Bruckner's Abbey

[DavidW]

Are those stereo recordings?

I'll admit that they are a bit old, but both of those recordings (the 8th and the 9th) are just amazing!

[Cato]

I'll admit that they are a bit old, but both of those recordings (the 8th and the 9th) are just amazing!

Thanks for the swift reply!  I will look into finding those performances!

[Daverz]

Are those stereo recordings?

Discogs has the recording dates, though it's a bit fuzzy here:



Have you heard the Jochum/Dresden 9th?

[Cato]

Discogs has the recording dates, though it's a bit fuzzy here:



Have you heard the Jochum/Dresden 9th?

Thanks for the information!  And yes, the Eugen Jochum/Dresden 9th is another triumph!  That entire 1970's cycle with the Staatskapelle Dresden is preferred by some over the DGG cycle. 

The usual wisdom about the difference between the the two is that the former might have more polished orchestras, but the latter has more visceral drive and power.

[Keemun]

I think the next version I listen to will be Jochum/Dresden.  I'm sure I've heard it before, as I have that cycle on CD, but it's been years.   

[DavidW]

Thanks for the information!  And yes, the Eugen Jochum/Dresden 9th is another triumph!  That entire 1970's cycle with the Staatskapelle Dresden is preferred by some over the DGG cycle. 

The usual wisdom about the difference between the the two is that the former might have more polished orchestras, but the latter has more visceral drive and power.

Glad to see some love for the Dresden cycle.  I thought I was alone here in preferring it over the DG cycle (though I own and listen to both).

[Brahmsian]

Glad to see some love for the Dresden cycle.  I thought I was alone here in preferring it over the DG cycle (though I own and listen to both).

I do love both as well, but I have a slight preference to the Dresden.

[Brahmsian]

Speaking of the Jochum/Dresden, I have the older EMI green box issue, but I see it was somewhat recently released in 2020 under Warner Classics.  Good to see!

[Cato]

Speaking of the Jochum/Dresden, I have the older EMI green box issue, but I see it was somewhat recently released in 2020 under Warner Classics.  Good to see!

So there must be a market for that set!  Good to hear!

Earlier I was offering the opinion of musicologist H.F. Redlich on Bruckner's music from Bruckner and Mahler, a book of Redlich's from the mid 1950's.

In his survey of the symphonies, Redlich lets it be known that he does not like the Symphony #6 very much at all.

The work, says Herr Redlich, "excessively underscored and emphasized" "certain idiosyncrasies," which he does not specify. He complains that one of the themes in the opening movement and everything in the Scherzo are "painfully" modeled on Herr Wagner of Bayreuth.

He admits that the strongest movement is the second, but that it "cannot compensate for the unfortunate impression made by the patchy and inconclusive finale, which resorts more than any other movement of Bruckner's to material exploited by him to the full elsewhere."

He says that Gustav Mahler conducted the work's premiere in 1899 after "cutting it to the bone."

I find the opinion astonishing: I have always been a great admirer of the work, and find the objections very odd.  The Sixth has always seemed to me a strange but marvelous child, where Bruckner is experimenting with all kinds of things, especially rhythm and form.

Here is a counter-opinion:

https://www.theguardian.com/music/tomserviceblog/2014/jun/03/symphony-guide-bruckners-6th 

A salient excerpt:

And making a connection across the symphony, one of the finale's tunes is a hyperactive transformation of the unforgettable, lamenting oboe line you hear at the start of the Adagio. But best and perhaps most cliché-beating of all is the sense at the end of the finale that all of the threads – and all of those grinding symphonic strata – have not in fact been tied together. Yes, Bruckner brings back the melody from the first movement, and there's a brief and noisy coda, but the emotional sense of this truncated apotheosis of the symphony is of questions that are left unanswered, of a symphonic drama that is left ambivalently open rather than cosmically closed.

That has troubled some Brucknerian commentators, who want to imagine that every Bruckner symphony ought to be a closed universe of musical and expressive experience. But why should that be the case? Instead of a sign of symphonic inadequacy, that emotional ambiguity is proof that the sixth achieves something completely different from the rest of Bruckner's other symphonies, and it's why I think its febrile drama resonates so profoundly after you've heard the whole piece. You'll want to return again and again to this symphony and its stupendous - yet "saucy" - drama.

[DaveF]

I have always been a great admirer of the work, and find the objections very odd.  The Sixth has always seemed to me a strange but marvelous child, where Bruckner is experimenting with all kinds of things, especially rhythm and form.

"Certain idiosyncrasies" in a Bruckner symphony?? Surely not!

And yes, quite agree with your particular admiration of no.6, and thanks for the Guardian link - it had never occurred to me that the oboe lament from the slow movement turns into the descending melody of the finale's introduction.  The latter is surely one of the funniest passages in a Bruckner symphony - up there, for me, with the "Beethoven 9" intro to no.5's finale, with its nose-thumbing clarinet interruptions.  It's one of those bits that you wish could be wiped from your memory, so as to hear it again with innocent ears - the first reaction is "Bruckner finales don't start like this", then it gets repeated with loud brass cadences to make you jump, and then we're off - those loud cadences turn into the first theme.  (The more I think of it, the more it becomes like a compressed version of no.5, where the rude interruptions turn also turn into the first theme, which just happens to be an almighty fugue.)

And isn't the first (quiet) half of the 1st movement's coda just the most beautiful thing in any Bruckner symphony?  And as for those rhythmic superpositions - it took Klemperer's recording to make sense of them to me, since so many conductors seem to get lost in a sort of polyrhythmic soup.  But when they do make sense, they are mind-expanding.

If I had to apply the description "patchy and inconclusive" to the finale of any late Bruckner symphony, it would be to that of no.7, nearly all of whose material is (admittedly very effectively) derived from the 1st theme of the 1st movement.  And here, if anywhere, the coda feels like a door being rather impatiently slammed.

[Cato]

"Certain idiosyncrasies" in a Bruckner symphony?? Surely not!

And yes, quite agree with your particular admiration of no.6, and thanks for the Guardian link - it had never occurred to me that the oboe lament from the slow movement turns into the descending melody of the finale's introduction.  The latter is surely one of the funniest passages in a Bruckner symphony - up there, for me, with the "Beethoven 9" intro to no.5's finale, with its nose-thumbing clarinet interruptions.  It's one of those bits that you wish could be wiped from your memory, so as to hear it again with innocent ears - the first reaction is "Bruckner finales don't start like this", then it gets repeated with loud brass cadences to make you jump, and then we're off - those loud cadences turn into the first theme.  (The more I think of it, the more it becomes like a compressed version of no.5, where the rude interruptions turn also turn into the first theme, which just happens to be an almighty fugue.)

And isn't the first (quiet) half of the 1st movement's coda just the most beautiful thing in any Bruckner symphony?  And as for those rhythmic superpositions - it took Klemperer's recording to make sense of them to me, since so many conductors seem to get lost in a sort of polyrhythmic soup.  But when they do make sense, they are mind-expanding.

If I had to apply the description "patchy and inconclusive" to the finale of any late Bruckner symphony, it would be to that of no.7, nearly all of whose material is (admittedly very effectively) derived from the 1st theme of the 1st movement.  And here, if anywhere, the coda feels like a door being rather impatiently slammed.

Excellent points!  Thank you for the comments!

In one of my (Still unpublished) novels, an adolescent organist for a Catholic parish decides to adapt the last section of the slow movement from Bruckner's Sixth Symphony for the organ and use it at a Requiem Mass for a child killed in an accident.

...a melody from Tom's musical memory began playing, as he read the obituary, which mentioned Augie's pride in being an altar boy at St. Mary's and his joy in playing baseball.  The melody was a somber funeral march, complete with muffled drumbeats.  The important thing, however, was that the second part of the march rose somewhat, and seemed to aspire toward hope, or at least to counterbalance the tragedy of the opening notes.  It was from the Sixth Symphony of Anton Bruckner, from the Adagio, the second movement. 

But Tom also remembered that Bruckner brings this theme back toward the end of the movement, in a shortened form, and the little tragic funeral march becomes involved in a short brass chorale that softens the lament, which then leads to a dialogue in the strings, an up-and-down debate, with the upwardness of the music winning gently at the end, the two flutes and a single clarinet slowly, benignly, smilingly voicing their opinion that all is well, that the turmoil and sadness heard earlier have been dissolved into nothingness.

[vers la flamme]

For Ray, contents of the newest incarnation of Jochum/Dresden box

[Brahmsian]

For Ray, contents of the newest incarnation of Jochum/Dresden box

Drool!   

[relm1]

And yes, the Eugen Jochum/Dresden 9th is another triumph!  That entire 1970's cycle with the Staatskapelle Dresden is preferred by some over the DGG cycle.

Agreed, that Jochum/Dresden/9 is very, very good.  Probably my favorite of the two dozen recordings of this work I've heard.  Something very raw about its emotions...on the brink of imploding on itself through the depth of feeling while maintaining clarity and precision.

[vers la flamme]

You all are making me want to listen to that 9th again. I do recall it being one of the better ones I've heard for its extreme intensity (something I'm a sucker for in Bruckner performances) and rhythmic drive.

For what it's worth, this is my favorite Bruckner 9th:



Kind of an unpopular choice I realize, but it's the recording I learned the symphony with and I just love it.

[vers la flamme]

OK, Brucknerians of GMG, hopefully someone among you knows this:

Is there a difference in mastering between these two incarnations of the Barenboim/BPO Bruckner cycle?

This is the one I have:



And this is the new one:



If there is a remaster and you've heard both, can you tell the difference? The newest incarnation is available for very cheap and I'm wondering whether it's worth the upgrade. As I said in my previous post I realize this is an unpopular cycle, but someone out there has to love it as much as I do and is able to answer this for me 

[JBS]

Usually Warner mentions remastering, but doesn't with this one. But the copyright dates include 2021, which might mean remastering.

But pay attention to the problem narrated in the Amazon US review signed as "Just Bill".

[vers la flamme]

Usually Warner mentions remastering, but doesn't with this one. But the copyright dates include 2021, which might mean remastering.

But pay attention to the problem narrated in the Amazon US review signed as "Just Bill".

It appears that his problem is in reference to a previous issue of the same cycle, possibly the (blue) one I already have (which, for what it's worth, does not contain the glitch he is referring to). His comments date from 2017, while the (red) box I'm considering "upgrading" to was not released until 2021. (Sometimes, I've noticed, Amazon compiles reviews from earlier editions onto the latest edition of a particular release.)

In any case, thank you for the warning!

[Roasted Swan]

It appears that his problem is in reference to a previous issue of the same cycle, possibly the (blue) one I already have (which, for what it's worth, does not contain the glitch he is referring to). His comments date from 2017, while the (red) box I'm considering "upgrading" to was not released until 2021. (Sometimes, I've noticed, Amazon compiles reviews from earlier editions onto the latest edition of a particular release.)

In any case, thank you for the warning!

FWIW - I much prefer Barenboim's 1st cycle in Chicago on DG.  Its probably even LESS well-regarded than the Berlin cycle and in fact No.9 is probably not the finest part of that cycle.  But I love a lot of the other performances there - No.4 is a thrill ride (oh those Chicago horns.......)

[relm1]

FWIW - I much prefer Barenboim's 1st cycle in Chicago on DG.  Its probably even LESS well-regarded than the Berlin cycle and in fact No.9 is probably not the finest part of that cycle.  But I love a lot of the other performances there - No.4 is a thrill ride (oh those Chicago horns.......)

Completely agree 200%.  My favorite No. 4 ever is Barenboim/CSO.  Later Barenboim not as much.  Hard to describe it aside from the amazing sheer kinetic energy this recording exudes.