John Cage (1912-92)

snyprrr · August 23, 2016, 07:07:00 AM

I still want to know what you think of the hours long 'Atlas', with one-note-at-a-time frustration just around the corner...

I used to have the Wergo, w/'Concert for Piano'... I don't know why I sold it, money? What about the Levine?

I think I'm closing in on this phase of my CageResearch. I know somewhat what I'm dealing with, and the pieces, and the methods... what I like and don't...

I AM finding more things in the Early Music, like 'Imaginary Landscape No.1', but, generally, I'm not into his "primitive" phase... all the ProtoEarthDay stuff... eh...mmm...

Mandryka · August 23, 2016, 09:07:57 AM

The truth is I don't like Cage's music for orchestras, so I won't comment on atlas,

Re Four, the version I have lasts for over half an hour, in the Arditti's collected Cage, so yours must have been very different.

A question about One. Was it written in the same notation as the etudes? what does it look like on the page? This could start to explain why you're hearing big interpretation differences. Liebner, I think, is very serious about making the music sound free from events, landmarks for the ear to hook on to. And with her the piano always sounds beautiful. That was the approach I think she took in the etudes, or at least that was the result of the approach. Listening not to her playing One and it's making me wonder what the point of it is - how it's saying anything different from any other Cage piano music. This is a problem I often have with Cage and Feldman.

Drury seems to be putting some long rests in there. I wonder what that's about. And the piano sounds less smooth, again I wonder why - is it deliberate.

snyprrr · August 23, 2016, 04:35:41 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on August 23, 2016, 09:07:57 AM
The truth is I don't like Cage's music for orchestras, so I won't comment on atlas, I thought '101' was a nice, short work that anyone could "like". I liked the Scelsi-like stasis of '74' (ECM),... 20 Pieces?,... but, yea, I don't want to overburden the answer.

Re Four, the version I have lasts for over half an hour, in the Arditti's collected Cage, so yours must have been very different. Maybe the rests are just shorter? Maybe yours is on YT.....

A question about One. Was it written in the same notation as the etudes? what does it look like on the page? This could start to explain why you're hearing big interpretation differences. Liebner, I think, is very serious about making the music sound free from events, landmarks for the ear to hook on to. And with her the piano always sounds beautiful. That was the approach I think she took in the etudes, or at least that was the result of the approach. Listening not to her playing One and it's making me wonder what the point of it is I don't see the point in making Cage sound any more anonymous than the music already is- isn't it all about the "art-less-ness" of it all? So, for her to make NO "signposts" (and to do so willfully) harenks unto a certain mindset to me - how it's saying anything different from any other Cage piano music. This is a problem I often have with Cage and Feldman.

Drury seems to be putting some long rests in there. I wonder what that's about. And the piano sounds less smooth, again I wonder why - is it deliberate. I do think his rests are... exceptionally luxurious... just long enough to make you start thinking about the mind behind them, but, thankfully, there is somewhat of a payoff. I do think the ruff-n-ready piano timbre is Drury showing us that Cage doesn't have to be "pretty"- it reminds me of those big loud interruptions in Feldman (that almost seem to ruin the piece for me sometimes)- but I think also, the label, Mode, are reeeally big on capturing piano timbre, and Drury is setting up clashing chords so the recording can capture all the harmonic fun. You'll notice how Liebner does none of this. Drury is very daring and cool, but I wouldn't want to meditate to his Cage.

THERE - IS- A......."RIGHT" WAY,... AND perhaps... a "wrong" way.

[/quote

Is it better to respond outside of the Quote, or inside?

Listening to 'Four' now... just clouds passing...]

nathanb · August 23, 2016, 05:59:43 PM

Snyprrr, while I agree with your general description of Liebner's interpretations, I'd say that the whole reason she seems less concerned with variation over time is that her entire interpretation is more concerned with the resonance of the pieces. You can tell from her general selection of Cage pieces: she prefers Cage at his most meditative, and, for her, clustering up the chance instances would not best serve that purpose, imo.

Not saying you have to like it, just pointing out that semblance of logic that I perceive. I generally find Schleiermacher to be consistently to be my liking, no matter what era of Cage he's drawing from.

Mandryka · August 24, 2016, 01:51:23 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on August 23, 2016, 04:35:41 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 23, 2016, 09:07:57 AM
The truth is I don't like Cage's music for orchestras, so I won't comment on atlas, I thought '101' was a nice, short work that anyone could "like". I liked the Scelsi-like stasis of '74' (ECM),... 20 Pieces?,... but, yea, I don't want to overburden the answer.

Re Four, the version I have lasts for over half an hour, in the Arditti's collected Cage, so yours must have been very different. Maybe the rests are just shorter? Maybe yours is on YT.....

A question about One. Was it written in the same notation as the etudes? what does it look like on the page? This could start to explain why you're hearing big interpretation differences. Liebner, I think, is very serious about making the music sound free from events, landmarks for the ear to hook on to. And with her the piano always sounds beautiful. That was the approach I think she took in the etudes, or at least that was the result of the approach. Listening not to her playing One and it's making me wonder what the point of it is I don't see the point in making Cage sound any more anonymous than the music already is- isn't it all about the "art-less-ness" of it all? So, for her to make NO "signposts" (and to do so willfully) harenks unto a certain mindset to me - how it's saying anything different from any other Cage piano music. This is a problem I often have with Cage and Feldman.

Drury seems to be putting some long rests in there. I wonder what that's about. And the piano sounds less smooth, again I wonder why - is it deliberate. I do think his rests are... exceptionally luxurious... just long enough to make you start thinking about the mind behind them, but, thankfully, there is somewhat of a payoff. I do think the ruff-n-ready piano timbre is Drury showing us that Cage doesn't have to be "pretty"- it reminds me of those big loud interruptions in Feldman (that almost seem to ruin the piece for me sometimes)- but I think also, the label, Mode, are reeeally big on capturing piano timbre, and Drury is setting up clashing chords so the recording can capture all the harmonic fun. You'll notice how Liebner does none of this. Drury is very daring and cool, but I wouldn't want to meditate to his Cage.

THERE - IS- A......."RIGHT" WAY,... AND perhaps... a "wrong" way.

[/quote

Is it better to respond outside of the Quote, or inside?

Listening to 'Four' now... just clouds passing...]

Re Liebner, I bet she would argue that the people who put the musical events, signposts, in there, are being the wilful ones. In the case of the etudes, her idea, I think, is that the music should be the aural equivalent of watching the night sky with stars. I've heard Cage-eans use the word "aggressive" to describe approaches which impose a structure on the music - people who make the etudes into duets for two hands, that sort of thing.

My problem with Liebner's approach, as I've said so many times before, is that it all sounds the same. And if it all sounds the same, why did he write so much? it can't be right to make it all so similar, it turns Cage into the biggest gas bag of a composer ever.

(becoming very addicted to Four. You know this

- Qui aimes-tu le mieux, homme enigmatique, dis? ton père, ta mère, ta soeur ou ton frère?
- Je n'ai ni père, ni mère, ni soeur, ni frère.
- Tes amis?
-Vous vous servez là d'une parole dont le sens m'est resté jusqu'à ce jour inconnu.
- Ta patrie?
- J'ignore sous quelle latitude elle est située.
- La beauté?
- Je l'aimerais volontiers, déesse et immortelle.
- L'or?
- Je le hais comme vous haïssez Dieu.
- Eh! qu'aimes-tu donc, extraordinaire étranger?
- J'aime les nuages... les nuages qui passent... là-bas... là-bas... les merveilleux nuages!

)

Mandryka · August 24, 2016, 01:54:10 AM

Quote from: nathanb on August 23, 2016, 05:59:43 PM
Snyprrr, while I agree with your general description of Liebner's interpretations, I'd say that the whole reason she seems less concerned with variation over time is that her entire interpretation is more concerned with the resonance of the pieces. You can tell from her general selection of Cage pieces: she prefers Cage at his most meditative, and, for her, clustering up the chance instances would not best serve that purpose, imo.

Not saying you have to like it, just pointing out that semblance of logic that I perceive. I generally find Schleiermacher to be consistently to be my liking, no matter what era of Cage he's drawing from.

I think it's less that she's concerned with Cage at his most meditative. It's rather that she makes some Cage pieces sound meditative. But not all - do you think that Fractions as she plays it is meditative (some of the later ones) - I'm not sure.

snyprrr · August 24, 2016, 08:07:20 AM

Quote from: nathanb on August 23, 2016, 05:59:43 PM
Snyprrr, while I agree with your general description of Liebner's interpretations, I'd say that the whole reason she seems less concerned with variation over time is that her entire interpretation is more concerned with the resonance of the pieces. You can tell from her general selection of Cage pieces: she prefers Cage at his most meditative, and, for her, clustering up the chance instances would not best serve that purpose, imo.

Not saying you have to like it, just pointing out that semblance of logic that I perceive. I generally find Schleiermacher to be consistently to be my liking, no matter what era of Cage he's drawing from.

Oooo... we're cookin' with gas now, eh?!!

Isn't it great to have a conversation?!!

Liebner- yea, I can see that she has an "agenda"... I can see how people with the more "composed" performances may be accused of willfulness, but, yea, that willfulness could be at the service of EITHER a more "aggressive" or "meditative" stance. Both, then, could be accused... but... then... what would be the "correct" way?

See how all the "freedom" seems to generate fascism? So now we have arguments about the "correct road to freedom".

I BELIEVE this conversation could absolutely be translated to a political one- that, "how you play Cage's 'freedoms' determines what kind of political mind you have"...

So, Liebner's a communist because she wants every.single.note.to.be.just.as.important.as.every.other.one.

Drury wants to bunch things together (regardless of compatibility?) and separate those "things" from other things by a great distance... I don't know what that makes him...

I mean, isn't this a valid interpretation of a music supposedly so "free"?

It's like, on the one hand "hey, I don't give a f what you do to my music..." BUT "just don't do THAT!!"

"I love all people, but you're a hater and must die"

Is Tudor then just a soldier "following orders"

??

WHO IS THE MOST WILLFUL CAGE PERFORMER OF ALL TIME?

??

BACK TO DRURY:

One thing about that Drury 'One'. After a long silence, those snippets of music come across as vast tops of mountains in the distance... then a long pause... and then again, rising up out of nowhere is another mountain peak...

I think Drury is quite a genius with the extended silence thing... here it's ok, but I don't want it in every interpretation. Hopefully, Drury's approach is different for each work. As you have alluded to, apparently Liebner takes the same approach with all her Cage.

AND, ISN'T HER AUSTRALES JUST A TAD SLOW??? 4CDs compared to the Italian guy's 2? (Schleiemchr 3)

I have to give Drury some credit for making more bracing piano tones, making "beauty" veeeeery subjective. Mandryka thinks all of Liebner's beauty is in the service of a more dullish/even approach.

But if we turn to Cage's "Asian-ness"... BOTH WAYS appear to be Asian: the bracing dissonance mimics those rough shakahachu tones, whereas the Liebner "mush soup" seems to represent that "it's all good" Asian way of thinking....

sorry if my choice of words is crude... hopefully you know what I'm trying to say

Thanks to both of you for taking this Drury/Liebner/Schleiermacher Challenge seriously!!!

OH- nathab-

CONCERNING SCHLEIERMACHER:

It does seem as though MDG have the piano image just three centimeters farther away than, say, any Mode artist. For Late Feldman, this produces just wondrous results. For Cage, I haven't received either the 'Australes' or 'MfP 1-85' yet. BUT, I heard his 'Daughters of the Lonesome Isle', and, compared to Leng Tan's Technicolor recording (NewAlbion), his does seem just a tad recessed in the imaging (meaning, at a certain point, if you continue turning up the volume, it will NOT get much louder- it's "stuck" in its own bath water (not necessarily a bad thing)).

So, I do wonder about how the MDGs will hit me.

What do you think of his volume '1950-1960', with all the really hardcore stuff (Water Music, Winter Music, Music Walk, SOLO,... all those little one-minute pieces...) . A reviewer said he could've been a little more creative here, using maybe clip mics or something...

anyhow,... no big whoop there....

snyprrr · August 24, 2016, 08:16:52 AM

Just ordered the Martine Joste 'Music of Changes'. This will complete my current BuyingSeason for the year. I will HAVE to be done with Cage right now no matter what I think. So, here's my Cage:

1) trombone 'SOLO' (BIS- Christian Lindberg)

2) 'Five3' (Vanguard- Fulkerson/Mondriaan)

3) 'Four' (AuvididMontaigne- Arditti)

4) 'Bacchanale' (Argo-Feinberg)

NEW

5) 'Five', 'Seven', 'Thirteen' (Mode)

6) 'Two2' for 2Pianos (Mode)

7) 'A Cage of Saxophones Vol.1': 'Five', 'Five4', 'Four5', 'Ryoanji', 'Hymnkus'

'A Cage of Saxophones Vols. 3/4': 'Four6', 'One7', 'Sculptures Musicales', 'Fontana Mix', 'Cartridge Music', party pieces

9) Schleiermacher 'Etudes Australes'

10) Schleiermacher 'Music for Piano 1-85'

11) 'Music of Changes' (Mode- Martine Joste)

honorable mention: 'Two4' for violin/sho or violin/piano (Mode-Arditti)

Wow- thanks not bad, eh? OK, now I can rest?

??

Mandryka · August 24, 2016, 08:20:31 AM

The most wilful Cage pianist is Claudio Crismani - what he does is accessible to people who don't like the real thing.
Liebner's principle is that the duration of each étude should be the same - about 7 minutes. Apparently you can deduce this from the score, I think it's something to do with the physical length of each piece, but don't ask me how. Then, apparently, once you set the pulse of the opening bars, there is apparently very little freedom. Again, don't ask me the details, these are just things I've picked up from pianists who play Cage.

(Started to listen to Arditti playing the 44 Harmonies today.)

snyprrr · August 24, 2016, 10:44:48 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on August 24, 2016, 08:20:31 AM
The most wilful Cage pianist is Claudio Crismani - what he does is accessible to people who don't like the real thing.
Liebner's principle is that the duration of each étude should be the same - about 7 minutes. Apparently you can deduce this from the score, I think it's something to do with the physical length of each piece, but don't ask me how. Then, apparently, once you set the pulse of the opening bars, there is apparently very little freedom. Again, don't ask me the details, these are just things I've picked up from pianists who play Cage.

(Started to listen to Arditti playing the 44 Harmonies today.)

No, that's very interesting. Thanks for the Claudio tip!

Just got Schleiermacher's "1-85"... CAN SOMEONE TELL ME- was this originally released in a double-wide, or a slim-line jewel box? I hate the thought of losing a superfluous insert!!

Also 'Sax 1' today... oh goody!!! Listening session commences around 4:23... LOL!!!!

nathanb · August 24, 2016, 12:17:24 PM

Quote from: snyprrr on August 24, 2016, 08:07:20 AM
Oooo... we're cookin' with gas now, eh?!! Isn't it great to have a conversation?!!

Liebner- yea, I can see that she has an "agenda"... I can see how people with the more "composed" performances may be accused of willfulness, but, yea, that willfulness could be at the service of EITHER a more "aggressive" or "meditative" stance. Both, then, could be accused... but... then... what would be the "correct" way?

See how all the "freedom" seems to generate fascism? So now we have arguments about the "correct road to freedom".

I BELIEVE this conversation could absolutely be translated to a political one- that, "how you play Cage's 'freedoms' determines what kind of political mind you have"...

So, Liebner's a communist because she wants every.single.note.to.be.just.as.important.as.every.other.one.

Drury wants to bunch things together (regardless of compatibility?) and separate those "things" from other things by a great distance... I don't know what that makes him...

I mean, isn't this a valid interpretation of a music supposedly so "free"?

Ok, but I'm not sure how these political and ideological thoughts can be derived from my plain commentary that Sabine Liebner seems to like to let the notes echo a bit longer. Did I come off as somehow ideological from that?

More responses to other things later.

snyprrr · August 24, 2016, 12:41:48 PM

Quote from: nathanb on August 24, 2016, 12:17:24 PM
Ok, but I'm not sure how these political and ideological thoughts can be derived from my plain commentary that Sabine Liebner seems to like to let the notes echo a bit longer. Did I come off as somehow ideological from that?

More responses to other things later.

Not you, her... but, this is all just me... "thinkin"...

HOWEVER!!!!

Listening to the first Track on Scheleiermacher's "1-85"- THE ONE FOR 5 pIANOS. wow! gREAT STUFF!! M(whoops, sorry) Yea, you have to turn up the volume just a little with this MDG, but, so far, very very nice aural presentation. I just hope the solo pieces are as audible. The multi-piano pieces sound almost like Late Feldman... either way, very cool so far.

nathanb · August 24, 2016, 02:14:45 PM

Quote from: snyprrr on August 22, 2016, 08:27:28 AM
As I understand it, every part of 'Atlas Eclipticalis' can be played separately, as a "solo", hence, you have a 'Solo' for trombone, 'Solo' for piano, and so on. I'm not really sure how it works, but, Eberhard Blum has recorded "all" the flute parts under the heading 'Atlas Eclipticalis', whilst Levine on DG, I suppose, plays "all" the "parts" of the piece as an Orchestral Work. Apparently, too, the pieces can last from @15mins. to 90mins. - if played "with" 'Winter Music'.

I was just checking out the 'Atlas Eclipticalus with Winter Music' on YT, the Mode recording which lasts @80mins. It appears here that "e.v.e.r.y.s.i.n.g.l.e.n.o.t.e." of the piece (WITH Winter Music) is played one-note-at-a-time- so that it appears you have 90mins. of single, widely space tones surrounded by yawning abysses of silence.

i MUCH PREFER Winter Music for 20 Pianos, please. Perfect for playing during a snow!

I was under the impression that the works entitled "Solo" were derived from the "Concert For Piano And Orchestra" whereas any or all components of "Atlas Eclipticalis" may be entitled "Atlas Eclipticalis". But yes, it is a component of a larger work.

snyprrr · August 25, 2016, 07:09:28 AM

Quote from: nathanb on August 24, 2016, 02:14:45 PM
I was under the impression that the works entitled "Solo" were derived from the "Concert For Piano And Orchestra" whereas any or all components of "Atlas Eclipticalis" may be entitled "Atlas Eclipticalis". But yes, it is a component of a larger work.

you're right

REALLY enjoying Schleiemacher's "1-85"!!! nice rendering of all the sounds by the engineers, too...

snyprrr · August 26, 2016, 04:18:40 PM

Etudes Australes

Well, I'm finding these about as boring as I found 'Music for Piano 1-85' endlessly haunting. I had forgotten that, just because the piece calls for "piano", instead of "prepared piano", that there wouldn't be extraneous sounds. But, 'Etudes Australes' (so far) seems to be Cage's first Big Work for... "traditional"?... piano. There's no muting or plucking (yet, at least)... it's all "plain old piano"... but it's as typically Avant-Garde as anything from any other Master. Perhaps I am most reminded of KHS's 'Klavierstucke', at least, that's where I plan to put the jewel case of the Cage when I'm done.

But, this music sounds as "random" as can be... which makes it the most anonymous 12-tone piano music I've ever heard. I guess it also reminds me of the random sounding 'Atlas E'. Again, I would guess KHS. But, that makes this music 20 years behind the times... I am confused.

I have Schleiermacher, and I haven't done any direct compare yet, but, as far as I know, he sounds fine, and the MDG engineers seem to have the best recorded sound going (and then soume- it IS a pleasure to hear plonking piano tones in a decent acoustic in this music, and not always so up-front and in your face recording, like many old avant recitals).

And I was also expecting some "blizzards" of notes- since this is supposed to be star charts, right?- but it seems like a very leisurely paced Webern- lol, almost like a waltzing avant post-nuke Marienbad? Yea, and I'm getting that this music, technically, "doesn't go anywhere". I AM having trouble thinking of this as Composed Music, but neither does it have the aura of Improvisation.

So, I wonder how 'Music of Changes' will compare? I am now about half way through 'Australes', and, though I can groove off the piano timbre alone, I must admit that I'm not finding this compelling in the least- ha, give it a week, eh?

What do you think?

snyprrr · August 26, 2016, 05:10:13 PM

ETUDES AUSTRALES

Sultan Schleiermacher Liebner Crismani Drury

Book1

01 3:54 4:19 8:19 4:06 3:55
02 4:33 5:43 8:01 4:29 4:09
03 4:02 5:53 8:06 1:46 4:18
04 4:12 3:22 7:58 4:37 3:48
05 4:26 4:28 8:16 5:07 4:00
06 4:08 5:15 8:19 4:52 4:20
07 5:05 7:44 8:19 2:17 4:18
08 3:57 5:39 8:11 4:17 4:07

Book2

09 5:07 5:28 8:17 4:17
10 4:35 4:37 8:12 2:31
11 4:36 4:19 7:50 2:37
12 3:53 4:06 8:19 3:29
13 4:14 5:26 7:50 1:58
14 5:20 6:39 8:19 3:09
15 4:28 6:21 8:18 3:16
16 5:36 8:14 7:51 5:54

Book3

17 5:05 5:50 8:15 3:20
18 5:18 6:37 8:06 2:38
19 4:56 6:58 8:04 2:28
20 5:03 6:17 8:12 4:00
21 5:24 7:41 8:08 1:36
22 6:51 7:17 8:08 4:01
23 6:08 8:32 8:22 2:41
24 6:26 6:52 7:57 2:08

Book4

25 6:28 6:26 8:17 3:42
26 6:46 6:05 8:21 3:24
27 5:32 5:56 8:15 1:09
28 6:50 7:10 8:14 2:29
29 7:11 8:26 8:07 4:12
30 7:07 7:57 7:55 5:00
31 7:21 6:55 7:48 4:25
32 4:47 5:34 8:08 5:56

Mandryka · August 26, 2016, 11:35:29 PM

Quote from: snyprrr on August 26, 2016, 04:18:40 PM
Etudes Australes

Well, I'm finding these about as boring as I found 'Music for Piano 1-85' endlessly haunting. I had forgotten that, just because the piece calls for "piano", instead of "prepared piano", that there wouldn't be extraneous sounds. But, 'Etudes Australes' (so far) seems to be Cage's first Big Work for... "traditional"?... piano. There's no muting or plucking (yet, at least)... it's all "plain old piano"... but it's as typically Avant-Garde as anything from any other Master. Perhaps I am most reminded of KHS's 'Klavierstucke', at least, that's where I plan to put the jewel case of the Cage when I'm done.

But, this music sounds as "random" as can be... which makes it the most anonymous 12-tone piano music I've ever heard. I guess it also reminds me of the random sounding 'Atlas E'. Again, I would guess KHS. But, that makes this music 20 years behind the times... I am confused.

I have Schleiermacher, and I haven't done any direct compare yet, but, as far as I know, he sounds fine, and the MDG engineers seem to have the best recorded sound going (and then soume- it IS a pleasure to hear plonking piano tones in a decent acoustic in this music, and not always so up-front and in your face recording, like many old avant recitals).

And I was also expecting some "blizzards" of notes- since this is supposed to be star charts, right?- but it seems like a very leisurely paced Webern- lol, almost like a waltzing avant post-nuke Marienbad? Yea, and I'm getting that this music, technically, "doesn't go anywhere". I AM having trouble thinking of this as Composed Music, but neither does it have the aura of Improvisation.

So, I wonder how 'Music of Changes' will compare? I am now about half way through 'Australes', and, though I can groove off the piano timbre alone, I must admit that I'm not finding this compelling in the least- ha, give it a week, eh?

What do you think?

Any idea why he organised the etudes into books? He may never have intended the etudes as something to listen to.

Music of changes is less plain old piano, at least in Book 4 by Henck.

The big problems I have with the etudes is: does the idea justify the length? I mean, look, he had this idea about getting a star map and using I Ching, right. Well OK, write an étude, but why write 32?

Could anyone say "Etude XX is my favourite" and say why?

nathanb · August 27, 2016, 06:18:11 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on August 26, 2016, 04:18:40 PM
Etudes Australes

Well, I'm finding these about as boring as I found 'Music for Piano 1-85' endlessly haunting. I had forgotten that, just because the piece calls for "piano", instead of "prepared piano", that there wouldn't be extraneous sounds. But, 'Etudes Australes' (so far) seems to be Cage's first Big Work for... "traditional"?... piano. There's no muting or plucking (yet, at least)... it's all "plain old piano"... but it's as typically Avant-Garde as anything from any other Master. Perhaps I am most reminded of KHS's 'Klavierstucke', at least, that's where I plan to put the jewel case of the Cage when I'm done.

But, this music sounds as "random" as can be... which makes it the most anonymous 12-tone piano music I've ever heard. I guess it also reminds me of the random sounding 'Atlas E'. Again, I would guess KHS. But, that makes this music 20 years behind the times... I am confused.

I have Schleiermacher, and I haven't done any direct compare yet, but, as far as I know, he sounds fine, and the MDG engineers seem to have the best recorded sound going (and then soume- it IS a pleasure to hear plonking piano tones in a decent acoustic in this music, and not always so up-front and in your face recording, like many old avant recitals).

And I was also expecting some "blizzards" of notes- since this is supposed to be star charts, right?- but it seems like a very leisurely paced Webern- lol, almost like a waltzing avant post-nuke Marienbad? Yea, and I'm getting that this music, technically, "doesn't go anywhere". I AM having trouble thinking of this as Composed Music, but neither does it have the aura of Improvisation.

So, I wonder how 'Music of Changes' will compare? I am now about half way through 'Australes', and, though I can groove off the piano timbre alone, I must admit that I'm not finding this compelling in the least- ha, give it a week, eh?

What do you think?

You're not wrong, for the most part, about these being pure ole piano, with one exception: for each etude, the pianist is required to silently depress several keys with rubber wedges before playing, so that each piece has unique overtones.

As far as your interpretation, fair enough. You should read about the pieces though. I think you want the events to be faster, so you might try another recording, but keep in mind that performers usually select slow tempi here because it makes the pieces... possible to play.

I'm confused about your star chart comment as it sounds exactly like the other star chart pieces in execution, IMO; no melodic flourishes, just event after event, with the exception that other instruments have more control over their timbre as opposed to the piano. Of course it can't be as busy as the Atlas Eclipticalis. Have you listened to the Freeman Etudes?

snyprrr · August 27, 2016, 08:16:41 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on August 26, 2016, 11:35:29 PM
Any idea why he organised the etudes into books? He may never have intended the etudes as something to listen to.

The big problems I have with the etudes is: does the idea justify the length? I mean, look, he had this idea about getting a star map and using I Ching, right. Well OK, write an étude, but why write 32?

Could anyone say "Etude XX is my favourite" and say why?

I think it comes down to "Etude XX BY so-and-so" is my fav because they bla bla "do something no one else did/could do"...

Cage's comment is key, where he says:

(Cage wants the world to change, because the system is corrupt (don't get me started!!)..."I thought if there was a MUSICIAN who gave the public an example, if he did the IMPOSSIBLE, that he would induce someone (a political leader?) who had been impressed by THIS PERFORMANCE to change the world."

So, it CAN'T BE the "music"... it HAS to be the performance. So this brings me to that Claudio C. recording. Just look at the timings. Someone said he was the most willful, but those timings almost compel me to hear. Since this "music" is actually quite bland- I suppose you could even play it twice as slow as Liebner- it makes sense that these Etudes are JUST physical exercises of the Olympian variety. Why does anyone care about pole vaulting? Or physical things like that? Well, here we just have the "fingers" version??

So, why aren't these things played faster? if Claudio can do it?? Liebner makes EVERY Etude @8mins. eh?

And yet most of you are raving her performance. I do understand this as taking every Etude as part of a 360 degree picture-by-picture at 8 X 11 inches, or whatever mechanical equivalent. And Cage wanted you NOT to sound mechanical....

oy- my head's spinning....

Quote from: nathanb on August 27, 2016, 06:18:11 AM
You're not wrong, for the most part, about these being pure ole piano, with one exception: for each etude, the pianist is required to silently depress several keys with rubber wedges before playing, so that each piece has unique overtones.

As far as your interpretation, fair enough. You should read about the pieces though. I think you want the events to be faster, so you might try another recording, but keep in mind that performers usually select slow tempi here because it makes the pieces... possible to play.

I'm confused about your star chart comment as it sounds exactly like the other star chart pieces in execution, IMO; no melodic flourishes, just event after event, with the exception that other instruments have more control over their timbre as opposed to the piano. Of course it can't be as busy as the Atlas Eclipticalis. Have you listened to the Freeman Etudes?

But how can Claudio play it at 2mins., Grete at 4mins., Schlrmhr 6mins., and then Liebner at 8mins. ??

THIS PIECE WAS WRITTEN FOR TWO INDEPENDENT HANDS, meaning, the hands can't help each other out. So, is that why this music doesn't "sound" as fast as one would hope, because it's impossible? But how then does Claudio do it? Is he cheating?

You guys did see the Timings Chart?

It "sounds" as if you can play these pieces faster than Schleiermacher, but, because of the restrictions, maybe you can't? From the samples, Liebner just sounds really slow...

aaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh

I had CD2 of Schleierm. on all night as I slept. What I heard when I randomly awoke here and there... how do I describe? Soothing Avant? Snoozetime Avant? Avant that's slow enough, and has enough dynamic shearing to be able to get one to sleep? I mean, you could actually play the piece in a monolithic ffff the whole way if you wanted, or play it all Feldman....

Can we continue on this for a few more?

nate- frankly, I would have MUCH rather gotten the 'Freeman Etudes'. Now THOSE I can actually enjoy listening to. And they "sound" really fast too. How come they "sound" fast, and the 'Australes' don't? But yea, much rather like the violin... I was surprised.

So, I'm dealing with my first Cage disappointment/confluxubation/perplexity. 'Australes' sounds like the most meaningless display of cool sounds just strung together in the most meaningless way- but it still has a certain appeal to me.

BUT, I have KHS/Kontarsky here ready for the counter-argument today. Determinism vs Indeterminism

Mandryka · August 27, 2016, 09:36:39 AM

Well we should have a look at the score. As far as I know Cage doesn't tell you how fast to play them. I suppose Liebner plays them slow to make them sound simpler. Chrismani is so different from everyone else that in truth it's hard for me to be sure he's playing the same music, it's not just tempi, it's phrasing too. I enjoy him. Liebner and Sultan are the other ones I know and for me it's more of a challenge than a pleasure, but that's probably because I'm not zen enough.

Liebner took a long time, years, preparing the recording and there's something principled and uncompromising about the approach.

Who said it's written for two independent hands, Sultan or Cage? Sultan really does bring out the duet for two hands feeling, at least I remember thinking that last time I listened about two years ago!