Did Ravel make Mussorgsky famous?

[Ugh!]

the main difference is that R-K created a purely orchestral version of the music for ease of performance

enough said 

[M forever]

...which as such is totally legitimate because the choral version wasn't even meant for concert performance, but to be a part of the opera. Arranging pieces from operas and ballets for concert performance isn't something R-K came up with to "rape" Mussorgsky's music. It was a very common practice of the time. You need to get to know the various versions to put that all into context.

[knight66]

In any case Ugh, RK was not exploiting Mussorgsky's music. He was acting as a friend in lavishing time on it; to make it more appealing to the taste of the time and ensuring it was listened to, all be it, dressed in different clothes.

Mike

[Drasko]

Actually the original orchestral version is performed quite often these days and has also been recorded a number of times, and Rimsky-Korsakov's version isn't even based on that, but on another version Mussorgsky made for his opera project "Sorochinsky Fair" and the main difference is that R-K created a purely orchestral version of the music for ease of performance while that particular version also involved a choir and vocal soloist.

Interesting, I didn't know that. Was Rimsky-Korsakov aware that there already is purely orchestral version when he sat out to arrange the choral one for concert purposes?

[Ugh!]

...which as such is totally legitimate because the choral version wasn't even meant for concert performance, but to be a part of the opera. Arranging pieces from operas and ballets for concert performance isn't something R-K came up with to "rape" Mussorgsky's music. It was a very common practice of the time. You need to get to know the various versions to put that all into context.

I am aware of the different versions, in fact it was Mussorgsky's third version that was intended for the Opera. I think the following quote needs to be considered in respect to RK's reworking of the piece:

A Night on the Bare Mountain or, to give its proper title, Saint John's Night on the Bare Mountain, was inspired by a scene of a witches' sabbath in Gogol's story of St. John's Eve, and is a lurid melodrama following in the footsteps of Berlioz (finale of Symphonie Fantastique) and Liszt (Totentanz).  He wrote it in 1867, produced a second, choral version (1872) as his contribution to a projected collective opera, Mlada, and finally recast it in the form of a choral introduction for Act 3 of Sorochintsy Fair (1873). With no fewer than three versions "in the can", there was no question of Rimsky-Korsakov "completing" his friend's work - his re-working (1908) of Mussorgsky's third version, into the popular piece we all know and love, was purely for the presumptuous purpose of "correction". While we may abhor in principle the subsequent edition for Walt Disney's Fantasia, which rubbed in further salt by shovelling the melody of Schubert's Ave Maria into the framework of Rimsky-Korsakov's oh-so-cosy ending, we must remember that this final "insult" also brought Mussorgsky's name to the lips of more people than the other four versions put together.

Rimsky-Korsakov's urbane manners and taste for tasteful "fairy-tales" dictated that his would be a sanitised, "PG-rated" version, complete with a cosy bedtime mug of cocoa. Mussorgsky's original is by comparison "X-rated", and arguably the product of a nightmare following a bout of hard drinking and Gogol. If so, all its crudities and disfugurements come not from "incompetence" but from terrible experience. The key to Mussorgsky's structure lies in his programme: " [1] An underground noise of inhuman voices. Appearance of the Spirits of Darkness followed by an appearance of Satan and [2] his adoration. [3] A Black Mass. [4] Joyful dancing of the Witches' Sabbath. All of which is ended by the ringing of a church bell and the appearance of dawn".

Dramatically, there's no place for any nice, neat recapitulation: following his programme, Mussorgsky crams his hatful of horrors into a loose, four-part variational form. Following the relatively familiar sounds of the opening tumult [1], [2] is "heralded" by a sinister, bulging bass-drum roll, while [3] starts after a long pause, on eerie tremolandos. This "Black Mass" includes a parody of a "Russian Orthodox" chant (violas), which Rimsky-Korsakov presumably found inexcusably offensive, as he completely excised (or should I say "exorcised"?) it. The final section, [4], starts with a long downward slither, just one of a catalogue of spine-tingling grotesqueries. Moreover, all these nasty devils and hobgoblins retire, like Dracula to his "bed", into the nether regions at only the very last bar, dispelled by the briefest hint of church bell and dawn - Mussorgsky denies us any Good Christian Consolation to ward off the bogey-men lurking in the gloomy shadows as we troop home.

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/Programme_Notes/mussorg_bare.htm)

[M forever]

Well, you obviously hadn't been aware of these different versions yesterday, but thanks to M, google, and musicweb you now are. And thanks for sharing the article here!

Interesting, I didn't know that. Was Rimsky-Korsakov aware that there already is purely orchestral version when he sat out to arrange the choral one for concert purposes?

Dunno. But I think that's very likely. I started reading R-K's autobiography once but never got very far. I wonder if it says anything in there about that.

[Ugh!]

Well, you obviously hadn't been aware of these different versions yesterday, but thanks to M, google, and musicweb you now are. And thanks for sharing the article here!

Actually I wasn't aware that there was a pre-choral version composed by Mussorgsky, no, but my point was that RK's reworking of the choral version involved a level of censorship that to me qualifies as a musical rape on a wonderfully "raw" piece that contained the sort of "modernistic" qualities that Stravinsky's Rite would explore much later, most likely to what would have been RK's discontent had he lived to hear it....  That was my entire argument in the first post, and I wonder whether we still disagree? I think it is an oversimplification that he simply made it easier to perform, because the musical translation involves far more than assigning the choral parts to other instrument groups....

[M forever]

I would agree with what knight said. I think R-K's intentions were good, and it's not like he destroyed the other versions and replaced them with his one. Anybody interested in the various original versions can study and perform them.

[The Six]

He's not?

Mussorgsky isn't a well-known name outside of those interested in classical music.

[knight66]

Why would that be a measure? Such folk often know Pacbell. People in deepest Borneo won't know Bach or Mozart. So, surely we are talking here about fame in terms of those who have an interest in this kind of music, in which case, Mussorgsky is famous.

Mike

[(poco) Sforzando]

Mussorgsky isn't a well-known name outside of those interested in classical music.

Oh I see.

[Ugh!]

I would agree with what knight said. I think R-K's intentions were good, and it's not like he destroyed the other versions and replaced them with his one. Anybody interested in the various original versions can study and perform them.

I still find it sad that RK's version is performed and recorded far far more than Mussorgsky's own versions. In any event, the idea of making any work more appealing to the taste of the time and ensuring it is listened to is not very appealing to me. I am intrigued by the idea of wonderful works that never complied with the taste of their time and remained unknown in their time. Les Chants de Maldoror comes to mind....

[Anne]

I still find it sad that RK's version is performed and recorded far far more than Mussorgsky's own versions. In any event, the idea of making any work more appealing to the taste of the time and ensuring it is listened to is not very appealing to me. I am intrigued by the idea of wonderful works that never complied with the taste of their time and remained unknown in their time. Les Chants de Maldoror comes to mind....

If I remember correctly, Mussorgsky and R-K roomed together and constantly helped each other write his music.  R-K knew the quality of M's unfinished operas.  He composed the orchestration for them with the idea of keeping the operas before the public until such time as the public would be ready for M's own music.  I don't believe R-K ever intended that his composing would replace what M had done.

I think it is only now that the M version is beginning to be accepted by the public.  The Met has adopted M's version.  I like M's version better myself despite those gorgeous steeple bells that R-K composed.

[M forever]

It's been a while since I listened to the Sorochintsy version, but IIRC, it contains the "dawn" music, and doesn't it also contain the bells? Or OTOH, IIRC, it actually only exists as a vocal score with piano accompaniment, so that probably doesn't contain any orchestration details.

It also has to be remembered that while the original version of "Night" was actually finished, Mussorgsy sketched out and drafted, but rarely ever really finished most of his projects, and it probably didn't help either that he drannk himself to death at a fairly young age. I think those around him, including R-K, recognized his extraordinary genius but as they were themselves striving to find new forms for Russian music to replace the prevalent forms of "high culture" which were almost exclusively imported from the West at that time, they were less interested in bits and pieces of genius flying around than in finshed, rounded-off pieces. That we today are more interested in the raw genius displayed in many of Mussorgsky's more or less finished compositions does not mean that the people of his own time who had other ultimate goals and priorities couldn't see the quality of his work.

[Anne]

It's been a while since I listened to the Sorochintsy version, but IIRC, it contains the "dawn" music, and doesn't it also contain the bells? Or OTOH, IIRC, it actually only exists as a vocal score with piano accompaniment, so that probably doesn't contain any orchestration details.

It also has to be remembered that while the original version of "Night" was actually finished, Mussorgsky sketched out and drafted, but rarely ever really finished most of his projects, and it probably didn't help either that he drannk himself to death at a fairly young age. I think those around him, including R-K, recognized his extraordinary genius but as they were themselves striving to find new forms for Russian music to replace the prevalent forms of "high culture" which were almost exclusively imported from the West at that time, they were less interested in bits and pieces of genius flying around than in finshed, rounded-off pieces. That we today are more interested in the raw genius displayed in many of Mussorgsky's more or less finished compositions does not mean that the people of his own time who had other ultimate goals and priorities couldn't see the quality of his work.

The beautiful steeple bells' music was from Boris Godunov.

The "Dawn" music is the overture to Khovanshchina.  This opera includes an instrumental piece, The Dance of the Persian Slaves which is SO beautiful!  Everyone should hear that gorgeous music.

Sorochinsky Fair has very little music composed.  People warned me it was not worth the effort to locate a copy of it.  I loved M's music so much that I hoped there might an aria or whatever.  The people who warned me were right.

Have you heard M's Songs and Dances of Death?  They are beautiful and so well written.  IMHO those songs rival Schubert's.  There is a Russian baritone, Dmitri Hvorotovsky, that Gergiev helped get established in the west.  The ladies think he is quite special.  Anyway he sings those songs very well.  I like Boris Christoff's recording of them also; that recording is from EMI's Great Recordings of the Century.  It also includes other songs - The Nursery and Sunless.  I am just learning these other songs now.

"That we today are more interested in the raw genius displayed in many of Mussorgsky's more or less finished compositions does not mean that the people of his own time who had other ultimate goals and priorities couldn't see the quality of his work."

I agree.  You're right.  I didn't state that very well.

[M forever]

By "dawn music" I didn't mean the prelude to Khovanshchina ("Dawn over the Moscow River"), I meant the ending of "Night" as heard in R-K's version. IIRC, that is already there in the later drafts by Mussorgsky, so it wasn't something that R-K came up with and tacked on to his version. That end section also contains bells which was what I referred to. It is rather close in athmosphere and melodic gestus to that prelude, so I have no problems believing it is authentic Mussorgsky material.

I have the Songs and Dances of Death with Hvorostovsky and the St.Petersburg Philharmonic conducted by Temirkanov which is a live recording from the Proms. I don't really care what "the ladies" think about him, but that recording is very good indeed. He also made one with Gergiev which I haven't heard. Incidentally, the orchestration of the songs is by Shostakovich - I hope Ugh! won't hold that against DSCH.

[Ugh!]

He he I'm straight with DSCH 

[Anne]

By "dawn music" I didn't mean the prelude to Khovanshchina ("Dawn over the Moscow River"), I meant the ending of "Night" as heard in R-K's version. IIRC, that is already there in the later drafts by Mussorgsky, so it wasn't something that R-K came up with and tacked on to his version. That end section also contains bells which was what I referred to. It is rather close in athmosphere and melodic gestus to that prelude, so I have no problems believing it is authentic Mussorgsky material.

Are you referring to "Night on Bald Mountain?"  What recording would you recommend?  I would like to hear what you are talking about.

[quote author=M I have the Songs and Dances of Death with Hvorostovsky and the St.Petersburg Philharmonic conducted by Temirkanov which is a live recording from the Proms. I don't really care what "the ladies" think about him, but that recording is very good indeed. He also made one with Gergiev which I haven't heard. Incidentally, the orchestration of the songs is by Shostakovich - I hope Ugh! won't hold that against DSCH.
[/quote]

I understand Shostakovich also orchestrated Khovanshchina.  Have you heard it?  I keep looking for a copy but so far have been unsuccessful.

[M forever]

Are you referring to "Night on Bald Mountain?" 

Well, uh...yes...that's what we have been talking about for over a page now...

What recording would you recommend?  I would like to hear what you are talking about.

Do you mean of Mussorgsky's two versions or of R-K's?

[Anne]

Well, uh...yes...that's what we have been talking about for over a page now...

I didn't go back and check the reference.  I'd made an error in identifying the "Dawn" music and just wanted to verify this music.  Have been so interested in the presidential campaign that I hardly have time to come here.  In 2 weeks it will be over.

/quote]

I've heard the music but do not have a CD of it and don't know which of the 3 versions is best.  Do you have a recommendation?