of life.

Or one can use them to cure insomnia (laughing) 0:). To each his or her own. I certainly wouldn't want to give up Mozart, Joseph Haydn, Schumann, Grieg, LVB, Mahler, or Bruckner. But I personally would drop all of them if faced with a desert island scenario with a lifetime battery charged television, cd player and a Wagner collection to shame Sarge's. One can gain something from his music with each listen. I'm not saying other composers don't have that quality. But Wagner included the human voice most effectively as part of the orchestra...this I find worthy of my deepest admiration.

Again, this is me, and I respect others' opinions on the matter. And I like to laugh with people whom just don't seem to care for Wagner, because I hate taking anything too seriously. I noticed that when I do the latter, I end up miserable, and nothing is worth that, right?

[karlhenning]

  Andy  , as hard as I am trying to promote Wagner to the other GMG members it seems that our illustrious Mr. Henning is forever immune to my marketing schemes  .  DavidRoss is the other "tough nut to crack" so to speak.  God bless them both at least they keep me "grounded"!

Don't be disheartened, Marvin! I could never approach Wagner save with some dose of humor larger than The Great Man himself possessed.  Remember that I did greatly enjoy my initial listen to Tristan.

[Haffner]

Remember that I did greatly enjoy my initial listen to Tristan.

Hey, this is news to me! Also true, Wagner really seemed to have a problem with humor, it's practically bereft in all his operas but the incredible "Meistersinger...".

Hey, I remember that your current avatar is the same one that you had back when I first registered with GMG (was it Dec. 2006 or somethin'?Memory is getting shot...).

Great memories, thanks Karl!

[karlhenning]

Hey, this is news to me!

Yes, you must already have been taking a break at the time of my hauling in The Big Bayreuth Box, Andy!

[Haffner]

Yes, you must already have been taking a break at the time of my hauling in The Big Bayreuth Box, Andy!

lol   WAIT! The Big Bayreuth Box! I'm SO there! (cracking up now)

[jochanaan]

So, one nomination for Wagner, one for Varèse; any others?