John Cage (1912-92)

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

I am not a huge fan of Roaratorio to be perfectly honest.

I should check out The Seasons again though because I don't know it very well at all. I listened to it once years ago and thought it was pretty cool back then. Do you have a recommended recording or performance?

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

I will get to that shortly. Currently I am listening to Apartment House 1776 which is a densely textured composition in stark contrast to 101. It is polystylistic in an interesting way; singers which are representative of various traditions and religions in the US at the time sing the music of their respective traditions on top of one another. There is certainly more of a chamber music feel to this composition in that the instrumentalists and singers perform very audibly different music from one another that one can hear individual solo lines. I am really warming to this music more and more as the piece progresses and develops texturally and thematically. Changes in the music are fairly slow, which is very nice because I am enjoying more slow paced music currently.

[snyprrr]

what do you think of Cage's 'middle period' works? I can't say I know much of what he did then and what I have heard hasn't been something I have connected with as much as his works from the 80s and 90s.

I am considering most all of these Composers's "Middle Period" to be 1972-1981. 1972 clears the cobwebs of the 60s out (please, just witness EVERY Avant Composer's output here), and, at least in The New York School's case, 1981 is the Rothko Death Year, which apparently effected them all. Just look at Cage and Feldman's ouvre, and how they- BAM!!- just change up right there in 1982.

Still, with Feldman, I consider his Mid-Period to be @1973-4 to 1976... which I find his most boring period, which I think Cage then later improved upon with the NumberPieces.

I'm listening to Two6 right now, I'll be putting 101 and The Seasons on after 
Cage and Feldman's orchestral works have always fascinated me but I admit that I haven't yet really dived in head first yet 

Do you hear Feldman in the beginning of Two6?

I'm giving Apartment House 1776 a go right now! 

Edit near end of work:
One of the things that has crossed my mind listening to it, is that it vaguely reminds me of Charles Ives (but it's not something Ives would ever compose though) 

I listened to this last night too, I thought I would hate it but it is quite charming. As a one-off it's quite a masterpiece. Very Ivesian...

I will get to that shortly. Currently I am listening to Apartment House 1776 which is a densely textured composition in stark contrast to 101. It is polystylistic in an interesting way; singers which are representative of various traditions and religions in the US at the time sing the music of their respective traditions on top of one another. There is certainly more of a chamber music feel to this composition in that the instrumentalists and singers perform very audibly different music from one another that one can hear individual solo lines. I am really warming to this music more and more as the piece progresses and develops texturally and thematically. Changes in the music are fairly slow, which is very nice because I am enjoying more slow paced music currently.

surprising, wasn't it?

'101' is a nice short pop, too. Why this isn't programmed with Feldman... Sounds like 'Orchestra' sort of.




Cage's style seems to be trying to catch up to Feldman starting in the mid-70s...

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

I wonder if Mirror Image enjoys all these Cage works....many of them remind me of his listening habits.

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

Snyprrr, I started a top 5 Cage works poll in the polling station. I'd be interested as to your choices if you're willing to have a go at it.

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,26118.0.html

[snyprrr]

I did what you're doing myself, long, long, loooong ago .. it's how I come to my conclusions. You have to sort of immerse yourself so that you can talk about it. With his stuff, it's easy. In fact, I have many old Cage discs and probably a few pieces of old vinyl in the house somewhere, stashed away in a box ..

Yea, I guess Cage is like the end of the line in a way. I still find so much of it mid-20th century quackery, but I find it humorous how Cage almost HAS to start writing "regular avant garde music" towards the end (which, frankly, is much better than the "softening" of others such as Lutoslawski).

Oh, and... reeeeally, no one has mentioned any impact by the discovery of Scelsi. That was around 1986, - perhaps with the death of Feldman, and with the discovery of Scelsi, the future path became clear?



Meanwhile, on space station KHS, the 'Helikopter Quartett' is taking shape. OK,- I'll give you that KHS seemed still intent on "engaging" people, whereas it seems more that Cage wants a more "oooommm-ish" reaction from people....?


Still, I see the same facets of the Luciferian Sound in both- KHS overtly, Cage doing his best to remain unaware? In opposition to that other thread- I don't think any MAN is the greatest Composer since LvB--- it is the "spirituality" that has invaded Composers's minds from KHS to Taverner to Cage to Part - even Ferneyhough's music comes off as inspired by the "higher things"...

It is all the Musik of the Illumminnistas, the Majjickke -ael People.... that which shall not be named...








And then there's Boulez in a corner by himself...

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

snyprrr you gotta listen to more Boulez!!!!!!

[snyprrr]

Snyprrr, I started a top 5 Cage works poll in the polling station. I'd be interested as to your choices if you're willing to have a go at it.

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,26118.0.html

LOL- your choices come from more exposure- I can see how you're right, though!! The big revelations right now have been:

Two4 (sho version)

Two2 (Mode version @74mins.)

Seven (along with the other MIXED ensemble pieces like 13, 14,....)

Freeman Etudes
Etudes Australes/Etudes Borealis
Music of Changes
Music for Piano 1-85
Music Walk
Winter Music
Solo

the "... for a..." series

Variations I-VIII

101
30 Pieces for Five Orchestras
Etcetera/ 2/4 Etcetera
30 Pieces for String Quartet
Four

'Music for _____' series

snyprrr you gotta listen to more Boulez!!!!!!

I HAAAVE!!!!

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

What do you like about Music of Changes???

[snyprrr]

What do you like about Music of Changes???

ouch- you got me!!

Good one, - I just put that in there because I felt I HAD to. I was going to get Joste/Mode for super cheap, and then, poof, it was gone. I dunno, when I sampled on YT I thought I liked the blizzard of notes, but when I listened again I was like where are the blizzards I thought I heard the first time??

But, do tell me what there's not to like- I'm just thrilled you called me out... lol, I have no idea what I'm talking about with the Piano Music pretty much- still awaiting Schleiermacher's 'Australes', which would be my first really blind Cage attempt- I thought 'Music of Changes' and 'Australes' were both Cage's "blizzard"  pieces.

So, thoroughly convince me missing out of the Joste was for my best interest!!!

My other considerations are the Schleiermacher 'Music for Piano 1-85' and his 'Piano Pieces:1950-1960', which includes 'Winter Music', '7 Haiku', 'Music Walk', 'Solo', etc. BUT, the reviewer wished that Schleiermacher was a little more imaginative in his "treatments"- he says Steffen is pretty much a "straight up" Cagean, using no contact mics or anything too "out there" for the performance pieces. Maybe that set is too dry for me?


I'm trying to get the Cage bug out without bleeding $$$ $$$ $$$.....lol....


I am glad that, out of 10 Volumes of "Complete Piano Music", I'm really only interested in the wacky stuff 1952-1962, the 'Australes', and sooome of the 'One' Cycle. (and, I thought I was interested in 'Music of Changes'- I do want to hear why you don't like them)

But, Cage's Works List makes Feldman's look like Webern's!!

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

I don't 'not like' Music of Changes! In fact, I really do like both the sound of the work and the idea behind it. I just think it's a little long....

Which is maybe a bit hypocritical of me because I love some of his longer number pieces in particular. I think it comes down to the pacing...in Music of Changes, a lot happens and the music is constantly constantly going on and on, but there are many interesting little ideas and sonorities even in the first minute of music which I feel could have been expanded upon and explored in greater detail under a great big musical microscope. Taking a small idea and turning it into somethi grand. Maybe a bit like how Boulez elaborated upon Incises with Sur Incises if you get my drift!

Music of Changes has many brief and wonderful musical motifs which come and go just a bit too quickly for me to call it a 'favourite'

[snyprrr]

Alrighty, then.

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks." ~ Shakespeare; Hamlet

Best regards.

Hey, it's all fun and games until someone slips on the mustard 0:)

I don't 'not like' Music of Changes! In fact, I really do like both the sound of the work and the idea behind it. I just think it's a little long....

Which is maybe a bit hypocritical of me because I love some of his longer number pieces in particular. I think it comes down to the pacing...in Music of Changes, a lot happens and the music is constantly constantly going on and on, but there are many interesting little ideas and sonorities even in the first minute of music which I feel could have been expanded upon and explored in greater detail under a great big musical microscope. Taking a small idea and turning it into somethi grand. Maybe a bit like how Boulez elaborated upon Incises with Sur Incises if you get my drift!

Music of Changes has many brief and wonderful musical motifs which come and go just a bit too quickly for me to call it a 'favourite'

I don't 'not like' Music of Changes! In fact, I really do like both the sound of the work and the idea behind it. I just think it's a little long....

Which is maybe a bit hypocritical of me because I love some of his longer number pieces in particular. I think it comes down to the pacing...in Music of Changes, a lot happens and the music is constantly constantly going on and on, but there are many interesting little ideas and sonorities even in the first minute of music which I feel could have been expanded upon and explored in greater detail under a great big musical microscope. Taking a small idea and turning it into somethi grand. Maybe a bit like how Boulez elaborated upon Incises with Sur Incises if you get my drift!

Music of Changes has many brief and wonderful musical motifs which come and go just a bit too quickly for me to call it a 'favourite'

um,... well,... that didn't really talk me out of it, lol!!

Who do you like?

Tudor
Sultan- she gets sloppy towards the end???
Henck- sound issues?- change of venue?
Chen??
Schleiermacher- too slow???
Kubera- sound to bold/close??
Joste
Drury (Book1 only)

If Schleiermacher is "fatally flawed" as one reviewer put it, that only leaves Joste and Chen?? as totally modern readings. My theory is that it will receive a spate of new recordings shortly, Aimard? Nonkin? Takahashi? Drury? Henck?


anyhow...


So, is 'OneFIVE' just "twice as long" as 'One'? And then, is 'OneTWO' four times longer, but still the same piece? Or are all three different pieces?? And 'One7' ......

Margaret Leng Tan's 'One2' sounds a lot different than Liebner's, no? And much shorter... Tan also sounds like one of the most brutal realizations of a NumberPiece I've heard... I like it!!

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

I've only heard David Tudor's recording...........

[snyprrr]

Music of changes is one of those Cage works that I like the idea of it but haven't spent much time with at all, so I can't comment.

But who doesn't like the I Ching! 

What do you think of Atlas Eclipticalis?

What Cage Piano Music do you like, preferably post-1952?

[Mandryka]

Anyone know anything about this, Fraction, a sequence of 7 pieces for piano, colourful and varied, I rather like it. When and why  did he write it? what sort of indeterminacy? Found on spotify.

[snyprrr]

Anyone know anything about this, Fraction, a sequence of 7 pieces for piano, colourful and varied, I rather like it. When and why  did he write it? what sort of indeterminacy? Found on spotify.

As I understand it, every part of 'Atlas Eclipticalis' can be played separately, as a "solo", hence, you have a 'Solo' for trombone, 'Solo' for piano, and so on. I'm not really sure how it works, but, Eberhard Blum has recorded "all" the flute parts under the heading 'Atlas Eclipticalis', whilst Levine on DG, I suppose, plays "all" the "parts" of the piece as an Orchestral Work. Apparently, too, the pieces can last from @15mins. to 90mins. - if played "with" 'Winter Music'.


I was just checking out the 'Atlas Eclipticalus with Winter Music' on YT, the Mode recording which lasts @80mins. It appears here that "e.v.e.r.y.s.i.n.g.l.e.n.o.t.e." of the piece (WITH Winter Music) is played one-note-at-a-time- so that it appears you have 90mins. of single, widely space tones surrounded by yawning abysses of silence.

i MUCH PREFER Winter Music for 20 Pianos, please. Perfect for playing during a snow!

[snyprrr]

'Imaginary Landscape No.1' is OBVIOUSLY where Marius Constant got 'The Twilight Zone Theme' from. Mr.Spock'sEyebrows

Written in 1939, this seems like quite ahead of its time, and very alien-world sounding, even before the '50s UFO craze. It seems that the later 'Imaginary Landscapes 4-5' retreat into strict radios and tape manipulation. Here in the first one, percussionists are required to capture one of the most eerie and desolate scores one can imagine.

[Mandryka]

As I understand it, every part of 'Atlas Eclipticalis' can be played separately, as a "solo", hence, you have a 'Solo' for trombone, 'Solo' for piano, and so on. I'm not really sure how it works, but, Eberhard Blum has recorded "all" the flute parts under the heading 'Atlas Eclipticalis', whilst Levine on DG, I suppose, plays "all" the "parts" of the piece as an Orchestral Work. Apparently, too, the pieces can last from @15mins. to 90mins. - if played "with" 'Winter Music'.


I was just checking out the 'Atlas Eclipticalus with Winter Music' on YT, the Mode recording which lasts @80mins. It appears here that "e.v.e.r.y.s.i.n.g.l.e.n.o.t.e." of the piece (WITH Winter Music) is played one-note-at-a-time- so that it appears you have 90mins. of single, widely space tones surrounded by yawning abysses of silence.

i MUCH PREFER Winter Music for 20 Pianos, please. Perfect for playing during a snow!

Have you heard "four" ? not the early string quartet in four parts but the late quartet just called Four. It is good. Arditti do it brilliantly.

That Liebner album, Fractions, is also exceptional. It is misleading to say it's piano solo, there's loads of unexpected gurgling eating noises à la Licht Klavierstuke etc.

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

Yeah, the real thing about being a John Cage fan is that there could be pieces where there are some versions which one much prefers to others. A lot of his music can be wildly different depending on the decisions made in the performance of it and sometimes there are certain interpretations that simply just don't work for some people.

[snyprrr]

Have you heard "four" ? not the early string quartet in four parts but the late quartet just called Four. It is good. Arditti do it brilliantly.

That Liebner album, Fractions, is also exceptional. It is misleading to say it's piano solo, there's loads of unexpected gurgling eating noises à la Licht Klavierstuke etc.

Four

Yes, I've had the Arditti's "other" version on the Montaigne disc... only 20mins., but, yea, it's pretty solidly Waldenesque.

Four6

This is the one that "could be anything" apparently... need to hear more versions of this.

Four4

This is the most boring, 75min., percussion quartet of all time... I'm sorry, I will "try" again, but, oy vey, do I need just a little more here...

Four5

Saxophone Quartet... awaiting...

Yeah, the real thing about being a John Cage fan is that there could be pieces where there are some versions which one much prefers to others. A lot of his music can be wildly different depending on the decisions made in the performance of it and sometimes there are certain interpretations that simply just don't work for some people.

I just compared Drury's and Liebner's 'One'. Drury does a lot more "arranging", having lots of long silences and then bunching up the material to produce some semblance of progressions... Liebner just plays the notes/chords one after another with no real silences separating the events. I could tell a lot by the last minute: Drury manages to contrust a really cool "ending". whereas Liebner. again, plays the notes in somewhat regular succession, mitigating against an "ending feel".

Here I think Drury really does the job, and Liebner... I was expecting a lot more from her. Drury really exploits the overtones, with chords crashing into each other; Liebner has no real overtone fun. Will try 'One5' next.



Just popped for Vols. 3/4 of 'A Cage of Saxophones'... with 'Fontana Mix' and 'Cartridge Music'... let's see if I can handle it...

there's loads of unexpected gurgling eating noises à la Licht Klavierstuke etc.

mmm... ok, THAT'S good to know beforehand... nothing can make me throw stuff quite like unexpected vocalizations in piano repertoire!!!

I wooould prefer Drury to Liebner in the 'One' series, though, perhaps... check his Mode recital out...