Arguing whether this or that composer or piece is the greatest are so futile and pointless. I'm sick and tired of them. Or whether this or that conductor, violinist, pianist, or singer or recording is the "greatest".
I don't mind people saying they prefer composer X to composer Y, or symphony X to symphony Y, or that they consider Caruso a greater tenor than Pavarotti, or prefer Bernstein's Mahler to conductor X's.
But I reject than notion that any one or any thing is THE greatest. Bach, Beethoven and Mozart are certainly among the greatest composers, but neither they nor any one else are the greatest.
The problem is that we tend to equate the most famous with the greatest. Jascha Heifetz is probably the most famous violinist of the 20th century, and Horowitz probably the most famous pianist, but they aren't the greatest. There are many other violinists and pianists who were and are equally great or even greater
Maybe these sentiments are just mine. I don't have a favorite composer, or favorite work by any particular composer; to me it's impossible to choose favorites. There's just so much music I love.
I do prefer some composers or some individual works to others, but I just can't pick a favorite of anything.
It's the same with other things for me. I don't have one favorite food, or beverage, or book, film, television program, painting, sculpture ,
poem, novel or short story. And I have never been able to understand people having a favorite color. I like all colors.
::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
Quote from: Superhorn on December 08, 2008, 07:27:45 AM
And I have never been able to understand people having a favorite color. I like all colors.
That was probably Sir Galahad's problem at the Bridge of Death . . . .
This is the greatest thread ever!
An internet forum may not be the best place for you, Superhorn.
Quote from: edward on December 08, 2008, 07:54:40 AM
This is the greatest thread ever!
I disagree Edward. Your choice shows you have absolutely no taste when it comes to discussing threads. I know that the "I have turned 1" is the greatest thread ever.
Quote from: Superhorn on December 08, 2008, 07:27:45 AM
Arguing whether this or that composer or piece is the greatest are so futile and pointless. I'm sick and tired of them. Or whether this or that conductor, violinist, pianist, or singer or recording is the "greatest".
I don't mind people saying they prefer composer X to composer Y, or symphony X to symphony Y, or that they consider Caruso a greater tenor than Pavarotti, or prefer Bernstein's Mahler to conductor X's.
But I reject than notion that any one or any thing is THE greatest. Bach, Beethoven and Mozart are certainly among the greatest composers, but neither they nor any one else are the greatest.
The problem is that we tend to equate the most famous with the greatest. Jascha Heifetz is probably the most famous violinist of the 20th century, and Horowitz probably the most famous pianist, but they aren't the greatest. There are many other violinists and pianists who were and are equally great or even greater
Maybe these sentiments are just mine. I don't have a favorite composer, or favorite work by any particular composer; to me it's impossible to choose favorites. There's just so much music I love.
I do prefer some composers or some individual works to others, but I just can't pick a favorite of anything.
It's the same with other things for me. I don't have one favorite food, or beverage, or book, film, television program, painting, sculpture ,
poem, novel or short story. And I have never been able to understand people having a favorite color. I like all colors.
::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
I agree with you but I really don't think that such threads are intended to be taken so seriously! Are they? ;D
Yeah it's weird isn't it . Enough of t h e s e t h r e a d s .
This is my favorite thread.
"Greatness" is one of those terms, which are absolutely relative.
(http://www.byhisgracealone.com/Ali_20the_20Greatest_small.jpg)
Well I love lists, and superlatives, mainly because everyone's opinion is different. If we take lists and polls with a grain of salt its much more fun.
Quote from: Superhorn on December 08, 2008, 07:27:45 AM
The problem is that we tend to equate the most famous with the greatest. Jascha Heifetz is probably the most famous violinist of the 20th century, and Horowitz probably the most famous pianist, but they aren't the greatest. There are many other violinists and pianists who were and are equally great or even greater
You are doing the same thing you're railing against - making pronouncements about who's the best or among the best.
Let's clear up one thing. This board is just a hobby, and the offering of opinions about the best recording or pianist does nothing to disturb the Planet. I'm confident that the type of threads you don't care for will continue being prevalent indefinitely. What will you do about it?
Salt is the greatest thing ever. Aside from Mohammed Ali, of course. And this thread. And Beethoven. And Hilary Hahn.
Actually, come to think of it, salt's really not that great.
(Never mind.)
Greatest : highest in quality
Favourite: something regarded with special favour or liking
I think the real reason why some people have a problem with "greatest" is that by its very definition there is only one correct answer, and that if this answer is to be determined, two people having different views must argue (or discuss) with one view prevailing - which of course never happens!
Favourite, on the other hand, is an individual interpretation. You may call me an idiot for having a particular favourite, but there's nothing you can do to change my mind, and I'm certainly not wrong.
Therefore "favourite" is a "safer" alternative if you want to start a thread!
Quote from: Sef on December 08, 2008, 03:50:49 PM
Greatest : highest in quality
Favourite: something regarded with special favour or liking
I think the real reason why some people have a problem with "greatest" is that by its very definition there is only one correct answer, and that if this answer is to be determined, two people having different views must argue (or discuss) with one view prevailing - which of course never happens!
Favourite, on the other hand, is an individual interpretation. You may call me an idiot for having a particular favourite, but there's nothing you can do to change my mind, and I'm certainly not wrong.
Therefore "favourite" is a "safer" alternative if you want to start a thread!
Favorite: The one you like above others.
Greatest: Highest in quality.
??? >:D Q: Which Quality?
A: The one you like above others.
I love threads and polls with "What are your favorites?" They're fun, and for newbies like myself, are a great way to be introduced to certain works.
There really can't be any arguments over your favorites, can there? Only with your own self. :P
Quote from: Superhorn on December 08, 2008, 07:27:45 AM
Arguing whether this or that composer or piece is the greatest are so futile and pointless. I'm sick and tired of them. Or whether this or that conductor, violinist, pianist, or singer or recording is the "greatest".
I don't mind people saying they prefer composer X to composer Y, or symphony X to symphony Y, or that they consider Caruso a greater tenor than Pavarotti, or prefer Bernstein's Mahler to conductor X's.
But I reject than notion that any one or any thing is THE greatest. Bach, Beethoven and Mozart are certainly among the greatest composers, but neither they nor any one else are the greatest.
The problem is that we tend to equate the most famous with the greatest. Jascha Heifetz is probably the most famous violinist of the 20th century, and Horowitz probably the most famous pianist, but they aren't the greatest. There are many other violinists and pianists who were and are equally great or even greater
Maybe these sentiments are just mine. I don't have a favorite composer, or favorite work by any particular composer; to me it's impossible to choose favorites. There's just so much music I love.
I do prefer some composers or some individual works to others, but I just can't pick a favorite of anything.
It's the same with other things for me. I don't have one favorite food, or beverage, or book, film, television program, painting, sculpture ,
poem, novel or short story. And I have never been able to understand people having a favorite color. I like all colors.
::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
mmk.
Many people find it fun to make lists. I participate in some, but not others. For example, I could list some current favourite composers (with difficulty), but I am unable to state which composers I consider objectively greatest. Some people can do that, though, which I guess is fine too :D
Quote from: Lethe on December 09, 2008, 03:44:33 AM
Many people find it fun to make lists.
I know
I did. (http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/2008/12/ridiculous-list.html)
When I mentioned Heifetz and Horowitz, I wasn't amking invidious comparisons with any other violinists and pianists.
All I meant to say was that there are and have been many other violinists and pianists who were also very great, and not necessarily inferior to these two legendary musicians.
Take the late, great Luciano Pavarotti. He has often been subject to comparison with Placido Domingo, who is still very much alive and kicking.
I admire both tenors greatly, and don't think that one is "better" or "greater" than the other. Domingo is probably the better musician of the two, and much more versatile, also being a conductor and administrator. And he can sing in a variety of languages,and has a much larger repertoire. But both are very great singers, and you don't have to admire one and reject the other.
It's the same with so many other great composers, conductors, singers, instrumentalists and orchestras.
I don't mind people making lists of their favorites etc, I don't want to stop people from doing this on anyother classical music forum. Go ahead, by all means and do this.
But I stand by my comments.
I'm fed up with people being fed up.
Quote from: mn dave on December 09, 2008, 08:45:44 AM
I'm fed up with people being fed up.
Right - a little of the Joel Osteen attitude is a good thing.
Quote from: mn dave on December 09, 2008, 08:45:44 AM
I'm fed up with people being fed up.
We don't take too kindly to people who don't take too kindly around here.
Quote from: Lethe on December 09, 2008, 03:44:33 AM
Many people find it fun to make lists.
It's interesting to read them, and read the responses.
Quote from: Lethe on December 09, 2008, 03:44:33 AM
For example, I could list some current favourite composers (with difficulty), but I am unable to state which composers I consider objectively greatest.
Everyone has their own reasons for agreeing that Beethoven is the greatest (example). Since the reasons don't seem to be dispositive, it's the fact of agreement that matters most. The objective factors are given different weights by individuals, who can't apply quantitative measures for their respective importance. Usually I'm not even aware of these factors, or where one leaves off and another begins. When are you responding to melody, or melody and harmony together, or an appreciation of structure? I think it's too complicated even for experts to unravel. You would need to understand how the mind works at a level of detail far beyond what's possible. What turns such a complex process into a preference?
I can't even figure out how zillions of electrochemical signals can make me feel hungry. So it's not surprising that even smart people can't say why so many agree about the greatness of Beethoven.
Well, if you want to know what's good or not, it's very obvious. All you need to do is be a professional musician for your whole life, and have a couple hundred recordings of the same work, and then you can THE expert on which recordings is best because you are most experienced. Then no one else can voice their opinion unless it's in agreement with yours, because it'll just be wrong.
;)
Yes — but as soon as someone starts talking about a piece you don't know (i.e. anything outside of the core repertoire), just berate them as clueless. ;D ::)
OK! >:D
I generally do not pay attention to the Greatest or Favorites threads. I don't see much points in them. However, I can see one good use for some posters, especially beginner and people with a narrow range or a smaller collection who wants to expand. The Greatest and Favorites threads can offer them a good reference for which work they may want to explore.
Quote from: drogulus on December 10, 2008, 02:11:22 PM
Everyone has their own reasons for agreeing that Beethoven is the greatest (example).
I should say, instead, that
of those who do agree that
Beethoven is the greatest, each has his own reasons ;)
I am totally in agreement. I am the greatest, and thats that! ;D
The Steamroller hath spoken! :D
I think we can all agree that Elliott Carter is the oldest living composer.
(But is Åke Parmerud the tallest? Let's fight about it!)
Bet Segerstam has the biggest beard ;D
Quote from: Dundonnell on December 11, 2008, 11:37:24 AM
Bet Segerstam has the biggest beard ;D
Whoo, something I can
argue about ;D I see your Segerstam, and I raise you a Koechlin!
(http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/807/10422004f9fc4f86jx0.jpg)
Brahms and Rimsky
wish they were that big...
Quote from: G$ on December 10, 2008, 05:52:54 PM
Well, if you want to know what's good or not, it's very obvious. All you need to do is be a professional musician for your whole life, and have a couple hundred recordings of the same work, and then you can THE expert on which recordings is best because you are most experienced. Then no one else can voice their opinion unless it's in agreement with yours, because it'll just be wrong.
;)
That's the problem,
G$. My way of dealing with it is to respect and try to learn from the experience of others without feeling forced to share their conclusions. The business of building a musical taste involves using what you can learn about the possibilities of future experience to guide you. A good strategy is to explore taste models that differ so much from your current version that you have a hard time understanding why this music is considered interesting. If you do that you may just find a way to
make it interesting.
So, it comes to seem lazy to just like what you like and leave it at that. Most of us here really do want to explore new music and not just sit around listening to our personal Top 40 or an approved Great List. It's a good thing when an idiosyncratic list pops up with a few odd names and omitting a few usual suspects.
Quote from: drogulus on December 11, 2008, 12:46:43 PM
My way of dealing with it is to respect and try to learn from the experience of others without feeling forced to share their conclusions. The business of building a musical taste involves using what you can learn about the possibilities of future experience to guide you. A good strategy is to explore taste models that differ so much from your current version that you have a hard time understanding why this music is considered interesting. If you do that you may just find a way to make it interesting.
So, it comes to seem lazy to just like what you like and leave it at that. Most of us here really do want to explore new music and not just sit around listening to our personal Top 40 or an approved Great List.
Hear, hear.
Quote from: Lethe on December 11, 2008, 12:42:42 PM
Brahms and Rimsky wish they were that big...
Just mix them and you get a composer like:
(http://www.dailywaste.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/beard.jpg)
Birds could get lost in there.
Quote from: Christo on December 11, 2008, 10:16:15 PM
Just mix them and you get a composer like:
(http://www.dailywaste.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/beard.jpg)
is that God?
No, it's Ubloobideega.
Quote from: Lethe on December 11, 2008, 12:42:42 PM
Whoo, something I can argue about ;D I see your Segerstam, and I raise you a Koechlin!
(http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/807/10422004f9fc4f86jx0.jpg)
Brahms and Rimsky wish they were that big...
Segerstam
has the biggest beard. Koechlin's isn't so long
now ;D
Quote from: karlhenning on December 13, 2008, 04:26:46 AM
No, it's Ubloobideega.
I thought so. He can change form, after all......