Henning's Headquarters

[Cato]

Whilst I can see exactly the point Scarps is making - and I had the same problem with Messiaen's terminology myself at one point - the crux of it is, Messiaen was a composer, not a mathematician. Which doesn't = me trying to excuse him for mathematical error, but which fact explains perfectly adequately, to my mind (which works similarly when it comes to musical matters, I think), how to him everything, and especially everything with a musical application, such as these rhythms and modes, was filtered through composition. The rhythms might be retrogradable, but for compositional purposes they aren't: 'this is one of those rhythms I can't use backwards' is how he would have thought of it, hence the terminology.

Precisely: therefore, the ultimate questions always are, "How does this sound?" and "Does this sound in this work make sense to me as a composer?"  The mathematical balances might work out, but not result in the sound that seems right to the composer.

[Scarpia]

Whilst I can see exactly the point Scarps is making - and I had the same problem with Messiaen's terminology myself at one point - the crux of it is, Messiaen was a composer, not a mathematician. Which doesn't = me trying to excuse him for mathematical error, but which fact explains perfectly adequately, to my mind (which works similarly when it comes to musical matters, I think), how to him everything, and especially everything with a musical application, such as these rhythms and modes, was filtered through composition. The rhythms might be retrogradable, but for compositional purposes they aren't: 'this is one of those rhythms I can't use backwards' is how he would have thought of it, hence the terminology.

My problem with Messiaen is precisely that he seems to get twisted up in these numerological puzzles, which don't make for compelling music.   The "modes of limited transposition" for instance.  What person who has dabbled with composition has not discovered and been fascinated by the whole tone scale...for a day or so.  That's how long it takes to exhaust it's possibilities and realize how limiting it is. 

[greg]

My problem with Messiaen is precisely that he seems to get twisted up in these numerological puzzles, which don't make for compelling music.   The "modes of limited transposition" for instance.  What person who has dabbled with composition has not discovered and been fascinated by the whole tone scale...for a day or so.  That's how long it takes to exhaust it's possibilities and realize how limiting it is.

I kind of felt the same way about the blues scale (and power chords in general) when I first starting learning the guitar. 

[Franco]

My problem with Messiaen is precisely that he seems to get twisted up in these numerological puzzles, which don't make for compelling music.   The "modes of limited transposition" for instance.  What person who has dabbled with composition has not discovered and been fascinated by the whole tone scale...for a day or so.  That's how long it takes to exhaust it's possibilities and realize how limiting it is.

Your opinion that Messiaen's music is not compelling is not an opinion I share. 

Concerning the whole tone scale, Debussy used this scale to great effect, leading me to deduce that the problem is not with the scale.

[Scarpia]

I kind of felt the same way about the blues scale (and power chords in general) when I first starting learning the guitar. 

Quite so, but real blues players don't limit themselves to a scale.

[karlhenning]

My problem with Messiaen is precisely that he seems to get twisted up in these numerological puzzles, which don't make for compelling music.   The "modes of limited transposition" for instance.  What person who has dabbled with composition has not discovered and been fascinated by the whole tone scale...for a day or so.  That's how long it takes to exhaust it's possibilities and realize how limiting it is.

It's a resource (and one which, as Franco notes, Debussy and others have used effectively) not a limitation.

Similarly, I have no trouble with Messiaen detailing these various resources of which he makes use.  It is clear what use he makes of them in the Quatuor, but equally clear (to my ears, at any rate) that the composer has made expert artistic use of them, and that they did not prove in any way a limitation.

[karlhenning]

. . . What person who has dabbled with composition has not discovered and been fascinated by the whole tone scale...for a day or so.  That's how long it takes to exhaust it's possibilities and realize how limiting it is.

Well, this sounds as if we should take the fact that Teresa and Saul "tried to write a twelve-tone piece," the result of which exercise was twaddle, as somehow 'defining' the exercise (or even twelve-tone writing) as inartistic.

I cannot credit the illustration, sorry : )

[Scarpia]

Well, this sounds as if we should take the fact that Teresa and Saul "tried to write a twelve-tone piece," the result of which exercise was twaddle, as somehow 'defining' the exercise (or even twelve-tone writing) as inartistic.

Fine, Debussy put some whole-tone froth on some of his works.   Are you seriously claiming that you can write a substantial body of music using the whole tone scale?  Every note is the same as every other note.  What is there to do with it, after you've gotten tired of running up and down the scales?

[karlhenning]

Fine, Debussy put some whole-tone froth on some of his works.   Are you seriously claiming that you can write a substantial body of music using the whole tone scale?  Every not is the same as every other note.  What is there to do with it, after you've gotten tired of running up and down the scales?

Well, your exaggeration is not quite what I am claiming, is it?

Nonetheless, your caricature curiositizes my compositional mind: Can one make a piece work, using [only one or the other transposition of] the whole-tone scale, and nought else?  Say, I might just try that for one number of the Cantata . . . .

[karlhenning]

Is your av a Hopper, BTW?

[Scarpia]

Is your av a Hopper, BTW?

Yes, as was the previous.  Eventually I'll cycle around to some of the the indecent ones.   

[Luke]

My problem with Messiaen is precisely that he seems to get twisted up in these numerological puzzles, which don't make for compelling music.   The "modes of limited transposition" for instance.  What person who has dabbled with composition has not discovered and been fascinated by the whole tone scale...for a day or so.  That's how long it takes to exhaust it's possibilities and realize how limiting it is.

Well, that's not an opinion I share - the very different uses the whole-tone scale is put to by Debussy (as already attested - but when he uses it, Scarps, it's hardly surface froth, it's a central part of his language - check out Voiles as the locus classicus of his use of it) and e.g. Janacek (who uses it as a kind of skewing of the major-minor scales, a way of inflecting the externalised vernacular of his his folk-like melodies with an expressive, human, internal life) attest to its effectiveness and the variety of its application. But it's a strawman argument in any case, because a) there are no pieces by Debussy or any other major composer I can think of which are entirely in the whole tone scale (the afore-mentioned Voiles is as close as Debussy gets but even here there is a central section which is pentatonic), and b) the whole tone scale is that rare thing, a single-interval scale, hence the potential lack of variety, and - NB - Messiaen almost never uses it. The other 'modes of limited transposition', the ones he actually used, contain at least two intervals, just like the major and minor scales.

[Scarpia]

Nonetheless, your caricature curiositizes my compositional mind: Can one make a piece work, using [only one or the other transposition of] the whole-tone scale, and nought else?  Say, I might just try that for one number of the Cantata . . . .[/font]

What have I done?   

[karlhenning]

You see, Scarps, where you see impossibility, I see a challenge ; )

[karlhenning]

Well, your exaggeration is not quite what I am claiming, is it?

Nonetheless, your caricature curiositizes my compositional mind: Can one make a piece work, using [only one or the other transposition of] the whole-tone scale, and nought else?  Say, I might just try that for one number of the Cantata . . . .

I mis-typed!  Should read using only [one or the other transposition of] the whole-tone scale.  Placement of that opening bracket is everything : )

[karlhenning]

I changed a couple of the chords from this draught (in the mm. 83-90 passage).  That's not all the work I've done, but I haven't generated a fresh pdf file lately.  I've got the end of the first movement in my sights.

[karlhenning]

I changed a couple of the chords from this draught (in the mm. 83-90 passage).  That's not all the work I've done, but I haven't generated a fresh pdf file lately.  I've got the end of the first movement in my sights.

In the light of recent discussion, I might mention that as that version of the piece stands, all the chords from m. 83 to m. 107 (with the exception of some activity in m. 102) are transpositions of the same tetrachord.  I don't think I had a large problem with the two which I wound up changing . . . but I felt I did want a change in those two places.

[greg]

You see, Scarps, where you see impossibility, I see a challenge ; )

I think it would have to be extremely interesting rhythmically (or, if not that, thematically?) I'm thinking, for example, of a typical Meshuggah riff- sometimes using only 2 notes, but somehow endlessly fascinating, probably because of the rhythmic technique involved.

And do you have in mind just one whole scale, with no transposition to the other whole tone scale? It would be really hard to maintain interest for several minutes with just 6 notes, though I'm sure it could be done somehow (you might need percussion!)  .

[karlhenning]

Most improbably, I found I did not need a catnap on the bus home, and got some more work done on two different sections of the first movement.  Now I'm waiting for the home PC to run its scan, and I should have some sort of pdf uploaded later this evening.

[karlhenning]

Well, I worked at it for some three hours last night, which felt great.  I cannot claim that it was the most efficient three hours' composing I've ever done, but I did get a lot of good work in.

I got more work done than is on display in the attached, which is eleven pages (bringing the piece out to m. 149);  I've actually got material plugged into the Sibelius file through to m. 176.  I expect to make some few modifications (as well as obviously adding detail) to p. 11 as it is . . . but there is so much work I shall yet apply to the subsequent measures, that it seemed like 'false advertising' if I posted that much here today.

Anyway . . . on the bus ride in this morning, I both did some 'expansive' composing, and some long-needed editing to the first nine pages.  Looking forward to continuing work this evening . . . the most serious risk will be, that I get so keen upon the task that I stay at it past my bed-time.  Shouldn't be too groggy at the office . . . .