Question on Mahler

[Chaszz]

How did Mahler as a great composer justify spending most of his time conducting, and only summers composing? He must have known that his compositions in posterity would eventually reach an amount of listeners great enough to dwarf those who attended the concerts he conducted. Was this a need for income? Or what? Did he feel his inspiration was such that summers alone was enough to satisfy it?

Can anyone imagine any of the other truly greats (except for Bach, who probably made no real distinctions among composing, performing, teaching and conducting), but say, Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn, Wagner, Brahms, whoever you will, restricting himself basically to composing only in summertime?

[techniquest]

Conducting was his job; composing was his passion. He composed many of his works in specially built composing 'huts' in beautiful scenery chosen because it was exactly how he wanted it to be. It was his summer hols - his retreat. That's maybe one reason why he managed to compose such masterpieces

[mahler10th]

Conducting was his job; composing was his passion. He composed many of his works in specially built composing 'huts' in beautiful scenery chosen because it was exactly how he wanted it to be. It was his summer hols - his retreat. That's maybe one reason why he managed to compose such masterpieces

Yes indeed.  Mahler was known as a top conductor of his day more than anything else, and that was his primary occupation.  Today, when we talk about Boulez, we think of him as a conductor - maybe in 50 years he will be better remembred and appreciated as a composer in the same way (but...er...not by me, even if I do live to 92 years old.)

[scarpia]

I don't agree that Mahler's other activities should be considered less valuable than his work as a composer.  After all, the preparation and performance of works of classical music constituted an essential part of his musical education, and must have had a strong influence on the music he wrote.  It is also not clear that other composers of the early 20th century, or the ones you mention, were able to spend a greater fraction of their time composing than Mahler did.

[greg]

Probably financial reasons. If you have to make a living, would you rather be a conductor or a milkman?

[marvinbrown]

He must have known that his compositions in posterity would eventually reach an amount of listeners great enough to dwarf those who attended the concerts he conducted. 

  Carefull there Chaszz, Mahler was a huge admirer of Wagner  0:) and spent time conducting Wagner's operas like the complete Ring Cycle. I don't have to tell you that no one can fill an opera house's seats with spectators quite like Herr Wagner  0:)!  A guaranteed income I am sure for Mahler.

  marvin

[Don]

How did Mahler as a great composer justify spending most of his time conducting, and only summers composing? He must have known that his compositions in posterity would eventually reach an amount of listeners great enough to dwarf those who attended the concerts he conducted.

What makes you think that Mahler could predict the future?

[Mark G. Simon]

What makes you think that Mahler could predict the future?

He said stuff like "My time will come".

[PSmith08]

He said stuff like "My time will come".

A bum prediction to be sure: Richard Strauss' day is not quite done.

  Carefull there Chaszz, Mahler was a huge admirer of Wagner  0:) and spent time conducting Wagner's operas like the complete Ring Cycle. I don't have to tell you that no one can fill an opera house's seats with spectators quite like Herr Wagner  0:)!  A guaranteed income I am sure for Mahler.

  marvin

I'm not entirely sure that the conflation of impresario and conductor is entirely appropriate here. I would assume that Mahler's fees at a state-subsidized theater would be the same whether he packed the house or had the crickets doubling the strings. So, in this case, Wagner's popularity, though great, is irrelevant.

[marvinbrown]

I'm not entirely sure that the conflation of impresario and conductor is entirely appropriate here. I would assume that Mahler's fees at a state-subsidized theater would be the same whether he packed the house or had the crickets doubling the strings. So, in this case, Wagner's popularity, though great, is irrelevant.

  Well then if that is the case I stand corrected.

[Don]

He said stuff like "My time will come".

Well, I stand corrected. 

[jochanaan]

EVERY great composer was also a very active performing musician, up until the 20th century.  Some, like Schumann, Tchaikovsky and Debussy, were not particularly accomplished as conductors, but they did conduct, or play an instrument, usually keyboard.  (I can't think of any who were also great singers, but I don't doubt there were some.  Schubert is said to have been a fine boy soprano, IIRC.)  Berlioz, Mendelssohn and Wagner, especially, were considered major conductors in their day, and not only of their own music.  Mahler was only doing what other musicians over the centuries have done.

The "ivory-tower" composer who doesn't himself perform is a 20th-century invention--and to some extent a mythological creature even now.  Bartók, Prokofieff, Shostakovich and (of course) Rachmaninoff were magnificent pianists; Stravinsky and Britten conducted all their major works in recordings; and a few years ago I heard Philip Glass in concert playing one of his own pieces on piano, and he was quite good! I've also heard Alan Hovhaness leading his own music on recordings.  I cannot think of any truly major composer, except possibly Varèse, who was/is not also a very accomplished performing musician.

[M forever]

  Well then if that is the case I stand corrected.

All theaters Mahler worked at where state theaters (that's why the Vienna Court Opera (Hofoper) was called the Vienna Court Opera). Except for the MET where he appeared, but not for very long.

[Chaszz]

Well, here are a few points in support of my implicit contention that Mahler might or should have devoted more time to composing, which most of the replies have been more or less in opposition to.

1. Although it is true that most composers of his time and before also conducted, he is the only one I know of who specifically confined his composing to the summer. A distinctly small fraction of the year. Wagner, a professional conductor, certainly did not confine his composing to two or three months a year. Not did any of the others mentioned in the replies, to my knowledge. So that makes Mahler a special case, IMO, perhaps a little bit of a poignant one if financial necessity was the main reason.

2. Brahms reportedly was glad when he could afford to give up conducting and pianizing (did I coin that?) and only compose. Many composers who conducted did so only sporadically, not regularly. Strauss was so facile he could probably have composed WHILE conducting (no slur on his great works whatsoever is intended).

3. As to Mahler's view of his posterity, he is recorded as having told a friend his Eighth Symphony was his "greatest so far." So he doesn't sound like a shrinking violet re his importance. I don't know how much difficulty he had getting his works performed, so I thought I'd call on the experts here for some info. I was just being lazy, I can easily read about his life. Please forgive me for my laziness. I suspect if was a financial necessity for him to conduct, although obviously he loved it and was great at it.

[eyeresist]

I'm not sure what your point is. Are you saying Mahler was a lazy bum for only composing in the summer? It's likely that he was thinking about music the whole year round. Unlike many other famous composers, he did not have to teach to make a living (as far as I know).

[max]

Perhaps Mahler ingested a great deal from conducting - aside from superfluous things like keeping body and soul together and his marriage intact - until the summer rallies when what was gleaned from a steady job became morphed and catalyzed into his own outstanding creations.

The quandary with the human race is they always have to play catch up with genius and belatedly pay in fame what they did not pay in money and we know without question MONEY supercedes ANYTHING a genius has to offer. This makes FAME and the hot air of IMMORTALITY the cheapest commodity of all!

[jochanaan]

But didn't Mahler orchestrate his compositions during his conducting "season"?  If I've remembered this correctly, it makes perfect sense: the hard "creative" work that required calm was already done, so he could concentrate on polishing and refining the "visions" he'd drafted over the summer.  (That makes it sound as if orchestration was a mere "detail" for Mahler, but of course it was anything but... )

[greg]

But didn't Mahler orchestrate his compositions during his conducting "season"?  If I've remembered this correctly, it makes perfect sense: the hard "creative" work that required calm was already done, so he could concentrate on polishing and refining the "visions" he'd drafted over the summer.  (That makes it sound as if orchestration was a mere "detail" for Mahler, but of course it was anything but... )

If he did orchestrations, then it was most likely just the manual labor of making copies or revising the orchestrations while making copies. But he obviously did have in mind the orchestra from the very beginning, as you said.......

[scarpia]

If he did orchestrations, then it was most likely just the manual labor of making copies or revising the orchestrations while making copies. But he obviously did have in mind the orchestra from the very beginning, as you said.......

This is not the way Mahler worked on his later symphonies.  They were drafted in short score during the summer (four staves with minimal indication of orchestration) and cast in orchestral form during the winter months.  This is why the Symphony #10 was left as it was.  After his work over the summer was concluded he spent the following winter working on revisions to the 9th rather than the 10th, which was left the 10th mostly in the form of sketches in short score.  The gist of it is that Mahler worked year round on his compositions, although he tended to devote the summer months to the conception of works that were elaborated later.

[Gustav]

I am starting to explore Mahler systematically for the first time, and it was because I knew that some people here know more about Mahler than I that I asked the question. It didn't make sense to me that a genius would confine his composing to the summer. When the first responses didn't clear the matter up, I sharpened the questioning by implying I thought Mahler could have composed more, in order to elicit more informative responses. I made no pretense to be an expert and was ready and willing to be persuaded otherwise. This is a forum and a place for discussion. Through it by means of successive posts, I learned that he orchestrated during the winter, which makes sense and gives me the information I sought. And fulfills the function of a forum. Obviously the people who kindly answered me saw some reason to give the tiniest sh*t and do so. There is nothing wrong with me, or with them either, thank you. 

No offense, but that information can be easily obtain via the internet. Ever heard of wikipedia.org? I mean there are endless ways to obtain information on Mahler's life, so why come to a forum to ask for that information(often unreliable), when you can easily obtain it else where?