Ravel's Rotunda

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I have the Martinon, Dutoit, and Plasson, as well as what comes in mega boxes. They just looked like the best fit for Ravel. Dutoit gets the edge I think over Martinon.

I think Martinon and Dutoit are two fine Ravelians. I do not like Dutoit's too swift tempi used in Le tombeau du Couperin, though. So he gets a negative mark here. I still think Dutoit's Daphnis et Chloe is the best committed to disc. I also think favorably of the Roge PC performances. I think Ozawa is a highly underrated Ravelian. I've been revisiting his BSO performances on DG and they're quite good.

[North Star]

BTW, I LOVE the slow movement to Piano Concerto in G. Such crystalline beauty with aching piano cascades that feel like little drops of ice cold water.

No love for L'enfant et les sortileges, Ma mere l'oye, Piano Trio, the song cycle Sheherazade, or Piano Concerto for the left-hand?

+1 to both. L'enfant, Ma mere, Piano Trio, Violin Sonata, Sonata for Violin & Cello, Miroirs, Gaspard, the PCs, La Valse, Schéhérazade, Le Tombeau de Couperin, and the songs - Mallarmé songs, Chansons madécasses, Histoires naturelles, Cinq Mélodies populaires grecques, Deux melodies hébraïques, Vocalise-etude (en forme de Habanera), Chants populaires - deserve more attention!

[EigenUser]

No love for L'enfant et les sortileges, Ma mere l'oye, Piano Trio, the song cycle Sheherazade, or Piano Concerto for the left-hand?

I am ashamed to admit that I've never heard the left hand concerto  . I'm fixing that now as I write this. It sounds more "Ravel" than the G major; much darker. Really wonderfully orchestrated, but I'm not surprised in the least considering who we're dealing with, here.

What is wrong with me (other than not having heard the left hand concerto, I mean)?! How could I forget "Ma Mere L'Oye"? That was my first piece of Ravel's that I really connected to. I played it in my university's orchestra. Our conductor chose to play the "Introduction" and "Danse du Rouet" from the ballet along with the original five. The "Danse du Rouet" was so much fun to play and it was probably one of the few times I was jealous of the 2nd violin section (I was in the 1st violin section) because they got to play this section with glissandos all over the place. It always made me smile.

I've listened to the "Piano Trio" and I enjoyed it, but often I don't listen to much chamber music or solo piano music. I almost always enjoy large orchestras best; just a personal preference of mine. I also don't usually like song cycles or singing/opera much, either, hence why I didn't mention "Scheherazade" or "L'enfant et les Sortileges"

I think "La Valse" is one of the most terrifying pieces composed, even compared to Le sacre and mandarin. The latter two are definitely horrifying, but they start out in a dark place so you know what you're in for. "La Valse", on the other hand, retains a certain elegance until that buildup before the huge gong crash at around 1.5-2 minutes from the end. The sections before this are shadowy, but still relatively graceful. After the gong, the strings have wailing glissandos, the brass section has menacing chromatic scales, and there's even a section where Ravel "pulls the carpet from your feet" so to speak by removing the first beat of the 3/4 bar.

[Mirror Image]

I am ashamed to admit that I've never heard the left hand concerto  . I'm fixing that now as I write this. It sounds more "Ravel" than the G major; much darker. Really wonderfully orchestrated, but I'm not surprised in the least considering who we're dealing with, here.

What is wrong with me (other than not having heard the left hand concerto, I mean)?! How could I forget "Ma Mere L'Oye"? That was my first piece of Ravel's that I really connected to. I played it in my university's orchestra. Our conductor chose to play the "Introduction" and "Danse du Rouet" from the ballet along with the original five. The "Danse du Rouet" was so much fun to play and it was probably one of the few times I was jealous of the 2nd violin section (I was in the 1st violin section) because they got to play this section with glissandos all over the place. It always made me smile.

I've listened to the "Piano Trio" and I enjoyed it, but often I don't listen to much chamber music or solo piano music. I almost always enjoy large orchestras best; just a personal preference of mine. I also don't usually like song cycles or singing/opera much, either, hence why I didn't mention "Scheherazade" or "L'enfant et les Sortileges"

I think "La Valse" is one of the most terrifying pieces composed, even compared to Le sacre and mandarin. The latter two are definitely horrifying, but they start out in a dark place so you know what you're in for. "La Valse", on the other hand, retains a certain elegance until that buildup before the huge gong crash at around 1.5-2 minutes from the end. The sections before this are shadowy, but still relatively graceful. After the gong, the strings have wailing glissandos, the brass section has menacing chromatic scales, and there's even a section where Ravel "pulls the carpet from your feet" so to speak by removing the first beat of the 3/4 bar.

You don't care much Sheherazade, L'enfant et les sortileges, or the Piano Trio? It's okay we can still be friends.

[Madiel]

I'm reading Nichols' biography of Ravel at the moment. While it does have its irritating qualities (why do writers in English like to show off their French and then not translate?!?), one thing it's done is make me reevaluate my usual dislike of orchestrations of piano pieces - especially piano pieces as brilliant as Ravel's.

So many discs of 'orchestral' Ravel are in fact filled with works conceived for piano, so it's been a bit of an issue for me.

[North Star]

I'm reading Nichols' biography of Ravel at the moment. ...one thing it's done is make me reevaluate my usual dislike of orchestrations of piano pieces - especially piano pieces as brilliant as Ravel's.

So many discs of 'orchestral' Ravel are in fact filled with works conceived for piano, so it's been a bit of an issue for me.

I haven't had any trouble with either versions of the music he arranged for orchestra, Ravel clearly knew what he was doing, unlike the person who orchestrated Gaspard de la nuit. If it would work, surely Ravel would have done it himself. The different versions show different facets of the music and I wouldn't want to choose in the case of any of the pieces one version over another, although perhaps I would rather have just the piano versions if I was made to choose at gunpoint..

[EigenUser]

I haven't had any trouble with either versions of the music he arranged for orchestra, Ravel clearly knew what he was doing, unlike the person who orchestrated Gaspard de la nuit. If it would work, surely Ravel would have done it himself. The different versions show different facets of the music and I wouldn't want to choose in the case of any of the pieces one version over another, although perhaps I would rather have just the piano versions if I was made to choose at gunpoint..

I really like the "Barque" orchestration even though Ravel recalled it from his list of works. I think that the "waves" are created more effectively on a larger scale than the piano has.

I like Constant's orchestration of "Gaspard de la Nuit", but I have no doubt that Ravel could have done much better. Constant almost makes it sound like a film score. I don't really mind because I love the piece regardless, but it isn't nearly as good as it could have been. On the other hand, the Kocsis orchestration of the fiendishly-difficult toccata from "Le Tombeau de Couperin" is really quite amazing:
http://www.youtube.com/v/q0GevBsIJNA

I love the horn rips (at the end), the wind machine, and the "church" bells (I assume they are tubular bells). It makes you wonder why Ravel didn't do this in the first place, though Kocsis uses a much larger orchestra than Ravel did in his orchestration of the four movements. I also have his orchestration of the fugue, but I was a little bit let down by this.

[North Star]

I really like the "Barque" orchestration even though Ravel recalled it from his list of works. I think that the "waves" are created more effectively on a larger scale than the piano has.

I like Constant's orchestration of "Gaspard de la Nuit", but I have no doubt that Ravel could have done much better. Constant almost makes it sound like a film score. I don't really mind because I love the piece regardless, but it isn't nearly as good as it could have been. On the other hand, the Kocsis orchestration of the fiendishly-difficult toccata from "Le Tombeau de Couperin" is really quite amazing:

I love the horn rips (at the end), the wind machine, and the "church" bells (I assume they are tubular bells). It makes you wonder why Ravel didn't do this in the first place, though Kocsis uses a much larger orchestra than Ravel did in his orchestration of the four movements. I also have his orchestration of the fugue, but I was a little bit let down by this.

The Barque orchestration is fine indeed, albeit I do prefer the solo piano version (e.g. Roger Muraro's recording)

Thanks for posting that Kocsis orchestration, it's marvelous!

[EigenUser]

The Barque orchestration is fine indeed, albeit I do prefer the solo piano version (e.g. Roger Muraro's recording)

Thanks for posting that Kocsis orchestration, it's marvelous!

Glad you liked it! It's from this album:
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[Mirror Image]

It makes you wonder why Ravel didn't do this in the first place, though Kocsis uses a much larger orchestra than Ravel did in his orchestration of the four movements. I also have his orchestration of the fugue, but I was a little bit let down by this.

I'm not impressed with an orchestration that's so extravagant and over-the-top that it cuts into the purpose of a piece. Ravel's orchestration is exactly what he had in mind and I think he was successful with it's paired down forces. It gives the work a delicacy that matches the music's intent which was to honor his friends that died during WWI. I couldn't imagine this work being orchestrated any other way. But that's just my two cents.

[North Star]

I'm not impressed with an orchestration that's so extravagant and over-the-top that it cuts into the purpose of a piece. Ravel's orchestration is exactly what he had in mind and I think he was successful with it's paired down forces. It gives the work a delicacy that matches the music's intent which was to honor his friends that died during WWI. I couldn't imagine this work being orchestrated any other way. But that's just my two cents.

A good point; smaller forces would probably work better.

[EigenUser]

I'm not impressed with an orchestration that's so extravagant and over-the-top that it cuts into the purpose of a piece. Ravel's orchestration is exactly what he had in mind and I think he was successful with it's paired down forces. It gives the work a delicacy that matches the music's intent which was to honor his friends that died during WWI. I couldn't imagine this work being orchestrated any other way. But that's just my two cents.

This is true, though I still enjoy it greatly. I've always felt the toccata to be out of place in the piano suite, even though some of the themes (loosely) seem to come from the rigadon and prelude. Not that it is at all a lesser movement; just that it has a different "feel". Perhaps this is why he decided not to include it, though that still doesn't explain the fugue's omission.

Then again, we're talking about Ravel. Who the hell am I to complain? 

I will say this: as someone who is trying to learn the suite on piano, it is very very discouraging that the toccata is there because I have no chance of learning it in this lifetime. I'm working on the prelude and forlane for fun (even though I'm not very good at the piano) and it's annoying that I won't be able to learn the whole suite.

[Mirror Image]

This is true, though I still enjoy it greatly. I've always felt the toccata to be out of place in the piano suite, even though some of the themes (loosely) seem to come from the rigadon and prelude. Not that it is at all a lesser movement; just that it has a different "feel". Perhaps this is why he decided not to include it, though that still doesn't explain the fugue's omission.

Then again, we're talking about Ravel. Who the hell am I to complain? 

I will say this: as someone who is trying to learn the suite on piano, it is very very discouraging that the toccata is there because I have no chance of learning it in this lifetime. I'm working on the prelude and forlane for fun (even though I'm not very good at the piano) and it's annoying that I won't be able to learn the whole suite.

Ravel was a perfectionist through and through. He constantly revised and, in the process, would scrap ideas left and right, but what survived is never less than inspired. We're fortunate to have what we have available to us. Hell, we're lucky to have anything from Durufle, Falla, and Dukas for that matter!

[EigenUser]

Ravel was a perfectionist through and through. He constantly revised and, in the process, would scrap ideas left and right, but what survived is never less than inspired. We're fortunate to have what we have available to us. Hell, we're lucky to have anything from Durufle, Falla, and Dukas for that matter!

Yes, I've read a couple of biographies and I recall a quote from him saying something like "I am not a great composer. Great composers work with quantity as well as quality." (paraphrased) and generally talking about how he had drained every ounce of creativity from himself, so to speak.

One more Ravel piece that I totally forgot to mention is "Introduction and Allegro" for harp, flute, clarinet, and string quartet. It doesn't even sound like chamber music. It is so richly orchestrated that it almost sounds like a full orchestra playing at several times throughout the work. I have a background music playlist that I play while studying, reading, etc. By chance, Ligeti's "Melodien" (the only Ligeti on that playlist, haha) happened to precede the Ravel I&A and the transition is beautiful. The violin harmonics at the end of "Melodien" fade away -- then suddenly Ravel's lyrical flute/clarinet melody emerges. I can hardly listen to "Melodien" now without hearing both together!

[Mirror Image]

Yes, I've read a couple of biographies and I recall a quote from him saying something like "I am not a great composer. Great composers work with quantity as well as quality." (paraphrased) and generally talking about how he had drained every ounce of creativity from himself, so to speak.

One more Ravel piece that I totally forgot to mention is "Introduction and Allegro" for harp, flute, clarinet, and string quartet. It doesn't even sound like chamber music. It is so richly orchestrated that it almost sounds like a full orchestra playing at several times throughout the work. I have a background music playlist that I play while studying, reading, etc. By chance, Ligeti's "Melodien" (the only Ligeti on that playlist, haha) happened to precede the Ravel I&A and the transition is beautiful. The violin harmonics at the end of "Melodien" fade away -- then suddenly Ravel's lyrical flute/clarinet melody emerges. I can hardly listen to "Melodien" now without hearing both together!

Yes, I agree that Introduction & Allegro is a remarkable work. I had forgotten to mention this one myself. That palette for the work is, indeed, a full one, so it's no wonder why it sounds closer to an orchestral work than one for chamber. I used to be a lot like you in that I didn't care much for chamber music, but it seems that this genre has started to get closer and closer to my heart. I'm beginning to love orchestral and chamber music equally. That's a pretty cool idea about having Ligeti's Melodien come before Ravel's Introduction & Allegro on a playlist. I think I might try that one day.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

I just ordered 3 used cd's of Haitink conducting Ravel with the BSO.

Awesome. I hope they work out.

[Pessoa]

Everything is beautiful. Some of it is magical: enfant, the piano concerts, ma mere, daphnis...

I agree with MI on Ozawa, probably because his were the first recordings I had of Ma mere and Le tombeau.

[Geo Dude]

It's good to see the Bavouzet set getting so much love in this thread.

Can anyone recommend a recording of L'enfant... that includes a libretto?

[North Star]

It's good to see the Bavouzet set getting so much love in this thread.

Can anyone recommend a recording of L'enfant... that includes a libretto?

The Maazel recording here. I don't know whether the separate issue has the libretto, though I would think it has. Ansermet's recording is very fine too, but again I don't know if it comes with the libretto..
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[Geo Dude]

The Maazel recording here. I don't know whether the separate issue has the libretto, though I would think it has. Ansermet's recording is very fine too, but again I don't know if it comes with the libretto..
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The box set contains a damn libretto?  That has to be the first and last time such a thing will happen!


EDIT: Can anyone confirm for certain whether that two disc re-release contains a libretto?  Once bitten, twice shy...