For me it's Mahler's 9th - for some reason I am still not completely happy with all my recordings. Trying to find one that is sonically stunning, that captures the quietness of the opening pages and the subsequent eruptive power, plus the stillness of the closing pages.
Do you have any other pieces that you feel the same way?
The 9th of LvB. Someone always louses something up.
Quote from: dtwilbanks on May 21, 2007, 08:41:23 AM
The 9th of LvB. Someone always louses something up.
Oh yeah, that one for me also. If it's not the soloist(s) it is the choir not up to the task, or a bad choice of tempo in the final movement.
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on May 21, 2007, 08:44:54 AM
Oh yeah, that one for me also. If it's not the soloist(s) it is the choir not up to the task, or a bad choice of tempo in the final movement.
You got it. Or the third movement doesn't move along as it should.
The big one for me has always been Beethoven's piano concerto's. Never seem happy with them, have shipped in/out quite a lot over the years.
For 5, currently have Van Cliburn and Fischer (pretty chuffed with these TBH)
For 4, Bronfman
For 3 Gilels (live Orfeo) and Bronfman
And for 1, have Richter
Chopin's 4th Ballade, I have about 20 recordings none of which I am completely happy with
. The one that gets closest is Barere, but ironically some bars are missing from that recording :-\
I must be a happy guy. Any work I have many recordings of includes at a least one or two versions that fully satisfy me. For Bach's WTC I have over 20 recordings that are in this category; for the Goldbergs, even more.
I like Uchida and Fleisher in the LvB concertos.
Quote from: dtwilbanks on May 21, 2007, 09:03:51 AM
I like Uchida and Fleisher in the LvB concertos.
THis one?
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51frEp7HlVL._AA240_.jpg)
I am thinking about it.
Quote from: dtwilbanks on May 21, 2007, 09:03:51 AM
I like Uchida and Fleisher in the LvB concertos.
Never heard them. Have had Gilels/Szell, Pollini/Abbado, Brendel/Rattle but never 'clicked' for me...
The best accounts I ever had of 1+2 were Arrau/Davis, but that was on a cassette that's now long gone and seem to have missed out on the CD :(
Quote from: Don on May 21, 2007, 08:57:54 AM
I must be a happy guy. Any work I have many recordings of includes at a least one or two versions that fully satisfy me.
Here's another happy guy.
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on May 21, 2007, 08:38:19 AM
For me it's Mahler's 9th - for some reason I am still not completely happy with all my recordings. Trying to find one that is sonically stunning, that captures the quietness of the opening pages and the subsequent eruptive power, plus the stillness of the closing pages.
Do you have any other pieces that you feel the same way?
The most recordings I have of any work is Mahler's 9th (25), and I am in the same position. Many of the recordings are very good, but none offer the whole work as a convincing whole. It is strange since I can pick at least one recording of all the other symphonies that seems to work.
Quote from: from the new world on May 21, 2007, 10:21:58 AM
The most recordings I have of any work is Mahler's 9th (25), and I am in the same position. Many of the recordings are very good, but none offer the whole work as a convincing whole. It is strange since I can pick at least one recording of all the other symphonies that seems to work.
Other Mahler recordings I have (like the 2nd and 3rd symphonies) I am happy with almost every version I have. There is just something about the ninth...
After many years of searching, I found a Mahler 9 that satisfies me on all counts: Ancerl. (I still am keeping Walter, Klemperer, Karajan and Barbirolli, though, since they offer additional insights. And there's that cheap copy of the Boulez version that keeps leering at me from a second-hand store nearby.)
I don't think I've heard a Bruckner 7 that totally satisifes me. Most readings merely make me feel the last two movements are less significant than the first two. The best performance I've heard was a Boulez/VPO aircheck with an incredibly intense slow movement was followed by hard-driven readings of the last two movements--but even then the first movement was underpowered.
Other works where I am not totally satisfied with any of my recordings would include the 4th Beethoven concerto, Schubert's D960 (Richter is too Richter-y even for me here) and Prokofiev's 5th symphony.
Maybe the problem is having too many versions, and one begins to look for trees instead of the forest, fragments rather than the whole picture in its totality as the artist has envisions. I remember someone saying his ideal recording of a certain sonata would be Richter in the first movement, Gilels in the second movement, Argerich in the third movement and Arrau in the last movement. Now, each may have impressed you the most in each of the movements mentioned. But put them together what you have is one huge, albeit beautiful, mess.
I am happy with at least one recording of each piece I have for the most part. It is not surprising that some of my favorite CDs are music that are not often played or recorded, depriving me of comparisons. Most of the time they are wonderfully satisfying! ;D
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on May 21, 2007, 09:05:48 AM
THis one?
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51frEp7HlVL._AA240_.jpg)
I am thinking about it.
Yep.
Quote from: springrite on May 21, 2007, 10:49:07 AM
Maybe the problem is having too many versions, and one begins to look for trees instead of the forest, fragments rather than the whole picture in its totality as the artist has envisions. I remember someone saying his ideal recording of a certain sonata would be Richter in the first movement, Gilels in the second movement, Argerich in the third movement and Arrau in the last movement. Now, each may have impressed you the most in each of the movements mentioned. But put them together what you have is one huge, albeit beautiful, mess.
I guess you are right. I remember in Bruno Walter's rehearsal extract (part of his sym#9 recording, disc 2) he asked the principle bassoon to do a better diminuendo in some weird passage in the middle of the 2nd movement. I guess the part is almost on the top of the bassoon range so he says "I know it's difficult but please do try". So on EVERY recording I look for THAT diminuendo and guess what, NOBODY even dares to try it! Not the Berlin Philharmonic, not the Concertgebouw, nobody. So in the back of my head these recordings are imperfect in the sense that they don't folllow Mahler's explicit directions. Now had I NOT listened to Walter it probably wouldn't matter.
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on May 21, 2007, 11:05:56 AM
. . . in the sense that they don't folllow Mahler's explicit directions.
Maybe the fault is in
Mahler's scoring? 8)
One for me stands out above all others: W.A. Mozart's Serenade #4 in D, K.189b. I think this is my favourite orchestral piece, period. I have a recording that I find second-best, with the Academy of St-Martin in the Fields, conducted by Neville Marriner. Once, in the mid-1990s, I heard a recording of it on the radio that was the best I'd ever heard. I wrote down the relevant information and commenced to hunting; it was out of print and nowhere to be found. Every year for a while, I'd go searching again. And now, this year, I wanted to again, and stunned my stupid self by somehow forgetting what orchestra or conductor it was. Yikes. I guess I'll never get it now. Nothing else ever measured up to it, especially for the 4th movement, it was perfect.
Quote from: JoshLilly on May 21, 2007, 11:26:35 AM
One for me stands out above all others: W.A. Mozart's Serenade #4 in D, K.189b. I think this is my favourite orchestral piece, period. I have a recording that I find second-best, with the Academy of St-Martin in the Fields, conducted by Neville Marriner. Once, in the mid-1990s, I heard a recording of it on the radio that was the best I'd ever heard. I wrote down the relevant information and commenced to hunting; it was out of print and nowhere to be found. Every year for a while, I'd go searching again. And now, this year, I wanted to again, and stunned my stupid self by somehow forgetting what orchestra or conductor it was. Yikes. I guess I'll never get it now. Nothing else ever measured up to it, especially for the 4th movement, it was perfect.
How about calling the station and ask?
Quote from: karlhenning on May 21, 2007, 11:21:31 AM
Maybe the fault is in Mahler's scoring? 8)
Don't think so...Mahler, much like Beethoven, was not interested in technical shortcomings of his performers ;)
Quote from: karlhenning on May 21, 2007, 11:21:31 AM
Maybe the fault is in Mahler's scoring? 8)
"Later I came to feel that the ordinary man who fails to realize what lies in the music beyond the printed indication is just...an ordinary man." -- Harold Bauer 0:)
Mahler 5th is the difficult one to bring off for me; especially I think many conductors loose momentum in the final movement. I think Chailly is the best one in this movement, but I prefer many other conductors in the other movements :-\.
Anyway, I enjoy listening to a lot of different recordings! :)
Mahler's 7th.
I own several recordings, Thomas/Abbado/Bernstein/Barrenboim/Boulez, and I still feel as though the superlative is stilll out there.
Quote from: Steve on May 21, 2007, 11:54:54 AM
Mahler's 7th.
I own several recordings, Thomas/Abbado/Bernstein/Barrenboim/Boulez, and I still feel as though the superlative is stilll out there.
Look no further than Bertini, althought Barenboim is pretty damn good already !
Quote from: Steve on May 21, 2007, 11:54:54 AM
Mahler's 7th.
I own several recordings, Thomas/Abbado/Bernstein/Barrenboim/Boulez, and I still feel as though the superlative is stilll out there.
I keep telling youse guys, Klemperer, man, Klemperer.
Sarge
Don't make Sarge come out there and bust heads! ;D
Quote from: rubio on May 21, 2007, 11:34:11 AM
Mahler 5th is the difficult one to bring off for me
Yep, that's my problem piece, and the primary reason I own so many recordings of it.
Sarge
Has to be Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony. Everything somehow is not always right.
Quote from: Harry Collier on May 21, 2007, 12:54:32 PM
Has to be Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony. Everything somehow is not always right.
"I keep telling youse guys, Klemperer, man, Klemperer".
(excuse my shameless quote, Sarge, but these are true words, usable in many contexts)
Quote from: Don on May 21, 2007, 08:57:54 AM
For Bach's WTC I have over 20 recordings that are in this category.
Would you mind to list those >20 recordings?
This thread has opened some old wounds for me. It's brought back memories of trying to find a Beethoven Symphony No. 9 that satisfied (only to return, a dozen recordings later, to Sanderling conducting the Philharmonia & Chorus in 1981 - still my stand-out recommendation to date), and the excitement, then disappointment, that accompanied every new purchase of a version of Rachmaninov's All-night Vigil ... until, that is, I hit the absolute jackpot (rough acoustic aside) with the immortal 1965 USSR State Choir/Sveshnikov recording. What a true gem. And still, with 15 or so recordings on my shelves, I can't fully commit to awarding Metha and the LPO the top prize in Saint-Saens' Third Symphony.
But the one that's really troubling me is Brahms' A German Requiem. Now, before anyone glibly chimes in with the obvious 'top' recommendation of Klemperer with the Philharmonia & Chorus, let me stop you. Yes, I grant you that this recording has earned its classic status. Yes, it has real orchestral energy, powerful soloists and a well-drilled choir. But what kills it for me isn't the peak distortion when everything gets louder (I'm sooooooo over that problem, you'll be pleased to hear), it's the - IMO, undue - prominence that the recording seems to give to the orchestra. To these ears, this sounds as though it comes at the price of sacrificing the very reason for listening to this work in the first place: the words. True, you can catch almost every vocal nuance when the soloists let forth. But once the massed vocal chords are put to work, I can't help feeling they're fighting a losing battle against their instrumental co-musicians.
So, that's Klemperer dispatched. What about Blomstedt and the San Francisco Symphony Orchestra & Chorus? First observation, exceptional soloists: Norberg-Schulz and Holzmair give performances to treasure. And the choir as a whole make for an enjoyable listen. And, unlike the Klemperer recording, the Blomstedt boasts a much better vocal/instrumental balance. You can hear the words, you can hear the orchestra, and it makes for a pleasing recording. Only, not quite. It's all a bit safe, frankly. A bit tame. Where's the passion? Where's the humanity? I listen to this CD and every time I ask myself: 'When it's really going to get going?' It doesn't, and that's its problem. And then, every few minutes or so, you hear something in the performance that catches you off-guard, and you go, 'Christ! That was good!' In short, infuriating.
Do Norrington and his London Classical Players/Schutz Choir of London put in a more compelling performance? At times, yes. Tempi are brisker, textures cleaner, and the signing is, at times, pin sharp. As for the soloists, Olaf Bar impresses, Lynne Dawson disappoints (a shame, as I really love her in French song). In fact, Dawson almost keeps me from playing this recording, so irritating does she become at times. But what keeps me going back is this: Norrington gives us a performance that communicates the work's drama, without any of the melodrama ... the latter being something I feel is more than a little evident in the Klemperer. So then, that's a no to Norrington.
A real surprise pleasure of a performance for me is Haitink with the VPO/Vienna State Opera Chorus. Tempi in the first two parts are almost painfully slow, and Haitink only just manages to bring them off. Then everything really improves. The acoustic is very fine, nicely resonant, and the singing from choir and soloists is often very good. But somehow, there's something missing, and I can't nail what it is. This makes Haitink another miss overall.
Previn/LSO & Chorus. Nothing particularly wrong with it. Nothing particularly remarkable about it. Not what I want from such a massive, emotionally powerful work. Not likely to reign supreme for me any day soon.
Rahbari/CSR Symphony Orchestra & Chorus. You'll laugh, but for an early Naxos recording, it really holds its own. Nothing to write home about, but a valiant (and in places, mildly compelling) effort.
And so to Maazel. I have misgivings about this recording. I always have had. Not the performance - it has real magic at times. Many times. More the generally 'cloudy' acoustic and slightly 'thick' recording balance. Yet, it's this recording with the New Philharmonia & Chorus that I return to until 'better' (IMO) can be found. I actually get goosebumps whenever I play this CD ... then a moment happens that seems better in another performance, and I start wishing I could splice together different bits and pieces. Always so close, yet so far away ...
What next? Hickcox on Chandos? The new EMI Rattle with the BPO? A N Other?
Anyone?
Quote from: premont on May 21, 2007, 01:11:39 PM
"I keep telling youse guys, Klemperer, man, Klemperer".
(excuse my shameless quote, Sarge, but these are true words, usable in many contexts)
Glad you stepped in, Premont. After reading Harry C's post I was about to repeat myself. Now I don't have to :)
Sarge
Quote from: premont on May 21, 2007, 01:13:54 PM
Would you mind to list those >20 recordings?
No problem:
Leonhardt
Gilbert
Wilson
van Asperen
Ross
Dantone
Suzuki
Jaccottet
Kirkpatrick
Koopman
Landowska
Parmentier
Verlet
Walcha
Levin
Gould
Gulda
Tureck (twice)
Richter
Fischer
Fellner
Aldwell
Schiff
Schepkin
Crochet
Feinberg
Horszowski
Martins
Vieru
Quote from: Mark on May 21, 2007, 01:18:19 PM
But once the massed vocal chords are put to work, I can't help feeling they're fighting a losing battle against their instrumental co-musicians....So, that's Klemperer dispatched.
What next? Hickcox on Chandos? The new EMI Rattle with the BPO? A N Other?
Anyone?
You might consider Karajan's '77 Berlin recording. It was a Grand Prix du Disque winner and comes highly recommended by several British critics, including Ivan March who says, "Both soloists sing with eloquence. What is especially appealing is the beautifully recorded contribution of the Vienna Singverein, full and well focused (just sample the grave 'Denn alles Fleisch, es ist wie Gras' – so well balanced with the orchestra)."
It's budget priced too: check it out here at Amazon.UK (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Brahms-German-Requiem-Johannes/dp/B00009KHYB/ref=pd_bowtega_1/202-7763865-1406230?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1179784268&sr=1-1)
Sarge
LvB's Missa Solemnis . . . . . . . . Klemperer is pretty damn close . . . . . . . but not quite tout à fait au point . . . . . .
Quote from: Mark on May 21, 2007, 01:18:19 PM
What next? Hickcox on Chandos? The new EMI Rattle with the BPO? A N Other?
Anyone?
You could try this. At least price is right.
http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,12629.msg377885.html#msg377885 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,12629.msg377885.html#msg377885)
Sarge, thank you - it's ordered. :) (I added the Boulez Stravinsky Rite Of Spring on DG to my order, too.)
Drasko, I've just downloaded your recommendation. Thanks.
Quote from: Mark on May 21, 2007, 02:16:42 PM
Drasko, I've just downloaded your recommendation. Thanks.
Information, not recommendation. I'm generaly clueless about that piece.
Quote from: Drasko on May 21, 2007, 02:21:30 PM
Information, not recommendation. I'm generaly clueless about that piece.
My apologies.
Very good so far, incidentally ... :)
Quote from: SimonGodders on May 21, 2007, 08:52:43 AM
The big one for me has always been Beethoven's piano concerto's. Never seem happy with them, have shipped in/out quite a lot over the years.
For 5, currently have Van Cliburn and Fischer (pretty chuffed with these TBH)
For 4, Bronfman
For 3 Gilels (live Orfeo) and Bronfman
And for 1, have Richter
Glad you mentioned that. I've looking in vain for a cycle and thought something must be wrong with me if I can't find a good LvB PC cycle.
My favorite CD is Kissen (but he has not recorded #1, #3, or #4 as of yet).
Beethovens 9th!
I have a lot of recordings but Im still not happy with the piece!
Quote from: Mozart on May 21, 2007, 02:55:45 PM
Beethovens 9th!
I have a lot of recordings but Im still not happy with the piece!
Fricsay,
Karajan '62,
Karajan '77
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 21, 2007, 01:58:14 PM
You might consider Karajan's '77 Berlin recording. It was a Grand Prix du Disque winner and comes highly recommended by several British critics, including Ivan March who says, "Both soloists sing with eloquence. What is especially appealing is the beautifully recorded contribution of the Vienna Singverein, full and well focused (just sample the grave 'Denn alles Fleisch, es ist wie Gras' – so well balanced with the orchestra)."
Sarge
Say no more Sarge, those criteria alone disqualify it from being a good recording. ;D
Chopin PS #2
Saint-Saens PC #2
Verdi Requiem
1. Tchaikovsky's Serenade for Strings
2. Rimsky-Korsakov's Scheherazade
3. Dvorak's Symphony No. 7
Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique.
If only they'd let me conduct...
cg
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 21, 2007, 01:58:14 PM
You might consider Karajan's '77 Berlin recording. It was a Grand Prix du Disque winner and comes highly recommended by several British critics, including Ivan March who says, "Both soloists sing with eloquence. What is especially appealing is the beautifully recorded contribution of the Vienna Singverein, full and well focused (just sample the grave 'Denn alles Fleisch, es ist wie Gras' – so well balanced with the orchestra)."
It's budget priced too: check it out here at Amazon.UK (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Brahms-German-Requiem-Johannes/dp/B00009KHYB/ref=pd_bowtega_1/202-7763865-1406230?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1179784268&sr=1-1)
Sarge
I like that one too. 1976 recording.
Gliere, Ilya Murometz. Rakhlin might be the best (I have a transfer from Lp; don't remember who did it off the top of my head). Stokowski is very good for what it is, a chopped to bit version of the score. Of course, some people think the music is shit anyway.
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on May 21, 2007, 08:38:19 AM
For me it's Mahler's 9th - for some reason I am still not completely happy with all my recordings. Trying to find one that is sonically stunning, that captures the quietness of the opening pages and the subsequent eruptive power, plus the stillness of the closing pages.
Do you have any other pieces that you feel the same way?
Yes, but they are dwindling. Most recent examples, Berezovsky Khachaturian piano concerto, Pisarev Mendelssohn piano concerti, Abbado Mahler 8, McAslin and MacGregor Britten violin and piano concerti, Perenyi Hindemith cello concerto, Joo Kodaly orchestral works, Kulka Penderecki violin concerto 1, Postnikova Schnittke piano concerto, R. Strauss Ashkenazy Ein Heldenleben, Leinsdorf Le Bourgeois Gentilhomme and Dance suite from keyboard pieces by Francois Couperin, Zinman Sinfonia Domestica, Parergon.
Quote from: brianrein on May 21, 2007, 06:48:00 PM
1. Tchaikovsky's Serenade for Strings
2. Rimsky-Korsakov's Scheherazade
3. Dvorak's Symphony No. 7
What do conductors get wrong in those? My favorite of the
Serenade is Barbirolli/Philharmonia.
JS BACH: Mathews Passion. I have Harnoncourt I and II, Jochum, Leonhardt, Herreweghe, not mentioning those I had in LP (Klemperer, Wöldicke, Richter) but I am not completely happy with none of them. I prefer Harnoncourt I and Jochum, but I am still waiting for the "VERSION".
Regarding Brahms 3rd Symphony I had an ideal version in LP, Böhm with the VPO in a mono version from the fifties. But I cannot find it in CD.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 21, 2007, 01:22:27 PM
Glad you stepped in, Premont. After reading Harry C's post I was about to repeat myself. Now I don't have to :)
Sarge
Actually, I agree 95%; Klemperer is pretty well ideal. I still find the Ländler a bit extreme in tempo. Maybe I'd better join everyone else and change "Beethoven 6th" to "Beethoven 9th".
I don't dare tell anyone on this board, but I have just proudly taken delivery of Klemperer's 1960 Philharmonia recording of the Bach Brandenburgs. Shush ... I'll be lynched by the harpsichord brigade.
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on May 21, 2007, 03:56:41 PM
Say no more Sarge, those criteria alone disqualify it from being a good recording. ;D
Believe it or not, PW, once in a blue moon Gramophone makes a good call ;D
Sarge
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on May 21, 2007, 08:38:19 AM
For me it's Mahler's 9th - for some reason I am still not completely happy with all my recordings. Trying to find one that is sonically stunning, that captures the quietness of the opening pages and the subsequent eruptive power, plus the stillness of the closing pages.
Do you have any other pieces that you feel the same way?
Me, too.
I have Abbado's Berlin CD on order.
The other work is Elgar's 2nd.
Lyrita have reissued Boult's coupled with the 1st on two CDs for the price of one.
I know that I will just have to buy them.
deleted
Quote from: George on May 22, 2007, 12:08:04 PM
We can delete posts now. :-\
;D
I misread HEctor's post as if he was looking for a satisfying Elgar's Cello concerto and I recommended Fournier, but what he actually wrote was Edgar's 2nd symphony :-[
Quote from: Harry Collier on May 22, 2007, 02:04:12 AM
Actually, I agree 95%; Klemperer is pretty well ideal. I still find the Ländler a bit extreme in tempo.
Harry, you have to visit Bavaria or Austria sometime. The folk dance tempos are quite slow. Klemperer knew what he was doing.
Quote from: Harry Collier on May 22, 2007, 02:04:12 AM
I don't dare tell anyone on this board, but I have just proudly taken delivery of Klemperer's 1960 Philharmonia recording of the Bach Brandenburgs. Shush ... I'll be lynched by the harpsichord brigade.
I own Klemp's Bach Suites...I won't tell if you won't ;D
(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/asheville/Bach%20Suites.jpg)
Sarge
Quote from: val on May 22, 2007, 01:12:25 AM
Regarding Brahms 3rd Symphony I had an ideal version in LP, Böhm with the VPO in a mono version from the fifties. But I cannot find it in CD.
...... yummy .......
Quote from: Hector on May 22, 2007, 06:51:30 AM
The other work is Elgar's 2nd.
Hector, resistance is futile. You know in your heart Sinopoli got it right. Just admit it, in a loud and confident voice before your peers and the Queen. You'll feel better in the morning. ;D
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 22, 2007, 01:17:40 PM
I own Klemp's Bach Suites...I won't tell if you won't
Interesting. Be assured, I won't tell anyone.The Japanese, thank goodness, refuse to be fashionable when it comes to classical music, so I was able to obtain the 1960 recording of the Bach Brandenburgs from Klemperer and the Philharmonia (from HMV in Tokyo, an EMI-Japan release). The recording seems to be banned in pretty well every other country, a reason for being deeply aggrieved at the dictatorship of the Harpsichord Brigade.
What does one want from a recording of the Brandenburgs? a) clarity of texture -- we need to hear all the parts b) balance of sound c) top-of-the-range playing in both solos and tuttis d) a sense of overall structure e) a sense of depth and perspective in the recording.
Well, so far I have only listened to Brandenburgs 1-3 of this set. But, so far, the Klemperer set has all of these qualities. I am delightfully amazed. Perhaps at last -- after much hunting, trial and error, it has to be said -- I have found my ideal set of Bach's Brandenburg concerti. And not a plucking harpsichord in sight (except for the fifth Brandenburg).
I have multiple recordings of any piece I love. If I don't love the music, I don't even want one recording of it. I think it was Artur Schnabel who once said that the music is greater than the performance, which meant that you always could find something new when performing the same pieces. Thus, I'm always in search of a new great performance to lend insight into the heart of the music.
Quote from: Daverz on May 21, 2007, 08:18:02 PM
Gliere, Ilya Murometz. Rakhlin might be the best (I have a transfer from Lp; don't remember who did it off the top of my head). Stokowski is very good for what it is, a chopped to bit version of the score. Of course, some people think the music is shit anyway.
I first discovered that amazing work on the Naxos disc (Johanos) a few weeks ago ... it really left me stunned. What an awesome piece!
As for what conductors get wrong in the pieces I picked ... dunno, have never found recs I love completely. Take the Tchaikovsky Serenade as an example. (I haven't heard your Barbirolli rec, seems unavailable on ArkivMusic too.) Nearly everyone seems to take the very opening kind of limply, and a hair quickly. The transition to the first subject always strikes me as off ... hm. The serenade as a whole seems to be a fluid stream of consciousness, which seems a rare interpretive style ... Honestly, I have never seen the score and don't know what Tchaikovsky intended; I just know that my recordings don't sound like my ideal. Sorry I can't help :(
Quote from: dtwilbanks on May 21, 2007, 08:41:23 AM
The 9th of LvB. Someone always louses something up.
Yep, that's a tough one that occupied me for years. But believe me, it exists! ;D
(Furtwängler Lucerne '54. Also like Jochum/RCO.)
Quote from: D Minor on May 21, 2007, 02:03:17 PM
LvB's Missa Solemnis . . . . . . . . Klemperer is pretty damn close . . . . . . . but not quite tout à fait au point . . . . . .
Ditto for me! But I have still two on my list to try: Jochum/RCO and Kubelik/BRSO.
But frankly I think the problem is in the balance between orchestra and choir. Something I guess can only be satisfactory solved by a HIP recording. Unfortunately, I don't like the Gardiner... :-\
Q
Quote from: George on May 21, 2007, 03:55:56 PM
Fricsay,
Karajan '62,
Karajan '77
I have both Karajans, and lots more but I usually will listen to Wand's.
Quote from: orbital on May 22, 2007, 12:11:42 PM
;D
I misread HEctor's post as if he was looking for a satisfying Elgar's Cello concerto and I recommended Fournier, but what he actually wrote was Edgar's 2nd symphony :-[
Him as well! ???
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 22, 2007, 01:35:29 PM
Hector, resistance is futile. You know in your heart Sinopoli got it right. Just admit it, in a loud and confident voice before your peers and the Queen. You'll feel better in the morning. ;D
Sarge
In my deep, dark heart of unfathomable blackness I know that Boult got it right.
But which recording?
There are two conductors who could never get it right and should have been discouraged: Soltnopoli and Sinolti. The very though Aaaaaaaaaah!
Quote from: Que on May 22, 2007, 10:00:39 PM
But frankly I think the problem is in the balance between orchestra and choir. Something I guess can only be satisfactory solved by a HIP recording. Unfortunately, I don't like the Gardiner... :-\
Q
Herreweghe's version has a near perfect balance between o / c - it may or may not be the tonmeister's doing, but it sounds good to these ears, with most sung words now being intelligible.
Quote from: fl.traverso on May 23, 2007, 11:38:23 AM
Herreweghe's version has a near perfect balance between o / c - it may or may not be the tonmeister's doing, but it sounds good to these ears, with every sung word now being intelligible rather than mumbled.
Thank you! :)
QuoteJS BACH - Patron Saint of the Harpsichord Brigade
Nice... ;D
Q
Quote from: Que on May 23, 2007, 11:55:34 AM
Thank you! :)
To me it is rather plausible to suggest that, at the premiere of the ninth, the choir and vocal soloists were actually placed IN FRONT OF the orchestra, rather than the other way around, as in most modern performances. Indeed this would have resolved the problem of balance rather nicely, with a choir that is closer and thus more audible to the audience offstage. Supposedly the orchestral musicians were seated in the back, perhaps on terraced platforms like Berlioz's orchestra in Paris Conservatory shortly after.
Quote from: fl.traverso on May 23, 2007, 11:38:23 AM
Herreweghe's version has a near perfect balance between o / c - it may or may not be the tonmeister's doing, but it sounds good to these ears, with most sung words now being intelligible.
I have heard very mixed reports about Herreweghe's Ninth. On one hand I hear that the singing is very good and on the other I hear (and in more than one place) that the soprano is noticeably flat in a few places. From what I have read, the recording has not garnered any great acclaim. I will be glad if someone here buys it and can give an honest appraisal of this recording. Meanwhile, I'm afraid that I'm still on the fence for this one.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 21, 2007, 01:58:14 PM
You might consider Karajan's '77 Berlin recording. It was a Grand Prix du Disque winner and comes highly recommended by several British critics, including Ivan March who says, "Both soloists sing with eloquence. What is especially appealing is the beautifully recorded contribution of the Vienna Singverein, full and well focused (just sample the grave ‘Denn alles Fleisch, es ist wie Gras’ – so well balanced with the orchestra)."
Sarge
This recommendation for a new Brahms A German Requiem came today, and I'm listening to it now. There's certainly some energy and excitement here that's missing from other recordings I own. The acoustic is a little 'crowded' (perhaps 'busy' is a better word), and I'd like to hear it on good hifi equipment before passing final judgement. But on the whole, I am at least enjoying what I'm hearing ... so all good so far. :)
Quote from: Bunny on May 23, 2007, 01:07:34 PM
I have heard very mixed reports about Herreweghe's Ninth. On one hand I hear that the singing is very good and on the other I hear (and in more than one place) that the soprano is noticeably flat in a few places. From what I have read, the recording has not garnered any great acclaim. I will be glad if someone here buys it and can give an honest appraisal of this recording. Meanwhile, I'm afraid that I'm still on the fence for this one.
Well Q. didn't ask for a "be-all-and-end-all" ninth, only one with a great o/c balance, hence my recommendation of the Herreweghe. I wouldn't be surprised if you have different priorities in choosing your next recording to purchase. ;)
Quote from: fl.traverso on May 23, 2007, 01:29:27 PM
Well Q. didn't ask for a "be-all-and-end-all" ninth, only one with a great o/c balance, hence my recommendation of the Herreweghe. I wouldn't be surprised if you have different priorities in choosing your next recording to purchase. ;)
Priorities aside, I don't know what I'll be purchasing as my dear friend FL spurred me to take the hit for a certain Haydn recording by the Apponyi Quartett (and I am
very sorry about my wallet. :'( )
As the thread is about recordings that don't quite meet the standard of perfection, perhaps the Herreweghe will fit right in. >:D
Quote from: Bunny on May 23, 2007, 02:19:27 PM
Priorities aside, I don't know what I'll be purchasing as my dear friend FL spurred me to take the hit for a certain Haydn recording by the Apponyi Quartett (and I am very sorry about my wallet. :'( )
I hope your "dear friend" didn't urge you to buy expensive! :)
QuoteAs the thread is about recordings that don't quite meet the standard of perfection, perhaps the Herreweghe will fit right in. >:D
As do most other recordongs of the ninth. Too bad the thread will be too short for all recordings ever made to be nominated in it. >:D
Quote from: fl.traverso on May 23, 2007, 01:29:27 PM
Well Q. didn't ask for a "be-all-and-end-all" ninth, only one with a great o/c balance, hence my recommendation of the Herreweghe. I wouldn't be surprised if you have different priorities in choosing your next recording to purchase. ;)
Ha! Whe have a misunderstanding: I was talking about the Missa Solemnis! ;D
And thought you recommended Herreweghe's recording of
that... But I find your comments on the ninth very interesting nonetheless, and I guess they apply to the Missa Solemnis too. :)
Q
Quote from: Que on May 23, 2007, 10:58:42 PM
Ha! Whe have a misunderstanding: I was talking about the Missa Solemnis! ;D
And thought you recommended Herreweghe's recording of that... But I find your comments on the ninth very interesting nonetheless, and I guess they apply to the Missa Solemnis too. :)
Q
OOOPS! :P
Herreweghe's Missa Solemnis is quite a bit fuzzily recorded than his ninth, being a live recording and all. Zinman's cheap recording, while not really hip, has more clarity in that department, I think, and doesn't sound small either. While there is no perfect recording of the ninth in my book - based on the factor of o/c balance alone - it's even worse in the case of the Missa. Perhaps Andreas Spering, Christoph Spering or Bruno Weil will make a near perfect recording (again in that regard) for us one day. Meanwhile I am getting some cheap thrills from the Hanover Band/Kerje Kvam recording. Very nebulous sound - it's a NIMBUS (tm)! - but it has some rather exposed brass playing (on the level of Savall's Eroica and Derek Solomon's Schumann) which I rather enjoy in this kind of music.
Quote from: fl.traverso on May 23, 2007, 11:52:47 PM
While there is no perfect recording of the ninth in my book - based on the factor of o/c balance alone - it's even worse in the case of the Missa.
My sentiments exactly. :)
QuotePerhaps Andreas Spering, Christoph Spering or Bruno Weil will make a near perfect recording (again in that regard) for us one day.
Again I agree - I'm counting on them as well, and would add Frieder Bernius and Thomas Hengelbrock as contenders. Hope it shall not be long until one of them takes on the challenge! :D
Q
Quote from: Que on May 24, 2007, 12:00:10 AM
My sentiments exactly. :)
Again I agree - I'm counting on them as well, and would add Frieder Bernius and Thomas Hengelbrock as contenders. Hope it shall not be long until one of them takes on the challenge! :D
Q
Bernius is a very gifted choral conductor, but he never seems to be interested in anything later than Willibald Gluck. Ditto Ton Koopman (Mozart) and Thomas Hengelbrock (Haydn). Marc Minkowski can drive his music with a turbo like there is no tomorrow - imo what a great Missa performance needs - but I don't think he will touch Beethoven either. Alas! :-\
Actually another near perfect candidate for recording a near perfect Beethoven Missa is Martin Haselböck, whose work released on the Caprriccio label has been somehow neglected. His Haydn, which I have heard, is vital, and he has since made very hip recordings of Schubert Masses and Bruckner Symphony No. 1. Perhaps he will be obliged.
Quote from: fl.traverso on May 24, 2007, 12:17:07 AM
Bernius is a very gifted choral conductor, but he never seems to be interested in anything later than Willibald Gluck. Ditto Ton Koopman (Mozart) and Thomas Hengelbrock (Haydn). Marc Minkowski can drive his music with a turbo like there is no tomorrow - imo what a great Missa performance needs - but I don't think he will touch Beethoven either. Alas! :-\
Minkowksi is an interesting prospect! :D I think of all mentioned, Bruno Weil did the most LvB sofar (including the Choral Fantasy), so if I would have to make a bet my money would be on him!
BTW, Bernius did some Mozart, Mendelssohn and Brahms on
Carus (http://www.carus-verlag.com/index.php3?BLink=Bernius).
Q
Quote from: Que on May 24, 2007, 12:30:09 AM
BTW, Bernius did some Mozart, Mendelssohn and Brahms on Carus (http://www.carus-verlag.com/index.php3?BLink=Bernius).
Q
Thanks for the info on Bernius. I guess I have overlooked his more recent work. Ditto Martin Haselböck whom I mentioned in my edit of last message. There is also Marcus Creed in the camp of choral conductors who are sympathetic to the hip cause. All hope is not lost for a near-perfect Beethoven Missa as a sound document! :D
ps. If recording Rossini's Petite Messe solennelle can be taken as a sign of larger things to come, then Robert King here in UK can probably also qualify in our list of hopefuls.
Quote from: fl.traverso on May 23, 2007, 08:28:22 PM
I hope your "dear friend" didn't urge you to buy expensive! :)
As do most other recordongs of the ninth. Too bad the thread will be too short for all recordings ever made to be nominated in it. >:D
No, merely to take it as a suggestion if I ever came across it. However, once I came across it, it became the so called irresistable force and I was far from an immovable object. I'm sure if he's lurking around he will have a chuckle at this.
Quote from: Bunny on May 24, 2007, 08:54:11 AM
No, merely to take it as a suggestion if I ever came across it. However, once I came across it, it became the so called irresistable force and I was far from an immovable object. I'm sure if he's lurking around he will have a chuckle at this.
He is not lurking anymore! ;D
So I had guessed. ;D
As for the German Requiem I am quite happy with Klemperer EXCEPT for Schwarzkopf who I despise here (her tone and way of singing are as far from motherly comfort as it gets). In fact, of the half dozen or so versions I have heard, the soprano solo is usually a problem. Maybe it is too high/too difficult to be sung in a warm and simple fashion as it should.
(Despite an unsatisfactory soprano the Kegel is a "black horse" but deserves consideration, mainly for the superb choral contribution)
The first candidate of mine would probably be Schubert's "Great C major".
Admittedly, I probably do not like the piece as much as I should (so I don't really feel getting ever more recordings beyond the dozen or so I have) but it also seems very difficult to strike a balance between the more classicist and romantic aspects of the piece. My favorite romantic one is the wartime live Furtwängler which has of course not very good sound and it is far from "balanced" as well. (In a similar vein, all historical: Mengelberg, Furtwängler studio, Abendroth). Of the more classical ones, E. Kleiber also has substandard sound and Leibowitz I remember as too fast and relentless, especially in the Andante. Szell is also a little too "classical" for my taste. Weil/HIP is even drier than that. Not impressed with the one by Wand I heard. Davis/Dresden is not bad but too relaxed and kapellmeisterish.
So I don't know. A wild ride like Furtwängler as far as contrasts and expression go, but faster, a little more controlled but without falling into quasi-Haydn with chamber orchestra (nothing against Haydn, he was a better symphony composer than Schubert, but there is nothing chamber-like about the great C major!)
Another one: Beethoven's op.106 sonata.
Gulda is close to my ideas of the tempo but he is quite "cool" and somewhat rigid, especially in the slow movement. Others with fast outer movements have ludicrously slow adagios (e.g Korstick) or other problems (Schnabel = messy playing in outer movements). Good and "deep" ones (Gilels) are usually too slow for my taste... Pollini and Rosen are among the best compromises but they are too slow for what I would like to hear.
Quote from: Jo498 on October 08, 2016, 07:03:16 AM
The first candidate of mine would probably be Schubert's "Great C major".
Admittedly, I probably do not like the piece as much as I should (so I don't really feel getting ever more recordings beyond the dozen or so I have) but it also seems very difficult to strike a balance between the more classicist and romantic aspects of the piece. My favorite romantic one is the wartime live Furtwängler which has of course not very good sound and it is far from "balanced" as well. (In a similar vein, all historical: Mengelberg, Furtwängler studio, Abendroth). Of the more classical ones, E. Kleiber also has substandard sound and Leibowitz I remember as too fast and relentless, especially in the Andante. Szell is also a little too "classical" for my taste. Weil/HIP is even drier than that. Not impressed with the one by Wand I heard. Davis/Dresden is not bad but too relaxed and kapellmeisterish.
[asin]B000001GIL[/asin]
It would be hard for me to imagine that you wouldn't find this one very satisfying. It was the best I had heard when I got it, and it is the best I have heard since then too. I rarely recommend things, but I do make an exception once or twice a year. :)
8)
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 08, 2016, 07:49:42 AM
It would be hard for me to imagine that you wouldn't find this one very satisfying
That's a good one. Also, for various different approaches:
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/035/MI0001035839.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51hLpddQ4kL.jpg)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51qS6f2L3XL.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71weukftoML._SL1200_.jpg)
I had a hard time finding a set of Beethoven's Piano Sonatas I liked. I started listening to classical in late 1986. Kempff, and Gilels were well-regarded by the Penguin Guide, so over the next few years, I bought Kempff's box set and individual CDs by Gilels, as well as assorted discs Arrau, Pollini, O'Connor, and Serkin. I didn't really like any of them. I tried Richard Goode during the '90s. I wasn't moved by it, either. I figured I'd given it a try, and I just didn't like the music, so I sold most of the CDs and didn't think about it again.
In 2005, I discovered Paul Lewis' first disc (Op. 31-1/2/3) courtesy of a Gramophone mention. I had never heard such wonderful playing, such tunefulness, in any other recording I'd owned. I couldn't believe I hadn't liked this music the first time I heard it (Kempff). I played the Lewis CD for the following year as if it were the only one I owned. As the new volumes came out, I eagerly bought each one. Within that time frame, Andras Schiff released his series one by one, and I found I liked them as much as or more than the Lewis versions.
Then I found George's beloved Annie Fischer box set for $9.99 as MP3s. I like those a lot now, too.
I have a similar, and still ongoing, issue with my favorite tune from the Great American Songbook, "The Way You Look Tonight." It's a greater American song than any recording of it I have heard (Sinatra, Fitzgerald, Astaire, Bennett, Buble, the Lettermen, Connick, Tyrell, or any instrumental [words' lives matter]).
I had the opposite issue with some of my favorites, probably because of the imprint principle. No Mahler 6 matters to me except for Bernstein's CBS recording. I know it has a lot to do with the speedy opening, but when I play anyone else's No. 6, it just doesn't sound right. I have probably switched to the Bernstein recording as often as not when playing another version. I caught the Must Have Different Versions of Favorites bug early on, and with a lot of music, I enjoy any version (Mozart's Piano Concertos, for example; Mahler 3, Mahler 7). Also, no version of Mahler's 9th sounds as right in the first movement as Bernstein's on CBS. It's also the first version I heard. Same with HvK's 1977 Beethoven 9 and Mahler 4.
The Imprint Principle rules. I've learned by now I don't have to try everything, and have settled on, for example, buying just one and a half sets of Shostakovich's String Quartets (Emerson, Jerusalem).
Thanks for the pointers. I would not have thought about Sinopoli. I have/had the "chromium heaven" Karajan/DG (supposedly different from the EMI) that's not what I want. He is worst of both worlds: quite fast and straighforward but also massive with glaring brass, a sound I do not associate with Schubert. This was my first CD and it almost turned me off the piece... not being a great Karajan fan and not liking the DG I am not really in a hurry to try the EMI, I am afraid.
Giulini/Chicago I found disappointing as well: glacially Brucknerian. There is some blurb in the booklet about Giulini refusing to conduct the piece until pondering for years about the tempo relation of the intro and main allegro. But his "solution", playing the main allegro very slowly and with odd phrasing/articulation in the main subject I found unbearably mannered and not at all convincing.
I seem to be fairly easy to please in recordings of Schubert 9. I've greatly enjoyed Walter/NYP (good mono), Klemperer, Munch, Konwitschny,... basically the last recordings of it I've heard.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV9YoCIxopc (Walter/NYP)
Quote from: Jo498 on October 08, 2016, 10:42:40 AM
Giulini/Chicago I found disappointing as well: glacially Brucknerian. There is some blurb in the booklet about Giulini refusing to conduct the piece until pondering for years about the tempo relation of the intro and main allegro. But his "solution", playing the main allegro very slowly and with odd phrasing/articulation in the main subject...
I have that in a box but have not listened to it yet. Will do that now. You make it sound like my kind of alternative Schubert Ninth (favorite being Szell's speedy account). Thanks for the "recommendation" ;)
Sarge
Sarge should listen to Bruno Maderna's Schubert 9 (I can upload it if you want)
I got the Giulini when the Chicago and LA boxes were sold cheaply (slightly before they packed all of them into a box). If one likes his massive style there is a lot to like there. That Schubert 9th is a very highly regarded and respected recording, so there is a good chance you will like it. It's just that I think it is overly Brucknerian, that first movement is really very odd and in any case it does not come close to the "golden mean" I have in mind.
I just discovered that I do have the Munch in the "Romantic Masterworks" box. Not sure if I ever listened to that one. I should probably also give Klemperer and Szell another try.
If I am not forgetting any, I have
Mengelberg (ca. 1940, some cheapo documents box)
Furtwängler/DG live wartime
Furtwängler/DG studio
Abendroth live (Berlin Classics)
Klemperer
Munch
Szell
E. Kleiber/Cologne (Decca Masters Box)
Barbirolli/Hallé
Giulini/Chicago
Harnoncourt/Concertgebouw
Keitel/Putbus (super cheap on Arte Nova and actually pretty good in the early symphonies, don't remember their 9th)
Weil (my only true "HIP")
Davis/Dresden
I owned the Karajan/DG and one of Wand's (I think NDR live) but got rid of them years ago.
As the notorious M forever also loves the Sinopoli and an unlikely agreement between him and Gurn might have some meaning ;) I'll put it on my list although I feel that I have enough recordings of the piece...
Quote from: Holden on May 21, 2007, 05:03:16 PM
Chopin PS #2
Saint-Saens PC #2
Verdi Requiem
Interesting to read what I wrote nine years ago. Since then I've solved the Verdi Requiem problem. Karajan's La Scala Milan with Price, Cosotto, Pavarotti and Ghiaurov is my go to recording, even though it's a DVD.
No luck yet with the Chopin or Saint-Saens.
Quote from: Jo498 on October 08, 2016, 12:28:22 PM
I just discovered that I do have the Munch in the "Romantic Masterworks" box. Not sure if I ever listened to that one. I should probably also give Klemperer and Szell another try.
The Szell convinced me. I didn't care much for the symphony before hearing Szell. But as you said in a previous post, it's quite "classical" and may not be the ideal classic/romantic hybrid you seem to be looking for.
Quote from: Mandryka on October 08, 2016, 12:18:07 PM
Sarge should listen to Bruno Maderna's Schubert 9
Why? I mean, why would you recommend it? As an alternative to Szell? I have these so I'm satisfied I've covered most, if not all, of the bases.
DOHNANYI CLEVELAND
FURTWÄNGLER BERLIN PHIL
KLEMPERER PHILHARMONIA
ABENDROTH RSO LEIPZIG
DAVIS STAATSKAPELLE DRESDEN
BERNSTEIN CONCERTGEBOUW
WAND BERLIN PHIL
SINOPOLI STAATSKAPELLE DRESDEN
CELIBIDACHE MUNICH PHIL
SZELL CLEVELAND
GIULINI CHICAGO
GOODMAN HANOVER BAND
HARNONCOURT CONCERTGEBOUW
IMMERSEEL ANIMA ETERNA
BLOMSTEDT STAATSKAPELLE DRESDEN
MAAZEL SOBR
ABBADO COE
But if you think Maderna an interesting choice, then please, upload it.
Sarge
Two above all:
The Bruckner 7th, where next to nobody plays the opening of the first movement at Bruckner's metronome mark, or the rhythms of the scherzo as notated.
Wozzeck, where the recordings that are accurate (like Dohnanyi and Boulez) seem lifeless, and the recordings that are lively (like Mitropoulos) are inaccurate.
Shostakovich
Waltz #2
Which Karlo and I were discussing ... a touch slower, a touch less dynamic range.
Mozart
Symphony #40
Bohm is closest, but I'd like that approach HIP. Hogwood is pretty good but not quite there yet.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on October 08, 2016, 02:34:37 PM
Two above all:
The Bruckner 7th, where next to nobody plays the opening of the first movement at Bruckner's metronome mark,
That is marked cut time half note = 58 and Allegro Moderato. Most performances are probably a tad slower but not much. I don't really have a beef with it. My beef is the cymbal clash where the piece actually sounds BETTER without it. WIth the clash it just sounds overkill plus no 2 performances really have the clash at exactly the same time it seems like.
I was going to say which idiot started this thread and then realize it was yours truly (has it been 9 yrs?)
There are plenty of Bruckner 7ths recordings without cymbal clash, I think. If I am not mistaken e.g. Gielen/SWF is both reasonably fleet (about 18 min for the first movement, less than 60 for the symphony) and omits the cymbals (and the older Rosbaud is in the same vein).
Beethoven's Hammerklavier and Schumann's Carnaval, both of which I've heard almost no recordings of that are faithful to the score and successfully manage to convey the feeling of the work at the same time. In the case of the Hammerklavier, almost no one can convey the feeling of the work at all, regardless of how close they are to the score.
Schumann's Davidsbündlertänze, Chopin's Sonata No. 3, and Beethoven's Op. 130 with the substitute finale, all of which I haven't yet found recordings that ideally express the nature of the music.
As the converse, I can think of two pieces I've heard where every single recording I know of is good—Dvořák's Op. 51 and Ravel's Piano Trio.
Quote from: amw on October 09, 2016, 12:30:51 AM
Beethoven's Hammerklavier and Schumann's Carnaval, both of which I've heard almost no recordings of that are faithful to the score and successfully manage to convey the feeling of the work at the same time. In the case of the Hammerklavier, almost no one can convey the feeling of the work at all, regardless of how close they are to the score.
Schumann's Davidsbündlertänze, Chopin's Sonata No. 3, and Beethoven's Op. 130 with the substitute finale, all of which I haven't yet found recordings that ideally express the nature of the music.
As the converse, I can think of two pieces I've heard where every single recording I know of is good—Dvořák's Op. 51 and Ravel's Piano Trio.
What's this alternative final palaver in op 130 about? I agree about dbt, I've never explored carnival, I've given up on op 106, I don't know what you're looking for in the Chopin.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 08, 2016, 12:54:12 PM
The Szell convinced me. I didn't care much for the symphony before hearing Szell. But as you said in a previous post, it's quite "classical" and may not be the ideal classic/romantic hybrid you seem to be looking for.
Why? I mean, why would you recommend it? As an alternative to Szell? I have these so I'm satisfied I've covered most, if not all, of the bases.
DOHNANYI CLEVELAND
FURTWÄNGLER BERLIN PHIL
KLEMPERER PHILHARMONIA
ABENDROTH RSO LEIPZIG
DAVIS STAATSKAPELLE DRESDEN
BERNSTEIN CONCERTGEBOUW
WAND BERLIN PHIL
SINOPOLI STAATSKAPELLE DRESDEN
CELIBIDACHE MUNICH PHIL
SZELL CLEVELAND
GIULINI CHICAGO
GOODMAN HANOVER BAND
HARNONCOURT CONCERTGEBOUW
IMMERSEEL ANIMA ETERNA
BLOMSTEDT STAATSKAPELLE DRESDEN
MAAZEL SOBR
ABBADO COE
But if you think Maderna an interesting choice, then please, upload it.
Sarge
I'll send you the files, more bracing than Sz, Maderna's like someone throws a glass of cold water in your face. No that's not quite fair because it's so elegant and light and sunny.
Quote from: amw on October 09, 2016, 12:30:51 AM
Beethoven's Hammerklavier and Schumann's Carnaval, both of which I've heard almost no recordings of that are faithful to the score and successfully manage to convey the feeling of the work at the same time. In the case of the Hammerklavier, almost no one can convey the feeling of the work at all, regardless of how close they are to the score.
How would you distinguish between "feeling" and closeness to the score in these cases? Would it be like, e.g. a performance of the Missa solemnis that made a lot of details and voices audible that are usually lost among the huge forces but did not convey emotion of exultation, devotion etc.?
Quote
Beethoven's Op. 130 with the substitute finale, all of which I haven't yet found recordings that ideally express the nature of the music.
Do you mean you have found satisfactory recordings/performances with the fugue as finale? Cannot one usually program most recordings for both versions?
May ask you favorites for Schubert's Great C major?
Quote from: Mandryka on October 09, 2016, 12:56:13 AM
What's this alternative final palaver in op 130 about? I agree about dbt, I've never explored carnival, I've given up on op 106, I don't know what you're looking for in the Chopin.
The problem with Op. 130 is always reconciling its incoherent extremes—it's got that incredibly weird first movement, a 4/4 scherzo, two movements in keys a tritone apart with no justification, that inexplicable outburst in the Cavatina, etc. When you're playing it with the Grosse Fuge—or as many string quartets do on record, with the Grosse Fuge first and then substitute finale second—you can drive these contrasts hard because the Fuge will be the payoff, and concentrate your energies on that and using its gradual dissolution and reconstruction to "resolve" the rest of the piece. The Fuge is what the entire work is driving towards; it's the emotional centre.
When you instead have the 1826 finale, the Cavatina becomes the emotional centre. Not that it isn't a lovely movement (and one that has haunted me for most of my life—especially this bit (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/32084883/cavatina%20adagio%20molto%20espressivo.mp3)) but in terms of actual content it is very slight, and making it carry so much weight and tension is difficult. The 1826 finale is partially resolution and mostly a simple dismissal. This makes it difficult to render convincingly because no matter what is done with it there will be a sense of material left unresolved—Beethoven ensures this at every turn in the finale, with regular phrases that "sound" irregular, a structure that often seems unclear whether it wants to be sonata or rondo, bizarre transitions and at the very end literally leaving the music hanging on the final semiquaver of a bar. So a good performance cannot shy away from this sense of irresolution and incoherency but has to, at the same time, make it remain unresolved with great conviction. The Grosse Fuge does not require conviction, simply good intonation and lots and lots of caffeine. For that reason I think the version of Op. 130 with the 1826 finale is by far the more difficult to interpret.
Chopin I look for a pianist who's very sensitive to phrasing and nuance, takes the repeat and doesn't play around with the tempo too much.
Quote from: Jo498 on October 09, 2016, 01:07:35 AM
How would you distinguish between "feeling" and closeness to the score in these cases? Would it be like, e.g. a performance of the Missa solemnis that made a lot of details and voices audible that are usually lost among the huge forces but did not convey emotion of exultation, devotion etc.?
Typically with Beethoven (I'd include the Missa solemnis as an example) simply playing exactly what's written in the score will bring out those qualities of exultation, devotion, etc. This doesn't mean just the notes (like a computer program) but also the dynamics, articulations, tempi, expressive marks, etc. Human beings interpret all of these things subjectively of course, but each one will bring out their own subjective feelings of that kind of thing from careful and considered interaction with the score.
The Hammerklavier seems to be an exception mostly because of how difficult it is to perform the score accurately. So the ones that come closest are typically playing the notes, tempi and sometimes dynamics but missing out on the rest, and the rest is quite important and in the case of Beethoven (where a lot of contextual information from his time period is necessary) needs a certain amount of study to understand.
Quote
Do you mean you have found satisfactory recordings/performances with the fugue as finale? Cannot one usually program most recordings for both versions?
One can, but typically, whichever option is listed first on the CD is the finale that informed the interpretation of the other five movements in the performance. Programming the last track instead is similar to taking a CD recording of Mahler's 6th and programming the middle movements in the reverse order. Perfectly fine to do, but not what the interpreters intended.
The satisfactory recordings/performances I know of with the fugue as finale are the Hagen Quartet and the Takács Quartet. (They also play the alternative finale on the subsequent track. I'm not sure how well it works programming that instead of the fugue.) I think the most satisfactory recording I know of with the 1826 finale is the Belcea Quartet but I'm still not totally convinced—they skip the first movement repeat and tend to overplay a bit.
Quote
May ask you favorites for Schubert's Great C major?
I won't be very helpful sorry. I think I liked Minkowski the best, also one of the Wands (probably NDR rather than Köln) and Bernstein with the NYPO which nobody else is going to like. It's not a piece I have ever done much comparing of though.
Quote from: amw on October 09, 2016, 01:53:18 AM
The problem with Op. 130 is always reconciling its incoherent extremes—it's got that incredibly weird first movement, a 4/4 scherzo, two movements in keys a tritone apart with no justification, that inexplicable outburst in the Cavatina, etc. When you're playing it with the Grosse Fuge—or as many string quartets do on record, with the Grosse Fuge first and then substitute finale second—you can drive these contrasts hard because the Fuge will be the payoff, and concentrate your energies on that and using its gradual dissolution and reconstruction to "resolve" the rest of the piece. The Fuge is what the entire work is driving towards; it's the emotional centre.
When you instead have the 1826 finale, the Cavatina becomes the emotional centre. Not that it isn't a lovely movement (and one that has haunted me for most of my life—especially this bit (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/32084883/cavatina%20adagio%20molto%20espressivo.mp3)) but in terms of actual content it is very slight, and making it carry so much weight and tension is difficult. The 1826 finale is partially resolution and mostly a simple dismissal. This makes it difficult to render convincingly because no matter what is done with it there will be a sense of material left unresolved—Beethoven ensures this at every turn in the finale, with regular phrases that "sound" irregular, a structure that often seems unclear whether it wants to be sonata or rondo, bizarre transitions and at the very end literally leaving the music hanging on the final semiquaver of a bar. So a good performance cannot shy away from this sense of irresolution and incoherency but has to, at the same time, make it remain unresolved with great conviction. The Grosse Fuge does not require conviction, simply good intonation and lots and lots of caffeine. For that reason I think the version of Op. 130 with the 1826 finale is by far the more difficult to interpret.
Chopin I look for a pianist who's very sensitive to phrasing and nuance, takes the repeat and doesn't play around with the tempo too much.
Typically with Beethoven (I'd include the Missa solemnis as an example) simply playing exactly what's written in the score will bring out those qualities of exultation, devotion, etc. This doesn't mean just the notes (like a computer program) but also the dynamics, articulations, tempi, expressive marks, etc. Human beings interpret all of these things subjectively of course, but each one will bring out their own subjective feelings of that kind of thing from careful and considered interaction with the score.
The Hammerklavier seems to be an exception mostly because of how difficult it is to perform the score accurately. So the ones that come closest are typically playing the notes, tempi and sometimes dynamics but missing out on the rest, and the rest is quite important and in the case of Beethoven (where a lot of contextual information from his time period is necessary) needs a certain amount of study to understand.
One can, but typically, whichever option is listed first on the CD is the finale that informed the interpretation of the other five movements in the performance. Programming the last track instead is similar to taking a CD recording of Mahler's 6th and programming the middle movements in the reverse order. Perfectly fine to do, but not what the interpreters intended.
The satisfactory recordings/performances I know of with the fugue as finale are the Hagen Quartet and the Takács Quartet. (They also play the alternative finale on the subsequent track. I'm not sure how well it works programming that instead of the fugue.) I think the most satisfactory recording I know of with the 1826 finale is the Belcea Quartet but I'm still not totally convinced—they skip the first movement repeat and tend to overplay a bit.
I won't be very helpful sorry. I think I liked Minkowski the best, also one of the Wands (probably NDR rather than Köln) and Bernstein with the NYPO which nobody else is going to like. It's not a piece I have ever done much comparing of though.
Yes sorry I was going mad and I was confusing op 130 with op 109! Senior moment. Sorry to have given you so much trouble for nothing. For what it's worth, there's a lot of discussion of this in the first recording of the quartet by the Tokyo Quartet, and they claim to have prepared the ground for the fugue by the way they play the cavatina.
Another thing I found interesting when I was thinking about this very question was the final recording that the Busch quartet made. They were resolutely in favour of using the "rondo" finale, and really perfected it, found a way of making it sound less triv than normal. The recording I'm thinking of is a live one which arbiter released, if you want it let me know - it'll be my way of making amends for putting you to all that trouble.
I really liked the Busch recording on Warner (with the 1826 finale also—don't know how I forgot that as a recommendable version) so sure, would love to hear it. Busches are more or less definitive in Beethoven.
Quote from: Jo498 on October 08, 2016, 12:28:22 PM
If I am not forgetting any, I have
Mengelberg (ca. 1940, some cheapo documents box)
Furtwängler/DG live wartime
Furtwängler/DG studio
Abendroth live (Berlin Classics)
Klemperer
Munch
Szell
E. Kleiber/Cologne (Decca Masters Box)
Barbirolli/Hallé
Giulini/Chicago
Harnoncourt/Concertgebouw
Keitel/Putbus (super cheap on Arte Nova and actually pretty good in the early symphonies, don't remember their 9th)
Weil (my only true "HIP")
Davis/Dresden
I owned the Karajan/DG and one of Wand's (I think NDR live) but got rid of them years ago.
I don't want to send you on a wild goose chase, but I'm missing my favourite Old School favourite
Josef Krips:
[asin]B00020QWAU[/asin]
My HIP favourite is
Van Immerseel. Some really Old School I like are
Bruno Walter (LPO 1938) and also the
Mengelberg from 1940 that you have.
Q
Though there are 100 recordings of The Planets, I am not completely happy with any of them. Each can be improved upon in some way. Same with Mahler 2 and Shostakovitch 5.
Quote from: relm1 on October 09, 2016, 12:35:31 PM
Though there are 100 recordings of The Planets, I am not completely happy with any of them. Each can be improved upon in some way. Same with Mahler 2 and Shostakovitch 5.
In the case of M2 I find it very hard to stomach the fact that there are so many conductors who can't seem to conduct what is written in the score. Just the opening 10 bars or so pretty much no one tries to distinguish between ff, fff, staccato, and tenuto appropriately. Also the cello and contrabass ascending run in the second half of bar 4 is almost always wrong. There is no accent on the C nor did Mahler indicate ANY emphasis on the C whatsover.
Quote from: Jo498 on October 08, 2016, 12:28:22 PM
If I am not forgetting any, I have
Mengelberg (ca. 1940, some cheapo documents box)
Furtwängler/DG live wartime
Furtwängler/DG studio
Abendroth live (Berlin Classics)
Klemperer
Munch
Szell
E. Kleiber/Cologne (Decca Masters Box)
Barbirolli/Hallé
Giulini/Chicago
Harnoncourt/Concertgebouw
Keitel/Putbus (super cheap on Arte Nova and actually pretty good in the early symphonies, don't remember their 9th)
Weil (my only true "HIP")
Davis/Dresden
Good choices, quite similar to mine:
- Mengelberg,CtGeb/rad ye 40-98 ry 96
- Abendroth,LeipRSO/berl cl 49-92 bc2051-2
- Blomstedt,DresKap/berl clas 84-96 0093142bc (not sure I´ve still got it)
- Mengelberg,CtGeb/tim 42 29-00 205255-303
- Harnoncourt,CtGeb/warner 4cd 2564 62323-2
- Marriner,AcStM/ph 84 rh 215 041
- Furtwängler,BPO/dg 6lp 100 years
- Munch,BosSO/rca drl1-0072
- Szell,ClevSO/cbs 59-81 60132
- Kertesz,WPO/decca cs 6381
- Toscanini,NBCO/rca 53-xx mono lm-1835
To wade into the Schubert C major debate, I am very happy mwith one nobody has mentioned yet - Abbado COE. I have the Walter and it's very good and I've heard and liked the Krips.
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on October 09, 2016, 01:38:51 PM
In the case of M2 I find it very hard to stomach the fact that there are so many conductors who can't seem to conduct what is written in the score. Just the opening 10 bars or so pretty much no one tries to distinguish between ff, fff, staccato, and tenuto appropriately. Also the cello and contrabass ascending run in the second half of bar 4 is almost always wrong. There is no accent on the C nor did Mahler indicate ANY emphasis on the C whatsover.
I think it is a work that has so much detail that it is practically impossible to play it exactly as written and also get a musical performance. Conductors usually err on the side of musicality over accuracy which they should but that is also why I always feel it can be improved upon. One thing that bugs me, in the Mahler 8 with SFO/MTT, the organ is barely audible. Some say that is so it can better blend but a fortissimo organ with "full stops" is not going to blend. It's going to obliterate what ever is in its path and I think Mahler new that.
Regarding the Schubert 9 obsessing, anyone mention this one yet?
(https://img.discogs.com/-XU1U08gVLrs2UhEpYWdCl4YBnw=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-2569740-1290952966.jpeg.jpg)
my ideal Schubert 9 would have the exposition repeat in the outer mvts and not all of it in the 3rd, on modern instruments.
I admittedly have never heard the Böhm (there is another one from Dresden, preferred by some) or Krips but partly because I didn't expect "traditional" version to meet my expectations. Besides, I don't really like Böhm in Mozart or Beethoven.
Quote from: Ken B on October 08, 2016, 03:41:52 PM
Mozart
Symphony #40
Bohm is closest, but I'd like that approach HIP. Hogwood is pretty good but not quite there yet.
I think Gardiner might be apropos here?
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on October 08, 2016, 02:34:37 PM
The Bruckner 7th, where next to nobody plays the opening of the first movement at Bruckner's metronome mark, or the rhythms of the scherzo as notated.
Agreed. The more I love this symphony, the more frustrated I become by almost every recording.
Really surprised the Schubert 8th "9th" is a topic here - have heard many recordings of that piece I love, not least Harnoncourt or Mackerras (Philharmonia).
Quote from: Brian on October 10, 2016, 08:12:59 AM
Really surprised the Schubert 8th "9th" is a topic here - have heard many recordings of that piece I love, not least Harnoncourt or Mackerras (Philharmonia).
I think there is a problem to do with Schubert 9, and it has to do with the similarity at the level of rhythm and tempo from one movement to the next.
I seem to be particularly hard to please with Nielsen, especially the 5th symphony, clarinet concerto and Commotio. Own several recordings of each (5 clarinet concertos, 3 Commotios, 3 symphonies), yet not entirely happy with any. Until recently the same would have been true of the Byrd Great Service, but the Westminster Abbey Choir on my new Hyperion seem to do the job much as I like.
Bruckner 6th - even after the blind listening I held, which resulted in me owning over 20 versions of this saucy piece, I'm still truly without one I'd consider essential, or even my favorite. Many recording come close, but have one movement that is out of balance to the other three, or an ending coda that lacks steam, or an inaudible timpani in the opening movement's triumphant mid-climax, or a conductor that's too afraid to add a little interpretation, or a conductor that adds too much interpretation...see, I get picky. With that being said, it's not that I don't love some of the recordings I own (Haitink/Dresden, Blomstedt/Leipzig or SF, Celibidache/Muncih, Norrington/SWR Stuttgart, Nagano/DSOB to name a few) it's that I still haven't found THE ONE. But I do love this music.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 10, 2016, 05:59:22 PM
Bruckner 6th - even after the blind listening I held, which resulted in me owning over 20 versions of this saucy piece, I'm still truly without one I'd consider essential, or even my favorite. Many recording come close, but have one movement that is out of balance to the other three, or an ending coda that lacks steam, or an inaudible timpani in the opening movement's triumphant mid-climax, or a conductor that's too afraid to add a little interpretation, or a conductor that adds too much interpretation...see, I get picky. With that being said, it's not that I don't love some of the recordings I own (Haitink/Dresden, Blomstedt/Leipzig or SF, Celibidache/Muncih, Norrington/SWR Stuttgart, Nagano/DSOB to name a few) it's that I still haven't found THE ONE. But I do love this music.
Bruckner's 6th is a tricky one to pull off well that's for sure. I still like the Haitink/Dresden performance a lot and I also like HvK/Berliners, which is no surprise here. :)
Vaughan Williams: Symphony 6
Boult's Decca version is the best but it's a 1950s recording and I'd like a modern version which is as good.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 10, 2016, 05:59:22 PM
Bruckner 6th
I'm sure Klemperer and the New Philharmonia must have been among your 20, but that's the one for me - plenty of timpani, plenty (but not too much) interpretation, and one of the few performances I've heard to make sense of the 3:2 ratios that are all over the place in the first movement. And the first half of that movement's coda (the quiet half) is one of the most beautiful things ever recorded. IMHO.
Quote from: DaveF on October 11, 2016, 02:01:49 AM
I'm sure Klemperer and the New Philharmonia must have been among your 20, but that's the one for me - plenty of timpani, plenty (but not too much) interpretation, and one of the few performances I've heard to make sense of the 3:2 ratios that are all over the place in the first movement. And the first half of that movement's coda (the quiet half) is one of the most beautiful things ever recorded. IMHO.
My favourite too.
My brother told me that he heard the worst ever performance on the radio the other day with Simon Rattle conducting the opening movement at the speed of Mendelssohn's Italian Symphony. :o
Quote from: Mandryka on October 10, 2016, 12:49:47 PM
I think there is a problem to do with Schubert 9, and it has to do with the similarity at the level of rhythm and tempo from one movement to the next.
The piece is spacious but it cannot be treated like Bruckner because it is far more straightforward (among other things there is almost no polyphony or otherwise "dense writing").
It was probably inspired mostly by Beethoven's 7th and is similarly dominated by rhythm. But while the slow movement and the scherzo are more varied (contain more themes in proportion to their greater length) than Beethoven's the outer movements are "simplified", using very simple rhythmic figures even more obsessively (and in longer movements) than Beethoven. This can lead either to boredom or to the impression of a "stomping brutality" if played in a certain way (fast). I also often don't like the sound in some of the passages where the brass is sticking out in a Bruckner-like fashion. So it is probably mainly that I am not as big a fan of this symphony (except the 2nd movement) as many others are.
I listened to Munch's recording last night and this is pretty good. Quite similar to Szell's as far as I recall, fastish and repeat-free.
Quote from: vandermolen on October 11, 2016, 05:11:42 AM
My brother told me that he heard the worst ever performance on the radio the other day with Simon Rattle conducting the opening movement at the speed of Mendelssohn's Italian Symphony. :o
It's here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07xhvzd (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07xhvzd) - starting at about 55' with Rattle explaining that the first movement
ought to go at the speed of the Italian symphony. I can't see myself how a Brucknerian
Majestoso is the same as a Mendelssohnian
Allegro vivace, but perhaps the new edition of which he speaks changes Bruckner's marking. The Radio 3 introduction also puzzles me - surely it's the 5th whose structure is based on Beethoven 9 (old themes rejected at the start of the finale), not the 6th?
Quote from: Jo498 on October 09, 2016, 11:46:22 PM
I admittedly have never heard the Böhm (there is another one from Dresden, preferred by some) or Krips but partly because I didn't expect "traditional" version to meet my expectations. Besides, I don't really like Böhm in Mozart or Beethoven.
I don't like many of the late Bohm recordings, but this one from the 60's with the BPO seemed just right to me. (It's part of the complete Schubert bargain-priced set).
Quote from: DaveF on October 11, 2016, 10:34:21 AM
It's here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07xhvzd (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07xhvzd) - starting at about 55' with Rattle explaining that the first movement ought to go at the speed of the Italian symphony. I can't see myself how a Brucknerian Majestoso is the same as a Mendelssohnian Allegro vivace, but perhaps the new edition of which he speaks changes Bruckner's marking. The Radio 3 introduction also puzzles me - surely it's the 5th whose structure is based on Beethoven 9 (old themes rejected at the start of the finale), not the 6th?
In some ways, Bruckner regularly imitated Beethoven's Ninth with every new work. He also used the technique of presenting the old themes in the finale in the Third (most prominently in its first version).
Quote from: DaveF on October 11, 2016, 02:01:49 AM
I'm sure Klemperer and the New Philharmonia must have been among your 20, but that's the one for me
Indeed, that is still my favorite Bruckner 6th...and it won the silver in Monkey Greg's blind comparison.
Sarge
As far as Bruckner 6th goes a good complement to the classic Klemperer is this one:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71x1Zu3IE3L._SX522_.jpg)
The soundscape is darker with less forwardly balanced winds. Here the orchestral timbre built on Schubert and Beethoven really pays dividends in terms of contrast and beauty of tone.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 11, 2016, 10:44:09 AM
Indeed, that is still my favorite Bruckner 6th...and it won the silver in Monkey Greg's blind comparison.
Sarge
My dear friend, Sarge. It was Slowibidache/Munich that won. Klemperer was a close second.
Edit: Oops. Silver is correct, my eyes, and brain, deceived me.
There are many great Bruckner 6's out there, and Dohnanyi was one of the first I heard that really grabbed my interest into the work.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 11, 2016, 12:11:57 PM
There are many great Bruckner 6's out there, and Dohnanyi was one of the first I heard that really grabbed my interest into the work.
Bingo.
CVD's Bruckner sort of flew under the radar for the most part because in theory Cleveland is not Vienna or Berlin (then again nor is Vienna or Berlin Cleveland either)...
It just shows you can have so many different ways of playing Bruckner and make the music interesting.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 11, 2016, 12:07:16 PM
My dear friend, Sarge. It was Slowibidache/Munich that won. Klemperer was a close second.
Edit: Oops. Silver is correct, my eyes, and brain, deceived me.
Happens to the best of us ;D
Sarge
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on October 11, 2016, 12:14:42 PM
It just shows you can have so many different ways of playing Bruckner and make the music interesting.
100% true. Bruckner symphonies is in my top three of Composer/Genre combos that greatly benefit from listening to, and in my case owning, many recordings and interpretations.
Brucker uses some elements from Beethoven's 9th in many works. (Most frequently the "primeval fog" of the beginning and the ostinato in the "funeral march section" of the coda of the first movement)
But I'd say that the 6th is actually one of the few where he does not... because this one does not really start with "fog" and the theme is clearly articulated and rather "melodic" from the beginning, not build up from fanfare motives or so.
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on October 11, 2016, 10:56:41 AM
As far as Bruckner 6th goes a good complement to the classic Klemperer is this one:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71x1Zu3IE3L._SX522_.jpg)
The soundscape is darker with less forwardly balanced winds. Here the orchestral timbre built on Schubert and Beethoven really pays dividends in terms of contrast and beauty of tone.
(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/asheville/HomerDohnanyi.jpg)
Still searching for that one special Poème de l'amour et de la mer of Chausson. Tenor or soprano (I'm an equal opportunity employer). I won't mention what I think of three or four recordings I have, ranging from dismally disappointing to just acceptable, in my book. Whose do you like?
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 11, 2016, 12:07:16 PM
My dear friend, Sarge. It was Slowibidache/Munich that won. Klemperer was a close second.
Where do my boys CVD/Clevelanders finish in that poll?
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on October 12, 2016, 06:09:44 AM
Where do my boys CVD/Clevelanders finish in that poll?
Dohnányi/Cleveland was eliminated in the third round (after outlasting many famous names). Didn't make the finals.
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,23157.msg837855.html#msg837855
Sarge
Quote from: amw on October 09, 2016, 12:30:51 AM
Beethoven's Hammerklavier and Schumann's Carnaval, both of which I've heard almost no recordings of that are faithful to the score and successfully manage to convey the feeling of the work at the same time. In the case of the Hammerklavier, almost no one can convey the feeling of the work at all, regardless of how close they are to the score.
Schumann's Davidsbündlertänze, Chopin's Sonata No. 3, and Beethoven's Op. 130 with the substitute finale, all of which I haven't yet found recordings that ideally express the nature of the music.
As far as list making goes it's worth noting I listen to a lot more recordings online (or through technically illegal means) than I actually acquire.
Beethoven Op. 106:
- Badura-Skoda Astrée
- Rosen 1965
- Rosen 1980s
- Rosen 1997
- Schiff
- Goodyear
- Korstick
(Have heard: Schnabel, Brendel Philips and Vox, Leslie, Yudina, Gilels, Gulda Decca and Amadeo, Laul, Peter Serkin, Solomon, Pienaar, Guy Zig-zag, Annie Fischer, Pollini, Lévinas)
Schumann Carnaval:
- Le Sage
- Egorov
- Rosen Sony
- Rosen Nonesuch
- Uhlig
- Sokolov
- Schuch
(Have heard: Michelangeli DG, Ammara, Uchida, Bianconi, Larrocha, Pescia, Freire)
Davidsbündlertänze:
- Le Sage
- Anda DG
- Kempff EMI
- Rosen Sony
- Rosen Nonesuch
- Uhlig
- Schiff
(notably none of these were acquired specifically for the DBT but rather as part of complete sets/albums with other things on them)
(Have heard: Cooper Chandos and the earlier one?? Claves or something??, Bianconi, Ammara, Kempff DG, Casadesus, Perahia, Pollini Salzburg, Indjic)
Beethoven Op. 130
- Brentano Quartet
- Taneyev Quartet
- Belcea Quartet
- Busch Quartet
(with Op. 133 as finale: Hagen Quartet, Juilliard Quartet 1960s, Edding Quartet, Camerata Nordica)
(Have heard: Borodin Quartet Chandos, Budapest Quartet, Lindsays [who supply two different interpretations of the Cavatina rather than simply sticking the alternate finale straight after the Grosse Fuge, so at least clearly thought about the piece both ways]. Most people simply put the alternate finale after the Grosse Fuge if they play it at all, but I have reversed order to listen to the Takács, Alban Berg, Juilliard 60s, Endellion and Cypress Quartets.)
Chopin Sonata No. 3
- Pires
- Shelley
(Have heard: Argerich DG studio & EMI, Varjon, Moog, Weissenberg, Pollini, Andsnes, Arrau, Ashkenazy, Gilels, Lee, is there a Barenboim? I swear I've heard a Barenboim)
Are the vertical lists the ones you like best or have most recently listened to or what? I might be dense but the purpose/distinction to the other enumerations is not entirely clear to me.
The vertical lists are the ones I have. Legally own or whatever. The rest are the ones I know well enough to have remembered off the top of my head, but don't actually own copies of.
I don't have particular "favourites" but what I'm looking for I guess is
Op. 106: Schnabel in good sound and without mistakes
Carnaval: Imaginary interpretation by Martha Argerich (but with Schumann's pedal instructions followed faithfully)
Davidsbündlertänze: some combination of the best features of Kempff and Cooper I
Op. 130: Busch Quartet in good sound, with the Cavatina of the Lindsays
Chopin Sonata: Imaginary interpretation by Annie Fischer (with exposition repeat)
Yes Kempff in DBT is interesting. Do you know the live recording in Besançon, made in 1973? I don't know Imogen Cooper's recordings. Have you heard Hewitt Masselos, William Masselos. That's what you need William Masselos?
The colourful and percussive quality of the best of Annie Fischer's Schumann and Bartok could be good in Chopin I agree. She made a record of the second sonata but it is unlistenable. Try Pollini's first recording, from the Chopin competition in Varsavia in 1960. Actually, maybe not. Maybe Arrau is better for what you're after.
You could just play Op 106 like Schnabel without mistakes yourself couldn't you? After all it's just technique, you don't have to worry about interpretation. Use a computer to speed up the first movement if you have to.
Quote from: DaveF on October 11, 2016, 10:34:21 AM
It's here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07xhvzd (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07xhvzd) - starting at about 55' with Rattle explaining that the first movement ought to go at the speed of the Italian symphony. I can't see myself how a Brucknerian Majestoso is the same as a Mendelssohnian Allegro vivace, but perhaps the new edition of which he speaks changes Bruckner's marking. The Radio 3 introduction also puzzles me - surely it's the 5th whose structure is based on Beethoven 9 (old themes rejected at the start of the finale), not the 6th?
Many thanks for posting the link.
This thread is fitting, as I have just spent a lot of money as a result of increasing frustration with Mozart's string quintets. I have bought a bunch of complete sets of these works over the last few years, but none has been adequate. At last, I resolved to get "adequate (according to my tastes), at least" performances of all works, (almost) regardless of the cost. After comparing a lot of samples, I have ordered recordings by the Fine Arts Quartet (the 80s recordings for Lodia), Zukerman (with his own group, not the Tokyo Quartet), and a relatively recent but very rare complete set (you win a set of steak knives if you can guess which one) to round out the cycle.
Like many a collector, I am all a-tingle at the thought that once my order arrives I will finally be in some sense more "complete".
Quote from: Vaulted on October 20, 2016, 04:51:10 PM
This thread is fitting, as I have just spent a lot of money as a result of increasing frustration with Mozart's string quintets. I have bought a bunch of complete sets of these works over the last few years, but none has been adequate. At last, I resolved to get "adequate (according to my tastes), at least" performances of all works, (almost) regardless of the cost. After comparing a lot of samples, I have ordered recordings by the Fine Arts Quartet (the 80s recordings for Lodia), Zukerman (with his own group, not the Tokyo Quartet), and a relatively recent but very rare complete set (you win a set of steak knives if you can guess which one) to round out the cycle.
Like many a collector, I am all a-tingle at the thought that once my order arrives I will finally be in some sense more "complete".
Tried the kinda "classic" recommendation for those quintets?
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Q
I thought Grumiaux was the "default" recommendation. :D
Talich is one of the few I don't have, but, to be honest, from the samples I've heard I find their intonation too sour.
The first movement of K.614 is a hell of a test, and very few pass.
While I second Que's recommendation, I think this brand new set is also very good. The Auryns are a great quartet and Tacet's recording quality is (as always) second to none.
(http://www.tacet.de/cover/02170.jpg)
http://www.tacet.de/main/seite1.php?layout=katalog&language=en&filename=production.php&bestnr=02170
I have not heard it (being rather content with Smetana/Suk, Melos, Talich, Griller and a few single discs) but I have seen very positive comments about Sine Nomine/Oleg (although the 84 min discs might be a problem with older CD players?)
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Quote from: Vaulted on October 20, 2016, 04:51:10 PM
This thread is fitting, as I have just spent a lot of money as a result of increasing frustration with Mozart's string quintets. I have bought a bunch of complete sets of these works over the last few years, but none has been adequate. At last, I resolved to get "adequate (according to my tastes), at least" performances of all works, (almost) regardless of the cost. After comparing a lot of samples, I have ordered recordings by the Fine Arts Quartet (the 80s recordings for Lodia), Zukerman (with his own group, not the Tokyo Quartet), and a relatively recent but very rare complete set (you win a set of steak knives if you can guess which one) to round out the cycle.
Like many a collector, I am all a-tingle at the thought that once my order arrives I will finally be in some sense more "complete".
I think that it's probably a good idea for you to say what it is that attracted you to the extracts and what it is that disappointed you about the recordings. That way we may get an idea of what you're looking for.
Okay, I guess I will play my card now - this is the set I ordered:
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Except the cover will look more like this:
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