Barenboim

[MishaK]

Barenboim's association with Pierre Boulez deserves to be noted - only one recording of them together, though, Bartok concertos. This association gives Barenboim a well-deserved place in the history of music, as it is he who gave Boulez the idea of orchestrating Notations. And Notations is developing into Boulez's masterpiece, IMO.

I had the pleasure of hearing Boulez and Barenboim recreate their debut together with the Bartok PC1 with the CSO on tour in Berlin a few years ago, followed by Boulez conducting the Bartok concerto for orchestra. Unforgettable!

There is something strange about Barenboim. He was born in Argentina & Spanish therefore is presumably his first language. But he speaks with a Hungarian accent.

Hardly. Hungarians overstress the first syllable of every word. Barenboim doesn't do that. His accent is rather typically Israeli, which is where he grew up mostly.

Just to point out the one Barenboim performance which (so far) I admire immensely: it is the second movement of Schubert's D 960 sonata (the DG one). I think some might even find it "soporific" but I find it unsurpassed (and I have heard and own very many recordings of that sonata indeed, usually I'm too embarassed to divulge how many  ). Anyone know this recording by chance?

Yes, that is a very fine one. I think it is in Schubert that his breadth as a musician shows most. He brings out the links both to Schubert's predecessors and to Bruckner, while also showing that he completely internalized Schubert's piano, orchestral, symphonic, and especially lieder output. Everything sings naturally. The one thing I really regret he never put on disc is the Schubert 9th he conducted with the CSO during his last season as music director, both in Chicago and at Carnegie. That was possibly the best musical performance of anything I have ever heard anywhere.

Interesting discussion on DB. I admire him very much as a person, but have never really connected with his recorded performances e.g. the EMI Beethoven, which was raved about when I was still in my early 20s;

Hm, I don't really like that first Beethoven cycle. I have around 20 cycles and very many individual recordings, and Barenboim, along with Brendel, are - for me - by far the least preferred of all.

I'd have to agree with this. I blame English critical hype for the unnecessary prominence of the EMI cycle. It's nowhere near the level of depth and naturalness of the DG and later EMI video cycles. I've heard Barenboim do the Beethoven sonatas live on a number of occasions and he can be inconsistent and detached. E.g.  there was a Pathetique in NY that just didn't happen (followed, however, by an absolutely mesmerizing Debussy Preludes I), but then I heard him do an unsurpassed Waldstein in Cologne where the last movement grew so organically out of the second movement like I have never heard or imagined before or since. In that sense both the DG cycle and the live EMI video cycle have their strong parts and weak parts, but overall both are significantly more interesting than his first cycle. Barenboim might not be the most passionate or witty in Beethoven, but his voicing is so refined and nuanced that it always bears repeated listening and rediscovering. For me, as an amateur pianist, I feel I often learn much more from listening to Barenboim even if some other performers might have more compelling overall tempo choices, phrasings etc. Barenboim has an orchestral sound on the piano that has to be appreciated. Each voice gets its own distinct color. If that's not your cup of tea, fine. But I find it massively rewarding.

[Verena]

I'd have to agree with this. I blame English critical hype for the unnecessary prominence of the EMI cycle. It's nowhere near the level of depth and naturalness of the DG and later EMI video cycles. I've heard Barenboim do the Beethoven sonatas live on a number of occasions and he can be inconsistent and detached. E.g.  there was a Pathetique in NY that just didn't happen (followed, however, by an absolutely mesmerizing Debussy Preludes I), but then I heard him do an unsurpassed Waldstein in Cologne where the last movement grew so organically out of the second movement like I have never heard or imagined before or since. In that sense both the DG cycle and the live EMI video cycle have their strong parts and weak parts, but overall both are significantly more interesting than his first cycle. Barenboim might not be the most passionate or witty in Beethoven, but his voicing is so refined and nuanced that it always bears repeated listening and rediscovering. For me, as an amateur pianist, I feel I often learn much more from listening to Barenboim even if some other performers might have more compelling overall tempo choices, phrasings etc. Barenboim has an orchestral sound on the piano that has to be appreciated. Each voice gets its own distinct color. If that's not your cup of tea, fine. But I find it massively rewarding.

Interesting points in your post, thanks! Yes, I agree that his voicing is very refined and if married to slightly greater tension, it is likely to result in great music-making. Now I have to try his later cycle(s).

[George]

Just to point out the one Barenboim performance which (so far) I admire immensely: it is the second movement of Schubert's D 960 sonata (the DG one). I think some might even find it "soporific" but I find it unsurpassed (and I have heard and own very many recordings of that sonata indeed, usually I'm too embarassed to divulge how many  ). Anyone know this recording by chance?

I haven't heard it.

I have a Liszt CD where he plays the Nocturnes 1-3, the Consolations and 4 other works. It's a lovely disc. I also love his conducting in the Beethoven Symphonies. As Scarpia said, his Brahms Concertos with Barbirolli are terrifically romantic readings.

I've only heard his first DG Beethoven sonatas, which for the most part I find middle of the road.

[Verena]

I haven't heard it.

I have a Liszt CD where he plays the Nocturnes 1-3, the Consolations and 4 other works. It's a lovely disc. I also love his conducting in the Beethoven Symphonies. As Scarpia said, his Brahms Concertos with Barbirolli are terrifically romantic readings.

Wow. Now I do have to buy those Brahms Concertos  I'm still looking for a performance of those which I find completely satisfying.

[George]

Wow. Now I do have to buy those Brahms Concertos  I'm still looking for a performance of those which I find completely satisfying.

Should be dirt cheap on a EMI twofer. 

Tried Gilels, Fleisher or Szell in the Brahms PC?

[Verena]

Tried Gilels, Fleisher or Szell in the Brahms PC?

Yes. I think a mix of Gilels, Fleisher, Backhaus and Rubinstein - in great sound  - would be my ideal  On their own, I'm not completely satisfied with either of those..

[George]

Yes. I think a mix of Gilels, Fleisher, Backhaus and Rubinstein - in great sound  - would be my ideal  On their own, I'm not completely satisfied with either of those..

Sorry, I said Szell, but I meant Serkin.

[Verena]

Sorry, I said Szell, but I meant Serkin.

Yes, Serkin is also one which I really like. What I am looking for most is a spell-bindingly wonderful slow movement of the first concerto. I once heard a recording by Grinberg in bad sound which almost fit the bill, but the sound quality was too poor for my taste.

[Sergeant Rock]

Yes. I think a mix of Gilels, Fleisher, Backhaus and Rubinstein - in great sound  - would be my ideal  On their own, I'm not completely satisfied with either of those..

You're a hard man to please!

What I am looking for most is a spell-bindingly wonderful slow movement of the first concerto.

How about Curzon (with Szell)? But I suppose you've already heard that one. Who hasn't?

Two with slow movements I really love: Grimaud/Sanderling and Zimerman/Bernstein.

Sarge

[George]

Yes, Serkin is also one which I really like. What I am looking for most is a spell-bindingly wonderful slow movement of the first concerto.

The slowest one that I have is the Barenboim. He's 15:44.

[Verena]

You're a hard man to please!

... woman ... 

How about Curzon (with Szell)? But I suppose you've already heard that one. Who hasn't?

Two with slow movements I really love: Grimaud/Sanderling and Zimerman/Bernstein.

I don't really like the Curzon; don't know about the others; I have to try them, especially Zimerman - thanks!

[Verena]

The slowest one that I have is the Barenboim. He's 15:44.

This has now found its way into my shopping basket..

[George]

... woman ... 

Ah, that explains it!

[Sergeant Rock]

The slowest one that I have is the Barenboim. He's 15:44.

I have to try them, especially Zimerman - thanks!

Zimerman and Lenny take 16:28. I don't know if you'll find it spell-binding but "there are miracles of fine grading from Zimerman as well as clear-eyed good sense, and playing of rare pedigree and a chameleon-like sensitivity to context from Bernstein and the Vienna Philharmonic." But then Richard Osborne goes on to say it's also "so narcissistic, so intolerably self-regarding." Now there is a man hard to satisfy. (I'm pretty sure I got the gender right this time  )

Sarge

[Verena]

Ah, that explains it!

[Verena]

Zimerman and Lenny take 16:28. I don't know if you'll find it spell-binding but "there are miracles of fine grading from Zimerman as well as clear-eyed good sense, and playing of rare pedigree and a chameleon-like sensitivity to context from Bernstein and the Vienna Philharmonic." But then Richard Osborne goes on to say it's also "so narcissistic, so intolerably self-regarding." Now there is a man hard to satisfy. (I'm pretty sure I got the gender right this time  )

The idea that it sounds "narcissistic" is not something that will prevent me from trying it. "Narcissism" is not a category which I usually associate with musical interpretations. 

[Sergeant Rock]

The idea that it sounds "narcissistic" is not something that will prevent me from trying it. "Narcissism" is not a category which I usually associate with musical interpretations. 

Isn't it silly? Self-regarding? What does that even mean? But it's a frequent and annoying cliché in Gramophone reviews...usually written about musicians who take extra time or care over phrasing. That is exactly what I want and expect from great artists.

Sarge

[Scarpia]

Isn't it silly? Self-regarding? What does that even mean? But it's a frequent and annoying cliché in Gramophone reviews...usually written about musicians who take extra time or care over phrasing. That is exactly what I want and expect from great artists.

I don't know what narcissistic really means, maybe what he means is self-indulgent.  With Lenny sometimes that is good, sometimes not, at least in my view.

[Antoine Marchand]

I don't know what narcissistic really means...

The Disciple

by Oscar Wilde

When Narcissus died the pool of his pleasure changed from a cup of sweet waters into a cup of salt tears, and the Oreads came weeping through the woodland that they might sing to the pool and give it comfort.

And when they saw that the pool had changed from a cup of sweet waters into a cup of salt tears, they loosened the green tresses of their hair and cried to the pool and said, 'We do not wonder that you should mourn in this manner for Narcissus, so beautiful was he.'

'But was Narcissus beautiful?' said the pool.

'Who should know that better than you?' answered the Oreads. 'Us did he ever pass by, but you he sought for, and would lie on your banks and look down at you, and in the mirror of your waters he would mirror his own beauty.'

And the pool answered, 'But I loved Narcissus because, as he lay on my banks and looked down at me, in the mirror of his eyes I saw ever my own beauty mirrored.'

[Sergeant Rock]

I don't know what narcissistic really means, maybe what he means is self-indulgent.

Could be...but what does self-indulgent mean in a musical context? Why does lavishing extra care on a composer's music make the conductor or soloist self-indulgent? I understand tempo and phrasing are matters of taste. I don't expect everyone to like what I like. But music is an interpretive art. Every performance is different; in every performance choices are made. What I don't understand is a critic complaining about "narcissism" when the choice is a slower tempo or sensitive phrasing or attention to detail.

Gramophone critics reserve this criticism for musicians they don't like. They never said Klemperer was a narcissist for slow tempos but Bernstein was constantly bashed with this tired and lazy label.

Sarge