Cato's Grammar Grumble

[JBS]

Speaking of gremlins...have any struck this thread? I'm fairly certain members have posted here since August 5 of last year.

[JBS]

Life has prevented me from placing even some of the Grammar Gremlins from the past months.


Here is an interesting one from a frozen-yogurt emporium's bulletin board: a poster from a local university.


"REGISTER FOR THIS SUMMER'S

WOMEN'S SOCCER ID CAMP"     

AND PREPARE TO COMPETE ON THE COLLEGE LEVEL!"

So, I am sure you are wondering what a "women's soccer id* camp" could be!

My first guess: a camp where you need to find your inner soccer-monster to become a winner. 

Mrs. Cato thought the "ID" was perhaps for "identify," which still is something of a stretch.  The camp, she thought, would "identify" you as a future college soccer player...or not!

I liked my explanation better! 


*
It is perhaps not well known that Sigmund Freud never used the Latin words id, ego, and superego in his theory of the mind, but used German, i.e Das Es, Das Ich, and Das Ueber-Ich.

His English translator decided to use Latin for the concepts, which meant losing something rather subtle.

In German, "the child" is das Kind, and therefore the gender, because the word for "the" is "das," is neither male nor female, but neuter.  Since the gender of the word is neuter, the child's pronoun is "Es."

In German, this links the concept of the child's inchoate personality directly to Freud's idea of Das Es, since all Germans as children were referred to as "Es."  z.B. "Das Kind ist so lieb.  Es ist auch niedlich!"  (The child is so dear.  It is also cute!")

(I have read debates where Germans question whether to use natural gender, when referring to the child, i.e. if the child is a boy, you would have "Das Kind...Er..."  (He) or "Das Kind...Sie..." (She).)

Purists wanted Das Kind - Es.

Muss es sein? Es muss sein
Takes on a whole meaning.

As for Soccer ID--perhaps an abbreviation for Intramural Division or something similar is meant?

[Wendell_E]

Life has prevented me from placing even some of the Grammar Gremlins from the past months.


Here is an interesting one from a frozen-yogurt emporium's bulletin board: a poster from a local university.


"REGISTER FOR THIS SUMMER'S

WOMEN'S SOCCER ID CAMP"     

AND PREPARE TO COMPETE ON THE COLLEGE LEVEL!"

So, I am sure you are wondering what a "women's soccer id* camp" could be!

My first guess: a camp where you need to find your inner soccer-monster to become a winner. 

Mrs. Cato thought the "ID" was perhaps for "identify," which still is something of a stretch.  The camp, she thought, would "identify" you as a future college soccer player...or not!

I liked my explanation better! 

A little googling revealed that soccer ID camps are actually common. So common, in fact, that most sites didn't bother to explain what ID stands for. I finally found this:

ID stands for Identification in soccer and is used in the context of a soccer ID camp. Soccer ID camps are used by colleges to identify the best young soccer players and recruit them to their college soccer teams.

So Mrs. Cato pretty much had it right, but I also prefer yours.

https://yoursoccerhome.com/soccer-abbreviations-what-do-they-all-mean/

[Pohjolas Daughter]

Life has prevented me from placing even some of the Grammar Gremlins from the past months.


Here is an interesting one from a frozen-yogurt emporium's bulletin board: a poster from a local university.


"REGISTER FOR THIS SUMMER'S

WOMEN'S SOCCER ID CAMP"     

AND PREPARE TO COMPETE ON THE COLLEGE LEVEL!"

So, I am sure you are wondering what a "women's soccer id* camp" could be!

My first guess: a camp where you need to find your inner soccer-monster to become a winner. 

Mrs. Cato thought the "ID" was perhaps for "identify," which still is something of a stretch.  The camp, she thought, would "identify" you as a future college soccer player...or not!

I liked my explanation better! 


*
It is perhaps not well known that Sigmund Freud never used the Latin words id, ego, and superego in his theory of the mind, but used German, i.e Das Es, Das Ich, and Das Ueber-Ich.

His English translator decided to use Latin for the concepts, which meant losing something rather subtle.

In German, "the child" is das Kind, and therefore the gender, because the word for "the" is "das," is neither male nor female, but neuter.  Since the gender of the word is neuter, the child's pronoun is "Es."

In German, this links the concept of the child's inchoate personality directly to Freud's idea of Das Es, since all Germans as children were referred to as "Es."  z.B. "Das Kind ist so lieb.  Es ist auch niedlich!"  (The child is so dear.  It is also cute!")

(I have read debates where Germans question whether to use natural gender, when referring to the child, i.e. if the child is a boy, you would have "Das Kind...Er..."  (He) or "Das Kind...Sie..." (She).)

Purists wanted Das Kind - Es.

Hi Cato,

I found this (which should help solve the ID mystery):  https://www.ncsasports.org/mens-soccer/camps#what-are-id-camps

And your partner was correct! 

PD

[Florestan]

It is perhaps not well known that Sigmund Freud never used the Latin words id, ego, and superego in his theory of the mind, but used German, i.e Das Es, Das Ich, and Das Ueber-Ich.

His English translator decided to use Latin for the concepts, which meant losing something rather subtle.

In German, "the child" is das Kind, and therefore the gender, because the word for "the" is "das," is neither male nor female, but neuter.  Since the gender of the word is neuter, the child's pronoun is "Es."

In German, this links the concept of the child's inchoate personality directly to Freud's idea of Das Es, since all Germans as children were referred to as "Es."  z.B. "Das Kind ist so lieb.  Es ist auch niedlich!"  (The child is so dear.  It is also cute!")

(I have read debates where Germans question whether to use natural gender, when referring to the child, i.e. if the child is a boy, you would have "Das Kind...Er..."  (He) or "Das Kind...Sie..." (She).)

Purists wanted Das Kind - Es.

All this reminds me of an old joke that was widely circulated immediately after 1944, when the Russians occupied Romania. replacing Germans. The Red Army soldiers were particularly fond of "collecting" (read, stealing) wristwatches and it was not uncommon to see them wearing three of four on each wrist. They roamed about the streets of Bucharest shouting "Davai tchas!" (Give me the watch!) to anyone who was not precautious enough as not to wear it in plain daylight. The great Romanian actor and comedian Constantin Tănase improvised a couplet on the subject:

    Rău era cu "Der, Die, Das"
    Da-i mai rău cu "davai ceas".
    De la Nistru pân' la Don,
    Davai ceas, davai palton,
    Davai ceas, davai moșie,
    Harașo tovărășie!


Ehglish translation:
   
  It was bad with "Der, Die, Das"
    But it's worse with "davai tchas".
    From the Dniester to the Don
    Davai watch, coat and long-johns,
    You can forego your ownership,
    Horosho comradeship!

(Horosho in Russian means good)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantin_T%C4%83nase

[Cato]

Muss es sein? Es muss sein

Takes on a whole meaning.

As for Soccer ID--perhaps an abbreviation for Intramural Division or something similar is meant?

Thanks for the comment!  The lack of punctuation for abbreviations is spreading, and as a result, of course, also spreading is incoherence.

So Mrs. Cato pretty much had it right, but I also prefer yours.

Hi Cato,

I found this (which should help solve the ID mystery):  https://www.ncsasports.org/mens-soccer/camps#what-are-id-camps

And your partner was correct! 

PD

Thanks again for all the comments!

I find it disturbing that colleges are trying to recruit and "identify" girls from 15 to 17 years of age for their teams.  But such is the sports mania of our endarkened era!

When my wife was teaching at a Catholic grade school 10 years ago in a small Ohio town, parents were pulling their boys out of the school as early as the 5th Grade...

..."to get them into the baseball clique at the public school."  (Yes, that is an actual quote from a parent!)

Why?  Because a graduate of the high-school program had made it to the Detroit Tigers a year or two before!

And if the boy had any brothers or sisters in the Catholic school, they were often pulled out as well, since it was just easier to make one trip to one school.

As a result the school eventually had to close down its Grades 5-8 and try to make it as a Kindergarten-Grade 4 operation.

Now, ask me whether the public school could compete in any way academically with the Catholic school!

A local philosopher, 80 years old at the time, Don the Barber, scowling at the entire situation, opined: "This town has gone nuts on sports!" 

Sports were obviously much more important than the classroom learning!

Now, has anybody from that public high school in the last 10 years made it into major-league or even minor-league baseball?

    It is to laugh!

All this reminds me of an old joke that was widely circulated immediately after 1944, when the Russians occupied Romania. replacing Germans. The Red Army soldiers were particularly fond of "collecting" (read, stealing) wristwatches and it was not uncommon to see them wearing three of four on each wrist. They roamed about the streets of Bucharest shouting "Davai tchas!" (Give me the watch!) to anyone who was not precautious enough as not to wear it in plain daylight. The great Romanian actor and comedian Constantin Tănase improvised a couplet on the subject:

    Rău era cu "Der, Die, Das"
    Da-i mai rău cu "davai ceas".
    De la Nistru pân' la Don,
    Davai ceas, davai palton,
    Davai ceas, davai moșie,
    Harașo tovărășie!


Ehglish translation:
   
  It was bad with "Der, Die, Das"
    But it's worse with "davai tchas".
    From the Dniester to the Don
    Davai watch, coat and long-johns,
    You can forego your ownership,
    Horosho comradeship!

(Horosho in Russian means good)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantin_T%C4%83nase

Thanks, Florestan, for a really interesting story! 

[DaveF]

Whatever happened to "An"?  No, not a lady called Anne who has chosen to abbreviate further an already short name, but the humble English indefinite article in the form used before a vowel.  I noticed some time ago, both on the BBC and among politicians, that "a" (as in the other form of the indefinite article) was increasingly being pronounced "eh" (to rhyme with "day") rather than the neutral "ə" sound.  "This government will make it eh priority to improve the living standards of eh large number of people", or whatever.  So far so good(ish); pronunciations change, I accept that.  Rather more annoying (to me) is the way that the "eh" pronunciation is replacing "an" - so you frequently hear "This policy will make eh immense contribution to the well-being of eh even larger majority of people".  I also hear it from US broadcasters and politicians, but I noticed it here first, so suspect it's an affectation that we've managed to infect you Americans with.  Sorry.

[Florestan]

eh immense

Yes, this strikes me as completely un-English pronunciation. Isn't the whole point of "an" to avoid two vowels colliding?

It's the same in French. Marlborough s'en va-t-en guerre is correct and ear-pleasing. Marlborough s'en va en guerre is incorrect and ear-scratching.

Fortunately, Romanian is exempt of such occurences.

[Cato]

Whatever happened to "An"?  No, not a lady called Anne who has chosen to abbreviate further an already short name, but the humble English indefinite article in the form used before a vowel.  I noticed some time ago, both on the BBC and among politicians, that "a" (as in the other form of the indefinite article) was increasingly being pronounced "eh" (to rhyme with "day") rather than the neutral "ə" sound.  "This government will make it eh priority to improve the living standards of eh large number of people", or whatever.  So far so good(ish); pronunciations change, I accept that.  Rather more annoying (to me) is the way that the "eh" pronunciation is replacing "an" - so you frequently hear "This policy will make eh immense contribution to the well-being of eh even larger majority of people".  I also hear it from US broadcasters and politicians, but I noticed it here first, so suspect it's an affectation that we've managed to infect you Americans with.  Sorry.

YES!!!

That problem has been on my list of grumbles for some time!!!

It has become a cancer: and it is not just replacing "an" but also the regular "a." 

"That is AY (as in "day") very good car!"

NOOO! 

But the problem goes back decades, because I recall my grade-school teachers, mostly Sisters of the Precious Blood, telling us that the only time to pronounce "a" as "AY" was to refer to it as a letter of the alphabet.

Otherwise, "a" had the "uh" sound.

Needless to say, the most grievous offenders in my experience are schlemiels, who are trying to make you think they are important, intelligent, or both, when in fact they are just schlemiels!   

One hears it, of course, on television and radio much too often and, of course, from politicians.

THANK YOU for grumbling about it: I am quite properly appalled to read that England has also been infected.

[DaveF]

... my grade-school teachers, mostly Sisters of the Precious Blood, telling us that the only time to pronounce "a" as "AY" was to refer to it as a letter of the alphabet.

I am quite properly appalled to read that England has also been infected.

Excellent - top marks to Thee Sisters of Thee Precious Blood [runs for cover...]

And I'm happy to blame the English - over the border here in Wales we talk proper, like, innit?
(In Welsh, in fact, where there's no indefinite article, the definite article is 'y', pronounced "ə" or "uh".  So far no Welsh-speaking politician has started pronouncing it "eee" - but give them time...)

[Cato]

Excellent - top marks to Thee Sisters of Thee Precious Blood [runs for cover...]

      Aye, now there is another grumble! 

[Karl Henning]

The printed English is quite painful.

[DavidW]

The printed English is quite painful.

You no need maintenance?

I recently bought a stand for my ps5.  The box had printed on it "p5" instead of ps5.    

[Cato]

The printed English is quite painful.

Whom does one blame for such monstrosities?  Did the "translator" not pay attention in English class?  Was the translator's teacher incompetent?  Or both?

I suspect that, in certain countries, errors in their knowledge of English have been passed down from one generation of teachers to the next.  Thus we have seen for decades examples of such near gibberish on products - and assembly instructions!!!    - from those countries.

And I have met enough incompetent teachers in America - both in English and Foreign Languages Departments - to know that this is quite possible!

I have met teachers who were supposedly passing on their knowledge of German or Latin who would not have been able to survive a test on the Second-Year Level.  I have met teachers of German who could not really speak the language much at all.  One NEVER spoke the language in simple conversations to her students!

Then there was the English teacher, who looked at me as if I had just dropped down from Mars, when I asked her how she taught the Subjunctive Mood to her students! 

"Uh, what's that?"

I (being polite): "The Subjunctive Mood, perhaps you were taught to use the term 'Conditional Mood' or 'If-Then Conditions'?"

No, she had no idea what any of that meant!  Future-More-Vivid, Future-Less-Vivid, Might vs. May, no idea!

Once, at a conference, my concern about such teachers was brushed away as irrelevant by a professor of English: "Nobody needs to know that stuff, and the kids can't understand it anyway." 

I: "Well, I understood it at the same age, and I make sure that my students in German or Latin or Ancient Greek understand it."

He: "You're fooling yourself if you think they understand it.  They're just pretending to get it."

I: "Not according to their examinations and homework."

He: (spurning expression, turns to speak to someone else)

Sic transit gloria academiae!   

[Florestan]

Speaking of Latin, recently a physician, around 60-something I reckon, wrote me a receipt for my son. You will buy the drug at a specific pharmacy, he told me, I wrote here S. V. meaning that it is my wish that you do so. Sic volo, I replied and made him startle în great surprise. He was really astonished that I knew Latin.

[Cato]

Speaking of Latin, recently a physician, around 60-something I reckon, wrote me a receipt for my son. You will buy the drug at a specific pharmacy, he told me, I wrote here S. V. meaning that it is my wish that you do so. Sic volo, I replied and made him startle în great surprise. He was really astonished that I knew Latin.

Optime! 

[Mandryka]

You no need maintenance?

I think you no need maintenance is perfectly correct in Jamaican. Here

https://opengrammar.github.io/jam/#_pronouns

[Cato]

Today's word is "P E D O M E T E R"! 

So, I went to a large sporting goods store, part of a national chain, because I wanted to buy a pedometer for my wife.

I had searched the place a year ago for a pedometer, but was not satisfied with what they had.  So, when I entered the place, which is about the size of a few baseball stadiums, I headed for the area where I had seen the pedometers last year.

Of course, they were nowhere in sight!  Things had been rearranged!  So, using basic logic, I headed for "Running Gear" which offered all kinds of clothes for running and jogging or ambling.  Were any pedometers there?

No, of course not!  So, again using basic logic, I then headed for the Shoe Department to find a pedometer. 

Were any pedometers there?  No!  Why would you classify a pedometer with foot products?  That's just crazy!!! 

So, after walking around aimlessly and finding no pedometers, I happened upon a 20-something employee, a young lady, who was also walking around aimlessly.

I: "Do you know where your store hides its pedometers?"

She: (Very confused look) "Uhhh..."

I: "A pedometer measures one's paces."

She: (Unsure) "You mean one of those thingys that count steps?"

I: "Yes, they are called p e d o m e t e r s..." and inside my head I am yelling "and NOT 'one of those thingys that count steps'!!!" 


To her credit, she took me directly to the area where the pedometers were.  Only one kind was offered, but it seemed to be of better quality than the ones offered last year.

Now, you are probably wondering: "Which department had the pedometers?"

I am not making this up! 

She had guided me to...The Bicycle Department!!!

Now, given that such stores are designed and organized by their High Commands somewhere in a skyscraper far, far away, and not by local managers or local personnel, it would seem that, because bicycles have...p e d als...yes, somebody in that faraway skyscraper thought that p e d ometers must go with bicycles!           

[Pohjolas Daughter]

Today's word is "P E D O M E T E R"! 

So, I went to a large sporting goods store, part of a national chain, because I wanted to buy a pedometer for my wife.

I had searched the place a year ago for a pedometer, but was not satisfied with what they had.  So, when I entered the place, which is about the size of a few baseball stadiums, I headed for the area where I had seen the pedometers last year.

Of course, they were nowhere in sight!  Things had been rearranged!  So, using basic logic, I headed for "Running Gear" which offered all kinds of clothes for running and jogging or ambling.  Were any pedometers there?

No, of course not!  So, again using basic logic, I then headed for the Shoe Department to find a pedometer. 

Were any pedometers there?  No!  Why would you classify a pedometer with foot products?  That's just crazy!!! 

So, after walking around aimlessly and finding no pedometers, I happened upon a 20-something employee, a young lady, who was also walking around aimlessly.

I: "Do you know where your store hides its pedometers?"

She: (Very confused look) "Uhhh..."

I: "A pedometer measures one's paces."

She: (Unsure) "You mean one of those thingys that count steps?"

I: "Yes, they are called p e d o m e t e r s..." and inside my head I am yelling "and NOT 'one of those thingys that count steps'!!!" 


To her credit, she took me directly to the area where the pedometers were.  Only one kind was offered, but it seemed to be of better quality than the ones offered last year.

Now, you are probably wondering: "Which department had the pedometers?"

I am not making this up! 

She had guided me to...The Bicycle Department!!!

Now, given that such stores are designed and organized by their High Commands somewhere in a skyscraper far, far away, and not by local managers or local personnel, it would seem that, because bicycles have...p e d als...yes, somebody in that faraway skyscraper thought that p e d ometers must go with bicycles!           

Oh, nooooo!  I know that there are devices which track ones cycling speed and mileage (a combo speedometer and odometer).  It would make sense to have that in the bicycle department; however having a pedometer in that department makes absolutely no sense.

PD

[Karl Henning]

Oh, nooooo!  I know that there are devices which track ones cycling speed and mileage (a combo speedometer and odometer).  It would make sense to have that in the bicycle department; however having a pedometer in that department makes absolutely no sense.

I guess, on a positive note, they didn't have them in Patio Accessories ....