Still have not learned to enjoy this composer's music. I believe Hornteacher is also in this same boat....maybe others wallowing out there as well, but afraid to admit it. We need your guidance in beginning to appreciate this composer's efforts. Where do we start? Facilitator positions now open.
There is an exact same post made by myself in the same section. You could get some useful information there...and I guess you will just have to start listening to get familiar with the composer. Do you have any recordings of Mahler? If you don't, you can drop me a PM and I'll give you some links. (The links are provided by MahlerTitan btw).
I've been told to start with the #1 and #4 symphonies as a beginner.
Good luck with Mahler!
Quote from: Bogey on May 22, 2007, 04:34:16 PM
Still have not learned to enjoy this composer's music. I believe Hornteacher is also in this same boat....maybe others wallowing out there as well, but afraid to admit it. We need your guidance in beginning to appreciate this composer's efforts. Where do we start? Facilitator positions now open.
Can you tell us what you have already listened to? (which symphonies and recordings)
Quote from: Mahler Symphony on May 22, 2007, 05:04:40 PM
Can you tell us what you have already listened to? (which symphonies and recordings)
I've only heard two Mahler pieces and it was a while back. Titan Symphony was Abbado (which was good) and Symphony 2 was the other piece (can't remember the ensemble). I just remember it being so LONG. Mahler is on my list of composers to get to know better. I'm trying to get through RV Williams first though.
Quote from: Bonehelm on May 22, 2007, 05:01:58 PM
There is an exact same post made by myself in the same section. You could get some useful information there...and I guess you will just have to start listening to get familiar with the composer. Do you have any recordings of Mahler? If you don't, you can drop me a PM and I'll give you some links. (The links are provided by MahlerTitan btw).
I've been told to start with the #1 and #4 symphonies as a beginner.
Good luck with Mahler!
Thanks!
Quote from: Mahler Symphony on May 22, 2007, 05:04:40 PM
Can you tell us what you have already listened to? (which symphonies and recordings)
Here is what I have on the shelf:
Symph. No. 1 Urbank/Prague Festival Orchestra
Symph. No. 1 Slatking/St. Louis
Symph. Nos. 1 and 2 Bernstein/NYPO
Symph. No. 2 Slatking/St. Louis
Symph. No. 3 Bernstein/NYPO
Symph. No. 4 Tennstedt/LPO
Symph. No. 7 Bernstein/NYPO
Symph. No. 9 HvK/BPO-Live
Mahler is best experienced live. :D Failing that, though, it's best to schedule a block of time and just listen. Unhook the phones, hire a babysitter or something, and enter his world. You'll be surprised how the time flies. ;D
Quote from: jochanaan on May 22, 2007, 05:37:01 PM
Mahler is best experienced live. :D Failing that, though, it's best to schedule a block of time and just listen. Unhook the phones, hire a babysitter or something, and enter his world. You'll be surprised how the time flies. ;D
The problem is, most local ensembles don't quite have enough force or training to give a good Mahler performance...if you wait for major orchestras to travel to your city, that could take some time.
My local orchestra has like what...85 players? :(
QuoteStill have not learned to enjoy this composer's music.
Do you seriously expect a verbal explanation to supply any enjoyment or appreciation?? If you don't like the 'sound' of any specific composer then whatever he tried to convey in the music is immaterial. Aside from that, even if appreciated or much admired, it's done according to the inner and private responses of the listener which are seldom alike as these forums consistently prove.
You have to experiment on your own and hope for a degree of empathy with the sound. There's no other way around it!
Quote from: Bonehelm on May 22, 2007, 05:41:57 PM
My local orchestra has like what...85 players? :(
That's enough to do justice to the Fourth and even the First, if the players are good enough. I know; I played both those with my orchestra, which has even fewer players. (Well, we did have to import three extra horn players for the First.)
Quote from: Bogey on May 22, 2007, 04:34:16 PM
Still have not learned to enjoy this composer's music. I believe Hornteacher is also in this same boat....maybe others wallowing out there as well, but afraid to admit it. We need your guidance in beginning to appreciate this composer's efforts. Where do we start? Facilitator positions now open.
#1 :)
nothing wrong so far, but i am a bit alarmed that you haven't heard the fifth.
i think it helps if you learn a little about mahler first(if you haven't already), here,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustav_Mahler
Quote from: Bogey on May 22, 2007, 05:30:17 PM
Thanks!
Here is what I have on the shelf:
Symph. No. 1 Urbank/Prague Festival Orchestra
Symph. No. 1 Slatking/St. Louis
Symph. Nos. 1 and 2 Bernstein/NYPO
Symph. No. 2 Slatking/St. Louis
Symph. No. 3 Bernstein/NYPO
Symph. No. 4 Tennstedt/LPO
Symph. No. 7 Bernstein/NYPO
Symph. No. 9 HvK/BPO-Live
Haven't heard Urbank, but all the others I have and they are excellent so you should be able to enjoy Mahle from them. One thing I find helpful is that do not try to compare Mahler with anybody else because there is nobody like him, and forget about form and structure and just listen to his sound world. Listen to his orchestration and astonishing use of percussion and weird choise of solo instruments (basses in #2, trombone and bass drum in #3, baritone horn in #7, etc.).
Quote from: jochanaan on May 22, 2007, 05:37:01 PM
Mahler is best experienced live. :D Failing that, though, it's best to schedule a block of time and just listen. Unhook the phones, hire a babysitter or something, and enter his world. You'll be surprised how the time flies. ;D
I'm fortunate that I live in a city that has a good Mahler orchestra (the Utah Symphony), and they make a point of performing at least one of his major works each season. This year, it was the Seventh Symphony - an incredible performance of a work that is, unfortunately, often misunderstood. Evidently, the audience "got" it; the performance received enthusiastic applause and an immediate standing ovation.
Yes, it is amazing how time flies when I do just what Jochanaan suggests; even a lengthy piece such as the Third Symphony never gets boring for me when I drop everything else and just listen. This is the best way to connect with Mahler's music. I would recommend trying this with one of the easier pieces (the First or the Fourth, as others have recommended). If you happen to make the connection (and enjoy the experience), then you will likely become curious and will move on to the other symphonies and song cycles, and you might even become interested in how the works connect to each other. If not, then perhaps Mahler isn't to your taste. I know people who otherwise love classical music of many time periods but have not been able to connect with Mahler. Often, the problem is the massive scale of the music and the orchestral forces; a common criticism is that Mahler has pushed the envelope too far. The same criticisms can potentially apply to Wagner. I, personally, don't think Mahler (or Wagner, for that matter) has gone too far, but he has perhaps pushed things right to the edge. I cannot imagine orchestral or choral music being a lot more massive than Mahler's without becoming a muddled mess, except perhaps in the hands of a great genius.
I have found Mahler to be worth the effort of serious listening. If you give his music a good try, you might also find it worth the effort. There is only one way to find out...
Heather
Quote from: jochanaan on May 22, 2007, 05:37:01 PM
Mahler is best experienced live. :D Failing that, though, it's best to schedule a block of time and just listen. Unhook the phones, hire a babysitter or something, and enter his world. You'll be surprised how the time flies. ;D
Excellent point here. I tried earlier to listen to Symphony No. 1 while cleaning up after dinner and while the kiddos were playing.....no dice. :)
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on May 22, 2007, 06:17:35 PM
Haven't heard Urbank, but all the others I have and they are excellent so you should be able to enjoy Mahle from them. One thing I find helpful is that do not try to compare Mahler with anybody else because there is nobody like him, and forget about form and structure and just listen to his sound world. Listen to his orchestration and astonishing use of percussion and weird choise of solo instruments (basses in #2, trombone and bass drum in #3, baritone horn in #7, etc.).
You probably are not missing much, as
even I find it a weak perfomance beside Lenny and Slatkin. Nice insights....we'll do.
Quote from: MahlerTitan on May 22, 2007, 06:00:46 PM
nothing wrong so far, but i am a bit alarmed that you haven't heard the fifth.
i think it helps if you learn a little about mahler first(if you haven't already), here,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustav_Mahler
I will look out for the 5th. Without strarting a new thread, will Lenny do here?
Quote from: Heather Harrison on May 22, 2007, 06:55:23 PM
I'm fortunate that I live in a city that has a good Mahler orchestra (the Utah Symphony), and they make a point of performing at least one of his major works each season. This year, it was the Seventh Symphony - an incredible performance of a work that is, unfortunately, often misunderstood. Evidently, the audience "got" it; the performance received enthusiastic applause and an immediate standing ovation.
Yes, it is amazing how time flies when I do just what Jochanaan suggests; even a lengthy piece such as the Third Symphony never gets boring for me when I drop everything else and just listen. This is the best way to connect with Mahler's music. I would recommend trying this with one of the easier pieces (the First or the Fourth, as others have recommended). If you happen to make the connection (and enjoy the experience), then you will likely become curious and will move on to the other symphonies and song cycles, and you might even become interested in how the works connect to each other. If not, then perhaps Mahler isn't to your taste. I know people who otherwise love classical music of many time periods but have not been able to connect with Mahler. Often, the problem is the massive scale of the music and the orchestral forces; a common criticism is that Mahler has pushed the envelope too far. The same criticisms can potentially apply to Wagner. I, personally, don't think Mahler (or Wagner, for that matter) has gone too far, but he has perhaps pushed things right to the edge. I cannot imagine orchestral or choral music being a lot more massive than Mahler's without becoming a muddled mess, except perhaps in the hands of a great genius.
I have found Mahler to be worth the effort of serious listening. If you give his music a good try, you might also find it worth the effort. There is only one way to find out...
Heather
The 3rd it is....possibly this weekend so I can give it my FULL attention.
Quote from: max on May 22, 2007, 05:44:02 PM
Do you seriously expect a verbal explanation to supply any enjoyment or appreciation?? If you don't like the 'sound' of any specific composer then whatever he tried to convey in the music is immaterial. Aside from that, even if appreciated or much admired, it's done according to the inner and private responses of the listener which are seldom alike as these forums consistently prove.
You have to experiment on your own and hope for a degree of empathy with the sound. There's no other way around it!
I do not disagree with your route here....for some. However, for me, I have found in a number of cases (Bach and Sibelius to name two) that if I keep coming back to a composer that seems to be "just a bit out of reach", then eventually something clicks. Sometimes it is a simple story about the music, or an insight of what to listen for. Sometimes, it is just listening to a piece at the right time, while in the proper mood, that brings a composer to the forfront of my listening world (this happened with Brahm's for me). So, any insight or direction in listening I am open to, as it may cause that first crack that allows me to eventually enjoy a composer at a higher level and much, (I will not say all) of what they have to offer. But your point is well taken at this end and appreciated.
Quote from: Bogey on May 22, 2007, 07:14:43 PM
I will look out for the 5th. Without strarting a new thread, will Lenny do here?
The fifth is a tricky one, i have many recordings, and the only one that i find is good is Solti/Chicago.
Quote from: Bogey on May 22, 2007, 07:14:43 PM
I will look out for the 5th. Without strarting a new thread, will Lenny do here?
I don't think so. I've never really liked Bernstein's recording with the Vienna Philharmonic, and his performance with the New York Philharmonic has to be one of the worst recordings of this symphony.
Here's my personal recommendation :
http://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symphony-No5-Gustav/dp/B00000DHJ1/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3/103-1478130-9322207?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1179894464&sr=8-3
Sometimes it takes only a single movement or even part of a movement to cause a breakthrough into the sound world of a composer. In the case of Mahler, I would approach his symphonies with some of his beautiful and sublime slow movements especially that of the 4th, 5th and 6th symphonies. That of the 6th ends in what can only be described as an apotheosis worthy of any composer who ever lived.
Once the tension of mystery overwhelms indifference your ready for further exploration of the composer's Weltanschauung and Mahler definitely had one!
Quote from: Bogey on May 22, 2007, 04:34:16 PM
Still have not learned to enjoy this composer's music. I believe Hornteacher is also in this same boat....maybe others wallowing out there as well, but afraid to admit it. We need your guidance in beginning to appreciate this composer's efforts. Where do we start? Facilitator positions now open.
Bill, the 4th Symphony is your best "beginning" ticket, in my opinion. From there, try to set aside a half hour out of your day to lay in a non-distracting room and give the 1st movement of the 9th an attentive listen. Try that approach with each movement of the 5th as well, and then attempt to tackle the much more complex stuff like the rest of the 9th and 8th.
With Mahler, it's more like his music "grows on you" in a very profound (ultimately deep) manner, rather than just "clicking" like the works of other compsosers.
Quote from: Bogey on May 22, 2007, 07:14:43 PM
I will look out for the 5th. Without strarting a new thread, will Lenny do here?
I don't know about the Sony version, but I found his DG recording most acceptable. He doesn't quite make the finale work, but very few conductors do.
Quote from: max on May 23, 2007, 12:12:50 AM
Sometimes it takes only a single movement or even part of a movement to cause a breakthrough into the sound world of a composer. In the case of Mahler, I would approach his symphonies with some of his beautiful and sublime slow movements especially that of the 4th, 5th and 6th symphonies. That of the 6th ends in what can only be described as an apotheosis worthy of any composer who ever lived.
Once the tension of mystery overwhelms indifference your ready for further exploration of the composer's Weltanschauung and Mahler definitely had one!
This is an excellent idea!
Quote from: Bogey on May 22, 2007, 04:34:16 PM
Still have not learned to enjoy this composer's music. I believe Hornteacher is also in this same boat....maybe others wallowing out there as well, but afraid to admit it. We need your guidance in beginning to appreciate this composer's efforts. Where do we start? Facilitator positions now open.
1. Start with what you have. Sounds like you have a number of Mahler 1's, so that seems like as logical place to begin as any. This is how I approach any cycle of a composer's output, as I feel that I better understand and appreciate their work this way. Listening to Beethoven's 9th is a very different thing after getting to know 1-8.
2. Like others said, give the entire work your full attention at least the first few times listening to it. Just let is soak in, don't try to get it. I've found that Mahler is one of those composers who needs (and deserves) the audiences full attention.
3. If it doesn't grab you, try a recommended recording such as Kubelik on DG. (http://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symphony-Lieder-Kubelik-Fischer-Dieskau/dp/B000001GX9/ref=pd_bbs_2/104-2949723-2736732?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1179920041&sr=8-2)
4. Repeat #2.
5. Still not connecting? Move to Symphony 2 using the same process. If you really haven't connected by the first four symphonies, perhaps:
a. you don't like Mahler, or
b. it just isn't the right time.
:)
I'm going to suggest the opposite approach as to what has been suggested so far. Divide and conquer.
Only concentrate on listening attentively, repeatedly to one movement, then repeat for the next movement... after you have the thematic narrative understood movement per movement, then you are ready to listen to the symphony as a whole. Now you will not be trying to understand what's happening internal to each movement, but instead find the connections between the movements, decide for yourself if the symphony is cyclic or not. And nevertheless, you can appreciate the symphony as a whole much easier that way. The natural attention span of most people is less than the duration of an average Mahler symphony which is why I advocate divide and conquer.
Besides, in most works, including Mahler, the attempt at a cyclic work is usually superficial-- simply a theme repeated through movements. To make up a statistic that I have no way of knowing is right or not ;)-- 95% of the time you don't need to tackle each movement of a work in relation to the others.
Michael Tilson Thomas conducting the San Francisco Symphony Orchestra sounds great. That's why the cds are so expensive, but they can be stolen.
They're the best sounding recordings I've heard. What's with them?
Another great sounding recording is the Philadelphia Orchestra conducted by Christoph Eschenbach (specifically the 6th symphony). These cds are also gold on the back instead of silver.
What are some other clear sounding, golden cds?
Quote from: EmpNapoleon on May 23, 2007, 09:51:39 AM
Michael Tilson Thomas conducting the San Francisco Symphony Orchestra sounds great. That's why the cds are so expensive, but they can be stolen.
They're the best sounding recordings I've heard. What's with them?
Another great sounding recording is the Philadelphia Orchestra conducted by Christoph Eschenbach (specifically the 6th symphony). These cds are also gold on the back instead of silver.
What are some other clear sounding, golden cds?
What you're seeing with those CDs is that they are Super Audio CD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Audio_CD) rather than standard compact disks. Which is why the cost is high. Tilson Thomas and the SFSO can also be found on eMusic (http://www.emusic.com/artist/San-Francisco-Symphony-Michael-Tilson-Thomas-MP3-Download/11686875.html) if you want to get their cycle for very low price. Granted, you'll get high quality variable bit-rate MP3 versus a nice, shiney SACD hybrid CD, but you'll also pay about a dollar a symphony rather than 20+. :)
As for appreciating Mahler, another poster in a similar thread from not long ago suggested an introduction to Mahler might be better served by engagement with his song cycles as there are thematic origins in them for his symphonies. I am not refined enough to uncover those particular nuances, but I do know that EMI's
Great Recordings of the Century series has at least two fantastic collections of Mahler's lieder the first featuring Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau with Szell conducting (http://www.amazon.com/Knaben-Wunderhorn-Dietrich-Fischer-Dieskau/dp/B00004R8TP/ref=sr_1_2/102-3816405-9248915?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1179947391&sr=1-2) and the other featuring Janet Baker with Barbirolli conducting (http://www.amazon.com/Great-Recordings-Century-Mahler-Barbirolli/dp/B00000IOBY/ref=sr_1_1/102-3816405-9248915?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1179947434&sr=1-1). Both are wonderful to hear and might help expand your appreciation of the composer.
Where can I find more Super Audio classical cds?
Quote from: EmpNapoleon on May 23, 2007, 11:50:33 AM
Where can I find more Super Audio classical cds?
Both CD Universe (http://www.cduniverse.com/browsecat.asp?cat=2703&cat2=56) and Amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_nr_n_5/102-3816405-9248915?ie=UTF8&rs=301668&keywords=SACD&rh=n%3A301668%2Ck%3ASACD%2Cn%3A85) allow you to browse a list of SA-CDs and Hybrid SA-CDs (these have a normal CD layer that plays on standard CD players and another that plays on SACD Players)... and I'm sure the same is true of other online retail sites.
The Super Audio CD Reference at sa-cd.net (http://www.sa-cd.net/) is another good resource for SACD... There are other good resources as well for both SACD and DVD-Audio releases. A few Google searches will uncover handfuls. If you're looking to upgrade a component system, consider adding a SACD/DVD-A combo unit so you can take advantage of multiple formats (including standard audio CD).
Bill, the two Mahler symphonies to which I keep returning are his Fourth and Seventh. I like his First, but it doesn't grab me like these other two. I listened to them repeatedly for a while, and that constant familiarisation really helped me to grasp at least some of what was going on in Mahler's music. I recently had a breakthrough with his Fifth, too; and while it's not likely to become a firm favourite anytime soon, it did finally get through to me through this process of repeated listening. David's suggestion, incidentally, about taking each movement one at a time is what I did at first. It worked for me, so give it a try. :)
Quote from: Mark on May 23, 2007, 01:29:10 PM
I recently had a breakthrough with his Fifth, too
It will keep getting better,
Mark, trust me 0:)!
I think it's very important with Mahler (particularly with the late symphonies) that you have a good idea what was going on in his life at the time, because his works are always so incredibly personal that to take them without that can leave you a bit detached from the music.
Also, don't worry, his music is not easy: I think it's best to listen with a score handy, and just see how much he can do with tiny ideas, and to have a reference point.
I'll also throw in a vote for the fourth symphony as a starting point. It's almost classical.
Quote from: Bogey on May 22, 2007, 07:15:54 PM
The 3rd it is....possibly this weekend so I can give it my FULL attention.
If you decide to tackle the lengthy Third, you might find the programmatic aspects of it interesting; it is probably explained in the liner notes. Also, there exists a DVD of a documentary about this symphony. Although the symphony is quite long, it is one of Mahler's more accessible works; it even has a few catchy tunes that might stick in your head.
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51JF9HQ1NHL._AA240_.jpg)
This is the sort of symphony that can inspire a documentary film; I can't think of many others like it. If you find the Third interesting, I would recommend this DVD. It does a good job of telling the story of this symphony.
Heather
The 5th, 2nd, and 3rd are my trio of favorites so far, but actually it's really hard to pick because I enjoy them all.
The first 5th I heard was Levi/Atlanta and though I liked the symphony a lot of it glossed right by me. I definitely agree with the divide and conquer approach, I must've listened to the 1st and 2nd mvmts maybe four times each before I even got to the Scherzo!
This symphony really opened up to me after I had put it away for a while to focus on others and then stumbled upon a live recording of Eschenbach w/ Houston on tour in Vienna, and for me, it's a desert island pick now. It's at Operashare, or you can PM me for links. I've beat the drum for it before in another thread, so I won't here. :) But his approach really makes sense to me, brings out a lot of detail, and when I listen to it, the world seems to disappear.
Bertini I also like in the 5th, and I have several new ones in the to-listen-to pile I'm looking forward to, including Boulez and Barbirolli.
I was in the same boat no less than 6 months ago, so I'm always willing to help. It's been like a kid turned loose in a candy store for me!
I now have the scores to a few of the symphonies and they are fascinating to study. I like to go through and translate out his German instructions before, so when I listen I'll understand his directions. They are often VERY specific. Sometimes it's like Mahler speaking from beyond the grave! He had an absolutely clear picture of how he wanted his music to sound.
I'm not sure that Dover's glossary entirely gets the gist of the German-to-English translation, I feel some words in German have an extra flavor he was getting at that is almost impossible to translate. I mean to start another thread about reading his scores.
But these are two directions he uses a lot - Nicht eilen! (Don't hurry) and Sehr gemessen (Very measured)
Quote from: Greta on May 24, 2007, 06:14:04 PM
I now have the scores to a few of the symphonies and they are fascinating to study.
Yes they are ....... fascinating, almost monumentally so .........
Quote from: Greta on May 24, 2007, 06:14:04 PM
Bertini I also like in the 5th, and I have several new ones in the to-listen-to pile I'm looking forward to, including Boulez and Barbirolli.
Boulez's Mahler is for me an unexpected treat. One would expect (at least I had expected) to find a lifeless and useless performance from Boulez (based on the word of others), but in fact there is a new world of proportion and balance. I've heard his recordings of Mahler 2, 3, 5, and 6 - they are all excellent.
I started on my path through Mahler with Symphonie Nr.5 (Chicago/Solti). I put it on while I was doing homework, and eventually I could listen to movements in concentration, and then the whole thing in concentration.
To follow scores is some good advice. If it doesn't allow you to appreciate the music, then at least you will brush up on your German, or more likely learn some sort of music theory.
Quote from: Christopher RA on May 24, 2007, 06:28:02 PM.
To follow scores is some good advice. If it doesn't allow you to appreciate the music, then at least you will brush up on your German, or more likely learn some sort of music theory.
Only one slight problem here....I do not read music. Not a lick. :)
Quote from: Bogey on May 24, 2007, 06:36:13 PM
Only one slight problem here....I do not read music. Not a lick. :)
Was any of the other advice of use to you, Bill?
Quote from: George on May 24, 2007, 06:43:19 PM
Was any of the other advice of use to you, Bill?
Absolutely....this thread is considered "gold" to me at this point with all the insightful feedback. My main goal now is to set aside a bit of time this weekend for uninterrupted listening. Until I do at least this, then I feel I have not approached this music appropriately. :)
Quote from: Bogey on May 24, 2007, 07:31:00 PM
Absolutely....this thread is considered "gold" to me at this point with all the insightful feedback. My main goal now is to set aside a bit of time this weekend for uninterrupted listening. Until I do at least this, then I feel I have not approached this music appropriately. :)
Excellent. Keep us posted. :)
When? How? Where?
I have just started discovering him.
I started by listening to his sixth (Kubelik). Any other suggestions on how to approach this guy?
Thanks
What's the problem. He is such an easy composer to listen to.
Pffft. Mahler-schmahler. ;D
Try the 9th next. If it leaves you with an unquenchable desire to slit your wrists, then welcome to the club. You're hooked for life. I suggest Baribolli's 9th. And an Exacto.
- gmstudio, member: He-man Mahler Wrist-Kutter Klub (joined 1989)
bassio, if you've "got" the Sixth (especially by Kubelik, whose Mahler I have never heard but is said to be among the greatest), then just about anywhere you could go is probably fine. In fact, I'd recommend trying the joyous Eighth next for a complete contrast. :D Good recordings include the classic one by Jascha Horenstein and the London Symphony and one slightly later by Leonard Bernstein and the same orchestra.
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on December 29, 2007, 04:50:17 PM
What's the problem. He is such an easy composer to listen to.
I agree. Mahler's symphonic language should be very appealing, if you liked the 6th, then check out the 1st and 5th as well. I can't imagine that there is a mahler symphony that is "hard" to get into.
Quote from: Gustav on December 30, 2007, 12:09:02 AM
I agree. Mahler's symphonic language should be very appealing, if you liked the 6th, then check out the 1st and 5th as well. I can't imagine that there is a mahler symphony that is "hard" to get into.
Well his 8th could be hard. I never heard of any symphony that has a 55 minute movement.
Quote from: 復活交響曲 on December 30, 2007, 12:20:32 AM
Well his 8th could be hard. I never heard of any symphony that has a 55 minute movement.
Petterson 9 is in one 70-minute movement.......
Quote from: erato on December 30, 2007, 01:05:45 AM
Petterson 9 is in one 70-minute movement.......
But is that in standard repertoire? I don't think so.
Quote from: bassio on December 29, 2007, 04:33:09 PM
When? How? Where?
I have just started discovering him.
I started by listening to his sixth (Kubelik). Any other suggestions on how to approach this guy?
Thanks
I'm having a go. Tried the 7th, listened to it throughout twice but it doesn't make sense yet. My initial reaction is excess. He didn't need such a massive orchestra and could have pruned the first movement. The coda takes too long and might have been better at the end of the work. The slower movements are pleasant and easy enough though.
I'd guess you need plenty of time to absorb Mahler and wonder if actual concert performances would be the best approach.
I think Mahler is a pretty difficult composer, and often takes quite a while to "get", even if you're disposed to like his music, which more people are these days than was the case several decades ago.
The 7th is probably the most difficult of the symphonies, or at least the most enigmatic.
I started my Mahler adventure with the 2nd and was hooked instantly.
The 1st is pretty easy to listen too, probably a good start(although i don't like some parts of it)
Quote from: 復活交響曲 on December 30, 2007, 12:20:32 AM
Well his 8th could be hard. I never heard of any symphony that has a 55 minute movement.
65, if it's
really good ;D
Sarge
Quote from: bassio on December 29, 2007, 04:33:09 PM
When?
NOW! Quote from: bassio on December 29, 2007, 04:33:09 PM
How?
Start with the orchestral songs, namely:
Leider Eines Fahrenden Gesellen (Songs of a Wayfarer) and
Des Knaben Wunderhorn. Then the First Symphony, Second, etc., not forgetting
Das Lied von der Erde, sandwiched between the Eighth and Ninth.
Quote from: bassio on December 29, 2007, 04:33:09 PM
Where?
Wherever you are!
Sarge
I just recently started getting into Mahler. Still trying to get over the sheer length of his music (I have a short attention span). BUT, several people here encouraged me to try Symphony 1 first. I think its the shortest and probably most accessable. I'm still working on the length but I'm finding things in the music that I enjoy.
Mahler's Symphonies 1-4 are the most approachable. 6 and 9 are his greatest.
If you can understand the 6th, then you should be ready for pretty much any of the others. The 6th was one of the more difficult ones for me to understand on first listening (but I now love it of course). The most immediately accessible, for me at least, seemed to be the 1st and 5th. The 8th I still don't really like as much as any of the other symphonies, probably because of the singing throughout. If you're not much of a fan of singing, then I would recommend staying away from the 8th - to me it seems more like something out of an opera than a symphony. The singing in the 2nd and 3rd I can handle, but not in the 4th, even though it only occurs in the last movement, I haven't really gotten into this symphony yet.
If you have any problems with the length of the symphonies, then I would recommend listening to and getting your head around individual movements one at a time. This was how I learned to appreciate the 3rd and 7th. Only listening to them all the way through, I never was able to keep my concentration up to understand everything going on. It's much easier when you know each movement well.
Interesting how my progression has gone with Mahler really. When I first started out and didn't really understand him my favourites were the 1st and 5th. Then, when I listened some more times and started to really get into him my favourites were the 2nd and 6th. After that stage, I stopped listening to him for some time and now that I have gone back to him my favourites are the 3rd and 7th! Maybe I will end up liking the 4th and 8th some day...
So just keep listening, and you'll be sure to find something you enjoy. A truly great composer that rewards repeated listening!
Interestingly, the Eighth was my first exposure to Mahler--love at first hearing. :D After that, I was definitely "Mahlered." ;D
The only thing more contentious than which Mahler symphony is the greatest is which Mahler symphony is the most difficult to understand. I personally would recommend starting with the orchestral song cycles: Songs of a Wayfarer, Kindertotenlieder, Ruckert Lieder, and the Das Lied von der Erde. Since all of Mahler's music is in some way based in song, it is essential to understand the songs before you can really understand the symphonys. Even in the purely instrumental symphonys (1, 5, 6, 7, 9) references to the songs are everywhere.
The first symphony is generally agreed upon as the most approachable symphony. I also find 2, 3, 5, 6, and 9 to be easily comprehended - the later of these deal with difficult concepts, but they aren't particularly difficult to understand. Four is hard for most people to get into. This is probably because it is so different from the three symphonys that proceed it and the two symphonys that follow it. However, I find it to be the work most representative of Mahler's output. Everything Mahler did is in this work, from his simplest songs to his grandest Adagios. Then there is the seventh, which is the most conceptually complicated of his symphonys. I would save this for last. The eighth is a strange work and no doubt his most extroverted.
My advice to those who are looking at Mahler for the first time is to go slowly. Don't move on to the next symphony until you begin to understand the one you're working on.
Why not start at the very beginning, so to speak? That's right, Mahler's under-appreciated early cantata Das klagende Lied, which has a long composition history (1875-1901) and a tradition of neglect.
It is backward-looking enough, i.e., toward Wagner and beyond, and forward-looking enough (which could be a result of its nearly twenty-year gestation) to make it accessible and allusive to 'future' Mahler works.
It's also a pretty good story, as these things go.
Quote from: PSmith08 on December 31, 2007, 06:29:06 AM
Why not start at the very beginning, so to speak? That's right, Mahler's under-appreciated early cantata Das klagende Lied, which has a long composition history (1875-1901) and a tradition of neglect.
It is backward-looking enough, i.e., toward Wagner and beyond, and forward-looking enough (which could be a result of its nearly twenty-year gestation) to make it accessible and allusive to 'future' Mahler works.
It's also a pretty good story, as these things go.
You want a good story go for Sibelius'
Kullervo, it's got murder, rape, incest and madness. Pretty much run the gamut of drama right there.
Quote from: PSmith08 on December 31, 2007, 06:29:06 AM
Why not start at the very beginning, so to speak?
Because it's better to start from the very best.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on December 31, 2007, 08:02:38 AM
Because it's better to start from the very best.
"You've tried the best, now try the rest"? ???
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on December 31, 2007, 08:02:38 AM
Because it's better to start from the very best.
Well, it's not like artists progress in their careers and build on what came before or anything. Also, a work like the 6th, 7th, or 9th might prove a little daunting to someone not entirely familiar with Mahler's idiom.
Quote from: gmstudio on December 29, 2007, 05:05:35 PM
Pffft. Mahler-schmahler. ;D
Try the 9th next. If it leaves you with an unquenchable desire to slit your wrists, then welcome to the club. You're hooked for life. I suggest Baribolli's 9th. And an Exacto.
- gmstudio, member: He-man Mahler Wrist-Kutter Klub (joined 1989)
the unfortunate side-effects of Mahleria.... i suggest a healthy balance of the 4th as well, it's like putting happy lettuce bandages on your wounds ;)
I would suggest you start with the first symphony. As a whole it just starts the cycle so well with the slow quietness. It's a friendly symphony too. Once you're done with that one, you have the second symphony...and it's pretty much all a ride then! Have fun!
Quote from: jochanaan on December 31, 2007, 08:08:25 AM
"You've tried the best, now try the rest"? ???
Shrug, you'll get tired of the best eventually, that's what the rest is for. My only rule of thumb when approaching a new composer is to avoid their later, more withdrawn material (if any) before getting fully acquainted with their standard repertory, but i think it's imperative to make sure your first impression is that of a mature and fully developed artist.
Quote from: bassio on December 29, 2007, 04:33:09 PMAny other suggestions on how to approach this man?
Very soon after the beginning of your voyage of discovery you should take the time and the trouble to immerse yourself in the sublime wonders of Goethe's
Faust. Only thereafter - but soon! - listen to Mahler's
Eighth Symphony; it is by far the best.
As for the others, we may state two rules:
1) all symphonies before the Fifth may be ignored - they are wearisome prentice works;
2) any movements in symphonies 5, 6, 7 or 9 containing Viennese street songs are of little value and you can with confidence give them a miss.
In what remains there are indeed worthwhile moments, but do not waste
too much time with Mahler - there are many better and pithier composers able to say twice as much in half the time.
Quote from: Sydney Grew on December 31, 2007, 07:26:08 PM
Very soon after the beginning of your voyage of discovery you should take the time and the trouble to immerse yourself in the sublime wonders of Goethe's Faust. Only thereafter - but soon! - listen to Mahler's Eighth Symphony; it is by far the best.
As for the others, we may state two rules:
1) all symphonies before the Fifth may be ignored - they are wearisome prentice works;
2) any movements in symphonies 5, 6, 7 or 9 containing Viennese street songs are of little value and you can with confidence give them a miss.
In what remains there are indeed worthwhile moments, but do not waste too much time with Mahler - there are many better and pithier composers able to say twice as much in half the time.
:o
Quote from: Sydney Grew on December 31, 2007, 07:26:08 PM
Very soon after the beginning of your voyage of discovery you should take the time and the trouble to immerse yourself in the sublime wonders of Goethe's Faust. Only thereafter - but soon! - listen to Mahler's Eighth Symphony; it is by far the best.
As for the others, we may state two rules:
1) all symphonies before the Fifth may be ignored - they are wearisome prentice works;
2) any movements in symphonies 5, 6, 7 or 9 containing Viennese street songs are of little value and you can with confidence give them a miss.
In what remains there are indeed worthwhile moments, but do not waste too much time with Mahler - there are many better and pithier composers able to say twice as much in half the time.
Wow - is all I can say...
Quote from: Sydney Grew on December 31, 2007, 07:26:08 PM
Very soon after the beginning of your voyage of discovery you should take the time and the trouble to immerse yourself in the sublime wonders of Goethe's Faust. Only thereafter - but soon! - listen to Mahler's Eighth Symphony; it is by far the best.
As for the others, we may state two rules:
1) all symphonies before the Fifth may be ignored - they are wearisome prentice works;
2) any movements in symphonies 5, 6, 7 or 9 containing Viennese street songs are of little value and you can with confidence give them a miss.
In what remains there are indeed worthwhile moments, but do not waste too much time with Mahler - there are many better and pithier composers able to say twice as much in half the time.
Oh my god, do I smell a 72dB here?
Quote from: Sydney Grew on December 31, 2007, 07:26:08 PM
Very soon after the beginning of your voyage of discovery you should take the time and the trouble to immerse yourself in the sublime wonders of Goethe's Faust. Only thereafter - but soon! - listen to Mahler's Eighth Symphony; it is by far the best.
As for the others, we may state two rules:
1) all symphonies before the Fifth may be ignored - they are wearisome prentice works;
2) any movements in symphonies 5, 6, 7 or 9 containing Viennese street songs are of little value and you can with confidence give them a miss.
In what remains there are indeed worthwhile moments, but do not waste too much time with Mahler - there are many better and pithier composers able to say twice as much in half the time.
Since a student of music wouldn't necessarily call a
Ländler a street song in the traditional sense, we immediately discard Point the Second on grounds of irrelevancy.
As to Point the First, we recall that Gustav Mahler was born in 1860. The First was completely completed in 1906 (A.M. 45), the Second in 1903 (A.M. 42), the Third in 1906 (A.M. 45), and the Fourth in 1910 (A.M. 49, though revisions began in 1901: A.M. 40). It would be well nigh onto impossible to argue that the mature Mahler of 1901 to 1910 would be allowing 'wearisome prentice' material to remain, given the fully developed musical grammar unveiled in the Fifth (comp. 1902), the Sixth (1904, rev. c. 1906), and the Seventh (1905, rev. foll.) We, thus, discard Point the First on grounds of irrationality.
Otherwise, fine advice.
I don't know why Mahler so often reminds me of Nietzsche. He seems to me to be THE EXISTENTIALIST among composers...every note from his 1st symphony to his last and all the symphonic songs in-between.
Quote from: PSmith08 on December 31, 2007, 10:31:08 PMThe First was completely completed in 1906 (A.M. 45), the Second in 1903 (A.M. 42), the Third in 1906 (A.M. 45), and the Fourth in 1910 (A.M. 49, though revisions began in 1901: A.M. 40).
Wrong information!
The
first (wearisome prentice work) was completed in
1888;
the
second (more wearisome prentice work) was completed in
1894;
the
third (further wearisome prentice work) was completed in
1896;
the
fourth (yet more wearisome prentice work) was completed in
1900;
the
fifth was completed in
1902 - Mahler was at last up to speed;
the
sixth was completed in
1905;
the
seventh was also completed in
1905;
the
eighth was completed in
1907;
and the
ninth was completed in
1910.
The so-called
tenth was left incomplete at the time of Mahler's unfortunate death in
1911.
Remember that mere revisions cannot change the fundamental wearisome concept and nature of a work!
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on December 31, 2007, 08:02:38 AM
Because it's better to start from the very best.
Maybe you're right Josquin .. life is too short.
Anyway, I thank you all for your informative replies. So I will take your advice .. I will stick with the sixth until it makes total sense.
Surprisingly, I did not find the problem with his tonal language .. but I suspect it is the length that will make Mahler takes time.
But what strikes me that it is more of an 'epic' .. not 'tragic'.
Of course the ending is 'tragic' though ;D
Anyway, is Mahler a controversial composer (generally speaking)?
Quote from: bassio on January 01, 2008, 04:40:20 AM
Anyway, is Mahler a controversial composer (generally speaking)?
in his time, definetely!
nowadays the real controversial composers are way more controversial than Mahler- Schoenberg and his 12-tone descendants from the Darmstdadt school, the minimalists, Stockhausen, etc.... i wouldn't call him very controversial anymore...
Controversial? About as mainstream and widely accepted/loved as you can get--and with good reason, for the symphonies are diverse, intellectually engrossing, emotionally moving, and filled with one glorious melody after another. If you enjoyed the 6th, just start listening to any of the others. Except for their massive scale, Mahler's symphonies should be quite approachable for just about anyone used to the sort of late/neo-romantic music that permeates our culture via film, TV, etc. I got into Mahler right as I was first discovering classical music.
Quote from: 復活交響曲 on December 31, 2007, 09:44:56 PM
Oh my god, do I smell a 72dB here?
No. 71dB means well. Exasperating at times, but still lovable. Like PaulB, bless his heart.
Quote from: bassio on January 01, 2008, 04:40:20 AM
Surprisingly, I did not find the problem with his tonal language .. but I suspect it is the length that will make Mahler takes time.
Yep, conventional tonality using intervals which may be naturally pleasing to the ear, much as certain aromas are naturally pleasing to our sense of smell. Length is an issue. I know of only one composer whose work suffers more from resistance to the blue pencil.
That said, let me help you put my opinion in context: after Sibelius and Beethoven, Mahler is my favorite symphonist despite his shortcomings as an artist. He might never have written a sour note--which may be why he seems to have kept them all! And I second everything Grazioso says in the previous post.
Edited in response to gentle chastisement.
Quote from: Sydney Grew on December 31, 2007, 11:43:00 PM
Remember that mere revisions cannot change the fundamental wearisome concept and nature of a work!
Correct information, Slick. My usage of "completely completed" was my insurance policy against your necessary retort, though, in some cases, revisions were ongoing. It would have, in those cases, been better to have said "as completely completed as they would be due to Mahler's untimely death." In any event, while I appreciate your tacit usage of a kind of Kant's categorical imperative, some sort of argument might be nice for your dismissal. I don't see how a revision, speaking in a philological sense, cannot entail a fundamental change in a work. Indeed, speaking in that philological sense, I would argue that a revision needs to entail some such change, otherwise it is a mere correction. So, since I get to listen to 'you and other experts,' why don't ya'll convince me?
I take it, though, that you'll concede Point the First.
Quote from: 僕はグレグ (Greg) on January 01, 2008, 04:59:52 AM
in his time, definetely!
nowadays the real controversial composers are way more controversial than Mahler- Schoenberg and his 12-tone descendants from the Darmstdadt school, the minimalists, Stockhausen, etc.... i wouldn't call him very controversial anymore...
And others too.
I think it has to end soon. You can't get any quieter than 4'33" and you can't get any more um...piercing than Threnody.
So what's left?
Quote from: Sydney Grew on December 31, 2007, 11:43:00 PM
Wrong information!
The first (wearisome prentice work) was completed in 1888;
the second (more wearisome prentice work) was completed in 1894;
the third (further wearisome prentice work) was completed in 1896;
the fourth (yet more wearisome prentice work) was completed in 1900;
the fifth was completed in 1902 - Mahler was at last up to speed;
the sixth was completed in 1905;
the seventh was also completed in 1905;
the eighth was completed in 1907;
and the ninth was completed in 1910.
The so-called tenth was left incomplete at the time of Mahler's unfortunate death in 1911.
Remember that mere revisions cannot change the fundamental wearisome concept and nature of a work!
"the fundamental wearisome concept and nature" of your contributions to this thread. Plonker.
No name calling please, if you don't like views expressed, don't use personal insult as a way of combating them. Also don't let Mr Grew's passive/aggressive stance rile you.
Mike
Quote from: knight on January 01, 2008, 12:41:48 PM
No name calling please, if you don't like views expressed, don't use personal insult as a way of combating them. Also don't let Mr Grew's passive/aggressive stance rile you.
Mike
I cannot help but be riled by his rejection of the first-person singular pronoun. Why, it as though he eschews the very
principium individuationis, as Nietzsche discussed in
Die Geburt der Tragödie.
Quote from: 12tone. on January 01, 2008, 10:48:41 AM
And others too.
I think it has to end soon. You can't get any quieter than 4'33" and you can't get any more um...piercing than Threnody.
So what's left?
i guess everything inbetween, which is what they're all doing ;D
Quote from: knight on January 01, 2008, 12:41:48 PM
No name calling please, if you don't like views expressed, don't use personal insult as a way of combating them. Also don't let Mr Grew's passive/aggressive stance rile you.
Mike
Don't use "don't" with such frequency ........... We don't like it ..........
Quote from: knight on January 01, 2008, 12:41:48 PM
No name calling please, if you don't like views expressed, don't use personal insult as a way of combating them. Also don't let Mr Grew's passive/aggressive stance rile you.
Mike
Oops. Well, I did use what I consider to be mildest insult I could muster. Had I been genuinely riled, I would have blurted out something far worse. (As I have done recently, but that's another story.) Had Mr Grew contributed anything worthwhile to this thread, I would have replied in a more thoughtful manner. But I didn't want to waste my time with somebody who is obviously not up to speed. Happy New Year, by the way. x
Quote from: D Minor on January 01, 2008, 01:38:30 PM
Don't use "don't" with such frequency ........... We don't like it ..........
Is that the Royal 'we'?
MDL, Thanks.
Mike
Quote from: knight on January 01, 2008, 02:02:14 PM
Is that the Royal 'we'?
Presumably followed by a Royal Flush.
Quote from: edward on January 01, 2008, 02:03:23 PM
Presumably followed by a Royal Flush.
One may only hope.
Finally, a Royal Poopy Flying Monkey uses the toilet, and FLUSHES it! :o
For any who are curious; Mr Grew was formerly known as, 'The Egregious Professor' on another site. I assume 'Egregious' was being used in its outmoded sense of, 'set aside from the common herd', rather than in the contemporary sense of 'conspicuously reprehensible.'
I do like to know who I am dealing with; or rather, with whom I am dealing.
Mike
Quote from: PSmith08 on January 01, 2008, 01:19:29 PM
I cannot help but be riled by his rejection of the first-person singular pronoun. Why, it as though he eschews the very principium individuationis, as Nietzsche discussed in Die Geburt der Tragödie.
Yes, I can quite see why this riled you; I am thinking about getting militant about it myself.
Mike
Quote from: knight on January 01, 2008, 02:17:38 PM
Yes, I can quite see why this riled you; I am thinking about getting militant about it myself.
Mike
Quote"DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even."
Aw, let him enjoy his little affectation. We let dj get away without using upper case. Such stuff reminds me of the girls in junior high who dot their "i"s with little hearts. If these guys want to think such things distinguish them in a positive way, who are we to destroy their illusions?
Quote from: knight on January 01, 2008, 02:15:49 PM
For any who are curious; Mr Grew was formerly known as, 'The Egregious Professor' on another site. I assume 'Egregious' was being used in its outmoded sense of, 'set aside from the common herd', rather than in the contemporary sense of 'conspicuously reprehensible.'
You might add that it was
a pun, old chap - and a frightfully amusing one we find: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regius_Professorships
But do let us return to the music of Mahler - otherwise we might be
compelled to shunt this entire thread off to the coffee-bar (or "diner" as it is here so quaintly termed) and that would never do would it.
One of the reasons we say Mahler only got into his stride in 1902 with the
Fifth Symphony is that prior to that time his harmony was really rather elementary. But the moment he found himself married to the twenty years younger Miss Schindler he began to use what is called "
progressive tonality" and even a sort of
pan-tonality as Schoenberg termed it. This admirable trend continued and grew until of course it culminated in that famous chord in the unfinished "
Tenth Symphony" where
all twelve notes of the chromatic scale are sounded together - and jolly inspiring it is too!
Quote from: Sydney Grew on January 01, 2008, 03:02:22 PM
This admirable trend continued and grew until of course it culminated in that famous chord in the unfinished "Tenth Symphony" where all twelve notes of the chromatic scale are sounded together - and jolly inspiring it is too!
So is the Apocalypse.
Quote from: Sydney Grew on January 01, 2008, 03:02:22 PM
But the moment he found himself married to the twenty years younger Miss Schindler he began to use what is called "progressive tonality"
Really? In what way do the Second and Fourth symphonies--and, for that matter, a work as early as the
Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen--not use progressive tonality?
Quote from: Sydney Grew on January 01, 2008, 03:02:22 PM
This admirable trend continued and grew until of course it culminated in that famous chord in the unfinished "Tenth Symphony" where all twelve notes of the chromatic scale are sounded together - and jolly inspiring it is too!
i love that chord, too.
But does it use all 12 notes? I heard it only uses 7 or 8, although it sounds like 12. I have a page here, although i can't tell since the piano reduction doesn't have treble or bass clefs.
Quote from: 僕はグレグ (Greg) on January 01, 2008, 03:23:46 PM
i love that chord, too.
But does it use all 12 notes? I heard it only uses 7 or 8, although it sounds like 12. I have a page here, although i can't tell since the piano reduction doesn't have treble or bass clefs.
It's a nine-note chord. And it's terrifying.
Quote from: Jezetha on January 01, 2008, 03:26:53 PM
It's a nine-note chord. And it's terrifying.
yes, and much more.....
$#!#, now i'm about to listen to it again, thanks to this thread. The 10th is the deepest, darkest thing ever to the human psyche, i swear..... in the 1st movement, listening to that 9-note explosion and then having the theme return in modulations in the most gentle, quiet and beautiful way possible is like being stuck in hell and seeing heaven through a small window, realizing you can't get to it. So I can relate to this music :P
Quote from: 僕はグレグ (Greg) on January 01, 2008, 03:30:47 PM
yes, and much more.....
$#!#, now i'm about to listen to it again, thanks to this thread. The 10th is the deepest, darkest thing ever to the human psyche, i swear..... in the 1st movement, listening to that 9-note explosion and then having the theme return in modulations in the most gentle, quiet and beautiful way possible is like being stuck in hell and seeing heaven through a small window, realizing you can't get to it. So I can relate to this music :P
Interesting. To
me the chord is the hellish portal through which we reach heaven: the most beautiful Coda Mahler ever wrote...
Quote from: Jezetha on January 01, 2008, 03:34:46 PM
Interesting. To me the chord is the hellish portal through which we reach heaven: the most beautiful Coda Mahler ever wrote...
that works, too..... interesting how everyone could at least loosely understand how heaven and hell would fit in here, but not in something like a laid back Baroque Concerto.
Quote from: Sydney Grew on January 01, 2008, 03:02:22 PM
...One of the reasons we say Mahler only got into his stride in 1902 with the Fifth Symphony is that prior to that time his harmony was really rather elementary...
...but his melodic gifts, sense of form, and orchestral imagination were really rather extraordinary! ;D
Quote from: 僕はグレグ (Greg) on January 01, 2008, 03:30:47 PM
$#!#, now i'm about to listen to it again, thanks to this thread. The 10th is the deepest, darkest thing ever to the human psyche, i
Pettersson, Shostakovich?
Quote from: 僕はグレグ (Greg) on January 01, 2008, 03:23:46 PM
i love that chord, too.
But does it use all 12 notes? I heard it only uses 7 or 8, although it sounds like 12. I have a page here, although i can't tell since the piano reduction doesn't have treble or bass clefs.
About what time do you hear this chord? I don't listen to the 10th much...maybe only have once. Anyways, can you make a guess at what time this chord happens? 2:40, 5:29, etc...so you get the idea.
Quote from: Grazioso on January 02, 2008, 03:26:13 AM
Pettersson, Shostakovich?
Pettersson is like being in a prison with no windows, falsely accused for a horrible crime, feeling bad the whole time...
Shostakovich is sort of like Pettersson except the window isn't an issue- instead you decide to laugh it off...
i was thinking last night of starting a thread about comparisons like this... maybe tomorrow
Mahler 10 might not literally be the
darkest thing written, but it's the darkest thing he has written and definetely the
deepest music there is out there... but of course people could misunderstand what i mean by deep since it can mean so many things (such as deep enjoyment in general) :P
Quote from: 12tone. on January 02, 2008, 04:05:18 PM
About what time do you hear this chord? I don't listen to the 10th much...maybe only have once. Anyways, can you make a guess at what time this chord happens? 2:40, 5:29, etc...so you get the idea.
both in the 1st and last movements.
it depends on which recording, though
1st- 20'27
5th- 13'30
Eh greg, that chord sounds interesting. Is it loud? Is it possible to be missed?
Quote from: Sydney Grew on December 31, 2007, 11:43:00 PM
The first was completed in 1888;
the second was completed in 1894;
the third was completed in 1896;
the fourth was completed in 1900;
the fifth was completed in 1902;
the sixth was completed in 1905;
the seventh was also completed in 1905;
the eighth was completed in 1907;
and the ninth was completed in 1910.
The so-called tenth was left incomplete at the time of Mahler's unfortunate death in 1911.
To our above-quoted list should perhaps be added the "
Song-Symphony" of 1909, which is not numbered among the symphonies proper, but whose composition helps to explain the long gap of three years between the appearance of the eighth and the ninth.
It is interesting is it not that Dr. Williams's
First Symphony - sometimes known as the "
Sea Symphony" - also appeared in 1909. Its composition was begun in 1903 and that of Mahler's contribution not until 1907. We cannot really say though that Mahler had from Dr. Williams the concept of a grand symphonic work with voices; perhaps it was simply something in the air at the period. We find the Williams a rather better work; it has more energy and sweep.
Dr. Williams? Who's that? Gustav Mahler's primary care physician?
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on January 02, 2008, 06:54:49 PM
Dr. Williams? Who's that? Gustav Mahler's primary care physician?
Vaughan Williams?
Quote from: Sydney Grew on January 02, 2008, 06:46:19 PM
It is interesting is it not that Dr. Williams's First Symphony - sometimes known as the "Sea Symphony" - also appeared in 1909. Its composition was begun in 1903 and that of Mahler's contribution not until 1907. We cannot really say though that Mahler had from Dr. Williams the concept of a grand symphonic work with voices; perhaps it was simply something in the air at the period. We find the Williams a rather better work; it has more energy and sweep.
Yes, Mahler (greatest conductor in Europe at that time) went to England, and secretly stole some manuscripts from an English composer called vaugh... no, VAUGHAN WILLIAMS
Isn't this what you are implying? Did Mahler even know that there was a guy called Dr. Williams in England?
of course, it's impossible to answer this question, since both are dead.
Quote from: Sydney Grew on January 02, 2008, 06:46:19 PM
It is interesting is it not that Dr. Williams's First Symphony - sometimes known as the "Sea Symphony" - also appeared in 1909. Its composition was begun in 1903 and that of Mahler's contribution not until 1907. We cannot really say though that Mahler had from Dr. Williams the concept of a grand symphonic work with voices;
Indeed not, we really can't. Because he had that idea from a composer named Beethoven; who was not necessarily the first to use voices in a symphonic work either, but the composer who set the standard in symphonic writing (in general, not necessarily just related to the use of voices) for many of who came after him, including Mahler. Given the obvious shallowness of your musical knowledge, you may not have heard of that earlier composer, so here is the corresponding wikipedia link for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_van_Beethoven
Some composers saw this as defining the end of the traditional symphonic form and pointing in the direction of programmatic instrumental or operatic works essential defined in their form by the program; some composers avoided the fundamental challenge of combining a symphonic structure based on formal principles with a lyrical structure based on text content; Mahler took the idea and approached it from a new direction which combined symphonic form partially defined by formal criteria, partial by programmatic content with lyrical form defined by the content of Lieder which, although the word "Lied" in German means "song" in this context is not the same as simply a "song". Therefore in English, the term "lied" is commonly used. You need to read up on that, too, as your earlier (incorrect) reference to "Viennese street songs" shows: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lied
The defining element of a Lied is the literary quality of its text and the musical form derived from that. Composers such as Schubert and Schumann (you can look these up on wikipedia, too) had made significant and defining contributions to this specific form, including the grouping of several Lieder into a cycle with a common or connected theme (e.g. Schubert's "Winterreise").
Mahler combined all these elements and created symphonic forms defined both by formal and programmatic aspects with the cyclical form and context of Lieder with a specific theme and in doing so, summed up the entire symphonic world of the 19th century in all the forms that had been generated after Beethoven's 9th and gave it new coherence by referring to the literary context of the Lieder cycle.
That has absolutely nothing to do with "Dr. Williams". It is already obvious in his first symphonies which you apparently don't really know and certainly don't understand at all.
Quote from: Gustav on January 02, 2008, 07:19:49 PM
Yes, Mahler (greatest conductor in Europe at that time) went to England, and secretly stole some manuscripts from an English composer called vaugh... no, VAUGHAN WILLIAMS
Isn't this what you are implying? Did Mahler even know that there was a guy called Dr. Williams in England?
The author of this little gem of a message displays a misunderstanding not of one but of two musical points:
1) Mahler was
not the "greatest conductor in Europe at that time." He was a mere part-timer! The greatest conductor in Europe at that time (1907 say) was probably Hans Richter. But Sir Henry Wood, who greatly admired Richter's work, and was no mean conductor himself, nevertheless considered
Arthur Nikisch "the greatest conductor that ever lived."
2) The Member suggests that we are "implying" that "Mahler secretly stole some manuscripts from Dr. Williams." Again, this is entirely in error! Indeed it verges upon the absurd. If the Member looks again at our message he will see that we say the
precise opposite of that, namely that Mahler did
not get - and could not have got - from Williams the concept of a grand symphony with voices.
Quote from: M forever on January 02, 2008, 08:48:27 PM
Mahler combined all these elements and created symphonic forms defined both by formal and programmatic aspects with the cyclical form and context of Lieder with a specific theme and in doing so, summed up the entire symphonic world of the 19th century in all the forms that had been generated after Beethoven's 9th and gave it new coherence by referring to the literary context of the Lieder cycle.
There is just one obstacle to our acceptance of this may we say somewhat wild assertion; that obstacle is
Johannes Brahms. The same Brahms - he expired in 1897 - whom Schoenberg, remember, dubbed "the progressive one."
Quote from: Sydney Grew on January 02, 2008, 09:04:35 PM
Mahler was not the "greatest conductor in Europe at that time." He was a mere part-timer!
Once again, you betray your complete ignorance of the subject. Apart from the fact that the question whether or not Mahler was "the greatest conductor in Europe at that time" is silly and pointless, that he was "a mere part-timer" is simply wrong. Mahler had a very busy conducting career. He ruled the Wiener Hofoper with an iron fist for 10 years, a feat in itself, and in addition to being its director, and completely unlike modern music directors who conduct a relatively small number of performances themselves, he also conducted a very large number of performances there, often several evenings every week.
Quote from: Sydney Grew on January 02, 2008, 09:22:26 PM
There is just one obstacle to our acceptance of this may we say somewhat wild assertion; that obstacle is Johannes Brahms. The same Brahms - he expired in 1897 - whom Schoenberg, remember, dubbed "the progressive one."
And you obviously don't understand what Schoenberg meant by that. In this context, it plays absolutely no role and changes nothing about what I said. Which is not a wild assertion, but a simple observation about Mahler's approach to the "symphonic problem". That has to do with Brahms only insofar as Brahms was one of the composers who decided to develop the traditional symphonic form further without the external programmatic or literary elements. Like, in his own personal way, Anton Bruckner. That doesn't make either of them less "progressive" in their approaches and solutions than Mahler. They just chose different paths and explored other formal solutions. But their success in that may have pushed Mahler further into his direction, the synthesis of formal, literary, and programmatic elements into new symphonic structures.
Excellent postings, M forever! Your perseverance in the production of mental crutches for the wilfully blind (and deaf) is admirable.
Quote from: M forever on January 02, 2008, 09:38:01 PM
Once again, you betray your complete ignorance of the subject. Apart from the fact that the question whether or not Mahler was "the greatest conductor in Europe at that time" is silly and pointless, that he was "a mere part-timer" is simply wrong. Mahler had a very busy conducting career. He ruled the Wiener Hofoper with an iron fist for 10 years, a feat in itself, and in addition to being its director, and completely unlike modern music directors who conduct a relatively small number of performances themselves, he also conducted a very large number of performances there, often several evenings every week.
It is odd that our dear friend cites Nikisch, since Mahler established himself by filling in for that conductor in Wagner. It must have been very good, since Nikisch got his Wagner from the Master himself. Richter, too, is a strange choice, since Mahler succeeded him as the subscription-conductor of the Wiener Philharmoniker, so the contemporary view among the Viennese musicians likely wasn't as bleak as some might intimate. In addition to conducting, as you most assuredly know, though I have my concerns about your correspondent, Mahler designed the productions (with the assistance of Alfred Roller) himself. The only other conductor to do that in 'recent' times, if I recall correctly, was Herbert von Karajan. Don't rule out Mahler's brief engagement in New York, either. Had his infective endocarditis not intervened, he probably would have had as successful a career in New York as he did in Vienna.
Maybe. Or maybe not. That is pure speculation. More likely not, though. His one season at the Metropolitan Opera was largely successful but went nowhere and was overshadowed by conflicts with the board and the younger colleague Toscanini to whom he eventually left the field. If his conducting career with the New York Philharmonic would have lasted much longer is rather doubtful, too. Widespread anti-German sentiments during WWI and the ban on performing German repertoire would probably ended his career there unhappily. It is probably better that he didn't live to have that happen to him and to see the world he came from and with which he had a complicated, but very intense relationship disintegrate in WWI.
Quote from: Jezetha on January 02, 2008, 11:19:39 PM
Excellent postings, M forever! Your perseverance in the production of mental crutches for the wilfully blind (and deaf) is admirable.
Thanks, but providing crutches is not really my intention, and they won't help some of the mental cases on the loose here anyway. They don't talk about music. They just need attention for themselves. I enjoy an actual discussion based on actual knowledge of facts and reflected views. When one of our resident I-really-have-no-clue-what-I-am-talking-about-but-I-still-have-the-most-pretentious-opinions-and-I-don't-care-if-these-have-no-basis-in-reality experts derails a potentially interesting thread, it is sometimes necessary to bring the thread back on track.
Quote from: Jezetha on January 02, 2008, 11:19:39 PM
Excellent postings, M forever! Your perseverance in the production of mental crutches for the wilfully blind (and deaf) is admirable.
Indeed! What a praiseworthy persistence he demonstrates! It puts us in mind of the good Percy Scholes's explanation of the
Basso Ostinato or
Ground Bass: "It consists of a short low phrase repeated many times with varied upper parts."
But let us, ever in fear of banishment to the Coffee Bar, return to the music of Gustave Mahler, and in particular to the very end of his
Eighth Symphony, where he sets these words from the very end of
Faust itself. They are sung by a
CHORUS MYSTICUS, while a
CHOR SELIGER KNABEN (Chorus of Divine Youths) looks on:
"Alles Vergängliche
Ist nur ein Gleichnis;
Das Unzulängliche
Hier wird's Ereignis;
Das Unbeschreibliche,
Hier ist's getan;
Das Ewigweibliche
Zieht uns hinan."
Let us translate for those lacking the German:
"Everything transitory
Is no more than an image;
The inachievable--
Here it takes place;
The indescribable--
Here it is performed;
The eternally feminine
Draws us onwards and upwards."
But are those final two lines strictly true we wonder? We can imagine them applying to some composers: to Mahler himself, Wagner, Richard Strauss, Scryabine, Mozart even. Their lady friends, that is to say, may well have inspired their music in some way. But in Bach's case despite the number of his progeny we do not think so. Nor in Beethoven's despite those odd letters come to that. Nor in Bruckner's; nor in the case of the legion of homosexualistic composers European and American. And indeed it is true that home and hearth have in many instances been a
deterrent to creative endeavour rather than its stimulus. And not only that - there have not been many (or even any) first-rate lady composers. (The sex has done rather better in the field of literature.) So does this curious and we think
misleading ending drawn from Goethe invalidate in some way the entire symphony? It is a fine
finale up to a point but is it artistically true? What do Members think?
Quote from: Sydney Grew on January 03, 2008, 01:14:58 AM
Indeed! What a praiseworthy persistence he demonstrates! It puts us in mind of the good Percy Scholes's explanation of the Basso Ostinato or Ground Bass: "It consists of a short low phrase repeated many times with varied upper parts."
Jezetha wasn't referring to any persistent repetition in this thread. I didn't repeat anything here. I just pointed out a few very basic facts. Still, it will take you a long time to actually understand what I wrote above since you completely lack the background knowledge required for even a superficial understanding of where Mahler's music stands in the context of the Austro-German symphonic tradition in particular and central European culture in general. Your continuous hollow blabla here and sketchy, borrowed knowledge doesn't fool anyone. You can't even reply in your own words, but need a random quote from somewhere for that, too.
If you at least had the decency to address the people who invest some time to reply to your posts directly, there would be a little bit of hope left. But your continuous idiotic third person ("the Member says") makes it clear that you are a hopeless case. You sound like the serial killer in The Silence of the Lambs. "The Member puts the lotion in the basket".
Enough of your nonsense.
One more final thing, though:
Quote from: Sydney Grew on January 03, 2008, 01:14:58 AM
"Das Ewigweibliche
Zieht uns hinan."
Let us translate for those lacking the German
You are obviously lacking "the German" and you obviously didn't translate anything here. You don't even understand what these two lines actually mean. "Das Ewigweibliche" doesn't have much to do with the adolescent sexual ideas you associate with that phrase. It is a much more complex concept than that. The ending isn't misleading at all. It leads to the understanding of what "das Ewigweibliche" means - apparently not for you, though.
Quote from: Sydney Grew on January 02, 2008, 09:04:35 PMThe Member suggests that we are "implying" that "Mahler secretly stole some manuscripts from Dr. Williams." Again, this is entirely in error! Indeed it verges upon the absurd. If the Member looks again at our message he will see that we say the precise opposite of that, namely that Mahler did not get - and could not have got - from Williams the concept of a grand symphony with voices.
Whoops. My hopes, already dashed, have now been trampled into a wet spot on the pavement and washed away by Heaven's tears. I had hoped that behind all this posturing was a fellow with a very dry and perverse sense of humor having fun with this Sydney character, but --
alas! (insert back of hand to forehead emoticon here) -- it's now clear even to a dullard like myself that this fellow has no sense of humor at all.
And if he genuinely thinks RVW's sea symphony is a patch on DLvDE, then his judgment is as impaired as his funny bone.
Alas!
Quote from: Sydney Grew on January 03, 2008, 01:14:58 AM
But let us, ever in fear of banishment to the Coffee Bar, return to the music of Gustave Mahler, and in particular to the very end of his Eighth Symphony,
Das Ewigweibliche
Zieht uns hinan."
[/i]
Let us translate for those lacking the German:
The eternally feminine
Draws us onwards and upwards."
But are those final two lines strictly true we wonder? We can imagine them applying to some composers: to Mahler himself, Wagner, Richard Strauss, Scryabine, Mozart even. Their lady friends, that is to say, may well have inspired their music in some way. But in Bach's case despite the number of his progeny we do not think so. Nor in Beethoven's despite those odd letters come to that. Nor in Bruckner's; nor in the case of the legion of homosexualistic composers European and American. And indeed it is true that home and hearth have in many instances been a deterrent to creative endeavour rather than its stimulus. And not only that - there have not been many (or even any) first-rate lady composers. (The sex has done rather better in the field of literature.) So does this curious and we think misleading ending drawn from Goethe invalidate in some way the entire symphony? It is a fine finale up to a point but is it artistically true? What do Members think?
Bannishment to the coffee bar? No, don't fear it any longer.
If the Mods worked to their own inclinations; it would be the
bin that would be the repository of your verbiage. However, as we try to stick by the rules here; your 'stuff' is left intact. BTW, I am disappointed that you seem to imagine 'coffee-bar' to be a synonym for 'Diner', you must try harder.
However, to Music. I cannot believe you are serious in your interpretation of the final lines of the Eighth. As M says, that concept is highly complex, psychological and in part theological, perhaps another side issue on which you might bone up.
Although I enjoy Vaughn Williams Sea Symphony, you are the first person I know of who has suggested it might be on a par with, let alone superior to, DLVDE. I tend not to enter the territory of who is greater than whom and is Mozart's 41st as good as Beethoven's 9th, so I will be content merely to give a personal opinion rather than pontificate.
Mahler's DLVDE sounds to me to be a profound masterpiece. The Sea Symphony has superb things in it; but seems to contain long moments of wallowing, is very eccentric in some of the word setting and indeed is hampered by Whitman's clunky text. "O vast rondures swimming in space" Indeed....balls. "A pennant universal." Set repeatedly and increasingly stridently.
I never exhaust my fascination with the Mahler piece which I feel touches deeply on the human condition. The VW tries that and is moving, but seems inconsistent, with some relatively uninspired minutes along side the beautiful and the original.
Mike
I like Whitman a great deal, but he does write some real clunkers. There's some robust anti-art sentiment (very much a Zeitgeist) reflected in there, but it doesn't stop the clunkers from clunking.
Karl, I know your feelings on Whitman; but singing that text is something of a challenge and an education in what is wrong with the text and some of how it is set. I don't think it is a matter of taste having moved on, the structure of some lines of the verse is very odd and VW sometimes seemed intent on highlighting the oddness to infelicitous effect.
I know there are some here who think Newman's text for Gerontious is beyond bizarre, but it is grateful to sing and does not have the literial awkwardness that is within the Sea Symphony text.
Mike
Thanks for the insight, Mike! And I do imagine that my feelings for Whitman might stand some modification, if I were in a chorus singing the text :)
Back on topic, much as I (passively, I admit) enjoy the Vaughan Williams, I agree that Das Lied von der Erde is in every way a more accomplished work.
Quote from: 復活交響曲 on January 02, 2008, 05:11:03 PM
Eh greg, that chord sounds interesting. Is it loud? Is it possible to be missed?
oh yeah, it's loud and you can't miss it! It has a sustained trumpet note and the chord is played twice both times, before and after the sustained trumpet.
in fact, in John Adams' Harmonielehre (another masterpiece), he quotes this exact passage in the 2nd movement. I didn't even realize it until i read about it in the Mystery Scores thread! :D
Quote from: knight on January 03, 2008, 05:32:15 AM
Karl, I know your feelings on Whitman; but singing that text is something of a challenge and an education in what is wrong with the text and some of how it is set. I don't think it is a matter of taste having moved on, the structure of some lines of the verse is very odd and VW sometimes seemed intent on highlighting the oddness to infelicitous effect.
I know there are some here who think Newman's text for Gerontious is beyond bizarre, but it is grateful to sing and does not have the literial awkwardness that is within the Sea Symphony text.
Mike
Maybe good old RVW wanted to really throw you constantly off balance... as if onboard a ship in the roiling seas. It does induce some seasickness, doesn't it?
Ouch!
QuoteThat duck was never meant to be a sailor.
— But now he sails!
Quote from: O Mensch on January 03, 2008, 11:14:57 AM
Maybe good old RVW wanted to really throw you constantly off balance... as if onboard a ship in the roiling seas. It does induce some seasickness, doesn't it?
It induces some sort of sickness in the stomach allright, but it has nothing to do with the sea per say.
I am possibly being harsh; one thing it does do is give an impression of the sea in many of its moods. However, Debussy did it rather more economically, not that Debussy cornered the market.
I have one version of The Sea Symphony and 11 of DLVDE; that indicates the inexaustability of one of the pieces.
Mike
Quote from: knight on January 03, 2008, 11:36:01 AM
I am possibly being harsh; one thing it does do is give an impression of the sea in many of its moods. However, Debussy did it rather more economically, not that Debussy cornered the market.
I have one version of The Sea Symphony and 11 of DLVDE; that indicates the inexaustability of one of the pieces.
Mike
Much as I love DLvdE--it's one of the few compositions that can still bring literal tears to my eyes--I have to defend A Sea Symphony (I thought about making an acronym out of that title, then thought again. :o) as a fine choral symphony. I don't doubt that Walt Whitman's text is difficult to set to music--it has musicality
if spoken, and that may be one of the problems--but RVW did a very fine job on that, and the symphony is mostly very fine. Possibly I'm prejudiced by the recording I have, a (probably) 1950s tape with Sir Adrian Boult leading the London Philharmonic Choir and Orchestra; Boult had a real way with Vaughan Williams (and Holst). :D
I disagree. I think approaching Mahler could be very difficult. First, you have to go to the Grinzinger Cemetary in Vienna. Go to Grouping 6, Row 7, Grave #1. Start digging. When you're stopped right quick, you'll discover just how difficult approaching him can be.
Quote from: bassio on December 29, 2007, 04:33:09 PM
When? How? Where?
I have just started discovering him.
I started by listening to his sixth (Kubelik). Any other suggestions on how to approach this guy?
Thanks
Yeah, the 6th conducted by Herbert Von Karajan, and the 9th as well. Grab the Klemperer 2nd while you're at it. And hold off on the 3rd until well after those, you'll need plenty of time to recover.
I disagree .. from the fights *cough cough* I mean arguments that expanded this thread to a 5 pager still proves that Mahler is essentially controversial even to this day ;D
Thanks for the suggestions Haffner .. any more recording suggestions for the sixth (and the second) for me?
Quote from: bassio on January 03, 2008, 03:24:48 PM
I disagree .. from the fights *cough cough* I mean arguments that expanded this thread to a 5 pager still proves that Mahler is essentially controversial even to this day ;D
Thanks for the suggestions Haffner .. any more recording suggestions for the sixth (and the second) for me?
I liked the Boulez 6th and the Slatkin 2nd (the latter with the often estimable Kathleen Battle). Also, I really enjoy the Bernstein 8th and 9th.
Quote from: bassio on January 03, 2008, 03:24:48 PM
I disagree .. from the fights *cough cough* I mean arguments that expanded this thread to a 5 pager still proves that Mahler is essentially controversial even to this day ;D
Thanks for the suggestions Haffner .. any more recording suggestions for the sixth (and the second) for me?
Boulez for both.
Re. controversy: If the term suggests a difference of opinion among the informed, then there is no evidence of controversy in the pages of this thread.
Quote from: longears on January 03, 2008, 05:00:28 PM
Boulez for both.
I very much like his studio 6th and can recommend it without hesitation, though there are still plenty other 6ths I'd like to hear.
However, I think the live 2nd that got posted here a few times is distinctly superior to the studio one (fine as it is).
Quote from: longears on January 03, 2008, 05:00:28 PM
Re. controversy: If the term suggests a difference of opinion among the informed, then there is no evidence of controversy in the pages of this thread.
It's hidden between the posts. ;D Seriously, I can't speak for everyone, but I try to reserve my extreme opinions for pages specifically discussing controverial aspects, and keep them away from threads like this one that are merely requests for information.
Anyone else enjoying Benjamin Zander's (ongoing) cycle? Each symphony is accompanied by an hour-or-so long discussion by the conductor. The 9th even includes a printed reproduction of the first two pages of the score, complete w/ Zander's markings. He then walks you through those two pages, bar by bar. His discussions are really great in that, while they do touch on musical language, they aren't directed at "learned musicians" per se.
I highly, HIGHLY recommend these for any Mahler fan. I've been a Mahler-ite for years and learned a lot from these discussions:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/515EFM4J24L._AA240_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41GRVE8EHRL._AA240_.jpg)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/417W2GR0MBL._AA240_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/416FDA7PG6L._AA240_.jpg)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31YA0V7R2AL._AA240_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41X2RMYZERL._AA240_.jpg)
Quote from: gmstudio on January 04, 2008, 09:29:15 AM
Anyone else enjoying Benjamin Zander's (ongoing) cycle?
I have all of them. The performances are actually pretty good. Each is beautifully played and recorded and very professionally done. I can't take the lectures, I am sorry...
And I don't think they are ongoing, Telarc seem to have pulled the plug on the rest of the cycle. You are not going to see 2, 7, 8, 10 or
Das Lied anytime soon.
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on January 04, 2008, 09:34:23 AM
And I don't think they are ongoing, Telarc seem to have pulled the plug on the rest of the cycle. You are not going to see 2, 7, 8, 10 or Das Lied anytime soon.
That's a real shame.
As some of you know, Mahler is not my favorite. However, I still continue to return to his music with fresh ears from time to time hoping the nut will crack. Maybe it is the recordings that I have or possibly the pieces I have are not the best starting points. So, please recommend to me one Mahler recording that you believe could help me to break through that I do not have listed. Appreciated.
Here are the works I have:
Symph. 1: Bernstein/NYPO (Sony)
Symph. 1: Slatkin/St. Louis
Symph. 1: Urbanek/Prague Fest. Orch.
Symph. 2: Slatkin/St. Louis
Symph. 2: Bernstein/NYPO (Sony)
Symph. 3: Bernstein/NYPO (Sony)
Symph. 4: Tennstedt/LPO
Symph. 7: Bernstein/NYPO (DG)
Symph. 9: HvK/BPO (DG live)
Maybe a different perspective will help ;D :
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31B04CD2AWL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31P47FBGT0L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
I'm joking, though actually, who knows - it might be worth a go!
Bogey,
Because Mahler's symphonies were so long (most of them), perhaps it would help to listen to more "accessible" movements.
I recommend starting with:
Symphony 1 - 2nd mvt (Frere Jacques!!)
Symphony 2 - 2nd and 4th mvts
Symphony 5 - 4th mvt Adagietto
Symphony 6 - Andante (which is either 2nd or 3rd mvt ;D)
Symphony 10 - Adagio
Sorry, I know I'm mainly recommending the slow movements, but that's what worked for me. It took a long time for me to warm up to Mahler, a long time! But it's been a great experience, and worth the time and effort!
I only have the Tennstedt/LPO set, so I can't really recommend recordings, although I have heard Boulez and VP? for S2 and that was fantastic! Also just got the fairly new recording of the "performing completed" 10th Deryck Cooke version, performed by Vienna Phil/Daniel Harding conducting. Incredible! :)
Keep trying, and take a lot of time off between Mahler sessions. 8)
Face it. Some people are just not made for Mahler.
Quote from: Bogey on March 16, 2009, 03:56:02 AM
As some of you know, Mahler is not my favorite. However, I still continue to return to his music with fresh ears from time to time hoping the nut will crack. Maybe it is the recordings that I have or possibly the pieces I have are not the best starting points. So, please recommend to me one Mahler recording that you believe could help me to break through that I do not have listed. Appreciated.
Here are the works I have:
Symph. 1: Bernstein/NYPO (Sony)
Symph. 1: Slatkin/St. Louis
Symph. 1: Urbanek/Prague Fest. Orch.
Symph. 2: Slatkin/St. Louis
Symph. 2: Bernstein/NYPO (Sony)
Symph. 3: Bernstein/NYPO (Sony)
Symph. 4: Tennstedt/LPO
Symph. 7: Bernstein/NYPO (DG)
Symph. 9: HvK/BPO (DG live)
I used to have a similar problem and am still unconvinced on #6,7, and 9. What got me into it (the rest) was a Video of the Mahler 2 under Abaddo and the Mahlerfest Orchestra (or whatever the name was). I was sitting down to work at the computer, when this came up on tv. After about 1-2 minutes, I was hooked and couldn't turn away (and it's long!). At about the same time (was only last year or so), I heard a Kondrashin 5 recording that blew me away. What I particularly liked about the Kondrashin was that his approach was different and he didn't go crazy with it (meaing overly sentimental). Maybe Bernstein just isn't the one for you. Incidentally, not everyone is of the Bernstein school (meaning he really played up certain aspects of the music). In this case, a different approach like Bertini (fairly straight) or Kondrashin (harder to find, but a different take on it) may be better for you.
Myself, I had always tried to get into #1 (as it is more approachable). I had Abddo and Kubelik. I even got the Kubelik on Audite. I have since acquired both of the above on CD (although sometimes watching it can be more engaging for a tough piece). I have also acquired the Bertini set, which suits me fine (#8 is fabulous and the opening to the Das Lied is absolutely stunning). I have also acquired more Kondrashin, a Chailly, and a Bernstein.
I guess it really depends where you are coming from. If you like choral/solo pieces, the Das Lied and #8 may be a better starting point. #1 never really gelled with me. In fact, I should really include it with 6,7, and 9 (perhaps in time) and I've stopped worrying about whether I will like it. If it comes, it comes.
There are a lot of famous versions, and I would also suggest reading a survey done over on musicweb: http://www.musicweb-international.com/Mahler/index.html. This may be a useful reference.
My only advice is just not to force it. Keep trying it from time to time, and if it never comes, don't sweat it.
For what it's worth (not much ;D), I'm still lukewarm on the 3rd, 7th and definitely am not a fan of the 8th. I've started to warm up a bit to the 9th.
I'd recommend Barbirolli for 5 & 6, both because they are excellent, and they would fill in a couple of your gaps.
It also looks like you've got a lot of Bernstein. I love Lenny, but part of what you're not liking may be his over-the-top approach. You might want to try someone a bit more neutral interpretation-wise, and in better sound (which nixes the Barbirolli). Gary Bertini's set comes immediately to mind.
Keep at it, but don't try to make an obligation out of it -- if Haydn makes you happy, there's nothing wrong with that... :)
I find the key to Mahler is giving up the notion that his works have any coherence. Keep something handy to occupy yourself, like a checkbook that needs balancing, to relieve the boredom until one of the good parts comes a long. The famous quip about Wagner, there there are some great moments and some bad quarters of an hour, is actually true with respect to Mahler. In some works you will have to wait up to 30 minutes between good parts. One tip, if you hear a boys choir singing "bim-bam-bim-bam" hit the "next track" button immediately.
Quote from: nut-job on March 16, 2009, 05:49:17 AM
The famous quip about Wagner, there there are some great moments and some bad quarters of an hour, is actually true with respect to Mahler.
I think it's true with neither. In fact, i actually consider Mahler to be one of the tightest composers i know of. There is no wasted spaces or gestures in any of his symphonies. Everything is calculated to perfection, down to the last minutiae. If you really have problems with Mahler, i'd recommend listening to Liszt first, the influence of which is unequivocal, and vastly underrated, particularly in terms of formal development, which apparently is one of the things people seem to have trouble with on their first Mahler experience.
Quote from: Mn Dave on March 16, 2009, 05:08:50 AM
Face it. Some people are just not made for Mahler.
I feel the same way. I don't like every moment of music I hear, whether it's classical, pop, jazz, rock. It sounds as if you have tried, Bill, and you just don't like Mahler. I'm the same way with a lot of Brahms, Mendelssohn, Bruckner, to say nothing of individual artists or albums in all those other genres.
I just happened to get the Mahler gene. I took to his music instantly. My first two were the Bernstein First you have (only the earlier, CBS, pressing) and HvK's Fourth. That Fourth is so elegant, so beautiful, it continues to be one of my favorite recordings to this very day. I can listen forever, it seems, to the sleigh bells in the first movement and the point where the third movement gives way to the fourth.
The Second is listenable to in any number of versions: both Bernstein's (DG and Sony--don't buy a CBS Second); Bruno Walter; Rattle; Tennstedt; Solti.
I have not found many Thirds I like as much as Bernstein's on CBS, except for Tilson-Thomas' SACD, and very recently, on SACD, Valery Gergiev's.
HvK's trumps every other Fourth.
I listened to a lot of Fifths until I settled on Sinopoli's; I also like Bernstein's on DG, Solti's, and Tennstedt (I like everything by Tennstedt, really).
The only Sixth I consider essential is Bernstein's CBS version, though I also like his DG, and Tennstedt's, of course. And the new one by Gergiev. Like Bernstein, Gergiev doesn't get universally good reviews, but I've liked everything I've heard so far in his Mahler cycle.
There are so many great Sevenths. If I could only have one, it would be Bernstein's on DG. But I also love Bernstein's on CBS, M T-T's, and new ones by Barenboim and Gergiev (though it is too fast to recommend as anyone's first version).
The best 8th is Tennstedt's; no, Sinopoli's; no, it's Bernstein's on CBS.
Bernstein's Ninth on CBS really is my favorite Ninth. If you can find the original CBS fatboy CD version of Bernstein's 7-9-10 Adagio, well, that's just one of the most beautiful musical things a person could find. It's the picture in my avatar, btw.
I've never fallen in love with Das Lied von der Erde, nor with any expanded Tenth, so I'll leave recommendations in those to others.
Quote from: Bogey on March 16, 2009, 03:56:02 AM
As some of you know, Mahler is not my favorite....
And he may never be. I hate to be negative, Bill, but unless one of the remaining works you haven't heard turns you on for some reason, it doesn't appear at this point that you're ever going to get Mahler. I don't see anything wrong with the versions you own...nothing that would make another conductor's interpretation suddenly make sense of the music for you anyway. Like Dave and Karl, Mahler is a taste you may never acquire.
(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/gm2/BogeyMahlered.jpg)
I would recommend you listen to the Fifth though. It is his most popular symphony.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 16, 2009, 07:34:35 AM
I would recommend you listen to the Fifth though. It is his most popular symphony.
Sarge
Which Mahler 5th, Sarge? And you can only pick one. ;D
Quote from: Bogey on March 16, 2009, 07:37:23 AM
Which Mahler 5th, Sarge? And you can only pick one. ;D
The cheapest you can find ;D Seriously, no sense spending a bundle on music you might dislike.
Pace Herr schleppend, Sinopoli's Fifth is probably my least favorite in my collection of 23 Mahler Fifths. I much prefer Levine/Philadelphia, Karajan/Berlin, Chailly/Concertgebouw, Haitink/Berlin and, above all, Neumann/Leipzig. Many like Barshai and, come to think of it, that would be my one recommendation (and it comes coupled with a great 10th). At Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symphony-Nos-Reconstruction-Barshai/dp/B0002IQBB2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1237218743&sr=1-1) for twelve bucks.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 16, 2009, 07:55:23 AM
The cheapest you can find ;D Seriously, no sense spending a bundle on music you might dislike. Pace Herr schleppend, Sinopoli's Fifth is probably my least favorite in my collection of 23 Mahler Fifths. I much prefer Levine/Philadelphia, Karajan/Berlin, Chailly/Concertgebouw, Haitink/Berlin and, above all, Neumann/Leipzig. Many like Barshai and, come to think of it, that would be my one recommendation (and it comes coupled with a great 10th). At Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symphony-Nos-Reconstruction-Barshai/dp/B0002IQBB2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1237218743&sr=1-1) for twelve bucks.
FWIW, Bill, the Barshai is what came immediately to mind when I saw your question to Sarge. As for your more general question, I would recommend the 4th, the 1st, and
Das Lied von der Erde, and for a different approach than those you have I suggest Boulez. Bear in mind that there are many recordings you can hear for free via Rhapsody, including many highly regarded Mahler discs. Here, for instance, is a link to Boulez's
Das Lied (http://www.rhapsody.com/album/mahler-das-lied-von-der-erde--2001?artistId=61331). They also have many MTT/SFS recordings, including the 5th, which I think is terrific.
In simple terms:
Get the 5th. How it's played and by whom doesn't matter, because you're just wanting to experience the music FIRST.
One you've listened, and you think a better version is worth an investment, THEN get something meaningful like Barshai or Neumann.
If you have problems accessing versions or would like tasters, etc posted on afileshare server,let me know, I'll be only too happy to oblige.
:)
Alternatively, dig out these great performances which you already have and question what it is that you don't like about them, and let us know!
Symph. 4: Tennstedt/LPO
Symph. 7: Bernstein/NYPO
It took me years--more than a decade, actually--to even start to enjoy Mahler. Ditto on Bruckner. My experience is a bit different than others here...and your reactions will surely be YOUR own, as well. Still, I'll offer my take on things.
Mahler's 1st and 4th may not be the height of his art, according to some critics, but they are short enough to listen to in one sitting and I think this pays some benefits in getting acclimated to the composer. This, then, is where I suggest most people start.
For the 1st, I like Walter (at least until the last movement, where things don't quite pay off ideally IMO) and Horenstein (a bit more straightforward throughout); and though it's been around for ages, Levine's 1st on RCA was one I never heard until a couple of years ago--utterly different from Horenstein especially and really exciting. For the 4th, Szell remains at the top of my list, and Reiner's right there too, but Previn's EMI recording with the Pittsburgh and the divine Elly Ameling offers an alternative with fresh playing and beautiful presentation.
Most of the remaining Mahler symphonies still feel long to me, and I tend to listen to them on the installment plan--one or two movements now, another in a day or so, etc. You might see if it works for you. Particular favorites for me are Klemperer for the 2nd (once critically acclaimed but now given a big "meh!" by many), Horenstein for the 3rd, Barbirolli for the 5th and Walter for the 9th.
All of these are from the analog era; I've acquired more recent performances, some studio and some live, but not ones I know well enough yet to recommend...so take this into account. Still, among more recent offerings, what I've heard so far tells me that when Tennstedt, Abbado and Levine are leading Mahler, there's usually some worthy musicmaking going on.
In re the "go cheap" suggestions...don't forget about downloads (a complete live Mahler cycle showed up on OperaShare and/or symphonyshare a few weeks back) and library media collections. Free beats cheap any day.
FWIW,
Dirk
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 16, 2009, 07:34:35 AM
And he may never be. I hate to be negative, Bill, but unless one of the remaining works you haven't heard turns you on for some reason, it doesn't appear at this point that you're ever going to get Mahler. I don't see anything wrong with the versions you own...nothing that would make another conductor's interpretation suddenly make sense of the music for you anyway. Like Dave and Karl, Mahler is a taste you may never acquire.
I don't see it like this at all. There is a reason that these famous composers are held up in high regard - it's just a case of becoming familiar with the composer's soundworld and what he/she is trying to express. Mozart used to bore me to tears, but now I have a lot more time for him. Mahler is continuing to be a very tough nut for me to crack, but there are portions that I love - the 9th and 10th for instance I think are fantastic. But the others usually still leave me a bit cold. (A GMGer once told me that the 5th was his least good symphony, Mahler having done everything in it better elsewhere. And I think I agree - at least from first impressions... Just doesn't hold my attention). Just persevere!
Quote from: Bogey on March 16, 2009, 03:56:02 AM
As some of you know, Mahler is not my favorite. However, I still continue to return to his music with fresh ears from time to time hoping the nut will crack. Maybe it is the recordings that I have or possibly the pieces I have are not the best starting points. So, please recommend to me one Mahler recording that you believe could help me to break through that I do not have listed. Appreciated.
Here are the works I have:
Symph. 1: Bernstein/NYPO (Sony)
Symph. 1: Slatkin/St. Louis
Symph. 1: Urbanek/Prague Fest. Orch.
Symph. 2: Slatkin/St. Louis
Symph. 2: Bernstein/NYPO (Sony)
Symph. 3: Bernstein/NYPO (Sony)
Symph. 4: Tennstedt/LPO
Symph. 7: Bernstein/NYPO (DG)
Symph. 9: HvK/BPO (DG live)
I think it's not Mahler that you don;t like -- just the hystrionically subjective overemotional interpretations you have chosen.
Try Boulez in 3 and 6; Abbado with the Lucerne Orcehestra in all of them that you can find; Bruno Walter in 5; Kondrashin and the Concertgebouw in 7; Rattle in 10; Solti in 8; Mengelberg in 4, Klemperer in Lied Von der Erde and 2.
Quote from: Mandryka on March 16, 2009, 09:28:11 AM
I think it's not Mahler that you don;t like -- just the hystrionically subjective overemotional interpretations you have chosen.
I was thinking along the same lines.
Maybe try some Mahler
au naturel by Kubelik, Walter or Haitink. :)
Q
Quote from: jwinter on March 16, 2009, 05:37:20 AM
I'd recommend Barbirolli for 5 & 6, both because they are excellent, and they would fill in a couple of your gaps.
*pounds fist on table, breaking it in half*
J is correct, Bill! $:)
I am Mahlerly (and generally orchestrally :'( ) challenged, too. I gave up (for now) after listening to no.2 a few times. His musical language does not speak to me, so I spend my time elsewhere. I may return to him one day, or I may not. Whenever I actively try to like a composer it has the adverse effect on me for some reason.
I was the same for Bach, Orbital. Stuck with it, asked questions like this, and now he is in my top 5.
Quote from: Bogey on March 16, 2009, 12:13:46 PM
I was the same for Bach, Orbital. Stuck with it, asked questions like this, and now he is in my top 5.
I wasn't trying to dissuade you from trying further by any means. What I mean is you would still have a perfect listening career even if Bach had never clicked.
If I don't enjoy a composer I don't believe in forcing him/her on myself just because I know he/she is a great composer. We will eventually meet if we are meant to ;D If not, I will not know what I have missed so it won't matter anyway.
Quote from: orbital on March 16, 2009, 12:35:16 PM
I wasn't trying to dissuade you from trying further by any means. What I mean is you would still have a perfect listening career even if Bach had never clicked.
If I don't enjoy a composer I don't believe in forcing him/her on myself just because I know he/she is a great composer. We will eventually meet if we are meant to ;D If not, I will not know what I have missed so it won't matter anyway.
Never took it that way, my friend. :) Just throwing out an example of a time that this way worked. Hasn't always though. And yes, plenty to be content with, that is for sure.
What works for me is considering a Mahler symphony to be a collection of tone poems. I listen to the movements I like. With the exception of the first symphony, I find I am generally inclined to listen to a movement or two at any given time. I think the 1st is the only one I really find I normally want to listen to in its entirety, sometimes the 6th or the 9th.
Too bad this one is NLA, it is a gem.
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/31/31/6abfd250fca07666c4c07010.L._AA240_.jpg)
Quote from: orbital on March 16, 2009, 12:35:16 PM
I wasn't trying to dissuade you from trying further by any means. What I mean is you would still have a perfect listening career even if Bach had never clicked.
A classical music listening career without Bach is inherently imperfect. ;D
Quote from: KammerNuss on March 16, 2009, 04:08:20 AM
Symphony 1 - 2nd mvt (Frere Jacques!!)
That would be the third movement. :D
Bill, I too have found Mahler a just about impossible nut to crack. I have tried listening to the Fifth Symphony (allegedly his most popular and accessible) several times, and have never to my recollection finished it. The Fifth opens with a powerful, powerful trumpet call which gets my hopes up and then the next 25 minutes or so bore me stiff every time. There's an "Adagietto" which is generally considered to be incredibly beautiful but even that missed the mark for me. My experiences with the Eighth and Ninth were also very negative (turned off 8 after three minutes).
What I see from the forum here is that Mahler is an intensely personal composer, one of the most so. He said that a symphony must encompass "the entire universe" - but it seems to me that a better description would have been "the entire soul of the artist." Each of these symphonies
is Mahler. They are intensely of himself - and so perhaps it should comfort you and I that, as we sometimes just cannot "connect" with a person we meet, or a friend or in-law or whatever, so it goes with these incredibly personal composers whose lives and personas and conflicts and stresses and sorrows and joys absolutely cannot be separated from their music. Someday the time may be right for you and I to appreciate Mahler. But with a composer like him, there's no rushing the matter.
For what it's worth, I do enjoy the First Symphony quite a bit. The pastoral opening movement (love the first few bars), the ridiculously fun dance that is the second movement, and most of all the funeral march, which is absolutely unforgettable and, to me, utterly hilarious. I wouldn't mind having a klezmer/polka band galumph into my funeral if they could make such lovely noises!
It would be a nice project for you to give each work a listen, just to see if there is any music you really connect with, anything that speaks to you as it does to some of these Mahler fans. (If so, tell me how to find it. ;D ) But if the result is nothing, or continued frustration, well ... maybe that's how it will have to be.
I guess I am agreeing with Sarge, but wanted to sound a little nicer about it by blaming the disconnect on Mahler instead of us. ;D
Quote from: Bulldog on March 16, 2009, 01:14:20 PM
A classical music listening career without Bach is inherently imperfect. ;D
orbital, you've done it now! I wouldn't expect a Christmas Card from Don this year. ;D
Quote from: Brian on March 16, 2009, 01:41:13 PM
The Fifth opens with a powerful, powerful trumpet call which gets my hopes up and then the next 25 minutes or so bore me stiff every time.
Now that surprises me. I always get lost in the 3rd movement (the 25 minute scherzo). The first movment is my favorite. The first is a grotesquely exaggerated funeral march, with laughably bombastic fanfares alternating with stereotypically glum, depressive marching. I love the growling low brass that enters (first horns, then trombones, then tuba, etc) with each cycle. The marching is interrupted in the center with a section which seems to suggest histrionic grief. Just a hoot, IMO. But this music needs a stunning performance. Surprisingly Karajan gets it best, IMO. The second movement is also not bad, I like the way the big chorale theme is finally able to prevail against all of the other goings on. Then, skip ahead, past the scherzo (except the 2 minute code) past the adagetto, past the tedius finale to the finale coda, where the chorale theme from the second movement blazes to the finish. Hits the spot!
Quote from: George on March 16, 2009, 01:42:19 PM
orbital, you've done it now! I wouldn't expect a Christmas Card from Don this year. ;D
Not being Christian, nobody gets a Christmas Card from Don. But I might send Orbital something he'll never forget (assuming he recovers).
Quote from: Bulldog on March 16, 2009, 01:58:13 PM
Not being Christian, nobody gets a Christmas Card from Don.
My apologies, just a figure of speech.
Quote from: George on March 16, 2009, 02:18:10 PM
My apologies, just a figure of speech.
Didn't bother me at all. I always loved Christmas - gave me two holidays to receive presents (and a few days off from school).
That reminds me how much I hated school - an absolute prison with screwed-up guards and brain dead co-workers. College was a big improvement.
Quote from: Bogey on March 16, 2009, 12:13:46 PM
I was the same for Bach, Orbital. Stuck with it, asked questions like this, and now he is in my top 5.
You and I would so get along, Bogey. I'm Mahlerly challenged, formerly Bach challenged but now cured. I have managed to enjoy Mahler's Titan Symphony though (Boulez recording).
Quote from: Bulldog on March 16, 2009, 01:58:13 PM
Not being Christian, nobody gets a Christmas Card from Don. But I might send Orbital something he'll never forget (assuming he recovers).
Allow me to send you a subscription to this to make things right 0:)
(http://www.theonion.com/content/files/images/onionmagazine_archive_168a.jpg)
There are some excellent DVDs on Mahler. Watch a couple of them. I am sure you know about Mahler's life. But watch the DVD which tells the stories with the music in the background and some performers talking. That can be a help sometimes. The video of Lenny rehearsing the 9th is also very good.
How about Russell's movie Mahler?
Firstly, I'll second the comment on the interpretations you've chosen, which consistently represent only one of very many approaches to Mahler's music - indeed, not necessarily the best one for you, or the most consistently satisfying in general.
Secondly, speaking as someone who feels for Mahler's music to an extent I don't feel for natural birdcalls(!), I can only say that Mahler is rambling: his symphonies are, to a very large extent, symphonically-proportioned structural/musical rants, and part of how I, at least, started listening to them was just hopping on the rant-train, and enjoying the sights until getting off at the other end.
Then I came to see the incredible overall structure, and experience the reason (again, IMO) Mahler's nine are integral, yet intensely inter-related symphonic statements. What he said about his notion of the symphony, that it (as I interpret it) "must be like [a] world", that "it must encompass everything" strikes me as ultimately the best way indeed to describe what Mahler wanted to do (and did) with all nine of his works, emotionally and structurally. And even all that having been said, in prime Mahlerian-rant fashion, the 3rd still took me a while! ;)
P.S.: This is why I try to stick to neutral comments on things like Mahler or Karajan: because inevitably, the above happens. :P
Quote from: Brian on March 16, 2009, 01:41:13 PM
That would be the third movement. :D
Bill, I too have found Mahler a just about impossible nut to crack. I have tried listening to the Fifth Symphony (allegedly his most popular and accessible) several times, and have never to my recollection finished it. The Fifth opens with a powerful, powerful trumpet call which gets my hopes up and then the next 25 minutes or so bore me stiff every time. There's an "Adagietto" which is generally considered to be incredibly beautiful but even that missed the mark for me. My experiences with the Eighth and Ninth were also very negative (turned off 8 after three minutes).
What I see from the forum here is that Mahler is an intensely personal composer, one of the most so. He said that a symphony must encompass "the entire universe" - but it seems to me that a better description would have been "the entire soul of the artist." Each of these symphonies is Mahler. They are intensely of himself - and so perhaps it should comfort you and I that, as we sometimes just cannot "connect" with a person we meet, or a friend or in-law or whatever, so it goes with these incredibly personal composers whose lives and personas and conflicts and stresses and sorrows and joys absolutely cannot be separated from their music. Someday the time may be right for you and I to appreciate Mahler. But with a composer like him, there's no rushing the matter.
For what it's worth, I do enjoy the First Symphony quite a bit. The pastoral opening movement (love the first few bars), the ridiculously fun dance that is the second movement, and most of all the funeral march, which is absolutely unforgettable and, to me, utterly hilarious. I wouldn't mind having a klezmer/polka band galumph into my funeral if they could make such lovely noises!
It would be a nice project for you to give each work a listen, just to see if there is any music you really connect with, anything that speaks to you as it does to some of these Mahler fans. (If so, tell me how to find it. ;D ) But if the result is nothing, or continued frustration, well ... maybe that's how it will have to be.
I guess I am agreeing with Sarge, but wanted to sound a little nicer about it by blaming the disconnect on Mahler instead of us. ;D
After I brought my mother home from the hospital a couple of years ago, I had a recording of Mahler's 9th on in the living room where she was reading. I went out to answer the phone and when I came back I found her rapt, with tears streaming down her face. She had never really listened to any Mahler before, despite my dad's incredible love for the composer. She looked at me, and told me that it was as if her whole life had been put to music. It was one freaky moment for me. I love it, but I've never had an epiphany moment like that with the 9th. That moment was with Eiji Oue's recording of the 6th for me. Sometimes, you need the right moment in time in order to get the most from Mahler -- or any other composer.
Brian, I don't think the 5th is that accessible. Parts of it, yes; but the whole? Not really. Probably the most accessible symphony is the 4th, which is also the shortest and the most Haydenesque in structure. The 4th is compact: the song driven distilled essence of Mahler. The Levi (Telarc) recording is a good start as it closely follows the score and it has Frederica von Stade singing. It's also usually very well priced at Amazon. Another nice (but more expensive) 4th is Michael Tilson Thomas's SACD recording. In fact, MTT's Mahler is probably the most accessible Mahler of any conductor's. He just has the most pleasing, silky, lustrous, sound. The rough edges are smoothed out so that they refract the music like a prism refracts light into pretty rainbows, rather than making it uncomfortably jagged. MTT's Mahler has it's detractors (too smooth, too tame, lacking edge, etc. are some of the criticisms I've read), but I'd recommend him for anyone just starting their Mahler journey.
The biggest problem appreciating Mahler for many people is the fact that they like their music very highly organized and classically structured, as Bach, Mozart and Beethoven are. Mahler is also organized, but the organization is much more hidden. If you just think of the music as a stroll through a garden landscaped in the English (informal, naturalistic) manner where you suddenly find patches of wild flowers and stands of trees at one turn and then find a sweeping vista at another rather than a stroll through a formal French garden with all of the greenery and flowers in their own discrete plots, it becomes more comprehensible. In fact, Mahler is probably the most visual composer to me of all.
Quote from: Bunny on March 17, 2009, 09:37:41 AM
After I brought my mother home from the hospital a couple of years ago, I had a recording of Mahler's 9th on in the living room where she was reading. I went out to answer the phone and when I came back I found her rapt, with tears streaming down her face. She had never really listened to any Mahler before, despite my dad's incredible love for the composer. She looked at me, and told me that it was as if her whole life had been put to music. It was one freaky moment for me. I love it, but I've never had an epiphany moment like that with the 9th. That moment was with Eiji Oue's recording of the 6th for me. Sometimes, you need the right moment in time in order to get the most from Mahler -- or any other composer.
Incredible story Bunny, and one I will not soon forget. Maybe, like others have shared, that timing is everything with some composers.
Quote from: Bunny on March 17, 2009, 09:37:41 AM
If you just think of the music as a stroll through a garden landscaped in the English (informal, naturalistic) manner where you suddenly find patches of wild flowers and stands of trees at one turn and then find a sweeping vista at another rather than a stroll through a formal French garden with all of the greenery and flowers in their own discrete plots, it becomes more comprehensible. In fact, Mahler is probably the most visual composer to me of all.
My compliments on a superbly portrayed representation on 'the Mahler effect.' I hope the above gets well quoted, because it is exactly the visual representation I too get, so I guess most Mahler boffins experience the same 'effect.'
Excellent post.
Quote from: John on March 17, 2009, 06:01:03 PM
My compliments on a superbly portrayed representation on 'the Mahler effect.' I hope the above gets well quoted, because it is exactly the visual representation I too get, so I guess most Mahler boffins experience the same 'effect.'
Excellent post.
Mahler as a stroll is also a good metaphor for my impression, of Symphony 5, third movement (scherzo). It's like strolling down the breakfast cereal isle in the worlds biggest supermarket. There is row upon row upon row of boxes, brightly colored, whose contents are almost indistinguishable. Corn flakes, unsweetened corn flakes, frosted corn flakes, oat flakes, organic corn flakes, organic toasted corn flakes, wheat flakes, multi-grain flakes. In Mahler, it is that same dance tune, first flute with horn, then oboe with horn at the dominant, then violins with basoon at the sub-dominant, then viola with english horn at the relative minor, then violins with trombone and trumpet at the sub-mediant, then clarinet with oboe and cello at the sub dominant again, then... How many different combinations are there? We'll find out before it's done!
Quote from: nut-job on March 16, 2009, 12:45:35 PM
What works for me is considering a Mahler symphony to be a collection of tone poems. I listen to the movements I like. With the exception of the first symphony, I find I am generally inclined to listen to a movement or two at any given time. I think the 1st is the only one I really find I normally want to listen to in its entirety, sometimes the 6th or the 9th.
Too bad this one is NLA, it is a gem.
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/31/31/6abfd250fca07666c4c07010.L._AA240_.jpg)
Very strange, as no 1 is the one I find the least convincing as a symphony, consisting of (what I hear as) a series of relatively unrelated movements. Very enjoyable, but not really a symphony. I clearly find nr 4 the most conventionally symphonic of his symphonies, and nr 2, 5 , 6, despite their unconventional traits, clearly symphonic in the message they convey and what I feel is a very consistent overall structure/architecture.
Bunny, thank you for that beautiful post.
Quote from: Renfield on March 17, 2009, 01:46:54 AM
Mahler is rambling: his symphonies are, to a very large extent, symphonically-proportioned structural/musical rants, and part of how I, at least, started listening to them was just hopping on the rant-train, and enjoying the sights until getting off at the other end.
I lament that my phrasing was not as catchy as the more successful garden metaphor in
Bunny's post, but it's interesting that the core view isn't dissimilar; nor with
nut-job's post, only he's essentially describing it from the perspective of someone less inclined to buy into it. :)
Just making a note. And is there any devoted Mahlerian here who, on the other hand, has a fundamentally different approach to the symphonies?
Quote from: Renfield on March 18, 2009, 08:12:42 PM
...a fundamentally different approach to the symphonies?
Mahler, the opera conductor, wrote operatic symphonies.
Quote from: DavidRoss on March 19, 2009, 04:51:06 AM
Mahler, the opera conductor, wrote operatic symphonies.
I agree entirely, and made a similar comment on a thread somewhere contrasting Mahler with Bruckner. Mahler symphonies are essentially dramatic rather than "symphonic."
I too faced a few difficulties with Mahler's symphonies when I first heard them 3 years ago. This may sounds strange as I am an ardent Wagnerian and love music that is highly emotional and overly dramatic. Part of the problem was that I approached Mahler through the Solti symphony cycle with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. I found the interpretation far too abrasive for my taste but then I picked this very affordable set up:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51HAQ5TPK1L._SS400_.jpg)
and I started falling in love with Mahler. Bertini brings out the subtle nuances in Mahler's music and his gentle (in contrast to Solti's) interpretation of Mahler's symphonies makes them very approachable. I would also like to mention that I found it helpfull to read up on these symphonies before listening to them. It took some effort but I got to appreciate Mahler over the past year and half. My favorite symphony is the 2nd (Resurrection), I also love the 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 9th. The 8th is my least favorite followed by the 7th and 6th.
marvin
Quote from: marvinbrown on March 19, 2009, 07:25:41 AM
... as I am an ardent Wagnerian and love music that is highly emotional and overly dramatic.
And let us not forget, overly long. 0:)
;)
Quote from: Mn Dave on March 19, 2009, 07:27:16 AM
And let us not forget, overly long. 0:)
;)
Yes that too 0:). Let's not forget that Mahler was very much influenced by Wagner. What I find wonderfull is how Mahler marries the Wagnerian "style" with his ethnically Bohemian roots.
marvin
Quote from: Mn Dave on March 19, 2009, 07:27:16 AM
And let us not forget, overly long. 0:)
Heresy! >:( Every one of The Master's utterances shines with unrivaled beauty and meaning that few mortals have the genius to appreciate! Even the briefest passing of The Master's intestinal gas is a masterpiece to be treasured; true acolytes regret only that The Master did not bless us with more of them, and of even longer duration.
BTW, as an inexpensive way to acquire fine performances of the complete cycle, Bertini's set is hard to beat (as has oft been noted around these parts), and thus merits special consideration by newbies. And, as Marvin notes, reading about the symphonies in addition to listening to them is a good idea. Having a sense of the underlying program helps tremendously in sorting out the dramatic thrust of Herr Mahler's work, especially in the longer, more apparently ramblingly indulgent movements. I found this especially helpful with the third and the eighth. Consideration of the texts helps quite a bit, too.
And speaking of the eighth, I never cared for it at all until after I heard Kent Nagano's take on it. I'm still waiting for the MTT/SFS recording from the performance last November with the mezzo Katarina Karnéus, whose disc of Sibelius songs I like very much. When released it will wrap up their terrific cycle...unless there are plans to include the 10th (and, perhaps, some other song cycles?) in the future.
Quote from: marvinbrown on March 19, 2009, 07:25:41 AM
The 8th is my least favorite followed by the 7th and 6th.
marvin
That really surprises me, Marvin, considering your love of Wagnerian opera. I've always thought of Mahler 8 as the opera he never wrote...and that's the way I listen to it, especially Part II. It's his Faust opera.
Sarge
Quote from: DavidRoss on March 19, 2009, 08:00:34 AM
Heresy! >:( Every one of The Master's utterances shines with unrivaled beauty and meaning that few mortals have the genius to appreciate! Even the briefest passing of The Master's intestinal gas is a masterpiece to be treasured; true acolytes regret only that The Master did not bless us with more of them, and of even longer duration.
;D :D ;D
I know you're having fun wth us devoted Mahlerites, and I don't mind ;) But I once again challenge you, or anyone here, to point out exactly where and in each symphony you would make these allegedly needed and desireable cuts so that the ADDed among us could appreciate Mahler too ;D I've never known anyone who could do that...i.e., second guess Mahler's intent and structural decisions and create a better symphony. You know, Bruckner's friends thought they could do that with his music, and they just ended up butchering it.
Sarge
Quote from: nut-job on March 18, 2009, 10:45:22 AM
Mahler as a stroll is also a good metaphor for my impression, of Symphony 5, third movement (scherzo). It's like strolling down the breakfast cereal isle in the worlds biggest supermarket. There is row upon row upon row of boxes, brightly colored, whose contents are almost indistinguishable. Corn flakes, unsweetened corn flakes, frosted corn flakes, oat flakes, organic corn flakes, organic toasted corn flakes, wheat flakes, multi-grain flakes. In Mahler, it is that same dance tune, first flute with horn, then oboe with horn at the dominant, then violins with basoon at the sub-dominant, then viola with english horn at the relative minor, then violins with trombone and trumpet at the sub-mediant, then clarinet with oboe and cello at the sub dominant again, then... How many different combinations are there? We'll find out before it's done!
Aha! Mahler as interpreted by Andy Warhol. And I am a great admirer of Andy's work. Only consider how his portraits, done in variations of colors explore the image as well as the psyche of the subject. Mahler was indeed ahead of his time.
Where you find multicolored boxes of numerous flaked cereals competing for attention, I find roses, daisies, daffodils, irises, all of different hues twining through a garden, appearing between rock formations, at the side of a pond, then near some strange shrubs with the colors and textures always shifting.
The wonderful thing is how the imagination seems to fire up myriad images as you listen. Depending on the time or circumstances, I find myself wandering through Hansel and Gretel's woods, or Julie Andrews' mountains as she celebrates, "The hills are alive with the sound of music..."
(http://puffin.creighton.edu/museums/archive/7_abarnett/marilyn.jpg)
Quote from: DavidRoss on March 19, 2009, 08:00:34 AM
And speaking of the eighth, I never cared for it at all until after I heard Kent Nagano's take on it. I'm still waiting for the MTT/SFS recording from the performance last November with the mezzo Katarina Karnéus, whose disc of Sibelius songs I like very much. When released it will wrap up their terrific cycle...unless there are plans to include the 10th (and, perhaps, some other song cycles?) in the future.
I was present for a performance of Mahler 10th Adagio at Davies Hall, and in view of the array of microphones rigged above the stage I am sure they are planning to include it in the cycle (but not the entire reconstructed symphony).
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 19, 2009, 08:26:04 AM
I know you're having fun wth us devoted Mahlerites, and I don't mind ;) But I once again challenge you, or anyone here, to point out exactly where and in each symphony you would make these allegedly needed and desireable cuts so that the ADDed among us could appreciate Mahler too ;D I've never known anyone who could do that...i.e., second guess Mahler's intent and structural decisions and create a better symphony. You know, Bruckner's friends thought they could do that with his music, and they just ended up butchering it.
Actually, Sarge, I'm poking fun at
Wagner devotees, not Mahler fans. I remind you again that Mahler is one of my faves, despite my opinion that his work generally suffers from his failure to be as self-critical as Mozart or Beethoven or Brahms or Sibelius--to name four other faves whose obsessive craftsmanship better served the genius of their inspiration, according to
my decidedly Modernist aesthetic sensibilities.
Even were I competent to edit his symphonies as you suggest, I still wouldn't see the point in doing it. I doubt that there's any market that would repay the effort required, and I've certainly better things to do with my limited time than to undertake such a massive and probably thankless project for no reason other than to try to prove a point. The same with Bruckner. Just because well-intentioned but incompetent editors "butchered" some of Bruckner's work (to try to make it more appealing even in an age that celebrated such "artistically" indulgent excess) does not mean that it could not have been improved with competent editing. What constitutes "improved" is, of course, a matter of opinion, and there is no Supreme Court to which our judgment can be appealed. It would be nice if each of us were able to articulate the "reasons" for our preferences, however such reasons are virtually always post facto explanations of decisions that are really made intuitively, not logically, and there are almost no areas of human endeavor less susceptible to rational disposition than aesthetics. (One almost wonders whether pheromones might play a role!)
Quote from: nut-job on March 19, 2009, 09:05:28 AM
I was present for a performance of Mahler 10th Adagio at Davies Hall, and in view of the array of microphones rigged above the stage I am sure they are planning to include it in the cycle (but not the entire reconstructed symphony).
Yeah, but I'm still waiting for word of release of the similarly recorded Schuman VC with Gil Shaham 3 or 4 years ago. However, the adagio would make an ideal filler for the second disc when they finally issue the 8th. Let's keep our fingers crossed.
BTW, how did you like that performance?
Quote from: DavidRoss on March 19, 2009, 09:08:02 AM
Actually, Sarge, I'm poking fun at Wagner devotees, not Mahler fans.
Ah, yes, I see that now...your comment connected back to MN's back to Marvin's. I've got a bad cold: apparently my mind is as stuffed and nonfunctioning as my nose :D
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 19, 2009, 09:21:49 AM
Ah, yes, I see that now...your comment connected back to MN's back to Marvin's. I've got a bad cold: apparently my mind is as stuffed and nonfunctioning as my nose :D
Sarge
Get well soon!
Quote from: George on March 19, 2009, 09:23:56 AM
Get well soon!
Thanks, George. The worst part is, we're dying to try Andy's three cheese chicken but we've put it off, first because Mrs. Rock was sick, and now me. We have been enjoying a damn fine chicken soup though 8)
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 19, 2009, 09:30:45 AM
Thanks, George. The worst part is, we're dying to try Andy's three cheese chicken but we've put it off, first because Mrs. Rock was sick, and now me. We have been enjoying a damn fine chicken soup though 8)
Sarge
Yeah, I am always craving foods that I can't have when I am sick. I'm a complete baby when I am sick too. :-\
Mmmh? There's nothing operatic about the Mahler symphonies. They are just very large tone poems.
Quote from: DavidRoss on March 19, 2009, 09:12:32 AM
BTW, how did you like that performance?
The performance was excellent. I was there the first evening and the members of the orchestra were obviously excited. Of course the final cut will be patched together from the 3 or 4 performances they did that week, so when I get the recording there will be no telling if I am hearing the same thing I heard live.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on March 19, 2009, 10:24:32 AM
Mmmh? There's nothing operatic about the Mahler symphonies. They are just very large tone poems.
Obvious the tinge of genius, or even moderate perceptiveness, eludes you. 0:)
Quote from: nut-job on March 19, 2009, 10:25:42 AM
Obvious the tinge of genius, or even moderate perceptiveness, eludes you. 0:)
Maybe, but inquiring minds would like know why is it that Mahler, the opera conductor who wrote operatic symphonies never bothered to write an actual opera.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on March 19, 2009, 10:29:46 AM
Maybe, but inquiring minds would like know why is it that Mahler, the opera conductor who wrote operatic symphonies never bothered to write an actual opera.
I don't think the fact that he
conducted operas has much to do with it, in particular. I find his mode of expression essentially dramatic rather than symphonic.
I have never had any problems with Mahler; his music"clicked" with me when I was just a teenager nearly 40 years ago. Ditto Bruckner. I love both composers; eachis great in his own way.
For Mahler, I would suggest listening to his song cycles such as Des Knaben Wunderhorn,Songs of a Wayfarer and Kindertotenlieder,as well as the early Cantata Das Klagende Lied(Song of Lamentation) first before you plunge wholesale into the symphonies. These are mercifully short,and contain the germ of his symphonies,which sometimes quote these songs.
I've always found that when you give complex works repeated hearings, what initially seems diffuse,incoherent and chaotic often becomes logical and inevitable. This is true of many composers,not just Mahler. The old saying "familiarity breeds contempt" does not apply to classical music. In fact,it's exactly the opposite! Familiarity increases enjoyment !
I have the Solti set with the CSO of the Mahler symphonies, and to me they're not"abrasive", but exhilerating! IMHO, the recordings of 5,7,and 8 have never been surpassed.
But Bernstein's Mahler is also great if not for every one, and there are great Mahler recordings by the likes of Abbado,Tennstedt, Mehta,Maazel,
Rattle, Klemperer,Mitropoulos,Walter and many other eminent conductors. There are Mahler interpretations for every one's taste,and often vastly different. No conductor has a monopoly on the one"right" way to do Mahler.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 19, 2009, 08:16:57 AM
That really surprises me, Marvin, considering your love of Wagnerian opera. I've always thought of Mahler 8 as the opera he never wrote...and that's the way I listen to it, especially Part II. It's his Faust opera.
Sarge
That's part of my problem
Sarge, I can not reconcile Part I with Part II, if that is the intent?? It seems that the two have been juxtaposed next to each other and have nothing to do with one another. Perhaps continuity in theme was the intent, I do not know and I am not sure, but musically I find myself struggling to make sense of it all. I must be missing something here, I know I am. Maybe in time I will learn to appreciate it more.
marvin
Quote from: Superhorn on March 19, 2009, 12:29:44 PM
I have the Solti set with the CSO of the Mahler symphonies, and to me they're not"abrasive", but exhilerating! IMHO, the recordings of 5,7,and 8 have never been surpassed.
I have often read that Solti's interpretation can be characterized as "Mahler on steroids"!! Personally I can see/hear that Solti wanted Mahler's music to hit the listener with force, brutal force! But I also appreciate the warmth in the Bertini set. Warmth that to my ears is missing from the Solti set. Perhaps there is no perfect interpretation to Mahler's titanic (pun intended ;)) symphonies but from my experience I would not be inclined to recommend the Solti set to someone who is "Mahlerly challenged". To each his own I guess :-\.
PS: someday I would like to hear Bernstein's take on these symphonies, but for now I am happy with the 2 contrasting sets (Solti & Bertini) that are in my collection.
marvin
Quote from: DavidRoss on March 19, 2009, 04:51:06 AM
Mahler, the opera conductor, wrote operatic symphonies.
Certainly. (That is: I agree.) But does that indicate a fundamentally different approach? My term, at least, was "rant", inherently a dramatic act.
Note that I am not trying to play devil's advocate, here; nor is my own conception of Mahler's works exhausted by "symphonically-proportioned rants". I'm just (still) wondering if there is anyone who
enjoys the symphonies approaching them from the general viewpoint of, say, a classicist.
Quote from: Renfield on March 20, 2009, 06:48:45 PM
I'm just (still) wondering if there is anyone who enjoys the symphonies approaching them from the general viewpoint of, say, a classicist.
Of course, one of the elements that mark the genius of Mahler is that his works can withstand radically different approaches and not end up looking the worst for it. That said, i think it has to be accepted that he was a fundamentally dramatic composer, the same way Beethoven was a fundamentally heroic one. It's just the way it is.
Quote from: Renfield on March 20, 2009, 06:48:45 PM
Certainly. (That is: I agree.) But does that indicate a fundamentally different approach? My term, at least, was "rant", inherently a dramatic act.
Note that I am not trying to play devil's advocate, here; nor is my own conception of Mahler's works exhausted by "symphonically-proportioned rants". I'm just (still) wondering if there is anyone who enjoys the symphonies approaching them from the general viewpoint of, say, a classicist.
To me, Mahler's symphonies are models of clarity, with logical, relatively easy-to-follow structures that just happen to be quite large. While his symphonies' style and length obviously won't appeal to all, they're not hard works, just sophisticated and grandiose in scale. To the poster at the beginning of the thread who said that Mahler is a bunch of boring stretches punctuated by the good bits, I'd say it's the reverse: Mahler was a gifted tunesmith and orchestrator, with beautiful themes and interesting moments fairly falling over each other in their superabundance.
I'll second the posters who recommend the Solti/CSO set: it's not the final word in these works, but overall darn good. The stereotype of Solti as a conductor who indiscriminately whips up excitement at the expense of relaxed beauty or subtlety is nonsense, like saying every Karajan performance is slick and soulless. And it's to Solti's great credit that he does indeed whip up excitement when called for. Classical music shouldn't sound geriatric and impotent--certainly not the exuberant, tension-laden (some say "neurotic") works of Mahler.
To me, Solti's Mahler is essentially American: Bigger, Faster, Louder equals better! Yay!
I like my Mahler done with more subtlety and poetry than that, thank you very much. For a beginner, I would recommend the Kubelik set on DG.
Quote from: imperfection on March 22, 2009, 09:40:51 PM
the Kubelik set on DG.
Indeed!
Solti's cycle I might hear one day for the sake of curiosity, but at this point, it's the Sinopoli that is next on my list for eventual purchase.
Quote from: imperfection on March 22, 2009, 09:40:51 PM
To me, Solti's Mahler is essentially American: Bigger, Faster, Louder equals better! Yay!
I like my Mahler done with more subtlety and poetry than that, thank you very much. For a beginner, I would recommend the Kubelik set on DG.
Solti was Hungarian, wasn't he? Isn't Bernstein the American conductor usually associated with Mahler? Any other bigoted stereotypes you'd like to share with us today?
Kubelik's is among my own faves, but it's a far more costly commitment for one just dipping his toes than several other cycles of merit (i.e. Bertini, Bernstein/NYPO, Chailly, Tennstedt).
Quote from: DavidRoss on March 23, 2009, 06:43:08 AM
Solti was Hungarian, wasn't he?
Yep, and Solti took his "turbo" approach with him no matter where on the planet he conducted, not just in Chicago.
Quote from: Renfield on March 23, 2009, 04:43:40 AM
Indeed!
Solti's cycle I might hear one day for the sake of curiosity, but at this point, it's the Sinopoli that is next on my list for eventual purchase.
Oh you haven't heard the Solti cycle? You should, because I thought it was really different from all the other Mahler cycles. Try the 5th first to get a taste of the extremely thrilling but rushed and undernourished Solti Mahler.
Quote from: DavidRoss on March 23, 2009, 06:43:08 AM
Solti was Hungarian, wasn't he? Isn't Bernstein the American conductor usually associated with Mahler? Any other bigoted stereotypes you'd like to share with us today?
Kubelik's is among my own faves, but it's a far more costly commitment for one just dipping his toes than several other cycles of merit (i.e. Bertini, Bernstein/NYPO, Chailly, Tennstedt).
I never said Solti was American. I said his Mahler was "American". Please try to read carefully.
Quote from: imperfection on March 23, 2009, 06:19:00 PM
I never said Solti was American. I said his Mahler was "American". Please try to read carefully.
I know exactly what you said. My comment should not prove too subtle for you if you try to read it carefully.
Quote from: DavidRoss on March 23, 2009, 06:25:36 PM
I know exactly what you said. My comment should not prove too subtle for you if you try to read it carefully.
I don't think Bernstein share any of Solti's qualities in interpreting Mahler which made me sick. Even though both could be considered "heavy-handed" conductors in Mahler, Bernstein pays much attention to detail and shapes every phrase and fine detail with care (sometimes with
too much care, hence the excessive emotionalism), as opposed to Solti, who like I said, lets the orchestra blare and tear through Mahler's score which consists of extremely complex details that should definitely not be ignored in order to bring out a coherent and convincing performance. Why Solti's Mahler appeal to many is because it is like fast food. Tastes good for the time you are eating it due to its very strong and distinctive flavors, but in the long run fails to endure thoughtful repeated listening and in-depth analysis because it simply hasn't much nutritious value, or musical substance in this case.
I hope you will understand my metaphor, whether you agree with it or not.
Quote from: imperfection on March 23, 2009, 06:19:00 PM
I never said Solti was American. I said his Mahler was "American". Please try to read carefully.
Quote from: imperfection on March 23, 2009, 06:49:32 PM
I don't think Bernstein share any of Solti's qualities in interpreting Mahler which made me sick. Even though both could be considered "heavy-handed" conductors in Mahler, Bernstein pays much attention to detail and shapes every phrase and fine detail with care (sometimes with too much care, hence the excessive emotionalism), as opposed to Solti, who like I said, lets the orchestra blare and tear through Mahler's score which consists of extremely complex details that should definitely not be ignored in order to bring out a coherent and convincing performance. Why Solti's Mahler appeal to many is because it is like fast food. Tastes good for the time you are eating it due to its very strong and distinctive flavors, but in the long run fails to endure thoughtful repeated listening and in-depth analysis because it simply hasn't much nutritious value, or musical substance in this case.
I hope you will understand my metaphor, whether you agree with it or not.
First, I have to take exception to your terming something you feel is so inferior as being "American." You don't need to insult America and Americans to describe why you don't care for Solti. He had his own idiosyncratic style which stayed fairly constant whether he was conducting the London Symphony Orchestra or the Chicago Symphony Orchestra.
That said, I find there are times when I crave Solti's particular brand of Mahler. His Mahler is rollercoaster Mahler. It takes you up to the heights, and then it drops you down into the depths. It pulls you out again and spins you around until you think you are going to come out of your seat, and plunge to your death as you skirt the edge of a cliff. But then, like magic, it always takes you safely home. It's edge of the seat, purely visceral music. Just as I wouldn't want to ride a roller coaster every day of my life on the way to work, there are times when I crave a thrilling ride. Sometimes when the world seems to be as flat and boring as it is threatening, a ride on Solti's Mahler coaster is a good thing.
Quote from: Bunny on March 23, 2009, 07:56:57 PM
First, I have to take exception to your terming something you feel is so inferior as being "American." You don't need to insult America and Americans to describe why you don't care for Solti. He had his own idiosyncratic style which stayed fairly constant whether he was conducting the London Symphony Orchestra or the Chicago Symphony Orchestra.
That said, I find there are times when I crave Solti's particular brand of Mahler. His Mahler is rollercoaster Mahler. It takes you up to the heights, and then it drops you down into the depths. It pulls you out again and spins you around until you think you are going to come out of your seat, and plunge to your death as you skirt the edge of a cliff. But then, like magic, it always takes you safely home. It's edge of the seat, purely visceral music. Just as I wouldn't want to ride a roller coaster every day of my life on the way to work, there are times when I crave a thrilling ride. Sometimes when the world seems to be as flat and boring as it is threatening, a ride on Solti's Mahler coaster is a good thing.
In no way I was trying to insult America or Americans. I was trying to illustrate how Solti's Mahler sound like, that's all. Which I don't like. "Bigger, Faster, Louder" are adjectives that spring to many others' minds when Solti's Mahler (or indeed, anything conducted by him) is mentioned, so it's not even just my opinion. Apparently many find him to be overly driven and careless of details as well.
Solti's first recording of the 2nd symphony with the LSO is near the very top of a very high pile. He is helped by Heather Harper and Helen Watts who are among the best soloists who have graced any recording. Highly recommended. And now all 80:53 has been squeezed onto a single CD in the Decca Originals series.
Solti's LSO recordings of the 1st and 9th symphonies are also among my favourites.
Give them a try.
Quote from: imperfection on March 23, 2009, 08:10:07 PM
In no way I was trying to insult America or Americans.
Sure you were! But go right ahead. It's a popular pastime, enjoyed the world over--
especially in America, where half the citizens seem to feel their day's not complete without insulting America and Americans, preferably on national TV, if possible. You said it, you got called on it, you're not man enough to admit it...end of story!
Quote from: Salome on March 23, 2009, 10:04:52 PM
Solti's first recording of the 2nd symphony with the LSO is near the very top of a very high pile. He is helped by Heather Harper and Helen Watts who are among the best soloists who have graced any recording. Highly recommended. And now all 80:53 has been squeezed onto a single CD in the Decca Originals series.
Solti's LSO recordings of the 1st and 9th symphonies are also among my favourites.
Give them a try.
Salome--thanks for the recommendation. Haven't seen you around here before. Welcome to GMG. (What's a nice girl like you....) Given your screen name, I trust you're a fan of R. Strauss...?
Quote from: DavidRoss on March 24, 2009, 01:07:47 AM
Sure you were! But go right ahead. It's a popular pastime, enjoyed the world over--especially in America, where half the citizens seem to feel their day's not complete without insulting America and Americans, preferably on national TV, if possible.
Speaking as an American, I don't feel at all insulted by imperfection's comment, facile and generalized though it was. Some of us need to chill I think 8)
Quote from: Spitvalve on March 24, 2009, 01:44:11 AM
Speaking as an American, I don't feel at all insulted by imperfection's comment, facile and generalized though it was. Some of us need to chill I think 8)
I don't feel insulted by it, either. But the intent was transparent and his denials are ironic. If you think I'm overheated then perhaps my wryly amused tone is not coming through to you. (Gosh, I hope you didn't misunderstand and feel offended by my flattering comment regarding the photo you posted elsewhere? Sorry if that's the case, but you're a remarkably good-looking guy and just have to suffer through life surrounded by hordes of adoring females.)
Now, have you heard Solti's Mahler, particularly the issue recommended by Salome? How do you think it compares to his Chicago Mahler? Would or wouldn't you recommend it to our Mahler-challenged friends--especially the OP, Bill--and if not, then might you have other recommendations? I've enjoyed your contributions on a variety of subjects here--witty, well-informed, thoughtful--and suspect that your views on Mahler recordings will prove interesting and helpful.
Quote from: DavidRoss on March 24, 2009, 02:32:06 AM
I don't feel insulted by it, either. But the intent was transparent and his denials are ironic. If you think I'm overheated then perhaps my wryly amused tone is not coming through to you.
Actually David, it didn't come through, sorry about that -
tone often doesn't register on the Internet...
Quote(Gosh, I hope you didn't misunderstand and feel offended by my flattering comment regarding the photo you posted elsewhere?
Not at all - actually I think the photo flatters me more than you do :)
But to return to imperfection's comment for a moment - I would have invited him to elaborate on it, because American orchestras
do tend to sound brighter, more aggressive, more brass-heavy, and less "blended" than their European counterparts. I think it's legitimate to take these things into account.
QuoteNow, have you heard Solti's Mahler, particularly the issue recommended by Salome? How do you think it compares to his Chicago Mahler? Would or wouldn't you recommend it to our Mahler-challenged friends--especially the OP, Bill--and if not, then might you have other recommendations? I've enjoyed your contributions on a variety of subjects here--witty, well-informed, thoughtful--and suspect that your views on Mahler recordings will prove interesting and helpful.
I have heard a bunch of Solti Mahler recordings (though in some cases it's been a while). I think he does better in the more outwardly spectacular symphonies (2, 5, 6, 8 ). The CSO 2nd does suffer somewhat from early digital glare, but I love the intensity of it, especially in the 1st mvt, which is appropriately savage. I haven't heard the LSO version to compare it with. I actually prefer Solti's 6th to the similar conception of Bernstein in his NYPO recording, if only because of the CSO's awesome playing.
Quote from: imperfection on March 23, 2009, 06:49:32 PM
I don't think Bernstein share any of Solti's qualities in interpreting Mahler which made me sick. Even though both could be considered "heavy-handed" conductors in Mahler, Bernstein pays much attention to detail and shapes every phrase and fine detail with care (sometimes with too much care, hence the excessive emotionalism), as opposed to Solti, who like I said, lets the orchestra blare and tear through Mahler's score which consists of extremely complex details that should definitely not be ignored in order to bring out a coherent and convincing performance. Why Solti's Mahler appeal to many is because it is like fast food. Tastes good for the time you are eating it due to its very strong and distinctive flavors, but in the long run fails to endure thoughtful repeated listening and in-depth analysis because it simply hasn't much nutritious value, or musical substance in this case.
I hope you will understand my metaphor, whether you agree with it or not.
I have to disagree. I've been listening with great pleasure to Solti's CSO set for about 15 years now (though I certainly appreciate other approaches, too).
Quote from: imperfection on March 23, 2009, 08:10:07 PM
In no way I was trying to insult America or Americans. I was trying to illustrate how Solti's Mahler sound like, that's all. Which I don't like. "Bigger, Faster, Louder" are adjectives that spring to many others' minds when Solti's Mahler (or indeed, anything conducted by him) is mentioned, so it's not even just my opinion. Apparently many find him to be overly driven and careless of details as well.
::)
Your meaning was very clear. You characterized the qualities of "Bigger, Faster,
Louder" as intrinsically "American" and then went on to say that such qualities are the hallmarks of inferior products such as "fast food." Along with being "Bigger, Faster, Louder" and lacking in "nutritious value" do you also think that Americans are stupid?
Give it up. At this point your face is covered with Egg MacMuffin and you are dining on the toes of the foot in your mouth. >:D
Btw, I prefer Solti's Mahler 4th to Rattle's. For that matter I'd rather listen to just about any of Solti's Mahler rather than Abbado's, and Solti is far from my favorite conductor.
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/e2/b7/c53392c008a06432dd0c1010.L.jpg)
I have Solti's Mahler set, and I like it but have the same impression of it that I have of most of Solti's work. If you compare any given passage from Solti and another conductor you will often conclude that Solti sounds "better." For instance, if I compare one of the orchestral interludes from Wagner's Ring as recorded by Solti and Karajan I invariably decide Solti is more impressive. But if I listen to the entire thing I have a higher sense of satisfaction from Karajan because he is shaping each passage to work in its own context. Maybe something needs to be held back so that the following passage has the proper impact.
Some of Solti's Mahler can impress me this way. One thing that comes to mind is the first movement of Mahler 6. Solti's recording is uniformly harsh. Karajan cultivates a sort of dark, morose character from which brutal harshness lashes out.
Quote from: nut-job on March 24, 2009, 07:27:53 AM
a sort of dark, morose character from which brutal harshness lashes out.
I think that's the key to my own doubts about Solti, whose LSO Mahler I
have heard: the playing is great, the conception consistent, but the music is, at the end of the day, just sitting there on record, 'doing its thing'. The only times it
enters my world, as the listener - and I do hope I'll be forgiven for being a little abstract on this - is when it's fast and thrilling; and it's the excitement,
qua excitement, that involves me then.
Make no mistake, I do like the two Solti LSO Mahler discs. But I like them for listening to symphonic-Mahler-as-concerto-for-orchestra. :)
(Hence my not intending to purchase the CSO cycle before I've heard the more musically interesting Sinopoli, which was what I was somewhat-obscurely implying with my comment, previously.)
Quote from: Renfield on March 24, 2009, 08:25:11 AMMake no mistake, I do like the two Solti LSO Mahler discs. But I like them for listening to symphonic-Mahler-as-concerto-for-orchestra. :)
Ah! For some of us that's a positive recommendation, then, as the dramatic interplay between single instruments or groups of instruments and the orchestra as a whole is a consistent and appealing feature of Mahler's work. It's so beguilingly...
operatic!
Quote from: DavidRoss on March 24, 2009, 09:15:07 AM
Ah! For some of us that's a positive recommendation, then, as the dramatic interplay between single instruments or groups of instruments and the orchestra as a whole is a consistent and appealing feature of Mahler's work. It's so beguilingly...operatic!
Well, under that prism, Solti is urgently recommendable indeed; and the beautiful playing he gets from the LSO is itself nothing to scoff at.
Quote from: DavidRoss on March 24, 2009, 09:15:07 AM
Ah! For some of us that's a positive recommendation, then, as the dramatic interplay between single instruments or groups of instruments and the orchestra as a whole is a consistent and appealing feature of Mahler's work. It's so beguilingly...operatic!
Well, that's why it's nice that there is choice. For me Solti is a good alternate because of that factor, but I normally wouldn't go to him as my primary source.
Based on all of the above, I decided to reload the Solti CSO cycle back into ye olde iPod, and give it another whirl. This morning I listened to the Chicago 2nd (haven't heard the London). It's an exciting performance, it zips along, and the playing is formidable, but.... I dunno, it still just leaves me cold. I get no sense of Mahler's gorgeous orchestration from Solti -- the music feels too simple somehow, he gets across the basic argument masterfully but there's no emotional pull, none of that Viennese nostalgic romanticism that says Mahler to me.
I decided to follow it up with Barbirolli's stereo Stuttgart 2nd for comparison. I am hearing it as I type, and at only about 5 minutes in I am luxuriating in all that Solti misses. The Chicago orchestra plays rings around these fellows, but there is a dark, visceral quality here that immediately grabs me. The ensemble isn't as tight, but there are lovely textures here that Solti overlooks. And I get a much stronger sense of taking a musical/emotional/spiritual journey, that the beautiful sounds that Mahler and Barbirolli create are leading somewhere, and I am drawn to follow. I'm by no means saying that Barbirolli's is the best 2nd I've ever heard, but for me the contrast with Solti's Chiacago reading is stark.
I know this is all subjective and alas I haven't the musical terminology to really clarify what I mean. But Mahler brings out the romantic in me, which is his goal I suppose. It's all a matter of taste, but Solti's is the only Mahler that I've never managed to warm up to, and I probably have close to a dozen sets on my shelf. YMMV, of course...
Quote from: jwinter on March 24, 2009, 10:22:39 AM
Based on all of the above, I decided to reload the Solti CSO cycle back into ye olde iPod, and give it another whirl. This morning I listened to the Chicago 2nd (haven't heard the London). It's an exciting performance, it zips along, and the playing is formidable, but.... I dunno, it still just leaves me cold. I get no sense of Mahler's gorgeous orchestration from Solti -- the music feels too simple somehow, he gets across the basic argument masterfully but there's no emotional pull, none of that Viennese nostalgic romanticism that says Mahler to me.
I decided to follow it up with Barbirolli's stereo Stuttgart 2nd for comparison. I am hearing it as I type, and at only about 5 minutes in I am luxuriating in all that Solti misses. The Chicago orchestra plays rings around these fellows, but there is a dark, visceral quality here that immediately grabs me. The ensemble isn't as tight, but there are lovely textures here that Solti overlooks. And I get a much stronger sense of taking a musical/emotional/spiritual journey, that the beautiful sounds that Mahler and Barbirolli create are leading somewhere, and I am drawn to follow. I'm by no means saying that Barbirolli's is the best 2nd I've ever heard, but for me the contrast with Solti's Chiacago reading is stark.
I know this is all subjective and alas I haven't the musical terminology to really clarify what I mean. But Mahler brings out the romantic in me, which is his goal I suppose. It's all a matter of taste, but Solti's is the only Mahler that I've never managed to warm up to, and I probably have close to a dozen sets on my shelf. YMMV, of course...
That's exactly how I feel about Solti's Mahler. He is often full of sound and fury, but within that, there simply isn't much substance. I get the impression that he really thinks playing loud and fast, and showing off his virtuosic ensemble (which really isn't that virtuosic when compared to so many other more amazing bands such as the BPO under HvK) is the main purpose of the music. Which, I feel, is totally inappropriate and does Mahler no justice.
Quote from: Bunny on March 24, 2009, 05:36:01 AM
::)
Your meaning was very clear. You characterized the qualities of "Bigger, Faster,
Louder" as intrinsically "American" and then went on to say that such qualities are the hallmarks of inferior products such as "fast food." Along with being "Bigger, Faster, Louder" and lacking in "nutritious value" do you also think that Americans are stupid?
Give it up. At this point your face is covered with Egg MacMuffin and you are dining on the toes of the foot in your mouth. >:D
Btw, I prefer Solti's Mahler 4th to Rattle's. For that matter I'd rather listen to just about any of Solti's Mahler rather than Abbado's, and Solti is far from my favorite conductor.
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/e2/b7/c53392c008a06432dd0c1010.L.jpg)
I despise the notion that "Bigger, Faster, Louder" is better in playing Mahler and such qualities are indeed hallmarks of inferior products such as "fast food". But I do not despise everything that is American and I have never said that I am against the people of that country either. Your fellow countrymen Spitvalve and DavidRoss have spoken and apparently they didn't feel insulted by my comment either, so I don't know why you are so ticked off by such a harmless post. If you were offended, I regret posting what I did. But it wasn't intended at all.
To say it one more time, to prevent all further arguments:
I am against Solti's interpretation of Mahler symphonies, and fast food.Did that last sentence offend you as well? Not really? Good. Now lets actually talk about Mahler.
Second listen today:
Mahler
Symphony No. 1
Chailly/Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra
Comparing it to my Slatkin....enjoyed it more due to the less use of the triangle that runs through Slatkin's take. Slatkin seems to enjoy this instrument more than any other conductor I have listened to. More Bruckner-esque sounding to me. Thanks again to the S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent that provided me with the Chailly to test drive.
Quote from: Bogey on March 25, 2009, 06:26:47 PM
Second listen today:
Mahler
Symphony No. 1
Chailly/Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra
Comparing it to my Slatkin....enjoyed it more due to the less use of the triangle that runs through Slatkin's take. Slatkin seems to enjoy this instrument more than any other conductor I have listened to. More Bruckner-esque sounding to me. Thanks again to the S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent that provided me with the Chailly to test drive.
Chailly's whole set is well worth a listen. An amazing orchestra at work, and Chailly does an excellent job shaping and coalescing the fine details. My one major reservation is the general lack of overall tension across the long term: too often movements seem to flag under his moderate tempi. Mahler should be electric, not candlelit :)
Quote from: imperfection on March 22, 2009, 09:40:51 PM
To me, Solti's Mahler is essentially American: Bigger, Faster, Louder equals better! Yay!
I like my Mahler done with more subtlety and poetry than that, thank you very much. For a beginner, I would recommend the Kubelik set on DG.
Interesting that you'd recommend Kubelik as an antidote to Solti, since Kubelik's is probably the fastest cycle in existence. Just to put some perspective on the stereotype Solti allegedly represents, here are some timings:
Symphony #2
Walter 21:35 10:35 10:45 4:12 32:24
Solti 21:15 10:36 10:14 4:27 34:28
Symphony #6
Kubelik 21:07 11:35 11:35 26:30
Solti 21:03 12:33 15:34 27:28
Symphony #7
Abbado 21:27 16:37 8:55 14:01 17:45
Solti 21:33 15:46 9:19 14:32 16:25
Das Lied von der Erde
Kubelik 8:37 9:34 3:09 6:38 4:23 29:34
Solti 8:37 9:43 3:08 6:56 4:22 31:51
Solti's actually slower overall than Kubelik, Walter and Abbado but I seldom hear anyone criticizing these conductors in the way scorn is heaped on Solti.
As far as "bigger" and "louder" ...well, on my stereo
every Mahler symphony is loud is parts ;D I don't hear Solti as being bigger (whatever
that means in classical music) or louder than any other version I own. Solti does not ignore Mahler's dynamics instructions. Where Solti can perhaps be criticized is in his lack of Viennese charm but frankly, that can be counted a plus in symphonies like the Sixth where fate is indeed very brutal.
Sarge
Solti isn't always fast, he is just a bit jerky. He also seems to take odd turns in tempo. He is fast one moment, then ponderous when he ought to speed things up. His conducting is just too schizophrenic for my tastes. His textures are a marvel of incisive clarity, it's amazing what he gets out of the orchestra (or maybe he was lucky and had insanely good musicians under his hands), but other then that he's too much of an hit and miss.
Kubelik seems to be the complete opposite. He is fast when Solti is slow (and vice-versa), his textures are thick and lush where Solti is thin and dry and so forth. The thing where they seem to differ the most is build up. Kubelik has a much more refined sense of development, while Solti seems to rely a lot on dynamic contrast. And yes, Kubelik really does have that special "Viennese" touch. Under his baton, Mahler ceases to be the "father of 20th century music" and seems to stand closer to the days of Beethoven. In a way, he sort of reminds me of a slightly subdued version of Carlos Kleiber.
Quote from: Bogey on March 16, 2009, 03:56:02 AM
As some of you know, Mahler is not my favorite. However, I still continue to return to his music with fresh ears from time to time hoping the nut will crack. Maybe it is the recordings that I have or possibly the pieces I have are not the best starting points. So, please recommend to me one Mahler recording that you believe could help me to break through that I do not have listed. Appreciated.
I second Springrite's advice: look for some DVD's about Mahler & his music. Lenny B. made some, in his own enthousiastic way, and there's also a DVD
Conducting Mahler, related to the
Mahlerfest of Amsterdam 1995, with interviews with and rehearsal episodes of renowned conductors like Abbado, Chailly, Haitink, Muti and Rattle. And Chailly plays a main part in the documentary
I have lost touch with the world, based on the 9th symphony and .... the song
Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen. Really beautiful music.
If you'll follow this advice, you might not only get the spirit, but get the
feeling, too. :)
Second advice (has also been mentioned here before, I think): try his songs first. Not only the orchestral ones, but also the ones with 'Klavier'.
If I remember it well: it did work for me that way, many many years ago.
Good luck in trying! If it doesn't work: there's still errr .... Bach! ;)
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on March 26, 2009, 08:13:57 AM
Solti isn't always fast, he is just a bit jerky. He also seems to take odd turns in tempo. He is fast one moment, then ponderous when he ought to speed things up. His conducting is just too schizophrenic for my tastes. His textures are a marvel of incisive clarity, it's amazing what he gets out of the orchestra (or maybe he was lucky and had insanely good musicians under his hands), but other then that he's too much of an hit and miss.
Kubelik seems to be the complete opposite. He is fast when Solti is slow (and vice-versa), his textures are thick and lush where Solti is thin and dry and so forth. The thing where they seem to differ the most is build up. Kubelik has a much more refined sense of development, while Solti seems to rely a lot on dynamic contrast. And yes, Kubelik really does have that special "Viennese" touch. Under his baton, Mahler ceases to be the "father of 20th century music" and seems to stand closer to the days of Beethoven. In a way, he sort of reminds me of a slightly subdued version of Carlos Kleiber.
Yes, I somehow get this idea. Although I still like Solti in several Mahler-recordings. But Kubelik is not only a more refined developer (etc.), but also more lyrical in approaching the score, IMHO. Which works very well with Mahler's music, also in the later symphonies. Must admit I haven't listened to Mahler for a long time, but when I read a thread like this, I always think: must get that complete Kubelik box someday. Haven't done that yet. :-[
Post scriptum: I
do have Bertini, though! :D
Bogey, I recently wrote how I got into Mahler either on this site or back on sh.tv, but I can't find it, so I will retype.
I struggled for ages with my first Mahler CD, which was Ivan Fischer's M2 with the Budapest Festival Orchestra (a modern recording). I must have played it about ten times, but it never made any sense to me. I was about to give up on Mahler altogether, but I decided I'd try one alternate recording of the same symphony first. Not really knowing where to look, I simply bought the "most purchased" M2 on CDUniverse, which happens to be Bernstein's late 80's recording on DG. This CD really busted the 2nd symphony and Mahler in general wide open for me. I ony had to listen a couple of times and I was transfixed. Everything snapped into place, including Fischer's version. I don't have much Bernstein in my collection but in this recording he delivered one of the most powerful, gut-wrenching, awe-inspiring classical performances I've heard. I feel like I'm walking on clouds after the magnificent finale. Finally understanding Mahler's genius in at last one work, I was then able to move onto others with more confidence, and he's now my favourite composer. Perhaps give this one a try?
Quote from: imperfection on March 22, 2009, 09:40:51 PM
To me, Solti's Mahler is essentially American: Bigger, Faster, Louder equals better! Yay!
I like my Mahler done with more subtlety and poetry than that, thank you very much. For a beginner, I would recommend the Kubelik set on DG.
Quote from: imperfection on March 23, 2009, 08:10:07 PM
In no way I was trying to insult America or Americans.I was trying to illustrate how Solti's Mahler sound like, that's all. Which I don't like. "Bigger, Faster, Louder" are adjectives that spring to many others' minds when Solti's Mahler (or indeed, anything conducted by him) is mentioned, so it's not even just my opinion. Apparently many find him to be overly driven and careless of details as well.
Quote from: imperfection on March 24, 2009, 05:44:06 PM
I despise the notion that "Bigger, Faster, Louder" is better in playing Mahler and such qualities are indeed hallmarks of inferior products such as "fast food". But I do not despise everything that is American and I have never said that I am against the people of that country either. Your fellow countrymen Spitvalve and DavidRoss have spoken and apparently they didn't feel insulted by my comment either, so I don't know why you are so ticked off by such a harmless post. If you were offended, I regret posting what I did. But it wasn't intended at all.
To say it one more time, to prevent all further arguments: I am against Solti's interpretation of Mahler symphonies, and fast food.
Did that last sentence offend you as well? Not really? Good. Now lets actually talk about Mahler.
Okay, let's get this straight: Solti's Mahler is essentially American because it's bigger, louder and faster. It's just like fast food (American not Chinese, I presume) which is also bigger, faster and louder (?) the quintessentially American qualities which, as you have stated over and over, you don't like and which you consider inferior. If this were a math equation, one would write:
American=Bigger, Faster, Louder=Solti=Inferior.
Now, if you wished to say that you didn't care for Solti because you find his interpretations too big, fast and loud, then you are free to do so. If you didn't wish to insult America and Americans, then you would never have thought to describe these qualities which you have defined as "inferior" as American.
Now, just to confuse you a little more, I will tell you that I am not offended by your posts; at this point I'm amused. I find it impossible to be offended by someone who is so opposed to our "American" qualities of "Bigger, Louder, Faster" that he has proved himself to be completely un-American, that is, "smaller, slower, softer."
Quote from: Bunny on March 28, 2009, 10:39:11 AM
Okay, let's get this straight: Solti's Mahler is essentially American because it's bigger, louder and faster. It's just like fast food (American not Chinese, I presume) which is also bigger, faster and louder (?) the quintessentially American qualities which, as you have stated over and over, you don't like and which you consider inferior. If this were a math equation, one would write:
American=Bigger, Faster, Louder=Solti=Inferior.
Now, if you wished to say that you didn't care for Solti because you find his interpretations too big, fast and loud, then you are free to do so. If you didn't wish to insult America and Americans, then you would never have thought to describe these qualities which you have defined as "inferior" as American.
Now, just to confuse you a little more, I will tell you that I am not offended by your posts; at this point I'm amused. I find it impossible to be offended by someone who is so opposed to our "American" qualities of "Bigger, Louder, Faster" that he has proved himself to be completely un-American, that is, "smaller, slower, softer."
Thank you.
Less is more.
Quote from: imperfection on March 28, 2009, 06:11:20 PM
Thank you. Less is more.
Sometimes, but in this case, less is less.
Quote from: Salome on March 23, 2009, 10:04:52 PM
Solti's first recording of the 2nd symphony with the LSO is near the very top of a very high pile. He is helped by Heather Harper and Helen Watts who are among the best soloists who have graced any recording. Highly recommended. And now all 80:53 has been squeezed onto a single CD in the Decca Originals series.
Solti's LSO recordings of the 1st and 9th symphonies are also among my favourites.
Give them a try.
I just heard Solti's LSO 2nd this year for the first time, when it jumped instantly into place as one of my favorites. I hadn't liked his M8 or either M1 on CD (though his 5th on LP has always been a favorite), so I never investigated beyond those on CD. Imagine my surprise to find I like this BMG cheapie.
I didn't feel offended by Imperfection's "Bigger, Faster, Louder" commentary, FWIW. It didn't occur to me. I spent time in McMansionville here last night, so "Bigger" was very much on display in my America, as well as "Uglier" and "Ridiculouser" (I couldn't get over a Rite-Aid architected and tricked out to look like a medieval castle, with four -- count 'em,
four -- turrets).
As far as "louder" goes, I remember driving from DC to Philadelphia in the middle of the night after a Brian Wilson concert in DC a couple of years ago, and hearing that "Well, I would walk 500 miles" song at full blast at 2 a.m. on a Monday morning in front of a chain restaurant along I-95. And I'm sure I don't need to mention rapmobiles, any day of the week.
I'm sure some ugly version of "faster" will occur to me sometime soon.
Good to see most Americans here have an open-mind and are not easily offended. :D Others might need to learn how to chill from them ::)
As for Solti's LSO 2nd, I can say that it is much better recorded than the Decca CSO remake...that whole set is problematic in recorded sound anyways. Soloists are severely highlighted, the brass has too bright and sharp an edge, and the whole orchestra just sounds like a chamber group trying desperately to sound "big", "fat" and "muscular". But obviously, most of the players in CSO are indeed technically amazing to hear. Just in my opinion, they aren't the most virtuousic orchestra ever. Not even close.
Be less Mahlerly Challenged. I am selling two of my recent Mahler 7s, both rather well-received (though not by me). They're both Like New.
One is the Tennstedt Live BBC Legends version, which sells new for $35 on Amazon, $27 on AM. You can have mine for $20 plus shipping.
The other is Michael Gielen's, which you can have for $10 plus shipping ($19.99 Amazon/$9.66 AM).
Quote from: imperfection on March 29, 2009, 11:53:56 AM
Good to see most Americans here have an open-mind and are not easily offended. :D Others might need to learn how to chill from them ::
Most American just ignored it - the whole thing just smacked of some knee jerk reaction. It also showed a lack of understanding of Solti's Mahler. Either way, I'm not sure why the person who posted it seems so smug (about Americans and Solti). Lots of people all over the globe have learned a lot from Solti (and Americans) and hopefully will continue to do so in the future.
Quote from: ukrneal on March 29, 2009, 12:27:57 PM
Most American just ignored it - the whole thing just smacked of some knee jerk reaction. It also showed a lack of understanding of Solti's Mahler. Either way, I'm not sure why the person who posted it seems so smug (about Americans and Solti). Lots of people all over the globe have learned a lot from Solti (and Americans) and hopefully will continue to do so in the future.
I showed a lack of understanding of Solti's Mahler? Tell me how.
Quote from: imperfection on March 29, 2009, 01:28:03 PM
I showed a lack of understanding of Solti's Mahler? Tell me how.
First rule of holes: stop digging. ;D
Quote from: imperfection on March 23, 2009, 06:49:32 PM
I don't think Bernstein share any of Solti's qualities in interpreting Mahler which made me sick. Even though both could be considered "heavy-handed" conductors in Mahler, Bernstein pays much attention to detail and shapes every phrase and fine detail with care (sometimes with too much care, hence the excessive emotionalism), as opposed to Solti, who like I said, lets the orchestra blare and tear through Mahler's score which consists of extremely complex details that should definitely not be ignored in order to bring out a coherent and convincing performance. Why Solti's Mahler appeal to many is because it is like fast food. Tastes good for the time you are eating it due to its very strong and distinctive flavors, but in the long run fails to endure thoughtful repeated listening and in-depth analysis because it simply hasn't much nutritious value, or musical substance in this case.
I hope you will understand my metaphor, whether you agree with it or not.
This is why I do not think you get Solti. In essence, you are admitting you don't like him nor do you agree with what he does. And that is fine. But he would not have the endearing value that his interpretations have if there wasn't something more there. Why has his Symphony No 8 been well embraced by the listening public for many years now if he has no substance? I'm not saying you have to like him, just that this is your own view (which seems to me distorted).
Quote from: ukrneal on March 29, 2009, 09:30:57 PM
This is why I do not think you get Solti. In essence, you are admitting you don't like him nor do you agree with what he does. And that is fine. But he would not have the endearing value that his interpretations have if there wasn't something more there. Why has his Symphony No 8 been well embraced by the listening public for many years now if he has no substance? I'm not saying you have to like him, just that this is your own view (which seems to me distorted).
Actually, you've said so much there, let me clarify. Solti does have a vision and the performance does have coherence (this is my biggest beef with your description, pun intended). We may dislike it, but I find it hard to argue this (within itself, it is completely coherent and consistent, at times eerily so). I think 'heavy-handed' is not right either. He could be bombastic, but the performances are not heavy per se. They don't lag or drag at all (you later say Solti is faster, so heavy-handed would seem to contradict that). Finally, I think he does focus on details, it's just you don't like the accents he makes to them or what he does with them.
Quote from: jwinter on March 29, 2009, 03:47:34 PM
First rule of holes: stop digging. ;D
Post of the day. 8)
Quote from: ukrneal on March 29, 2009, 09:30:57 PM
This is why I do not think you get Solti. In essence, you are admitting you don't like him nor do you agree with what he does. And that is fine. But he would not have the endearing value that his interpretations have if there wasn't something more there. Why has his Symphony No 8 been well embraced by the listening public for many years now if he has no substance? I'm not saying you have to like him, just that this is your own view (which seems to me distorted).
I have wondered about this for many years. There's almost no performance of Mahler's 8th I don't like more than Solti's.
Since I started this discussion (discontent over the Solti set) many pages ago I feel a sense of moral obligation to jump in here and say that I hope the discussions in the preceding pages have not upset anyone here. I do not know why I reacted with such disdain to Solti's interpretation, perhaps it had something to do with my very first unpleasant reaction to Mahler's music and the fact that Mahler's music was delivered under the baton of Solti. All I ask of someone who is Mahlerly challenged is to understand that interpretation could be one reason, one of many reasons that could have made Mahler's music...oh what is the word I am looking for here...."INACCESSABLE".
marvin
Quote from: nicht schleppend on March 30, 2009, 05:50:05 AM
I have wondered about this for many years. There's almost no performance of Mahler's 8th I don't like more than Solti's.
Solti's Mahler 8 is my benchmark for that symphony, and his 4th with the London SO is also very special.
I don't reach for Solti on an everyday basis, but there are those times when his idiosyncratic interpretations really seem to hit the spot; although I reach more often for the earlier recordings with the LSO than the later ones with the CS. Another thing I will say for Solti is that his orchestras play and sound beautifully. I've heard Mahler performances over the years where the play has been rough and/or the orchestra just not in sync; singers don't have big enough voices to fill the hall or have inappropriate voices; and I have heard interpretations that I would have to describe as just plain wrong. I've also heard how some conductors can make Mahler seem long and boring; or the orchestras sound too thin, stringy, and lean. Say what you will about Solti, his Mahler is never boring and his orchestras always have the proper heft. Nowadays when there is so much emphasis on "following the score," and the conductor's viewpoint is expected to be subordinated to whatever is printed on the score, it's actually good to hear an interpretation that is so highly personalized.
Quote from: marvinbrown on March 30, 2009, 06:11:16 AM
Since I started this discussion (discontent over the Solti set) many pages ago I feel a sense of moral obligation to jump in here and say that I hope the discussions in the preceding pages have not upset anyone here. I do not know why I reacted with such disdain to Solti's interpretation, perhaps it had something to do with my very first unpleasant reaction to Mahler's music and the fact that Mahler's music was delivered under the baton of Solti. All I ask of someone who is Mahlerly challenged is to understand that interpretation could be one reason, one of many reasons that could have made Mahler's music...oh what is the word I am looking for here...."INACCESSABLE".
marvin
Have you listened yet to Bernstein doing Mahler?
Quote from: marvinbrown on March 30, 2009, 06:11:16 AM
Since I started this discussion (discontent over the Solti set) many pages ago I feel a sense of moral obligation to jump in here and say that I hope the discussions in the preceding pages have not upset anyone here.
If anyone is, they shouldn't be. We all have our likes and dislikes. Although I wouldn't characterize Solti's Mahler the way imperfection did, I completely understand what he's talking about. On a scale ranging from aggressive to wimp, Solti is definitely on the aggressive side ;D That's what I like about him (in certain of the symphonies). His Sixth is a "take no prisoners" production...just like fate.
What you did, Marvin, was launch an interesting discussion...which is the purpose of this forum. No apologies necessary.
Sarge
Quote from: nicht schleppend on March 30, 2009, 06:58:15 AM
Have you listened yet to Bernstein doing Mahler?
No I shamefully have not as I heard that Bernstein presents a very emotional take on these symphonies. I was at HMV a few days ago and I noticed that there were a couple of Bernstein Mahler symphony cycles on the market. Which do you prefer:
This one? (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31cSgQ7LliL._SS400_.jpg)
or this one? (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41CMHNZEMRL._SS400_.jpg)
or perhaps this DVD production? (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41QPS65R19L._SS500_.jpg)
marvin
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 30, 2009, 07:40:25 AM
If anyone is, they shouldn't be. We all have our likes and dislikes. Although I wouldn't characterize Solti's Mahler the way imperfection did, I completely understand what he's talking about. On a scale ranging from aggressive to wimp, Solti is definitely on the aggressive side ;D That's what I like about him (in certain of the symphonies). His Sixth is a "take no prisoners" production...just like fate.
What you did, Marvin, was launch an interesting discussion...which is the purpose of this forum. No apologies necessary.
Sarge
Thank you Sarge. You are too kind my friend :).
Quote from: marvinbrown on March 30, 2009, 09:11:38 AM
No I shamefully have not as I heard that Bernstein presents a very emotional take on these symphonies. I was at HMV a few days ago and I noticed that there were a couple of Bernstein Mahler symphony cycles on the market. Which do you prefer:
This one? (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31cSgQ7LliL._SS400_.jpg)
or this one? (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41CMHNZEMRL._SS400_.jpg)
or perhaps this DVD production? (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41QPS65R19L._SS500_.jpg)
marvin
The first cycle with the NYPO is held by many to be his best, but I also love the DG set. I say "set" rather than cycle because it's not recorded with the same orchestra for all the symphonies. It includes performances with the Concergebouw, NYPO, as well as the Vienna Phil. I don't know the DVDs at all.
In any event, the tempos on the whole are a bit faster in the Sony set than the DG set which is also more emotionally overwrought in places or "nuanced." Bernstein did tend toward broader tempos as he got older. Sound quality is also a bit better for the DG set than the older Sony cycle. There may be newer remasters of the NYPO set, but the one pictured is the one that I have.
Both sets pack an emotional bang, if lacking the aggressive edge of Solti's cycles that was so belittled earlier in the thread.
Btw that DG set has become very pricey. You know, for that money you can pick up Gielen's set which is held to be one of the best around. Of course Gielen is a different "flavor" from Bernstein, cooler, harder edged, and darker.
If you are looking for something more lyrical with greater stress on the long line rather than the strobe light details of Solti, then Kubelik might be right for you.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 30, 2009, 07:40:25 AM
If anyone is, they shouldn't be. We all have our likes and dislikes. Although I wouldn't characterize Solti's Mahler the way imperfection did, I completely understand what he's talking about. On a scale ranging from aggressive to wimp, Solti is definitely on the aggressive side ;D That's what I like about him (in certain of the symphonies). His Sixth is a "take no prisoners" production...just like fate.
What you did, Marvin, was launch an interesting discussion...which is the purpose of this forum. No apologies necessary.
Sarge
Well Said...My sentiments exactly.
Thankfully most members are reasonable, considerate in understanding other people's tastes. :) I guess I just don't like Solti's Mahler at the end of the day. Call me what you will, but I have tried many times to enjoy his Mahler and have failed every time so far. So, I'll just stick to Bernstein, Sinopoli, Karajan.
Let the Solti bashing end here. :)
This is what I posted on another forum (or newsgroup) recently, about Sinopoli's 5th:
"I just finished listening to Sinopoli's 5th. WOW, what a performance.
The blend of the orchestra is very transparent, if not as smooth as
Karajan's BPO. Where bite is required, plenty of wild power is
available; where gentleness and/or bleakness is required, the PO plays
like angels. I could detect quite a lot of unique interpretative
insights brought by the conductor: for example, the clear-as-bell low
string crescendo at the beginning of the 2nd movement (which is the
strongest of them all, in my opinion), the perfect authentic cadence
that has its distance minimized at the end of the 3rd movement, etc.
It's such a strongly played, well thought out account. If the
reappearance of the brass chorale at the end of the finale was more
grandiose and the accelerando started earlier after the chorale, and
if the last couple notes of the symphony were more pronounced in
strict tempo, this would no doubt have been my favourite 5th of them
all (I've heard about 8 so far).
The sound of the recording is excellent. There is plenty of space in
the avenue, which is good, and all instruments register very well.
Especially when you have trumpet snippets here and there, that trumpet
tone is just killer: not as bright as Karajan's BPO trumpets, but a
very strongly focused, centered, clean brilliance. The climaxes are
hair-raising. I love how you don't need to turn the volume knob way up
to hear the smallest of details.
In conclusion, what an awesome performance. I will surely go back to
this many times in the near future, currently it is one of my
favourite Mahler 5ths, along with Karajan and Bernstein DG. "
Quote from: marvinbrown on March 30, 2009, 09:11:38 AM
No I shamefully have not as I heard that Bernstein presents a very emotional take on these symphonies. I was at HMV a few days ago and I noticed that there were a couple of Bernstein Mahler symphony cycles on the market. Which do you prefer:
This one? (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31cSgQ7LliL._SS400_.jpg)
marvin
Yes, this one, Bernstein's first set, on CBS/Sony, with the exceptions of the 4th, in which I like Karajan best, and the 5th, in which I like Bernstein's on DG, Karajan, and Sinopoli. I also like Solti's M5 on LP.
Of Bernstein's DG set, the 2nd and 7th are my favorites for those symphonies.
Quote from: marvinbrown on March 30, 2009, 09:11:38 AM
No I shamefully have not as I heard that Bernstein presents a very emotional take on these symphonies. I was at HMV a few days ago and I noticed that there were a couple of Bernstein Mahler symphony cycles on the market. Which do you prefer:
This one?
[CD box CBS/Sony]
or this one?
[CD box DG]
or perhaps this DVD production?
[DVD box DG]
marvin
To understand Bernstein's passionate passion for Mahler, the DVD set would not be a bad choice. Bernstein on DVD is, IMHO, always fascinating to watch.
Quote from: Marc on April 08, 2009, 12:32:15 PM
To understand Bernstein's passionate passion for Mahler, the DVD set would not be a bad choice. Bernstein on DVD is, IMHO, always fascinating to watch.
Like in John Oswald's concerto for Conductor and Orchestra. ;D
Quote from: imperfection on March 30, 2009, 11:12:55 AM
This is what I posted on another forum (or newsgroup) recently, about Sinopoli's 5th:
[detailed description snipped]
I have that performance as well. I've always liked it, but wouldn't put it at the very top. I should listen to it again with these things in mind.
My favorite M5 is Chailly/Conc'bouw (Decca).
Quote from: marvinbrown on March 30, 2009, 09:11:38 AM
No I shamefully have not as I heard that Bernstein presents a very emotional take on these symphonies. I was at HMV a few days ago and I noticed that there were a couple of Bernstein Mahler symphony cycles on the market. Which do you prefer:
Not an easy answer (the easy answer is, of course, buy all three ;D ). I prefer the DG 1, 2, 5 and 6; Sony 3, 7, 8 and 9. Bernstein's Fourths I've never cared for but I really
hate his use of a boy in the DG Finale. (I don't hate the Sony version; I just ignore it ;) ) Sound is not always better in the DG recordings (especially if you come from my perspective: having grown up with the Columbia corporate sound). I guess I'd opt for the classic first cycle if I only had room for one in my collection.
Sarge
Bear in mind, Marvin, that the first cycle box set seems to be OOP now and commanding a high price, so if HMV has it at reasonable cost that might be reason alone to snatch it up. Note that the DGG cycle is also available at mid price in three separate boxes (1-4, 5-7, 8-10+DLVDE). Thanks partly to Sarge's praise, I pick up the DGG last year and really prefer it overall. It's even more "emotionally" excessive (near-wallowing) than the first cycle. Face it--if you want Bernstein's emotionalism--and there's a lot to be said for it--then you might as well go for all the gusto you can get!
Quote from: Spitvalve on April 09, 2009, 03:21:06 AM
I have that performance as well. I've always liked it, but wouldn't put it at the very top. I should listen to it again with these things in mind.
My favorite M5 is Chailly/Conc'bouw (Decca).
The Chailly has wonderful, spacious sound too, and the characteristic dark Concertgebouw sound is also realistically captured. The Sinopoli is a great recording too, but of course the PO is brighter, leaner and perhaps more transparent than their Dutch counterpart here.
This is the newly remastered version of Bernstein's CBS Mahler, superseding the orange & purple one pictured in posts #120, 122, and 125.
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/213113.jpg)
http://www.arkivmusic.com/albumpage/213113-E526-5
Quote from: nicht schleppend on April 10, 2009, 07:09:09 PM
That you listen to little else, or nothing else, caught my attention. I'm that way with it, too, but only for a couple of years at a time. Then I move on to something else, not coming back to Mahler for another few years. Then I listen to little else for another few years. And so on, and so on...
Other people--most people--seem able to integrate other composers into their listening routine. It's interesting and unusual to meet someone as single-minded as myself.
Hmm... i hate to surprise you again, but I'm not sure that's quite like how I listen. (maybe i said it wrong) :-\
To be more specific (trying not to ramble too much), for me it's been like this-roughly, when I first got into classical, I listened to just a few composers- Paganini, Bach, etc. for awhile, and didn't have hardly any CDs. After about a year, I discovered and completely fell in love with Prokofiev's music and the early Stravinsky ballets. The year after that, I developed a sort of fixation on the symphonies and piano concertos of Brahms. I was, simply, addicted... every night I would play through one all the way through, for over a year- it's like a complete escape from reality.
Then I discovered Mahler- at first, his phrasing sounded too square and direct compared to Brahms, but over time, with familiarity, I "got" his message, which was even more powerful, and I started listening to his music every single night for about 2 years- though the last year I haven't been so consistent. But I DO listen to other composers- and I mean, a lot- 2 or 3 CDs almost every day, since I need lots of variety to look forward to.
The sad thing is that there is still a lot of good music to look forward to, but I've already listened to enough to tell that there is most likely nothing out there that can beat my favorite, the 9th symphony (especially the Adagio). That's part of the reason why I keep on composing- just to see if I can write something better one day- even if I can't, at least I could say I tried. :-\
That is interesting how you describe your listening habits. What else have you moved on to during your Mahler off years? :)
Quote from: Bahamut on April 10, 2009, 07:37:53 PMThat is interesting how you describe your listening habits. What else have you moved on to during your Mahler off years? :)
Sometimes chamber music. Sometimes Linda Ronstadt, as well as everyone else who recorded on Asylum Records in the late 70s. Sometimes Mozart, esp. the Piano Concertos. Sometimes the Beach Boys.
Quote from: nicht schleppend on April 10, 2009, 06:48:52 PM
This is the newly remastered version of Bernstein's CBS Mahler, superseding the orange & purple one pictured in posts #120, 122, and 125.
Have you heard it? Any idea how this latest digital remastering compares with the remastering a few years ago for the orange/purple box?
Quote from: DavidRoss on April 11, 2009, 04:27:26 AM
Have you heard it? Any idea how this latest digital remastering compares with the remastering a few years ago for the orange/purple box?
I haven't heard it. It just became available. It's still on pre-order at Amazon. I wonder if it's the same mastering as the SACDs from Japan, i.e., DSD but not SACD.
Quote from: nicht schleppend on April 11, 2009, 04:39:38 AM
I haven't heard it. It just became available. It's still on pre-order at Amazon. I wonder if it's the same mastering as the SACDs from Japan, i.e., DSD but not SACD.
Hmmm--I followed up the Arkiv citations--the reviews they cite are of earlier releases remastered, IIRC, in 2001, and Hurwitz gave it 10/8, not 10/10 as Arkiv misrepresents it on their item page.
Quote from: DavidRoss on April 11, 2009, 05:13:08 AM
Hmmm--I followed up the Arkiv citations--the reviews they cite are of earlier releases remastered, IIRC, in 2001, and Hurwitz gave it 10/8, not 10/10 as Arkiv misrepresents it on their item page.
Here's the Hurwitz review I read, in which Hurwitz gives the M3 from the box set a 10/10: http://classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=163. I have the earlier version on CBS, and though it's my favorite, I wouldn't give it a 10 for sound. The 10/8 was for the box set, parts of which don't have very good sound at all, the Fifth in particular. http://classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=3176
When I checked the Hurwitz Lennie/Sony box set review, there was a link to his review of Fischer's new M4 (http://classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=12151), which he gave 10/10, just as in his previous MTT M4 review (http://classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=7548). The MTT 4 has become my favorite (in no small part due to Laura Claycomb's surprising Heavenly Life), but Hurwitz's description of Fischer's disc sounds enticing. Anyone heard it?
Quote from: nicht schleppend on April 10, 2009, 06:48:52 PM
This is the newly remastered version of Bernstein's CBS Mahler, superseding the orange & purple one pictured in posts #120, 122, and 125.
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/213113.jpg)
http://www.arkivmusic.com/albumpage/213113-E526-5
I will be buying that newly remastered set in a heartbeat on 4/14 release date, will probably use one of the Amazon sellers......
I much prefer the Sony/CBS NYPO set to his later 1980s DG set in general (DG 5th is one noteable exception)
Quote from: DarkAngel on April 11, 2009, 02:30:32 PM
I will be buying that newly remastered set in a heartbeat on 4/14 release date, will probably use one of the Amazon sellers......
I much prefer the Sony/CBS NYPO set to his later 1980s DG set in general (DG 5th is one noteable exception)
Do you not like arkiv?
Quote from: nicht schleppend on April 11, 2009, 05:06:27 PM
Do you not like arkiv?
Love Arkiv.............but Amazon sellers will almost always be cheaper price and shipping will be only $3
Quote from: DarkAngel on April 11, 2009, 06:43:14 PM
Love Arkiv.............but Amazon sellers will almost always be cheaper price and shipping will be only $3
I love and hate Arkiv. They are a phenomenal source for music, but because they are based in NY and I live in NY, I pay not only the shipping but the exorbitant NYC sales tax (8.375%). Until Amazon exhausts its appeals, they aren't charging anyone sales tax, and their shipping is the same.
Quote from: Bunny on April 13, 2009, 11:57:53 AM
I love and hate Arkiv. They are a phenomenal source for music, but because they are based in NY and I live in NY, I pay not only the shipping but the exorbitant NYC sales tax (8.375%). Until Amazon exhausts its appeals, they aren't charging anyone sales tax, and their shipping is the same.
My emails say they're based in PA, and I have to pay tax, too.
Quote from: Bunny on April 13, 2009, 11:57:53 AM
I love and hate Arkiv. They are a phenomenal source for music, but because they are based in NY and I live in NY, I pay not only the shipping but the exorbitant NYC sales tax (8.375%). Until Amazon exhausts its appeals, they aren't charging anyone sales tax, and their shipping is the same.
Actually, Amazon (not necessarily marketplace sellers) includes sales tax too. But Arkiv is just too expensive. It will cheaper elsewhere.
Quote from: ukrneal on April 13, 2009, 01:14:12 PM
Actually, Amazon (not necessarily marketplace sellers) includes sales tax too. But Arkiv is just too expensive. It will cheaper elsewhere.
I haven't had any sales tax added to my purchases! That's certainly going to happen in the future, but for now if the vendor is out of state, there has been no tax.
Quote from: nicht schleppend on April 13, 2009, 12:00:16 PM
My emails say they're based in PA, and I have to pay tax, too.
From their FAQ:
10. Why was I charged tax on my order?
ArkivMusic has a corporate presence in the states of California, Connecticut, Florida, New York and Pennsylvania, and therefore we are required to collect and pay sales tax in those states.
Colour me extremely intrigued by the new re-mastering of the Bernstein CBS Mahler.
Indeed, even if all they manage is to make some of the recordings a little sharper and a little clearer, I'm still getting it.
(And looking for something to do with my copy of the earlier version. :P)
Quote from: Renfield on April 17, 2009, 01:26:39 PM
(And looking for something to do with my copy of the earlier version. :P)
My mailbox is hungry. 0:)
Quote from: Renfield on April 17, 2009, 01:26:39 PM
Colour me extremely intrigued by the new re-mastering of the Bernstein CBS Mahler.
Indeed, even if all they manage is to make some of the recordings a little sharper and a little clearer, I'm still getting it.
(And looking for something to do with my copy of the earlier version. :P)
Don't sell your original until you know you like the new one. Not all remasterings are a step up in quality.
Quote from: nicht schleppend on April 17, 2009, 03:28:36 PM
Don't sell your original until you know you like the new one. Not all remasterings are a step up in quality.
Obviously.
I was, as is my wont, slightly exaggerating with my 'worry'. ;)
Quote from: Renfield on April 17, 2009, 03:44:03 PM
Obviously.
I was, as is my wont, slightly exaggerating with my 'worry'. ;)
I used to do that, sell the old one before I heard the new, which wasn't always an improvement.
Solti/CSO is becoming my favourite M2. The recording is absolutely dreadful, but the performance is insanely satisfying. If I was a critic from ClassicsToday, I would give this a 10 for artistic quality and 1 for technical quality.
Quote from: imperfection on April 17, 2009, 09:12:23 PM
Solti/CSO is becoming my favourite M2. The recording is absolutely dreadful, but the performance is insanely satisfying. If I was a critic from ClassicsToday, I would give this a 10 for artistic quality and 1 for technical quality.
How does this recording compare with his earlier version with LSO? I have the LSO version with the latest remastering and it sounds OK but pretty black and white and the ending seemed tame, I thought Solti would pack a bigger punch here.
I think the problem with Solti and Mahler as I don't sense any mystery ... its all so glaring .. the 2nd symphony IMO when played effectively should contain some mystical moments..its my favorite work along with Berg's Violin Concerto.
Quote from: imperfection on April 17, 2009, 09:12:23 PM
Solti/CSO is becoming my favourite M2. The recording is absolutely dreadful, but the performance is insanely satisfying.
Unfortunately it's not so easy to separate them. I value that performance for its savage first movement, the extreme virtuoso playing, and the general spectacular atmosphere, particularly in the Judgment Day sections. But one has to live with the close-up, sterile sonics.
Quote from: imperfection on April 17, 2009, 09:12:23 PM
Solti/CSO is becoming my favourite M2. The recording is absolutely dreadful, but the performance is insanely satisfying. If I was a critic from ClassicsToday, I would give this a 10 for artistic quality and 1 for technical quality.
The Solti/CSO 2nd is my favorite of a large collection of 2nds, his earlier LSO 2nd also ranks very high but does not scale the same lofty heights with a more restrained climax. The final apocalypse scence, the revelation of God to man, the union of the soul with the universe has never been done better than by Solti CSO, no other version moves me like this one, the climax is just astonishing
I do not find the sound quality to be bad, in fact quite detailed and revealing although like any early 1980s digital release a new remaster can help refine the sound, the fools at the record company choose the LSO 2nd for remaster in DG Original series instead of the great CSO version, a tragedy........
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/145303.jpg)
Does anybody have any information about the new set by Micheal Gilien? I was listening to a couple of clips and it sounds very interesting.
Quote from: Bunny on April 13, 2009, 11:57:53 AM
I love and hate Arkiv. They are a phenomenal source for music, but because they are based in NY and I live in NY, I pay not only the shipping but the exorbitant NYC sales tax (8.375%). Until Amazon exhausts its appeals, they aren't charging anyone sales tax, and their shipping is the same.
The taxticians everywhere are salivating over the money to be drained from Internet sales: we can only hope that 2010 will bring to office some sensible politicians rather than taxticians.
On topic: I always liked the Ormandy/Philadelphia
Mahler 2nd Symphony which I believe was on RCA, and not Columbia, from the 1970's.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on April 23, 2009, 06:53:53 AM
Does anybody have any information about the new set by Micheal Gilien? I was listening to a couple of clips and it sounds very interesting.
The set came out about four years ago and is the best on the market. Gielen leaves sentiment at the door and delivers industrial-strength interpretations.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on April 23, 2009, 06:53:53 AM
Does anybody have any information about the new set by Micheal Gilien? I was listening to a couple of clips and it sounds very interesting.
What new set by Michael Gielen? Do you mean the box set pictured below? That has been out since 2005, and been very well reviewed. Hurwitz loves it (gave it the 10/10 but he also wrote many of the liner notes for the individual symphony releases), as do many other critics. It's standouts are the 3rd, 7th, and 8th as well as very good 2nd, 5th, 6th, and 9th. Fourth is the weakest, and even that is passable.
The biggest problem with the set is the wickedly high price, especially in dollars. For what they are demanding for the set, the packaging should have been nicer and the symphony breaks less focused on putting as much onto as few discs possible.
Is it the best cycle available? Most say Bertini's cycle is the "best" but Gielen's is at least as good, but at double the price.
(http://www.haenssler-classic.de/fileadmin/mediafiles/scm_shopproduct/Bilder/gross/093130000.JPG)
Quote from: Bunny on April 23, 2009, 07:33:00 AM
What new set by Michael Gielen? Do you mean the box set pictured below? That has been out since 2005, and been very well reviewed. Hurwitz loves it (gave it the 10/10 but he also wrote many of the liner notes for the individual symphony releases), as do many other critics. It's standouts are the 3rd, 7th, and 8th as well as very good 2nd, 5th, 6th, and 9th. Fourth is the weakest, and even that is passable.
The biggest problem with the set is the wickedly high price, especially in dollars. For what they are demanding for the set, the packaging should have been nicer and the symphony breaks less focused on putting as much onto as few discs possible.
Is it the best cycle available? Most say Bertini's cycle is the "best" but Gielen's is at least as good, but at double the price.
(http://www.haenssler-classic.de/fileadmin/mediafiles/scm_shopproduct/Bilder/gross/093130000.JPG)
It will be at Berkshire soon.
Quote from: Bunny on April 23, 2009, 07:33:00 AM
Most say Bertini's cycle is the "best" but Gielen's is at least as good, but at double the price.
Could you please point us to the sources for this claim? Thank you.
P.S. (....)
Quote from: DavidRoss on April 23, 2009, 08:12:54 AM
Could you please point us to the sources for this claim? Thank you.
The reviewers at Gramophone (Jed Distler) and ClassicsToday (David Hurwitz) called it the best cycle.
Looking for the best Mahler deal on the planet? This is it...for now[...]
By and large, it is the most consistently satisfying Mahler cycle on disc, in terms of its lovingly idiomatic and world-class performances, plus robust, realistic engineering that truly replicates the dynamic impact and spatial depth that these scores convey in the best concert halls.[...]
Among other Mahler symphony cycles, only Gielen's SWR traversal (it does not include Das Lied) possibly rivals Bertini for sonic and interpretive consistency. Yet Hänssler's relatively uneconomical 13-disc layout ultimately yields to EMI's generously packed and sensibly programmed 11 discs. For cost, convenience, and quality, there's no better Mahler deal on the planet. Of course, great deals don't last for ever... Jed Distler Gramophone (http://www.gramophone.co.uk/gramofilereview.asp?reviewID=200214961&mediaID=220832&issue=Reviewed%3A+Gramophone+6%2F2006)
...So it's wonderful to have it all together at last on 11 well-stuffed CDs, because on balance this is the finest complete Mahler cycle available. It has no weak spots at all, and several of the interpretations here, including Symphonies Nos. 1, 5, 7, 8, and 9 stand at or near the top of the list. The sonics are also stunning, a tribute to the WDR engineers working both in Germany and also live in Tokyo, where the last few items in the cycle were recorded. This is the Mahler cycle in which the music most closely sounds like it actually does in concert. David Hurwitz ClassicsToday
(http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=9667)
Accolades for "best" are as changeable as the phases of the moon. Today it's Bertini or Gielen, but tomorrow you know there will be a new flavor of the month. This is why my bookshelves are strained to the breaking point with cds. ;)
Quote from: nut-job on April 23, 2009, 07:56:26 AM
It will be at Berkshire soon.
Only if it is going oop or a new remaster is coming out. Hannsler is guarding this cycle because it is such a money maker for them. They have released Symphony No. 1 briefly at the BMG music clubs, but no others came afterwards. If you find anything there, it will be the individual releases of the symphonies, and who knows whether the cumulative price will be less than the cost of the box from some of the Amazon vendors.
Quote from: Bunny on April 23, 2009, 09:43:02 AM
Only if it is going oop or a new remaster is coming out. Hannsler is guarding this cycle because it is such a money maker for them. They have released Symphony No. 1 briefly at the BMG music clubs, but no others came afterwards. If you find anything there, it will be the individual releases of the symphonies, and who knows whether the cumulative price will be less than the cost of the box from some of the Amazon vendors.
I'm not convinced it is such a money maker. How many people will spring for $180 when the EMI is selling the Rattle cycle for $45, the Bertini for $30, the Chailly is going for $65, the Haitink for $65. Eventually market forces will pull it down out of the stratosphere. Hanssler's Messiaen box was listed for $180, now it has a street price of $60. Mahler will follow.
Quote from: Bulldog on April 23, 2009, 07:22:35 AM
The set came out about four years ago and is the best on the market. Gielen leaves sentiment at the door and delivers industrial-strength interpretations.
Spot on, IMO.
And I recall getting an excellent price for it via Germany (amazon.de).
Just a random post here- listening to the 1st movement of the 3rd by Chailly, and it's the best I've heard! Perfection! 0:)
Ok, done.
Hännsler is almost a budget label, so when they put a premium price on something they usually keep the price high. The Gielen set has been available for 4 years and it's gotten more expensive over time. If you are going to wait for it to come down in price, you may have to wait a long time. Of course, there is always the option of the used set which will be less expensive.
Quote from: Renfield on April 23, 2009, 12:54:06 PM
Spot on, IMO.
And I recall getting an excellent price for it via Germany (amazon.de).
I hope that was a really good price. Did you ship to the USA? Amazon.de shipping costs to the USA are around $13.00 for the first item. Nowadays with the credit cards adding more fees for the money conversion in addition to the regular commission they charge, and taking in the relative strength or weakness of the Euro, you might find that it's not such a bargain now. Almost all European imports are more expensive here in any event because of the instability of the global economy. If an American wants the Gielen, s/he will have to pay more than s/he probably wants to pay. When I bought it a few years ago I hesitated, but I had a $25 Amazon coupon, there was a vendor who apparently had one set for a decent price, so I took the plunge. Sometimes buying is just not that much fun. :(
In any event, I sincerely hope that the price does drop so that everyone can buy it -- to heck with Hännsler. ;)
Quote from: Bahamut on April 23, 2009, 12:56:40 PM
Just a random post here- listening to the 1st movement of the 3rd by Chailly, and it's the best I've heard! Perfection! 0:)
Ok, done.
Chailly's Mahler 3rd and 9th are probably the best of his cycle, although his 8th is also very, very good. In fact, I like is 8th as much as his 3rd. The only thing about Chailly that I find a little bothersome is that his tempos are very broad. I'm still most happy with 9ths that fit on one cd. Btw, the Bach arrangement isn't bad either, but it's as much Mahler as Bach. Then again, Stokowski's Bach is also part Stoki too.
Quote from: Bunny on April 23, 2009, 01:31:38 PM
Chailly's Mahler 3rd and 9th are probably the best of his cycle, although his 8th is also very, very good. In fact, I like is 8th as much as his 3rd.
I am so happy to see more love for his 8th, which is not only one of my favorites of the piece, but a favorite recording in general. But many people don't seem to be so pleased with it, probably for the tempi reasons you mention.
In Chailly's "Live Radio Recordings" box, there is his live 8th from the 1995 MahlerFeest, and it is
even slower than this studio recording! But it works beautifully, too.
--Bruce
Quote
Chailly's Mahler 3rd and 9th are probably the best of his cycle, although his 8th is also very, very good. In fact, I like is 8th as much as his 3rd. The only thing about Chailly that I find a little bothersome is that his tempos are very broad. I'm still most happy with 9ths that fit on one cd. Btw, the Bach arrangement isn't bad either, but it's as much Mahler as Bach. Then again, Stokowski's Bach is also part Stoki too.
Well, at the moment, I haven't listened to 8, and probably haven't listened to 2 or 4 (unless I forgot that i did, but I doubt that), and I'm in the middle of 3.
I'm extremely impressed with 5, 6, 10, and so far, 3 (I can say now they're my favorite recordings). You got that right- if there's one word that could sum up his playing, it'd be slow. ;D The opening movement of the 6th is probably one of the slowest out there, but I've always liked it slow for some reason- it feels like each note carries so much weight and meaning rather than when rushed through, say, by Karajan (although there's nothing wrong with that, either). I just wished Mahler would have specified a piano dynamic for the cowbells, because Chailly makes them too loud- it sounds horrible! >:(
Now, the slow tempo applied to the opening movement of the 7th is just bizarre! ;D That movement is just bizarre anyways, but to make the whole thing sound so contemplative really is something- I'm not sure if I like it or not, but it's definitely welcome, and making this movement sound so incredibly different from what I'm used to (Solti) my make me even grow to love it more. :)
Quote from: Bunny on April 23, 2009, 01:31:38 PM
Hännsler is almost a budget label, so when they put a premium price on something they usually keep the price high. The Gielen set has been available for 4 years and it's gotten more expensive over time. If you are going to wait for it to come down in price, you may have to wait a long time. Of course, there is always the option of the used set which will be less expensive.
I hope that was a really good price. Did you ship to the USA? Amazon.de shipping costs to the USA are around $13.00 for the first item. Nowadays with the credit cards adding more fees for the money conversion in addition to the regular commission they charge, and taking in the relative strength or weakness of the Euro, you might find that it's not such a bargain now. Almost all European imports are more expensive here in any event because of the instability of the global economy. If an American wants the Gielen, s/he will have to pay more than s/he probably wants to pay. When I bought it a few years ago I hesitated, but I had a $25 Amazon coupon, there was a vendor who apparently had one set for a decent price, so I took the plunge. Sometimes buying is just not that much fun. :(
I recently purchased something from amazon.de. Shipping starts at 14 Euro, which nowadays is nearly $20.
We'll see. There are few used copies of the set on the various sites, an indication that it has not been selling like hot-cakes. I can't imagine that will change in Great Depression II. I suspect they're piled in a warehouse somewhere. I'm prepared to pay $50 tops for the set. It's not worth more to me because there's a lot of Mahler that I just don't really like so much. Some of the individual discs are at Berkshire for 6 bucks, maybe I'll pick up one or two. Maybe the 9th will turn up.
Quote from: DavidRoss on April 23, 2009, 08:12:54 AM
P.S. (....)
Hmmm...my post, referring back to this one (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11662.msg289794.html#msg289794) was deleted, and so was Bunny's response, so let me see if I have this policy straight:
It's okay for
(him) to insult my entire nation with his ignorant stereotypes, and it's okay for him to refuse to fess up and apologize when he's called on it, but it's not okay for us to laugh at his rudeness and hypocrisy?
BRW, Amazon France has the Gielen cycle for about €80.
Quote from: Bunny on April 23, 2009, 01:31:38 PM
Hännsler is almost a budget label, so when they put a premium price on something they usually keep the price high.
What is about their pricing that makes you think it's almost a budget label? As far as I can tell, their prices are up there - almost $20 for a single disc.
Quote from: DavidRoss on April 23, 2009, 02:21:03 PM
Hmmm...my post, referring back to this one (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11662.msg289794.html#msg289794) was deleted, and so was Bunny's response, so let me see if I have this policy straight:
It's okay for this bigot to insult my entire nation with his ignorant stereotypes, and it's okay for him to refuse to fess up and apologize when he's called on it, but it's not okay for us to laugh at his rudeness and hypocrisy?
He's just one of many who are jealous of the USA. Anyways, bigots don't "fess up"; they move on to their next victim.
Quote from: Bulldog on April 23, 2009, 02:29:08 PM
He's just one of many who are jealous of the USA. Anyways, bigots don't "fess up"; they move on to their next victim.
You're right, of course, and his efforts to defend his rudeness are what tells us that he's a bigot, for if it were just a thoughtless mistake he'd have been quick to see the error of his ways and apologize. But I don't understand why he can be as insulting as he likes but we cannot have at good laugh at his expense over it. The double standard is a head-scratcher. ???
Quote from: DavidRoss on April 23, 2009, 02:55:48 PM
You're right, of course, and his efforts to defend his rudeness are what tells us that he's a bigot, for if it were just a thoughtless mistake he'd have been quick to see the error of his ways and apologize. But I don't understand why he can be as insulting as he likes but we cannot have at good laugh at his expense over it. The double standard is a head-scratcher. ???
Maybe the moderator doesn't expect much from a guy who's name is Imperfection. :D
Quote from: Bulldog on April 23, 2009, 03:04:10 PM
Maybe the moderator doesn't expect much from a guy who's name is Imperfection. :D
Careful...you might get (...) ;D
Quote from: Bulldog on April 23, 2009, 02:23:36 PM
What is about their pricing that makes you think it's almost a budget label? As far as I can tell, their prices are up there - almost $20 for a single disc.
Maybe it's the low prices I paid for so many of their cds? When the label first started appearing at Amazon, the prices were comparable to record club prices, and I also have acquired quite a few of them at yourmusic.com (most of the Thomas Fey Haydn, for instance). Nowadays they have increased the prices, perhaps as a result of the weakened dollar? Who knows! But the label is not as cheap as CPO, but it's still not as expensive as say, DG or Carus (which is really "premium" pricing). Oops! Someone is trying to sell a cd I own (and purchased for 5.99 at YourMusic) for $122! What's really annoying is that it's not out of print, but has only had it's cover picture changed. Some people are really into exploiting the consumer. >:(
Compare:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41M8WXYZ4BL._SS500_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51HOhx4s3NL._SS500_.jpg)
I must admit I like the cover with the painting (Goya?) detail better than the conductor voguing at the shore.
Quote from: Bunny on April 23, 2009, 04:40:46 PM
Maybe it's the low prices I paid for so many of their cds? When the label first started appearing at Amazon, the prices were comparable to record club prices, and I also have acquired quite a few of them at yourmusic.com (most of the Thomas Fey Haydn, for instance). Nowadays they have increased the prices, perhaps as a result of the weakened dollar? Who knows! But the label is not as cheap as CPO, but it's still not as expensive as say, DG or Carus (which is really "premium" pricing).
Actually, it's more expensive than Carus by a buck (at least at ArkivMusic).
Quote from: Bulldog on April 23, 2009, 06:03:23 PM
Actually, it's more expensive than Carus by a buck (at least at ArkivMusic).
They are an overpriced label (not quite as bad as hyperion) that frequently goes to overstock/overrun/clearance/cutout, etc, ending up at Berkshire or at bargain-bin prices at a variety of other retailers. I predict their Mahler cycle is like Lehman Brothers in July, ready to crash. I'll be there. If not, they can keep it.
Quote from: Bahamut on April 23, 2009, 01:49:55 PM
Now, the slow tempo applied to the opening movement of the 7th is just bizarre! ;D That movement is just bizarre anyways, but to make the whole thing sound so contemplative really is something- I'm not sure if I like it or not, but it's definitely welcome, and making this movement sound so incredibly different from what I'm used to (Solti) my make me even grow to love it more. :)
Chailly's slow first movement is one of the reasons I love his Mahler 7. Ditto Maazel's. But for the ultimate craziness you have to hear Klemperer, Greg. He launches the Allegro in the same tempo as the introductory Adagio :D
Maazel 24:22
Chailly 24:51
Klemperer 27:47
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 24, 2009, 03:49:05 AM
Chailly's slow first movement is one of the reasons I love his Mahler 7. Ditto Maazel's. But for the ultimate craziness you have to hear Klemperer, Greg. He launches the Allegro in the same tempo as the introductory Adagio :D
Maazel 24:22
Chailly 24:51
Klemperer 27:47
Sarge
I have that Klemp 7th somewhere hidden in my collection, too. And it is crazy slow, actually too slow for me. In fact, as I recall, Klemp's Mahler 7th took 2 cds which was a real eye opener -- probably the only 2 cd 7th around. As I recall, Klemp got lost in the details so that the symphony never really hung together and had a sort of "pastîche" feeling. Right now the 7ths I prize the most are by Hans Zender, Gary Bertini, Lenny (NYPO)and Daniel Barenboim's more recent release (best sound of the three). Second after them would have to be Kubelik's, and Michael Tilson Thomas with the London SO.
I'll have to get out Chailly's 7th and listen again. Slow approaches can be effective with Mahler, also speedy tempos can work as well; only consider Wyn Morris's 5th!
Quote from: nut-job on April 23, 2009, 06:22:39 PM
They are an overpriced label (not quite as bad as hyperion) that frequently goes to overstock/overrun/clearance/cutout, etc, ending up at Berkshire or at bargain-bin prices at a variety of other retailers. I predict their Mahler cycle is like Lehman Brothers in July, ready to crash. I'll be there. If not, they can keep it.
Funny, but for years Arkiv couldn't distribute the label. I seem to vaguely remember seeing Hänssler described as a "moderate" priced label before they signed with Arkiv. Around the time they let Arkiv distribute their cds, the prices started to rise. I know that Gielen's cds are among the most expensive that they issue, although Thomas Fey's Haydn still shows up at the BMG music clubs along with some of their more esoteric releases. That was also where I picked up a number of their Koechlin cds. Of course at BMG the cds are priced very well.
Quote from: Bunny on April 24, 2009, 06:30:44 AM
Funny, but for years Arkiv couldn't distribute the label. I seem to vaguely remember seeing Hänssler described as a "moderate" priced label before they signed with Arkiv. Around the time they let Arkiv distribute their cds, the prices started to rise. I know that Gielen's cds are among the most expensive that they issue, although Thomas Fey's Haydn still shows up at the BMG music clubs along with some of their more esoteric releases. That was also where I picked up a number of their Koechlin cds. Of course at BMG the cds are priced very well.
Their Fey Cds are also listed as $19.99 at Amazon, although new copies are often steeply discounted by marketplace sellers (not to mention Berkshire). Economically, they can go for high price, low sales, high margin, or low price, high sales, slim margin. There is more than one way to make money, but given what the competition is doing, I suspect the high price large margin route will become less viable. Certainly I ain't buying at their current Mahler price point. Bertini chronically lingers in my shopping cart.
Quote from: nut-job on April 24, 2009, 07:07:36 AM
Bertini chronically lingers in my shopping cart.
It was certainly easier pulling the trigger last year. :'(
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 24, 2009, 03:49:05 AM
Chailly's slow first movement is one of the reasons I love his Mahler 7. Ditto Maazel's. But for the ultimate craziness you have to hear Klemperer, Greg. He launches the Allegro in the same tempo as the introductory Adagio :D
Maazel 24:22
Chailly 24:51
Klemperer 27:47
Sarge
:D
Moving on to Kubelik soon... heard his first so far- nice, but I can't say it's my favorite- might have to choose Bernstein for that.
I have an idea- to make the ultimate Mahler cycle playlist. So far, here's my list of favorites:
1- Bernstein
2- Jansons
3- Chailly
4- Szell
5- Chailly
6- Chailly
7- Solti
8- Solti
9- Karajan
10- Chailly
I think there was a thread about this already, though... oh well. Just saying, for now.
Quote from: Bunny on April 24, 2009, 06:30:44 AM
I know that Gielen's cds are among the most expensive that they issue...
I'm somewhat alleviating the financial pain of the Gielen cycle by spreading out the purchases over years, and by looking for bargains: in cut-out-bins (acquired 4 and 10 that way) and by buying from Amazon sellers. My latest purchase, the Sixth, cost €17 instead of the €28,99 list at JPC or Amazon.
Quote from: Bunny on April 24, 2009, 06:13:07 AM
I have that Klemp 7th somewhere hidden in my collection, too. And it is crazy slow, actually too slow for me.
Way too slow for most, and the ensemble is a little slack too. The orchestra probably had difficulty following Klemp's fist ;D But I do love it. It's really gotten inside me. The first
Nachtmusik is modern magic: you can imagine where Webern derived his pointillistic style when you hear Mahler's movement at this slow speed. And the Scherzo is the spookiest I've ever heard.
QuoteI recall, Klemp got lost in the details so that the symphony never really hung together...
A valid criticism I can't dispute. However, since I love to revel (and, in this case, wallow) in the details of symphonic music, Klemp gives me what I want...and in spades 8)
QuoteRight now the 7ths I prize the most are by Hans Zender, Gary Bertini, Lenny (NYPO)and Daniel Barenboim's more recent release (best sound of the three). Second after them would have to be Kubelik's, and Michael Tilson Thomas with the London SO.
Here are the Sevenths I own; favorites in bold:
SOLTI CHICAGO
BERNSTEIN NY PHIL (SONY)CHAILLY CONCERTGEBOUWBERTINI KÖLNER RSO
BARENBOIM STAATS BERLINABBADO CHICAGO
KUBELIK SOBR
HAITINK CONCERTGEBOUW
TENNSTEDT LPO
SINOPOLI PHILHARMONIA
KLEMPERER NEW PHILHNEUMANN CZECH PHIL
GIELEN SWR SO BADEN BADEN
RATTLE CBSO
MAAZEL VIENNA PHILI haven't heard Sinopoli yet. I should dig that out soon.
Sarge
Quote from: Bahamut on April 24, 2009, 11:33:24 AM
I have an idea- to make the ultimate Mahler cycle playlist. So far, here's my list of favorites:
1- Bernstein
2- Jansons
3- Chailly
4- Szell
5- Chailly
6- Chailly
7- Solti
8- Solti
9- Karajan
10- Chailly
I think, on this fine spring day, my list would look like this:
1 - Bernstein Concertgebouw
1 (with Blumine) - Judd Florida
2 - Kaplan Vienna Phil
3 - Haitink Concertgebouw
4 - Maazel Vienna Phil (with the glorious Kathleen Battle...heavenly singing)
5 - Neumann Leipzig (although a recent first hearing of the Dohnányi/Cleveland performance really impressed me...surprisingly: not nearly as cold and objective as the reviews implied)
6 - Solti Chicago
7 - Klemperer New Phil
8 - Chailly Concertgebouw
9 - Karajan Berlin
10 - Ormandy Philadelphia
Sarge
I've only heard 3 on that list, but I'm most likely going to listen to Kaplan, in maybe a week or two... seems like a recording with very mixed reviews. What do you like about it?
Quote from: Bahamut on April 25, 2009, 06:27:12 AM
I've only heard 3 on that list, but I'm most likely going to listen to Kaplan, in maybe a week or two... seems like a recording with very mixed reviews. What do you like about it?
Two things in particular:
The details: his intense, years-long study of the score paid off. You hear so many things so clearly that other conductors bury or ignore. One of the most obvious instances is the col legno episode just before the climax of the development in the first movement. When I've heard this symphony live, that effect has been startling in its immediacy and impact. And yet in almost every recording I own (and I own over 20) it can't be heard clearly...sometimes not at all.
The tempos: which seem to me perfect at almost every point in the symphony.
Unlike the other recordings I own, there is nothing that disappoints (well, maybe the Scherzo could be a little more intense, but that's a minor issue) and much that stands out as unique. It just sounds right to me.
Sarge
Sounds like I can't wait to listen. :)
Quote from: Bahamut on April 25, 2009, 07:18:18 AM
Sounds like I can't wait to listen. :)
If and when you hear it, I'd be interested in your impressions. Kaplan polarizes Mahler fans. I think some people can't get beyond his "amateur conductor" status and it prejudices them. It's my contention that if heard blind, not knowing who the conductor is, some, maybe most of the naysayers would hear it more positively. Time for another mystery thread :D
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 25, 2009, 04:18:30 AM
SOLTI CHICAGO
BERNSTEIN NY PHIL (SONY)
CHAILLY CONCERTGEBOUW
BERTINI KÖLNER RSO
BARENBOIM STAATS BERLIN
ABBADO CHICAGO
KUBELIK SOBR
HAITINK CONCERTGEBOUW
TENNSTEDT LPO
SINOPOLI PHILHARMONIA
KLEMPERER NEW PHILH
NEUMANN CZECH PHIL
GIELEN SWR SO BADEN BADEN
RATTLE CBSO
MAAZEL VIENNA PHIL
Interesting list, which suggests you and I are looking for much the same in this symphony (I am very attached to Barenboim, Chailly and the Sony Bernstein in it).
I wish the Toronto SO/Scherchen live recording of the first Canadian performance were still available. It's got everything wrong with it that you'd expect from that pairing, yet it manages to be both electrifying and insightful--and probably the darkest view of the work that I've ever heard. (Oh, and he gets through it in, what, 67 minutes with no cuts?)
Quote from: edward on April 25, 2009, 07:35:59 AM
I wish the Toronto SO/Scherchen live recording of the first Canadian performance were still available. It's got everything wrong with it that you'd expect from that pairing...
:D ;) :D
Yes, Scherchen's Mahler was always wrong, but never less than fascinating, and utterly compelling listening. I'll keep an eye out for that performance.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 25, 2009, 07:29:47 AM
If and when you hear it, I'd be interested in your impressions. Kaplan polarizes Mahler fans. I think some people can't get beyond his "amateur conductor" status and it prejudices them. It's my contention that if heard blind, not knowing who the conductor is, some, maybe most of the naysayers would hear it more positively. Time for another mystery thread :D
Sarge
Sarge, how does his earlier LSO effort compare with the newer one?
Quote from: imperfection on April 25, 2009, 01:13:34 PM
Sarge, how does his earlier LSO effort compare with the newer one?
Wow, it's been years since I last heard the LSO version. I'll do a comparitive listen soon and get back to you.
Sarge
Quote from: Bunny on April 23, 2009, 07:33:00 AMIs it the best cycle available? Most say Bertini's cycle is the "best" but Gielen's is at least as good, but at double the price.
(http://www.haenssler-classic.de/fileadmin/mediafiles/scm_shopproduct/Bilder/gross/093130000.JPG)
I have Gielen's M7, and never play it. Don't know why. I just decide halfway through that I could be listening to another, better, version, so I switch.
Quote from: Bunny on April 24, 2009, 06:13:07 AM
I have that Klemp 7th somewhere hidden in my collection, too. And it is crazy slow, actually too slow for me. In fact, as I recall, Klemp's Mahler 7th took 2 cds which was a real eye opener -- probably the only 2 cd 7th around. As I recall, Klemp got lost in the details so that the symphony never really hung together and had a sort of "pastîche" feeling. Right now the 7ths I prize the most are by Hans Zender, Gary Bertini, Lenny (NYPO)and Daniel Barenboim's more recent release (best sound of the three).
I like Barenboim's, too. It's going OOP, I think. At least, you can buy it cheaply at broinc.com or Amazon Marketplace.
I just turned on Chailly's M7, and I agree, "pastiche" is an excellent word to describe both this first movement, and as well much of the rest of his Mahler. Some of the little moments are just wonderful, and I anticipate listening to this a lot this year, unless I lose interest in Mahler entirely (which has been known to happen).
Did the Klemperer M7 come with a dark green booklet about 20 years ago? I had some version that did that was ever so recommended, but I didn't like it much, preferring both Bernsteins and the first Abbado.
Quote from: nut-job on April 24, 2009, 07:07:36 AMCertainly I ain't buying at their current Mahler price point. Bertini chronically lingers in my shopping cart.
It's under $40 at mdt.co.uk: http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/pages/product/product.asp?ctgry=&prod=3402382
Quote from: Bahamut on April 24, 2009, 11:33:24 AMI have an idea- to make the ultimate Mahler cycle playlist. So far, here's my list of favorites:
1- Bernstein
2- Jansons
3- Chailly
4- Szell
5- Chailly
6- Chailly
7- Solti
8- Solti
9- Karajan
10- Chailly
1. Judd
2. Solti/LSO. This isn't my favorite, but one I've just heard for the first time recently, in Universal's THE ORIGINALS series. And I think it's freaking WONDERFUL. I am able to like a whole lot of different versions of this one, whereas with some, there is
one right version, and
one right version only.
3. Bernstein CBS. Or maybe Chailly, which is new to me.
4. HVK
5. Bernstein DG
6. Bernstein CBS
7. There are so many I like. Old: both Bernsteins, Abbado. New: Barenboim, Tilson-Thomas
8. Bernstein CBS, Chailly, Sinopoli
9. Bernstein CBS, Tennstedt (new to me)
Mine currently:
1. Sinopoli/RAI or Kubelik/BRSO (Deutsche Grammophon)
2. Solti/CSO or Bernstein/NYPO (Deutsche Grammophon) or Kubelik/BRSO (Deutsche Grammphon)
3. Bernstein/NYPO (Deutsche Grammophon)
4. Sinopoli/Dresden Staatskapelle
5. Karajan/BPO
6. Bernstein/VPO
7. Abbado/CSO (about to become Barenboim/Berlin Staatskapelle, though)
Haven't heard from 8 onwards
Still can't decide on my ultimate cycle, but this is what I have on my iPod today:
1. Michael Gielen & SWR SO Baden-Baden & Freiburg / Kubelik (DG)
2. Ivan Fischer & Budapest Festival Orchestra / Slatkin & St. Louis SO / Urlicht and Finale from MTT&SF SO for Lorraine Hunt Lieberson's sublime singing.
3. Jesús Lopez-Cobos & Cincinatti SO / Boulez & SK Berlin
4. Levi & Atlanta SO / Fischer & Budapest Festival Orch.
5. Barshai & Junge Deutsche Philharmonie / Daniele Gatti & Royal Philharmonic
6. Eiji Oue & Osaka PO / MacKerras & BBC Philharmonic/ Fischer & Budapest FO
7. Barenboim & SK Berlin
8. Solti & CSO / Gielen & SWR SO Baden-Baden & Freiburg
9. Ancerl & Czech PO/ Chailly & Royal Concertgebouw Amst.
DLVE: Eiji Oue & Minnesota
10 Reconstruction Barshai: Barshai & Junge Deutsche Philharmonie
10 Cooke Completion: Gielen & SWR SO Baden-Baden & Freiburg
Quote from: Bunny on April 28, 2009, 05:54:12 AM
Still can't decide on my ultimate cycle, but this is what I have on my iPod today...
My iPod generally has one complete Mahler cycle on it that rotates every few months or so (was Chailly for a long while, currently Sinopoli), as well as a few key performances that permanently reside there (Barbirolli in 2, 5, 6 ,& 9, Ancerl's 9, Bernstein's DG 3), and perhaps one or two recent acquisitions (currently Solti's LSO 2, the only Mahler CD I've bought in ages). I've kind of maxed out on Mahler, though I suppose I may pick up Tilson-Thomas or Gergiev when the inevitable boxsets come out.
I don't think I could put together a top set -- Mahler's music is so rich, nobody gets every aspect of it right. Glad I don't have to. :)
I might have to edit my list a bit.... for 2, I might choose Boulez, after revisiting it again today. (I only have a live version which was posted here). I might even choose Boulez for 6, now that I think about it... maybe Chailly is too slow in that one? To be honest, what'd be best would be Boulez all the way through except for the Andante, where I'd prefer Karajan. Maybe there's a recording out there like that? ;D
Quote from: Bahamut on April 28, 2009, 12:35:29 PM
I might have to edit my list a bit.... for 2, I might choose Boulez, after revisiting it again today. (I only have a live version which was posted here). I might even choose Boulez for 6, now that I think about it... maybe Chailly is too slow in that one? To be honest, what'd be best would be Boulez all the way through except for the Andante, where I'd prefer Karajan. Maybe there's a recording out there like that? ;D
Chailly's 6 strike me as being sapped out of energy and lifeless (especially in the first couple movements,
and there aren't that many of them).
I kind of get that impression the second time around... I do like the slow tempo for the beginning though- in fact, I generally like slow tempos to start off anything. Why rush, you're just starting? But take it too slow and it nearly breaks apart and loses cohesiveness. Phrasing can end up sounding timid. That's why I like Boulez- perfect tempo, and played with vigor- and definitely not rushed-sounding.
Listening to the first movement of the Kaplan/London... can't say I like it much so far. The orchestra doesn't sound big enough, and the dynamic range is slightly too large. The big crashing part nearly the middle with the triplet dischords sound like they're coming from a toy orchestra. He does play the slow part a few minutes from the end very well, very slow like it should sound. I'll listen to the rest later. Just first impressions...
Quote from: Bahamut on April 28, 2009, 07:27:27 PM
Listening to the first movement of the Kaplan/London... can't say I like it much so far. The orchestra doesn't sound big enough, and the dynamic range is slightly too large. The big crashing part nearly the middle with the triplet dischords sound like they're coming from a toy orchestra. He does play the slow part a few minutes from the end very well, very slow like it should sound. I'll listen to the rest later. Just first impressions...
For a completely awesome first movement, try Kubelik. That man is a friggin' poet.
Quote from: Bahamut on April 28, 2009, 07:27:27 PM
Listening to the first movement of the Kaplan/London... can't say I like it much so far. The orchestra doesn't sound big enough, and the dynamic range is slightly too large. The big crashing part nearly the middle with the triplet dischords sound like they're coming from a toy orchestra. He does play the slow part a few minutes from the end very well, very slow like it should sound. I'll listen to the rest later. Just first impressions...
Yes, that LSO recording doesn't have the greatest sound. It's two-dimensional and tinny compared to the recording DG gave Kaplan in Vienna. That's one reason I prefer the Vienna version. Tempos are more expansive in Vienna which I thnk is another plus for that recording. Where the LSO version really shines is in the quality of the solo singing, far superior to Kaplan's soloists in Vienna.
Sarge
Quote from: Bahamut on April 28, 2009, 07:27:27 PM
Listening to the first movement of the Kaplan/London... can't say I like it much so far. The orchestra doesn't sound big enough, and the dynamic range is slightly too large. The big crashing part nearly the middle with the triplet dischords sound like they're coming from a toy orchestra. He does play the slow part a few minutes from the end very well, very slow like it should sound. I'll listen to the rest later. Just first impressions...
As I recall, the orchestra play was better in the Vienna recording, although I believe the singing was better in the London recording. It doesn't really matter to me, though, because after repeated listenings to both of Kaplan's recordings they lost their luster. With respect to insight into the music, neither recording delivers more than the other. Kaplan wasn't learning anything new between the recordings. Neither is particularly deep or insightful and neither stands up over time. I don't really understand LeBrecht's fascination with Kaplan, but my romance with the man is over. For more satisfying 2nds I reach in no particular order for Mehta, Fischer, Gielen, Slatkin, Kubelik, Bernstein, Klemperer (one cd!) and some others. I will admit that the SACD versions have been getting more air time. My Kaplan cd and SACD gather dust on the shelf.
Quote from: Bahamut on April 28, 2009, 12:35:29 PM
I might have to edit my list a bit.... for 2, I might choose Boulez, after revisiting it again today. (I only have a live version which was posted here). I might even choose Boulez for 6, now that I think about it... maybe Chailly is too slow in that one? To be honest, what'd be best would be Boulez all the way through except for the Andante, where I'd prefer Karajan. Maybe there's a recording out there like that? ;D
Which Boulez are you thinking of: the cd with the VPO or the dvd with the SK Berlin? I don't care for the cd at all. There's also a bootleg live Mahler 2nd that I've heard but don't own. I'm not sure, but it may be the same recording as the dvd. I've only heard it once at a friend's house. That was better than the DG recording as well.
If you want a speedy Mahler 6th, then look to Levi or Mitropoulos -- although I believe they both eliminate the repeat.
Quote from: Bunny on April 29, 2009, 06:32:43 AM
With respect to insight into the music, neither recording delivers more than the other. Kaplan wasn't learning anything new between the recordings. Neither is particularly deep or insightful and neither stands up over time.
I don't agree with you at all. In my opinion Kaplan in Vienna gets almost everything right--certainly those key moments that I listen for and want perfect--and the performance has held up well to repeated hearings. All the recordings you mention have serious defects that keep them from being at the top of the pile although all are worthy contenders (the Slatkin surprised me how good it is).
To present a counter view about the Vienna performance:
"As to Kaplan's interpretation, it's mostly excellent. This first movement must be accounted one of the finest on disc--marvelously played by cellos and basses, the big moments pegged for all that they are worth, the second subject and quiet episodes gorgeously sustained and atmospheric. Kaplan times those tricky "breath pauses" at the movement's climax just about perfectly (note the changed position of the third cymbal crash), and no one makes more musical sense out of the closing measures--the trumpet swells to a real fortissimo, exactly as Mahler wrote it, with the final downward scale positively cataclysmic. The same virtues apply to the Andante moderato: ideal tempo, shapely phrasing, and beautiful string tone add up to as fine a view as you're likely to hear."
"No one realizes more effectively than Kaplan that troublesome moment just before the end when the "resurrection theme" gets banged out by timpani doubled by organ pedals, and you won't hear the final crescendo leading to that "punched out" last chord better handled by anyone, anywhere."
"In the final analysis, Mahlerians will want to hear it for Kaplan's own thoroughly sympathetic and cogent view of the music, one that should put to rest once and for all any questions doubters may have about his credentials as a true Mahler conductor with something to say and the technical means to say it."
Full review here (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=7006) This is one Hurwitz review I fully agree with.
Sarge
Haven't been listening to Mahler for ages, but I'm gonna throw a list in, without any thinking ;):
1: Kubelik
2: Fischer
3: Haitink/Concertgebouw live Kerstmatinee
4: Kubelik
5: Bernstein (Wiener Phil) & Barshai ex aequo
6: Barbirolli
7: Abbado/Chicago SO
8: Solti/Chicago SO
DLvdE: Klemperer
9: Haitink/Concertgebouw studio recording
10: Inbal/Frankfurt
But I share the feelings of member jwinter: I've kind of maxed out on Mahler, too. Also it's not really possible to put together a favourite list, and I agree with his argumentation.
Quote from: imperfection on April 28, 2009, 08:07:39 PM
For a completely awesome first movement, try Kubelik. That man is a friggin' poet.
I have, a few days ago. Now, it was only one listening, but I didn't like the 2nd or 3rd symphonies (1 is perfectly fine). I'm working my way through his set, and am at 4 right now (first few minutes sound great...)
I also listened to the Adagio of the 10th, and it was painful to listen to... I don't know what he had in mind for it- it's so
straightforward. Why conduct something like that that way? What is he aiming for in conducting it like that? I don't get it.
Quote from: Bunny on April 29, 2009, 06:32:43 AM
Which Boulez are you thinking of: the cd with the VPO or the dvd with the SK Berlin? I don't care for the cd at all. There's also a bootleg live Mahler 2nd that I've heard but don't own. I'm not sure, but it may be the same recording as the dvd. I've only heard it once at a friend's house. That was better than the DG recording as well.
If you want a speedy Mahler 6th, then look to Levi or Mitropoulos -- although I believe they both eliminate the repeat.
I'm talking about the CD.
Quote from: Bahamut on April 29, 2009, 12:05:18 PM
I have, a few days ago. Now, it was only one listening, but I didn't like the 2nd or 3rd symphonies (1 is perfectly fine). I'm working my way through his set, and am at 4 right now (first few minutes sound great...)
I also listened to the Adagio of the 10th, and it was painful to listen to... I don't know what he had in mind for it- it's so straightforward. Why conduct something like that that way? What is he aiming for in conducting it like that? I don't get it.
I'm talking about the CD.
His straightforwardness is his trademark, whether in conducting Mahler or Bruckner or anything else...and it works surprisingly well. I like how natural everything is made to sound, all ideas are connected smoothly together, instead of being episodic and just having random climaxes here and there in attempt to create superficial excitement. IMO, Kubelik is incredible in presenting a work using storytelling.
Quote from: imperfection on April 29, 2009, 05:16:18 PM
His straightforwardness is his trademark, whether in conducting Mahler or Bruckner or anything else...and it works surprisingly well. I like how natural everything is made to sound, all ideas are connected smoothly together, instead of being episodic and just having random climaxes here and there in attempt to create superficial excitement. IMO, Kubelik is incredible in presenting a work using storytelling.
Agreed. Kubelik's Mahler is just very natural-sounding to me...a perfect example of a conductor whose performances may superficially seem straightforward and middle-of-the-road, but in fact bring out a lot of the details that sometimes get brushed over.
His recording of the First is certainly my favourite of the ones I've heard, and the live
Das Lied with Baker and Kmentt is without doubt one of my desert island recordings.
Quote from: edward on April 29, 2009, 06:00:13 PM
Agreed. Kubelik's Mahler is just very natural-sounding to me...a perfect example of a conductor whose performances may superficially seem straightforward and middle-of-the-road, but in fact bring out a lot of the details that sometimes get brushed over.
His recording of the First is certainly my favourite of the ones I've heard, and the live Das Lied with Baker and Kmentt is without doubt one of my desert island recordings.
Yes, I too, love the first very much. The second as well. Have you heard it?
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 29, 2009, 06:47:32 AM
I don't agree with you at all. In my opinion Kaplan in Vienna gets almost everything right--certainly those key moments that I listen for and want perfect--and the performance has held up well to repeated hearings. All the recordings you mention have serious defects that keep them from being at the top of the pile although all are worthy contenders (the Slatkin surprised me how good it is).
To present a counter view about the Vienna performance:
"As to Kaplan's interpretation, it's mostly excellent. This first movement must be accounted one of the finest on disc--marvelously played by cellos and basses, the big moments pegged for all that they are worth, the second subject and quiet episodes gorgeously sustained and atmospheric. Kaplan times those tricky "breath pauses" at the movement's climax just about perfectly (note the changed position of the third cymbal crash), and no one makes more musical sense out of the closing measures--the trumpet swells to a real fortissimo, exactly as Mahler wrote it, with the final downward scale positively cataclysmic. The same virtues apply to the Andante moderato: ideal tempo, shapely phrasing, and beautiful string tone add up to as fine a view as you're likely to hear."
"No one realizes more effectively than Kaplan that troublesome moment just before the end when the "resurrection theme" gets banged out by timpani doubled by organ pedals, and you won't hear the final crescendo leading to that "punched out" last chord better handled by anyone, anywhere."
"In the final analysis, Mahlerians will want to hear it for Kaplan's own thoroughly sympathetic and cogent view of the music, one that should put to rest once and for all any questions doubters may have about his credentials as a true Mahler conductor with something to say and the technical means to say it."
Full review here (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=7006) This is one Hurwitz review I fully agree with.
Sarge
This review is only true if you accept that Kaplan actually did more than wave his arms in front of the WP. Unfortunately, Kaplan's success usually rests on the arms of the concertmaster, who carefully rehearses the orchestra. He's sadly overrated, and I still don't find his Vienna recording at the top of my heap. For a really close reading of the score with insight, compare it to Ivan Fischer's recording. That's my top 2nd right now and his orchestra actually plays with gusto, and includes women.
Re Slatkin: It's strange to hear his early Mahler. He actually had some fire in that belly of his back then.
Sarge,
Here's what a musician in the orchestra wrote about Kaplan's conducting. When you consider the DG recording, only consider the wizardry that can (and usually does) go on in the studio during production and in the case of "live" performances, post-production.
December 15, 2008
Some words about Gilbert Kaplan's "conducting"
Catch Me (Him) If You Can
I enjoy collecting movies on DVD. One of my favorites is the feature movie "Catch Me If You Can." It is a true story from the 1960's, of a young man, Frank Abagnale played by Leonardo Dicaprio, who manages to impersonate a doctor, a lawyer, an airline pilot and in the process also becomes a masterful counterfeiter. His expertise in the latter allows him to cash bad checks in excess of four million dollars. FBI agent, Carl Hanratty, portrayed by no less than Tom Hanks, chases him throughout the world. Of course, the Feds get their man and our protagonist turns his talents to helping law enforcement to catch similar crooks and thieves. In the end, the villain is repentant and the public and law officials are left somewhat less naive. A happy ending of sorts.
Impersonators, alas, still seem to rise to the surface. I contend that the story of another impersonator is continuing to be written. It is the story of Gilbert Kaplan. Mr. Kaplan is a self-professed scholar and conductor of Mahler's great second symphony, The Resurrection. While admittedly, I may be stretching the comparison beyond the breaking point, Mr. Kaplan and Frank Abagnale are and were, in my opinion, both impostors.
I have come to this conclusion from first hand experience. On December 8, 2008, Mr. Kaplan took the podium in front of the New York Philharmonic. My colleagues and I gave what we could to this rudderless performance but the evening proved to be nothing more than a simplistic reading of a very wonderful piece of music.
There can be no other conclusion. To say that it was something more is to be ignorant of the many truly inspired performances under the batons of some of the world's great conductors. This masterpiece has had a century of interpretations that have delved into all aspects of Mr. Mahler's brilliant score. The list of quality performances led by professional conductors is long. From Arturo T. to Zubin M., the admirers of this work can find solace in many recordings that contain true passion and an understanding of the symphony.
Having not previously heard either of Mr. Kaplan's two recordings of the symphony, nor having seen him conduct, I came to our rehearsals with an open mind. My initial impression was that Mr. Kaplan displays an arrogance and self-delusion that is off-putting. As a conductor, he can best be described as a very poor beater of time who far too often is unable to keep the ensemble together and allows most tempo transitions to fall where they may. His direction lacks few indications of dynamic control or balance and there is absolutely no attempt to give phrases any requisite shape. In rehearsal, he admitted to our orchestra that he is not capable of keeping a steady tempo and that he would have to depend on us for any stability in that department. Considering his Everest-sized ego, this admission must have caused him great consternation upon reflection. Mahler's wonderful use of the off stage brass in the fifth movement gave Kaplan much tribulation. One would think that after more than fifty performances of the work, even the most plebeian of conductors would have some understanding of how to bring together musicians that are separated by great distance. In the performance, these haunting moments of the symphony slipped away like some wayward musical slinky.
I have to take extreme exception to the many reviews I have read of his performances. Some critics have written that he brings the finest details of the work to the surface. If his past performances were anything like ours, Mr. Kaplan excels in ignoring the blizzard of Mahler's performance direction.
Yet, he sold out the house. "Or should I say, Mahler sold out the house?" It seems that this work, regardless of whoever takes the podium, never fails to attract a large audience, an obvious testimony to the strength of the composition. Mr. Kaplan's attempts seem to embody the proof that a mediocre performance is still worth the price of admission. But do most audience members, and seemingly most critics for that matter, really understand that he comes to the podium unable to bring to the surface any of Mahler's darkness, pensiveness, and schizophrenia?
Members of symphony orchestras truly have an unfair advantage over their audience. The musicians sit through countless rehearsals of a composition and are able to witness the culmination of careful, skillful study of a score combined with the conductor's ability to communicate his or her ideas clearly. At its best, the preparation of any great composition for concert should always be a profound, intimate and introspective journey shared between the interpreter and the instrumentalist. This is the intent of the composer and should never be compromised. When musicians are denied that journey, they feel cheated, marginalized and estranged from what they hold so dear.
Mr. Kaplan and his assault on conducting leave many musicians angry, bewildered and befuddled. I submit that Mr. Kaplan has succeeded in drawing an audience because of the wide popularity of Mahler's great symphony and our culture's intrinsic want to see someone break down barriers that have remained seemingly impenetrable. The Cinderella story is one of our favorites; Arnold Schwarzenegger is just one such case. This Hollywood movie idol pushed aside many "professional" politicians to become governor of one of the largest states of our country. The actor Ronald Reagan, the golfer Bobby Jones, the starlet discovered in a coffee shop, the prizefighter who sends the reigning champ to the mat, the American hockey team beating the Russians in the Olympics in 1980 and, of course, David and Goliath - the list could go on and on with underdogs or amateurs who have "beat the odds". More recently, John McCain and Sarah Palin would have liked to join the ranks of famous long shots but, alas, the collective wisdom deemed them unqualified. All professions have their way of culling the crowd.
But the Kaplan/Mahler Symphony No. 2 myth has a different twist. There is no giant to push aside. No champion to dethrone. Mr. Kaplan did not have to beat, win or even draw any gold medalist. With careful marketing, money and influence, this no-talent, self-proclaimed Mahler expert has made his way to the front of many of the world's leading orchestras relying totally on their collective talents and experience to pad his conducting résumé. Orchestra management after orchestra management has been complicit in perpetuating his woefully sad farce. At the end of the day, his worth to classical music has been totally overstated.
A word to all musicians: I maintain that we must take some of the responsibility in the blame for this predicament.
All artists must educate their audiences and their managements. We have failed to convince the powers that be how important it is always to put the most qualified conductors on the rostrum. If this had been clear to the managements of symphony orchestras, this man, regardless of how much money he is willing to throw at our feet, would never have taken a step on what should be hallowed ground. We owe it to ourselves, our public, and in this case, Mr. Mahler.
Much has been written about Mr. Kaplan's passion for Mahler's great symphony as if this emotion is unique to him. This assertion is an insult to all professional musicians who have dedicated their entire lives and have sacrificed much toward the preservation of all the great works of history's finest composers. His continued appearances are also an affront to all "real" conductors who have toiled relentlessly for the recognition they duly deserve.
In conclusion, there is no Carl Hanratty who will scour the planet to save us and the public from another fraudulent performance of this masterpiece and it is unlikely that we will ever witness a repentant Mr. Kaplan. We can rely only on ourselves to stand firm against any attempts to promote this imposter. In the end, we will need help to catch him if we can.
David Finlay, Trombone, NYPO (http://davidfinlayson.typepad.com/fin_notes/2008/12/index.html)
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 29, 2009, 06:47:32 AM
I don't agree with you at all. In my opinion Kaplan in Vienna gets almost everything right--certainly those key moments that I listen for and want perfect--and the performance has held up well to repeated hearings. All the recordings you mention have serious defects that keep them from being at the top of the pile although all are worthy contenders (the Slatkin surprised me how good it is).
To present a counter view about the Vienna performance:
"As to Kaplan's interpretation, it's mostly excellent. This first movement must be accounted one of the finest on disc--marvelously played by cellos and basses, the big moments pegged for all that they are worth, the second subject and quiet episodes gorgeously sustained and atmospheric. Kaplan times those tricky "breath pauses" at the movement's climax just about perfectly (note the changed position of the third cymbal crash), and no one makes more musical sense out of the closing measures--the trumpet swells to a real fortissimo, exactly as Mahler wrote it, with the final downward scale positively cataclysmic. The same virtues apply to the Andante moderato: ideal tempo, shapely phrasing, and beautiful string tone add up to as fine a view as you're likely to hear."
"No one realizes more effectively than Kaplan that troublesome moment just before the end when the "resurrection theme" gets banged out by timpani doubled by organ pedals, and you won't hear the final crescendo leading to that "punched out" last chord better handled by anyone, anywhere."
"In the final analysis, Mahlerians will want to hear it for Kaplan's own thoroughly sympathetic and cogent view of the music, one that should put to rest once and for all any questions doubters may have about his credentials as a true Mahler conductor with something to say and the technical means to say it."
Full review here (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=7006) This is one Hurwitz review I fully agree with.
Sarge
It's still not a top tier 2nd, and certainly not by Hurwitz's standards. He gave it an 8/8, and summed up this way:
This is, then, a very fine (if a touch studied) Mahler Second, though not quite a first choice. Btw, I have yet to hear any Mahler that reaches the impossible level of "perfection," there are only performances that approach that limit.
Quote from: Bahamut on April 24, 2009, 11:33:24 AM
I have an idea- to make the ultimate Mahler cycle playlist.
This was an interesting exercise, for I learned something that surprised me very much. I began simply by listing my favorite recordings of each symphony—that is, those I return to most frequently because I find them most satisfying. They are listed in the order in which they came to mind. I could not pick one clear favorite for any except the 8th and 10th. Mahler is just too big and multi-faceted for any one approach to be utterly satisfying to the exclusion of all others, though to be well served he requires a virtuoso orchestra capable of voluptuousness as well as precision—and also demands reasonably good sound.
I like my Mahler expansive and emotional (Bernstein, especially late in life), taut and clear (Boulez), or expansive, thoughtful, and clear (MTT), but do not care for interpretations that are clinical, maudlin, or bombastic. What surprised me is that the three conductors just named claim top spots in my heart for virtually every one of the symphonies. Take all three of their cycles (Lennie on DGG), add Nagano in the 8th and Barshai in the 5th and 10th, and you have most of my faves.
I also much admire Kubelik, Bertini, and Chailly, even though few of their individual symphony recordings make my list of faves at this time. Their complete cycles are unfailingly well-played, engaging, and tasteful with much to recommend them. Gielen seems likely to join these three on further acquaintance. (I don't own the set and have heard but few of his recordings, which share many of the virtues I admire in Boulez although I worry that Gielen may prove just a bit cool and detached.) Also, I've only recently begun to familiarize myself with Sinopoli's Mahler on DGG, but on the evidence so far I would not be surprised to see him join Lennie, MTT, and Boulez among my faves a year hence. Finally, note that this list merely expresses my personal preferences. I make no claims of exhaustive familiarity with every known recording and have no pretensions to expertise or to the sort of thoroughness represented by Tony Duggan's survey--nor do I share his obvious bias toward "Golden Age" recordings.
1: Bernstein/WP, Kubelik/BRSO (DGG), Boulez/CSO, MTT/SFS
2: Bernstein/NYPO (DGG), Abbado/CSO, Klemperer/Philharmonia, MTT/SFS, Boulez/WP, Mehta/WP
3: Boulez/WP, MTT/SFS, Bernstein/NYPO (DGG)
4: MTT/SFS, Boulez/CO, Fischer/BFO, Kubelik/BRSO (DGG)
5: Bernstein/WP, Barshai/JDP, MTT/SFS, Boulez/WP
6: Boulez/WP, MTT/SFS, Bernstein/WP
7: MTT/SFS, Abbado/CSO, MTT/LSO, Boulez/CO, Bernstein/NYPO (DGG)
8: Nagano/DSOB
DLvdE: Boulez/WP, Klemperer/Philharmonia, Haitink/RCO, Kubelik/BRSO (Audite), MTT/SFS
9: Bernstein/RCO, MTT/SFS, Boulez/CSO, Haitink/RCO
10: Barshai/JDP
Whoa, everyone is acting like I invented the very idea of a Mahler playlist! :o
(i'm pretty sure I've seen these lists before...)
Well, David, I have to say, out of the lists I've seen so far, yours seems to be the closest to my tastes, although that's only looking at conductor.....
Quote
I like my Mahler expansive and emotional (Bernstein, especially late in life), taut and clear (Boulez), or expansive, thoughtful, and clear (MTT)
Very good things to look for- especially if you can find them all in the same package.
Quote from: DavidRoss on April 30, 2009, 07:22:33 AM
Barshai in the 5th and 10th
I just bought this one, and given the amount of praise it's received, am looking very forward to hearing it.
I have another (personal) reason to be interested in this recording. I heard Barshai and the orchestra perform his version of the 10th in Prague on Sept. 14, 2001 - just 2 days after they recorded it, and just 3 days after 9/11. Barshai dedicated the concert to the victims of that. I remembered the story of the NY fireman's death, and how his funeral inspired the drum hits in the finale. Chilling, and rather poignant, in context.
I looked over this thread, and I'm surprised how rarely Gielen was mentioned! Out of all of the recordings that I've heard only his was definitive for every symphony.
Quote from: DavidW on June 30, 2009, 12:07:29 PM
I looked over this thread, and I'm surprised how rarely Gielen was mentioned! Out of all of the recordings that I've heard only his was definitive for every symphony.
If Gielen's cycle were less expensive, then more people would have it and more people would comment about it. I have it, I recognize its excellence, but it's probably one of the grimmest cycles around so I don't listen to it too often. Actually, the more Mahler I listen to, the less I listen to cycles and the more I find myself preferring individual symphonies culled from numerous cycles.
Btw, I don't think there are "definitive" Mahler cycles. It's a very crowded field and having the same point of view for each symphony has begun to tire me. I'm beginning to find that I want Mahler performances as individualized as possible. And multiples of each symphony as different as possible.
I'm going to skip that upstart anti-Mahler thread and post here. On our family road trip to the Grand Canyon, I listened to Mahler's Second for the first time - Fischer/Budapest, if you're curious. The last 10 minutes were enthralling - just what I was hoping for. Unfortunately, I thought that the first 72 were really, really uneven. :P I couldn't help wondering what the "Resurrection" was all about - because the music didn't seem to die or become elegiac before its uplifting end; it just went on and on and on (pausing for an out-of-place Viennese landler, of course). Then I realized that in a way Mahler had it right: my interest in the symphony had indeed died and, in the finale, been resurrected. Maybe that's what he was about!
Though I doubt it. :(
Quote from: Brian on July 01, 2009, 09:01:32 PM
I'm going to skip that upstart anti-Mahler thread and post here. On our family road trip to the Grand Canyon, I listened to Mahler's Second for the first time - Fischer/Budapest, if you're curious. The last 10 minutes were enthralling - just what I was hoping for. Unfortunately, I thought that the first 72 were really, really uneven. :P I couldn't help wondering what the "Resurrection" was all about - because the music didn't seem to die or become elegiac before its uplifting end; it just went on and on and on (pausing for an out-of-place Viennese landler, of course).
The symphony
begins with death. Then it's about looking back on life and forward to redemption. BTW, I think "family road trip to the Grand Canyon" may be one of the least ideal situations in which to listen to Mahler.
Quote from: Brian on July 01, 2009, 09:01:32 PM
Unfortunately, I thought that the first 72 were really, really uneven. :P I couldn't help wondering what the "Resurrection" was all about - because the music didn't seem to die or become elegiac before its uplifting end; it just went on and on and on (pausing for an out-of-place Viennese landler, of course).
Mahler acknowledged the problem with the second movement. He wrote in 1903:
Whereas the first, third, fourth and fifth movements are connected as to theme and atmosphere, the second stands alone and somewhat interrupts the austere progression of events. Perhaps this is a weakness in the plan, but my intention is certainly clear to you by now....the Andante is a kind of intermezzo (like the last echo of bygone days in the life of the man who was carried to his grave in the first movement-- "for the sun still smiles on him."In Mahler's original program the "resurrection" isn't about the music dying and coming back but about the hero of the First Symphony. The Second's first movement is his funeral rites and the first four movements ask the eternal questions:
What next? What is life? What is death? Will we live eternally? Is it all an empty dream or does our life have meaning? The Finale provides the answer.
Sarge
I think it'd probably be better if he would've just left that movement out.
Quote from: Brian on July 01, 2009, 09:01:32 PM
I'm going to skip that upstart anti-Mahler thread and post here. On our family road trip to the Grand Canyon, I listened to Mahler's Second for the first time - Fischer/Budapest, if you're curious. The last 10 minutes were enthralling - just what I was hoping for. Unfortunately, I thought that the first 72 were really, really uneven. :P I couldn't help wondering what the "Resurrection" was all about - because the music didn't seem to die or become elegiac before its uplifting end; it just went on and on and on (pausing for an out-of-place Viennese landler, of course). Then I realized that in a way Mahler had it right: my interest in the symphony had indeed died and, in the finale, been resurrected. Maybe that's what he was about!
More than most, Mahler's symphonies may require patient, repeated hearing for the sprawling mass to begin to make sense. I find it hard to imagine driving and listening to them--yet I do enjoy hearing DLVDE in the car. For me they require immersion: have plenty of time with no distractions, get comfortable, close my eyes, and let my soul get enmeshed with the music in a prolonged, voluptuous, sensuous encounter.
Quote from: Greg on July 02, 2009, 06:17:42 AM
I think it'd probably be better if he would've just left that movement out.
I'm glad he didn't eliminate it (like he did with the similarly toned
Blumine of the Titan). I think it adds a much needed pastoral respite between the
sturm und drang of the first movement, and the biting sarcasm of the third. Besides, it's so intensely lovely I can't imagine living without it. Greg, I predict you'll come to appreciate it as you grow older and more reflective. It might help, too, if you eventually spend time in the Alps, soaking up the atmosphere that nurtured Mahler's creativity.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 02, 2009, 07:11:21 AM
I'm glad he didn't eliminate it (like he did with the similarly toned Blumine of the Titan). I think it adds a much needed pastoral respite between the sturm und drang of the first movement, and the biting sarcasm of the third. Besides, it's so intensely lovely I can't imagine living without it. Greg, I predict you'll come to appreciate it as you grow older and more reflective. It might help, too, if you eventually spend time in the Alps, soaking up the atmosphere that nurtured Mahler's creativity.
Good suggestion, Sarge, which I heartily endorse--and not just so that he may better be able to appreciate Mahler! Greg, as you may recall, lives in Florida and has probably had little experience with mountains. Although they may lack the majesty and grandeur of the Alps, the Sierra Nevada, or the Rockies, the Smoky Mountains are not far away. A week or so hiking the Appalachian Trail would make a good start...and I bet Sonicman Dave would be happy to share a few tips!
Without that appreciation of God's world that comes from immersion in the grand sublimity of the natural world, I doubt it's possible to grasp the full spiritual dimension of Mahler's symphonies (or Sibelius's, either).
(http://igoyougo.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/yosemite20valley20view20panorama.jpg)
As I do not yet have a sizable collection of Mahler's works, I am seriously considering the following set ...
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51tKWrrM7PL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Quote from: Coopmv on July 03, 2009, 07:06:04 AM
As I do not yet have a sizable collection of Mahler's works, I am seriously considering the following set ...
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51tKWrrM7PL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Few would quibble with that as among the finest complete sets, and at a bargain price. At a similar bargain price, however, I suggest that you consider this one instead:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51HAQ5TPK1L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 03, 2009, 07:16:09 AM
Few would quibble with that as among the finest complete sets, and at a bargain price. At a similar bargain price, however, I suggest that you consider this one instead:
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The Bertini's set probably is a later recording and presumably has better sound?
Quote from: Coopmv on July 03, 2009, 07:19:15 AM
The Bertini's set probably is a later recording and presumably has better sound?
Yup. It's one of the few bargain sets with modern sound.
Quote from: DavidW on July 03, 2009, 07:41:21 AM
Yup. It's one of the few bargain sets with modern sound.
I am not familiar with Bertini and do not have a single recording by him ...
Quote from: Coopmv on July 03, 2009, 07:57:29 AM
I am not familiar with Bertini and do not have a single recording by him ...
He's kind of like Kubelik, well Kubelik is a little bit zippier, maybe kind of like Haitink. Well really inbetween the two in style. He really doesn't have any peculiarities like other conductors have, he's conservative in style, not terribly romantic but not modernist either. Almost classical in approach. If that makes any sense at all! :D
Aha got it he's like Klemperer but steadier on the tempo. :)
Quote from: DavidW on July 03, 2009, 08:06:54 AM
Aha got it he's like Klemperer but steadier on the tempo. :)
I have a good number of recordings by both Kubelik and Haitink, though my recordings by Klemperer are more limited to choral works such as St Matthew Passion and German Requiem. I am familiar with both Kubelik and Haitink but less so with Klemperer when it comes to non-vocal works ...
Quote from: Coopmv on July 03, 2009, 08:11:42 AM
I have a good number of recordings by both Kubelik and Haitink, though my recordings by Klemperer are more limited to choral works such as St Matthew Passion and German Requiem. I am familiar with both Kubelik and Haitink but less so with Klemperer when it comes to non-vocal works ...
Well Klemperer is all over the place with Mahler. His 2nd and 9th are fast, fast, fast and no sentimentality, but then look at the 7th! It's sooooo sloooooowwwww. Bertini captures that no sentimentality feeling of Klemperer but his pace is neither too fast nor too slow. That's why I compared him to Kubelik and Haitink because they also carry that let's not be indulgant style, but are clearly not modernist in interpretation either.
Quote from: DavidW on July 03, 2009, 08:17:49 AM
Well Klemperer is all over the place with Mahler. His 2nd and 9th are fast, fast, fast and no sentimentality, but then look at the 7th! It's sooooo sloooooowwwww. Bertini captures that no sentimentality feeling of Klemperer but his pace is neither too fast nor too slow. That's why I compared him to Kubelik and Haitink because they also carry that let's not be indulgant style, but are clearly not modernist in interpretation either.
Mahler is a tough nut to crack as far as I am concerned since I am primarily an early music guy ...
Quote from: Coopmv on July 03, 2009, 08:27:21 AM
Mahler is a tough nut to crack as far as I am concerned since I am primarily an early music guy ...
Ah then you might be more used to listening to the vertical aspect of the music. Horenstein might be your man, he's not my favorite conductor, but he excels at revealing that kind of detail. Boulez as well and in better sound.
Quote from: DavidW on July 03, 2009, 08:31:43 AM
Ah then you might be more used to listening to the vertical aspect of the music. Horenstein might be your man, he's not my favorite conductor, but he excels at revealing that kind of detail. Boulez as well and in better sound.
Boulez, indeed. His cycle has not been packaged as a set, yet. His 4th with Banse might be a good disc to try, but if you haven't the DLVDE already then I'd say go for that one first, as it's a terrific recording of Mahler's finest synthesis of symphony and song and it's not included in most of the boxsets you might otherwise consider. (Bertini's does include a good DLVDE, however.)
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 03, 2009, 08:59:30 AM
Boulez, indeed. His cycle has not been packaged as a set, yet. His 4th with Banse might be a good disc to try, but if you haven't the DLVDE already then I'd say go for that one first, as it's a terrific recording of Mahler's finest synthesis of symphony and song and it's not included in most of the boxsets you might otherwise consider. (Bertini's does include a good DLVDE, however.)
I just had to check, and I'm like huh he's recorded all nine symphonies and dlvde yet there's no box set. I don't understand. Does he have plans to record the 10th?
Quote from: DavidW on July 03, 2009, 08:31:43 AM
Ah then you might be more used to listening to the vertical aspect of the music. Horenstein might be your man, he's not my favorite conductor, but he excels at revealing that kind of detail. Boulez as well and in better sound.
I heard Horenstein before and he did not offer me anything ...
Quote from: DavidW on July 03, 2009, 09:06:14 AM
Does he have plans to record the 10th?
According to few interviews not even a slightest chance.
Quote from: DavidW on July 03, 2009, 09:06:14 AM
I just had to check, and I'm like huh he's recorded all nine symphonies and dlvde yet there's no box set. I don't understand. Does he have plans to record the 10th?
You're not alone. It helps to remember that marketers are usually imbeciles...which explains why marketing strategies are usually imbecilic. No doubt you've noticed that most companies seem to act on the premise that they should squeeze as much profit as possible out of a product at a higher price point before adjusting the price downward to attract a larger market segment. On the surface this makes a great deal of sense according to a very narrow set of criteria. It fails, however, to account for the loss of market share due to
(a) competition entering the market between setting the first and second price points above, which may substantially erode the probable sales volume at the lower price point, and
(b) resentment from potential buyers over the pricing policy manifested in resistance to purchase of any/all products from the manufacturer.
I suspect that Boulez/Mahler sales of single discs may still be trickling in and that DGG's marketers don't think the time is right yet to stimulate new sales by offering a mid/budget priced set--especially since Universal already has several steady sellers among Mahler box sets (Bernstein, Kubelik, Sinopoli, Abbado, Haitink, ...?).
Quote from: DavidW on July 03, 2009, 09:06:14 AM
I just had to check, and I'm like huh he's recorded all nine symphonies and dlvde yet there's no box set. I don't understand. Does he have plans to record the 10th?
No. Not to my knowledge.
And as to why no box set: The 8th just came out a few months ago... this was a cycle for which they took their merry time. Issuing a cycle is an economic move that brings down the price of the individual releases... so they'll probably wait another year before they do that, maybe/probably longer. Remember Rattle (who always insisted his recordings were "not a cycle")? His 8th was out for two years before the inevitable cycle follows. All a matter of the marketing departments' decisions. In this case neither unusual nor imbecilic (pace DavidRoss' insinuation that it might be so. ;D)
Perhaps on the occasion of a Mahler anniversary DG will release the Boulez as a cycle.
But how I wish that Boulez were to record a complete 10th. Alas...
Quote from: DavidRoss on July 02, 2009, 07:45:04 AM
Good suggestion, Sarge, which I heartily endorse--and not just so that he may better be able to appreciate Mahler! Greg, as you may recall, lives in Florida and has probably had little experience with mountains.
True...
So far, I've gone through Bertini's first 3. They're very good performances, though I like to hear all-out intensity sometimes, and he's not so much into that.
Quote from: Greg on July 03, 2009, 01:37:24 PM
So far, I've gone through Bertini's first 3. They're very good performances, though I like to hear all-out intensity sometimes, and he's not so much into that.
Greg, do you have a good all-out intensity M3 recommendation?
Well, for the whole symphony, I'm not sure that's possible :D, but basically my favorites, I'd say- Chailly gets pretty intense in the development sections of the first movement, and Tennstedt does so in the last movement. Bertini goes more for the sweeping, grand character that you prefer in the last movement.
Quote from: Greg on July 06, 2009, 05:44:23 AM
Well, for the whole symphony, I'm not sure that's possible :D, but basically my favorites, I'd say- Chailly gets pretty intense in the development sections of the first movement, and Tennstedt does so in the last movement. Bertini goes more for the sweeping, grand character that you prefer in the last movement.
Awesome, thanks :)
Quote from: Greg on July 06, 2009, 05:44:23 AM
Well, for the whole symphony, I'm not sure that's possible :D, but basically my favorites, I'd say- Chailly gets pretty intense in the development sections of the first movement, and Tennstedt does so in the last movement. Bertini goes more for the sweeping, grand character that you prefer in the last movement.
Chailly? Tennstedt!? Those are mediocre recordings.
Quote from: imperfection on July 06, 2009, 03:07:08 AM
Greg, do you have a good all-out intensity M3 recommendation?
My favorites are Levine/Chicago, Horenstein/LSO and Bernstein/NY Phil (Sony). Horenstein has an incredibly intense, raucous first movement (the recording balance adds to the excitement, emphasizing brass and timpani). Levine's
Bimm bamm movement is unique for the dark undercurrents he discovers running through this normally cheerful piece; Marilyn Horne is sensational in both her movements. And Bernstein is Bernstein; no need to elaborate ;D
That said, I also really enjoy Chailly. He has the greatest Mahler band at his disposal. Haitink is also worth hearing with this orchestra; their intensity in the final pages is unbeatable.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 08, 2009, 06:00:07 AM
Levine's Bimm bamm movement is unique for the dark undercurrents he discovers running through this normally cheerful piece
Mitropoulos, Koln, Tahra
Quote from: Drasko on July 08, 2009, 06:11:47 AM
Mitropoulos, Koln, Tahra
I haven't heard that one...I'll check it out. Thanks, Drasko.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 08, 2009, 06:00:07 AM
My favorites are Levine/Chicago, Horenstein/LSO and Bernstein/NY Phil (Sony). Horenstein has an incredibly intense, raucous first movement (the recording balance adds to the excitement, emphasizing brass and timpani). Levine's Bimm bamm movement is unique for the dark undercurrents he discovers running through this normally cheerful piece; Marilyn Horne is sensational in both her movements. And Bernstein is Bernstein; no need to elaborate ;D
That said, I also really enjoy Chailly. He has the greatest Mahler band at his disposal. Haitink is also worth hearing with this orchestra; their intensity in the final pages is unbeatable.
Sarge
I've heard Horenstein is excellent- as for Bernstein, I haven't caught on yet to any of his from my set.
Quote from: Greg on July 08, 2009, 03:16:38 PM
I've heard Horenstein is excellent- as for Bernstein, I haven't caught on yet to any of his from my set.
Which set? DG or Sony? The DG has some fantastic music making in it, but you have to get used to his slow, uber serious approach to the music.
Quote from: DavidW on July 08, 2009, 05:32:31 AM
Chailly? Tennstedt!? Those are mediocre recordings.
A valuable contribution.
Quote from: eyeresist on July 08, 2009, 09:17:48 PM
A valuable contribution.
It's amusing that if someone says that something is good, but with no explanation the person is thanked.
However, if someone says that something is bad, but with no explanation the sarcastic quip is sure to come.