So many Hungarian conductors!

[M forever]

By the same token we could consider Liszt to be Austrian

No. Even before 1867, when Hungary became an "independent" (haha) or, at least on paper, an equal state to Austria and both countries just "happened" to be ruled by the same sovereign (with two separate crowns), the different subject territories of the Austrian Empire were technically not part of Austria. They were ruled by the Emperor in Vienna.

And BTW, technically, the ruler over Austria was not an "Austrian Emperor". The ruler's position was that of an archbishop while the title "Emperor" referred to his presidency over the collection of German states known as the "Holy Roman Empire of German Nation" which was founded by Emperor Karl der Grosse (Charlemagne) in 800 and cancelled by Napoleon in 1806. That was the first Empire, or in German, Reich, which does not mean exactly the same in English. The meaning is more like "realm" or "domain". The German Empire 1871-1918 under the leadership of the Prussian Emperor was seen as the "Second Reich" to which the Nazis referred when they called their state 1933-45 the "Third Reich". They also envisioned it to be a "1000-year Reich" which in turn is a reference to the "First Reich" which actually lasted 1006 years (while the 1000-year estimation for the 3rd Reich was off by a few years).
So much about all the Emperors.

Anyway, even before the creation of the Austro-Hungarian double monarchy in 1867, the subject states which were ruled by either the Emperor of Austria or the King of Hungary (who was the same person for 2 1/2 centuries) were not part of Austria. Austria in itself was one of the many states of the "Holy Roman Empire of German Nation". Just to add to the confusion.

The easiest way to explain this is that you have to look at the collection of states and territories which made up the Austrian Empire as the personal possession of the Habsburg dynasty which had a very serious territory collecting habit. Austria was one of those, and the dominant one, but the rest were not part of Austria.

[Lilas Pastia]

Thanks for these most informative posts, M. Regarding the first Reich (Karl der Grosse) I'll use the name of Charlemagne (from the Latin Carolus magnus) for the following:

This past June I spent a day in Aachen, Germany, which is only 5 or 10 km away from Belgium (where I was  visiting). Aachen was Charlemagne's capital city around 800 A.D. Remains of his palace can still be seen. The Dom (cathedral) was built during his time. His tomb, relics and the imperial throne are still there (in the Dom). The Domschatz (the Cathedral  Treasure) is a fantastic museum in its own right. Such was Charlemagne's authority and fame that his concept of a Holy Roman Empire lasted for centuries even though the empire itself was dislocated after his death.

This was a weekday, and bunch after bunch of school children were duly chaperoned and instructed on the birth of the Empire and the life and times of its founder by their teachers and monitors. There was even a group of French high schoolers. They were by far the most undisciplined, unruly lot. The PA system called for silence three times during their short visit . German schoolchildren were much more to my liking: not just disciplined, but you could thell they had a keen interest in the matter. Of course, Charlemagne is the patron of schoolchildren (according to popular lore he invented public schooling).

For the faithful reader who hasn't skipped to the next post and has followed me so far , the link with this thread resides in the big chapel of the Kings of Hungary that is attached to the original Charlemagne cathedral  .. The Dom is one of the most bizarre constructions I've ever seen. Accreted to the central chapel (Charlemagne's byzantine construction) are a number of various chapels that form a rather haphazard assemblage. In the center is the octogonal Charlemagne Chapel:




Charlemagne's throne: where the Emperor sat in the beginning of the first "thousand year Reich" (note the byzantine arches)


Looking up the "octogon" (Charlemagne's chapel), with Frederic Barbarossa's chandelier (put up in 1165). Barbarossa was another Holy Roman Empire kaiser. 

And of course an Aachen visit is incomplete without the mandatory purchase of boxes and boxes of delicious Printen -  a specialty of the place (I also found them in Monschau where they claim to have the original recipe). It's a kind of gingerbread. Ever since they were born my children have loved them. :

[Dundonnell]

Great photos!

And I so agree about French schoolchildren As someone who had the pleasure of taking groups of schoolchildren round Berlin, Cracow, Auschwitz, Prague, Vienna, Budapest, Moscow, St.Petersburg, New York and Washington in the 1990s I came to recognise the characteristics of groups of children from other countries

[Lilas Pastia]

These are not my photos, but those from a Wiki article. I have many pics but still have to figure how to post them here . 

[M forever]

Do you have them on your computer?

[Lilas Pastia]

Yes I do. What do I do next?

[Dundonnell]

Underneath the box in which you type your message there is  "Additional Options". Clicjk on that and the you will get the option of attaching files from your computer. Click "Browse" and you will be directed to your computer. Locate your photos and then just attach them individually and post.

Photos may have to be resized to meet the 500 KB size limitation.

[M forever]

It's better to put the images into the post rather than attach them because then you can write text between them.

You can upload them to an image host like radioshack.us, then you get a lot of links in various formats for uses like "thumbnail for websites", "hotlink for forums" etcetc. I normally just use the link on the bottom "show image to friends". Simply copy the link, click on the icon on the "post reply" page and insert the link between the brackets. That's it.

[Lilas Pastia]

Right. I'll have to try it tomorrow. I remember having had a whole lot of trouble trying to post pics before. They always exceeded the 500 blablabits limit. At  that point I'd leave the computer to my wife to do the tailoring. Mind you, it's also my wife who selected our vacation pictures, and she has seen fit to keep only four or five from our Aachen visits (Charlemagne's chasse - reliquary - and stained glasses from the Dom). OTOH there's over 100 from the much more banal Monschau day . Very picturesque, but not on the same level of historical importance. Even the cakes in our plates were photographed .

[imperfection]

It's better to put the images into the post rather than attach them because then you can write text between them.

You can upload them to an image host like radioshack.us, then you get a lot of links in various formats for uses like "thumbnail for websites", "hotlink for forums" etcetc. I normally just use the link on the bottom "show image to friends". Simply copy the link, click on the icon on the "post reply" page and insert the link between the brackets. That's it.

You mean imageshack.us?

[M forever]

I have been to Monschau, too, it's noce but not that extremely spectacular. I bought a lot of great mustard because that's pretty much all they have there.

You mean imageshack.us?

Yes!