This fine box for so little money is a bargain I think.
What do you think? 11 cd's, 19,95.
Have it already and find it so fine, that I wanted to bring this at your attention again.
Quote from: Harry on May 24, 2007, 03:57:57 AM
This fine box for so little money is a bargain I think.
What do you think? 12 cd's, 19,95.
Have it already and find it so fine, that I wanted to bring this at your attention again.
Where is it available? :)
Quote from: George on May 24, 2007, 04:00:20 AM
Where is it available? :)
Well in Europe at JPC
George.
And that's the only place I order! :)
Thanks, Harry. Just placed my order :)
Sarge
Quote from: Harry on May 24, 2007, 04:05:38 AM
Well in Europe at JPC George.
And that's the only place I order! :)
Thanks. :)
GAD! I recently bought the later version of his Bach Suites. Anyone know if the ones included here are the early or late recordings? :-\
I love this box set! It includes Beethoven's Music for Cello and Piano with Jos van Immerseel which is now out of print, and otherwise very difficult to find.
It's also available through HMV UK for about the same price. The shipping to the USA is a bit less than the German postal rates, and the price includes the VAT (Value Added Tax) which is deducted when the album is shipped outside the European Union.
Quote from: George on May 24, 2007, 04:44:12 AM
Thanks. :)
GAD! I recently bought the later version of his Bach Suites. Anyone know if the ones included here are the early or late recordings? :-\
Sorry, but it has the later set. But, it also includes Schubert's Quintet in C, Mozart's Divertimento k563, 4 Adagios and Fugues after Bach (the greatest HIP recording of the K.563); the Mendelssohn Octet; His great OOP recording "The Cello and the King of Prussia;" The Brahms Sonatas for Piano and Cello (with Lambert Orkis on Fortepiano); the Boccherini Concertos (with Tafelmusik); and the vivaldi Cello Concertos.
I don't think anyone will go wrong with this set unless they are lucky enough to already have all of the music under separate covers.
Quote from: George on May 24, 2007, 04:44:12 AM
I recently bought the later version of his Bach Suites. Anyone know if the ones included here are the early or late recordings? :-\
If I remember correctly it's the 2nd recording but I'm not 100% sure.
I think real gemms here are the Bach suites, the LvB sonatas, the Mozart and the Schubert. More than enough to justify the purchase - highly recommended!
1.CD Bach:Cellosuiten BWV 1007-1009
2.CD Bach:Cellosuiten BWV 1010-1012
3.CD Beethoven:Cellosonaten Nr. 1-3
4.CD Beethoven:Cellosonaten Nr. 4 & 5; Mozart-Variationen op. 66 für Cello & Klavier
5.CD Boccherini:Cellokonzerte Nr 3 & 11; Symphonie Nr. 4;Ouvertüre G. 521;Oktett G. 470
6.CD Brahms:Cellosonaten Nr. 1 & 2; Schumann:5 Stücke im Volkston op. 102
7.CD JP Duport:Sonate op. 2, 1 für 2 Celli & Klavier;JL Duport:Exercises Nr. 9 & 11 für 2 Celli;Beethoven Variationen WoO. 45 & 46 für Cello & Klavier;Romberg:Cellosonate Nr. 1
8.CD Mendelssohn: Oktett op. 20; Gade: Oktett op. 17
9.CD Mozart:Divertimento KV 563;Adagios & Fugen KV 404a Nr. 1-3, 6
10.CD Schubert:Streichquintett D. 956; Rondo D. 438
11.CD Vivaldi:Cellokonzerte RV 413 & 418; Konzerte für Streicher RV 117, 134, 143, 159; Konzert für Violine & Cello RV 547; Konzerte für 2 Violinen & 2 Celli RV 575; Konzert für 4 Violinen RV 549 Bylsma, Orkis, L'Archibudelli, Tafelmusik u. a.Q
Thanks Bunny and Que! :)
You are very welcome. :)
Quote from: Que on May 24, 2007, 05:52:24 AM
If I remember correctly it's the 2nd recording but I'm not 100% sure.
I think real gemms here are the Bach suites, the LvB sonatas, the Mozart and the Schubert. More than enough to justify the purchase - highly recommended!
.....
7.CD JP Duport:Sonate op. 2, 1 für 2 Celli & Klavier;JL Duport:Exercises Nr. 9 & 11 für 2 Celli;Beethoven Variationen WoO. 45 & 46 für Cello & Klavier;Romberg:Cellosonate Nr. 1
....
Q
Oh no! You and Bunny are both developing a faulty memory....It's the first (and better in my book) recording included in the box even though the cardboard sleeves show cover pictures of the later recording. Listen to your CDs, don't just look at them.... Also, if they have not corrected it, CD7 has a lot of mistakes in its documentation as well, i.e. track names and music don't match.
Quote from: fl.traverso on May 24, 2007, 09:58:44 AM
Oh no! You and Bunny are both developing a faulty memory....It's the first (1970s) recording included in the box even though the cardboard sleeves show cover pictures of the later recording. Take a listen of your CDs, don't just look at them.... If they have not corrected it, CD7 has a lot of mistakes in its labeling as well, i.e. track names and music don't match.
Thanks! That is very good news!!! :)
Quote from: fl.traverso on May 24, 2007, 09:58:44 AM
Oh no! You and Bunny are both developing a faulty memory....It's the first (and better in my book) recording included in the box even though the cardboard sleeves show cover pictures of the later recording. Listen to your CDs, don't just look at them.... Also, if they have not corrected it, CD7 has a lot of mistakes in its documentation as well, i.e. track names and music don't match.
I've never owned this particular set, hence the reliance on my memory!
But I'm very glad that you've shed your light on this darkness.... ;D
Q
Quote from: Que on May 24, 2007, 10:07:47 AM
I've never owned this particular set, hence the reliance on my memory!
But I'm very glad that you've shed your light in this darkness.... ;D
Q
Sorry! I didn't know you were in the dark! :P
I've got some evidence for my assertion as well, although it is in Japanese.
Look at the product page for this set at Tower Records Japan:
http://www.towerrecords.co.jp/sitemap/CSfCardMain.jsp?GOODS_NO=765420&GOODS_SORT_CD=102
Halfway down the page one sees some information printed in red: In the first instance, it says for CD1, 2 Bylsma's first recording was used, and it's the one where he played a real Baroque cello (i.e. not the 'post-op' Strad Servais ;)). The "singing" quality in his approach is remarkable, and the sound of the instrument most unique. All in all, a definite recording for the repertory and the
raison d'être for the set. In the second instance, which occurs a bit further down the page, a note reads that since this is a "Limited Edition" Sony is not making new pressings so faulty copies will only be exchanged at further notice. (What other faults are there in this set? :-[) Down below there is a list of all recordings included in the box. Note that CD1, 2 (Bach Unaccompanied Cello Suites) have the production date of 1979.
Quote from: fl.traverso on May 24, 2007, 10:20:29 AM
Sorry! I didn't know you were in the dark! :P
I've got some evidence for my assertion as well, although it is in Japanese.
Look at the product page for this set at Tower Records Japan:
http://www.towerrecords.co.jp/sitemap/CSfCardMain.jsp?GOODS_NO=765420&GOODS_SORT_CD=102
I hope I didn't give the impression I didn't take your word for it?
It has been quite a while since I came across this set, so I'm not surprised that I remembered incorrectly.
Don't know if many of us here can read the linked text though... :)
Q
Quote from: Que on May 24, 2007, 11:07:33 AM
I hope I didn't give the impression I didn't take your word for it?
It has been quite a while since I came across this set, so I'm not surprised that I remembered incorrectly.
Don't know if many of us here can read the linked text though... :)
Q
Yeah, I tried two different Babel Fish's. To no avail. :-\
Quote from: Que on May 24, 2007, 11:07:33 AM
I hope I didn't give the impression I didn't take your word for it?
It has been quite a while since I came across this set, so I'm not surprised that I remembered incorrectly.
No, not at all. I think we are understood there. But I thought you said you "never owned this particular set"... which "set" is it? Is it the original release on Seon, the Sony budget re-release, or this Limited Edition set? I am the one
in the dark here. ;)
Quote
Don't know if many of us here can read the linked text though... :)
Q
That's why I tried providing a translation of the parts that are relevant to our discussion here (pardon the dreadful red highlights), sketchy as it is! :-[
Quote from: fl.traverso on May 24, 2007, 11:18:35 AM
No, not at all. I think we are understood there. But I thought you said you "never owned this particular set"... which "set" is it? Is it the original release on Seon, the Sony budget re-release, or this Limited Edition set? I am the one in the dark here. ;)
I see. :) I was talking about the Jubilee Limited Edition set at issue here.
Q
Quote from: Que on May 24, 2007, 11:24:12 AM
I see. :) I was talking about the Jubilee Limited Edition set at issue here.
Q
Meaning you own all these Bylsma recordings
in their original release? :o
I have more than half of its contents duplicated, but I thought what the h*** this is affordable. ;D
Quote from: fl.traverso on May 24, 2007, 09:58:44 AM
Oh no! You and Bunny are both developing a faulty memory....It's the first (and better in my book) recording included in the box even though the cardboard sleeves show cover pictures of the later recording. Listen to your CDs, don't just look at them.... Also, if they have not corrected it, CD7 has a lot of mistakes in its documentation as well, i.e. track names and music don't match.
well! Thank you for the correction. I never played those particular cds because I have both sets of the suites already, and they have always been close at hand. I merely assumed that with the picture from the later set, the suites would be those. Ofcourse, if they make corrections to the later sets, they may very well put in the later recordings and retain the graphics. Or, they may just leave it as it is, with only those who have both sets who atually play the recordings to make the distinction.
Quote from: fl.traverso on May 24, 2007, 11:28:51 AM
Meaning you own all these Bylsma recordings in their original release? :o
I have more than half of its contents duplicated, but I thought what the h*** this is affordable. ;D
Yes, the same reasoning I used, and when I tried to obtain the Beethoven I found the prices being asked for the set which is now OOP were higher than the price of this set! :o
Moreover, I didn't have to purchase the Cello and the King of Prussia for the Beethoven variations. It was even more of a bargain when I ordered it last year from HMV because the dollar was not as weak against the pound then.
Quote from: Bunny on May 24, 2007, 11:36:01 AM
Ofcourse, if they make corrections to the later sets, they may very well put in the later recordings and retain the graphics. Or, they may just leave it as it is, with only those who have both sets who atually play the recordings to make the distinction.
I think sony is not making any "corrected" pressings, that's why we still have the warning messages at the tower records jp product page. One can see from the consumer feedback
(at the bottom of the page) that people love that mistake, i.e. they are happy to have the earlier
recording in the set despite what is shown on the covers...
Quote from: fl.traverso on May 24, 2007, 10:20:29 AM
Halfway down the page one sees some information printed in red: In the first instance, it says for CD1, 2 Bylsma's first recording was used, and it's the one where he played a real Baroque cello (i.e. not the 'post-op' Strad Servais ;)).
This is of course not your comment but the quotation from the Tower site.
Nevertheless I'd like to point out that I don't think the statement is true. The first five suites in the 2nd recording were performed on a Stradivarius (the "Servais") from 1701, which has been preserved
without any significant alterations. The 6th suite is performed on a
violoncello piccolo from 1700.
Q
Quote from: Que on May 24, 2007, 11:54:48 AM
This is of course not your comment but the quotation from the Tower site.
Nevertheless I'd like to point out that I don't think the statement is true. The first five suites in the 2nd recording were performed on a Stradivarius (the "Servais") from 1701, which has been preserved without any significant alterations. The 6th suite is performed on a violoncello piccolo from 1700.
Q
I guess here we will have to take the Smithsonian curators' word for it then, even though I thought for a cello to play through the nineteenth century while retaining its late seventeenth century configuration seems rather unlikely. An endpin is implemented on the Servais - that is for sure - one can see from the picture of Bylsma playing it in the Vivarte booklet.
Quote from: fl.traverso on May 24, 2007, 12:03:44 PM
An endpin is implemented on the Servais - that is for sure - one can see from the picture of Bylsma playing it in the Vivarte booklet.
Correct, added in 1850 during the ownership of François Servais himself. But that seems to be all. The booklet states that this instrument, as one of the few, has escaped the "cutting"/down sizing operation that was customary since the early 19th century.
Q
I own the later recording solo suite done 5/6 with the Servais Strad, and I think it's quite wonderful. Thanks for the tip on the box set. More Mr. Bijlsma is probably good for me.
I am so glad you are all so happy about this box, boy am I glad that I brought this to your attention again. ;D ;D
Quote from: Que on May 24, 2007, 12:30:30 PM
Correct, added in 1850 during the ownership of François Servais himself. But that seems to be all. The booklet states that this instrument, as one of the few, has escaped the "cutting"/down sizing operation that was customary since the early 19th century.
Q
Not a new finger board? A new bridge? Do bear in mind that when the cello was made in 1704, it was intended as a continuo instrument and never had to "sing" passages in very high tessituras like it had to in the nineteenth century, when the cello became a concert or solo instrument. Yes, the Servais may not have been "cut" like most other Strads, but that may be all there is to its miraculously well-preserved state. If I were to follow Sigiswald Kuijken's argument, I'd say it is impossible to use all Baroque techniques if one has to hold the instrument in a non-Baroque way i.e. with a chin support, an endpin etc. Perhaps that's why Bylsma's second recording doesn't sound particularly baroque to me.... But enough of this speculation. Some will enjoy Bach on the Servais no matter what.
ps. Sigiswald Kuijken had this idea of playing the JSB cello suites on a very large viola or a cello piccolo "on the shoulder"--
viola pomposa or cello piccolo da spalla -- but never had the chance to put it on record, presumably for lack of financial supports. Those interested can check out the webpage of Dmitry Badiarov, who is currently experimenting on reviving these engimatic string instruments. http://violadabraccio.com/
Quote from: fl.traverso on May 24, 2007, 12:03:44 PM
I guess here we will have to take the Smithsonian curators' word for it then, even though I thought for a cello to play through the nineteenth century while retaining its late seventeenth century configuration seems rather unlikely. An endpin is implemented on the Servais - that is for sure - one can see from the picture of Bylsma playing it in the Vivarte booklet.
The curator for the musical instruments collection now is Kenneth Slowik, but I don't recall if he was curator when the suites were recorded. I haven't looked at the booklet in quite some time, but if I recall correctly it said that the cello was remarkably well preserved, and aside from the addition of an endpin had not been cut down from its original baroque era size. I also recall that Bijlsma noted that he used gut strings except for the lowest bass (C) string for which he chose after much thought to use a steel wrapped string. I can't remember whether it stated explicitly that the cello had undergone no interior rebuilding, but that was my general impression. I think if it has not been cut down from the original size, it's unlikely that it has been reconstructed within as it would have been altogether too easy to cut the cello down to the more modern size when doing that interior work.
Here's the entry from Answers.com and a picture of the cello as it appears today, being played by Kenneth Slowik.
The Servais Stradivarius is an antique cello fabricated in 1701 by Italian luthier Antonio Stradivari of Cremona (1644-1737). It one of only sixty-three extant cellos attributed to his handicraft. The cello takes its name from the nineteenth-century Belgian cellist, Adrien Francois Servais (1807-1866), who played this cello.
The Servais Stradivarius is currently owned by the Smithsonian Institution's National Museum of American History. The instrument is famous for its remarkable state of preservation—retaining its original 1701 label—and musical excellence. The Russian Princess Yusupov purchased the cello for Servais ca. 1845, and was subsequently passed to his son. The cello was later donated to the Smithsonian Institute by Charlotte Bergen of New Jersey. Cellist Anner Bylsma used the Servais in his 1992 recording of the J. S. Bach: Suites for Unaccompanied Cello.(http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/c/cf/ServaisStradivarius.jpg)
Quote from: fl.traverso on May 24, 2007, 01:27:20 PM
Not a new finger board? A new bridge? Do bear in mind that when the cello was made in 1704, it was intended as a continuo instrument and never had to "sing" passages in very high tessituras like it had to in the nineteenth century, when the cello became a concert or solo instrument. Yes, the Servais may not have been "cut" like most other Strads, but that may be all there is to its miraculously well-preserved state. If I were to follow Sigiswald Kuijken's argument, I'd say it is impossible to use all Baroque techniques if one has to hold the instrument in a non-Baroque way i.e. with a chin support, an endpin etc. Perhaps that's why Bylsma's second recording doesn't sound particularly baroque to me.... But enough of this speculation. Some will enjoy Bach on the Servais no matter what.
ps. Sigiswald Kuijken had this idea of playing the JSB cello suites on a very large viola or a cello piccolo "on the shoulder"-- viola pomposa or cello piccolo da spalla -- but never had the chance to put it on record, presumably for lack of financial supports. Those interested can check out the webpage of Dmitry Badiarov, who is currently experimenting on reviving these engimatic string instruments. http://violadabraccio.com/
Thank you for a most interesting link. :)
The idea of playing the suites on a viol da braccia is not new. In any event, Patricia McCarty has recorded them on a (modern) viola and while she plays very well, it's still not the same thing at all. Btw, the sound quality of that recording is amazing as it was recorded at the Troy Savings Bank New York, which is famous for its accoustics.
What a fine thread this has become, I am so glad about that.
Great fun, and good learning moments.
Thanks all. :)
Quote from: Bunny on May 24, 2007, 01:54:27 PM
Thank you for a most interesting link. :)
The idea of playing the suites on a viol da braccia is not new. In any event, Patricia McCarty has recorded them on a (modern) viola and while she plays very well, it's still not the same thing at all. Btw, the sound quality of that recording is amazing as it was recorded at the Troy Savings Bank New York, which is famous for its accoustics.
Right, even though I must emphasize that a modern viola is very different from a cello piccolo da spalla both in the way it is constructed or played. Try the recording on Badiarov's webpage - the thing is so big it has to be secured with a shoulder strap. Also, unlike what McCarty had done, playing the cello suites on a cello piccolo da spalla probably does not involve any transposition. This means the issue of an adaptation "altering the character of its original" becomes largely a moot point.
Quote from: Harry on May 24, 2007, 02:05:15 PM
What a fine thread this has become, I am so glad about that.
Great fun, and good learning moments.
Thanks all. :)
Thank you for providing the occasion for a discussion on Bylsma and the baroque cello. Pieter Wispewey learned with Bylsma but later tended to disavow Anner's influences on him, including a love for Boccherini - hardly a Boccherini recording in sight in Wispelway's huge discography while Bylsma recorded plenty of Boccherini. Hmm. :)
Quote from: Bunny on May 24, 2007, 01:54:27 PM
Thank you for a most interesting link. :)
The idea of playing the suites on a viol da braccia is not new. In any event, Patricia McCarty has recorded them on a (modern) viola and while she plays very well, it's still not the same thing at all. Btw, the sound quality of that recording is amazing as it was recorded at the Troy Savings Bank New York, which is famous for its accoustics.
Quote from: fl.traverso on May 24, 2007, 02:29:05 PM
Right, even though I must emphasize that a modern viola is very different from a cello piccolo da spalla both in the way it is constructed or played. Try the recording on Badiarov's webpage - the thing is so big it has to be secured with a shoulder strap. Also, unlike what McCarty had done, playing the cello suites on a cello piccolo da spalla probably does not involve any transposition. This means the issue of an adaptation "altering the character of its original" becomes largely a moot point.
But I already stated that it's not the same! In any event I did listen to the tracks on the website and they do sound very different from modern viola -- much deeper and lower in pitch.
Dang it - I'm not finished listening to most of my other JPC order! I'll have to see what else would be good to get (dang flat shipping fee)...
Quote from: stingo on May 24, 2007, 04:42:08 PM
Dang it - I'm not finished listening to most of my other JPC order! I'll have to see what else would be good to get (dang flat shipping fee)...
Try HMV UK (http://www.hmv.co.uk/hmvweb/displayProductDetails.do?ctx=280;-1;-1;-1&sku=199245). The shipping from UK is more reasonable than from Germany, where the postal rates are killer.
Quote from: Bunny on May 24, 2007, 03:15:52 PM
But I already stated that it's not the same! In any event I did listen to the tracks on the website and they do sound very different from modern viola -- much deeper and lower in pitch.
Yes, the idea of playing the cello suites on the viola is certainly not new - the practice of making arrangements for other instruments is actually centuries old. However, Kuijken's da spalla instruments are not "other instruments" but the real thing itself except being smaller and played in a horizontal position. This leads to Kuijken's assertion that he thinks
the cello suites and the violin s&p's were actually composed for the same person (i.e. JSB himself) to use! Considering the implications that this will have on the ways in which the cello suites will be played and interpreted in future hip, I do find it important to see the vital difference between this potential
rediscovery and traditional arranging via transcription or transposition.
Recorder players will understand this better - they know how much the character of music remains unchanged when played on an F-alto, an F-bassetto, or even an F-contrabasso.
Quote from: Bunny on May 24, 2007, 07:26:46 PM
Try HMV UK (http://www.hmv.co.uk/hmvweb/displayProductDetails.do?ctx=280;-1;-1;-1&sku=199245). The shipping from UK is more reasonable than from Germany, where the postal rates are killer.
Thanks Bunny - I went with jpc though - found some more Brilliant boxes to get, as well as a cpo release (which should delight Harry). Will post the order in the purchases thread.
I actually have one of the Bylsma Bach Cello Suites recordings, the one with the Servais so if this new set has "alternate takes" with a different instrument, so much the better.
Quote from: fl.traverso on May 24, 2007, 01:27:20 PM
Not a new finger board? A new bridge?
[Snip]
Dear Fl,
I have found the Smithsonian site for their instrument collection and they allow questions and comments to be posted. I have no idea whether the question about possible changes to the cello will be accepted or answered, but I cobbled together a question from your posts as to whether any other changes were made when the endpin was added by Servais. Here is a link to the site and a copy of my question (and yes, I have quoted you freely. ;) ) I have added another picture of the cello in it's case, and perhaps you can tell whether the construction fo the fingerboard and bridge are baroque or 19th century.
If you have more questions or comments, I would love to eventually see them there. :)
http://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/object.cfm?key=35&objkey=21 (http://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/object.cfm?key=35&objkey=21)
It has never been clear from any of the articles written about this cello whether any other alterations were made by Servais when he added the endpin. I am curious because when the cello was made in 1704, it was intended as a continuo instrument and never had to "sing" passages in very high tessituras like it had to in the nineteenth century, when the cello became a concert or solo instrument.(http://americanhistory.si.edu/dynamic/images/collections_xlarge/nmah1999-00183_428px.jpg)
Received my copy from HMV yesterday, and I got the Dutch version! Harry, even if I'm Norwegian, and our languages have the same germanic root, the liner notes cannot be deciphered by yours truly.
Apart from that: I've listened to the Mozart and the Vivaldi, and dipped in on the Bach suites. Great stuff, all of it. Thanks again.
Quote from: Valentino on June 06, 2007, 11:40:05 PM
Received my copy from HMV yesterday, and I got the Dutch version! Harry, even if I'm Norwegian, and our languages have the same germanic root, the liner notes cannot be deciphered by yours truly.
Apart from that: I've listened to the Mozart and the Vivaldi, and dipped in on the Bach suites. Great stuff, all of it. Thanks again.
Well I could offer you to translate it into Norwegian, the only trouble being that I do not understand one Ioata from this beautiful language.
Had a Norwegian girlfriend somewhere in 1975, but she did not learn me to understand
that language. ;D
;D
Well at least mine spells Anner Bijlsma on the cover!
I have the English version, but no booklet at all.
Rather annoying that.
And of course the name spelled wrong, Bylsma, instead of Bijlsma. :P
Quote from: Bunny on May 25, 2007, 07:56:51 AM
Dear Fl,
I have found the Smithsonian site for their instrument collection and they allow questions and comments to be posted. I have no idea whether the question about possible changes to the cello will be accepted or answered, but I cobbled together a question from your posts as to whether any other changes were made when the endpin was added by Servais. Here is a link to the site and a copy of my question (and yes, I have quoted you freely. ;) ) I have added another picture of the cello in it's case, and perhaps you can tell whether the construction fo the fingerboard and bridge are baroque or 19th century.
Hi Bunny,
Sorry for a rather late return to this thread. I guess I just kind of put it away in a backburner in my mind. ;)
I recently attended a concert given by Devon Baroque (HIP group directed by Margaret Faultless) and the finger boards on their period cellos do look a bit wider and flatter, and their necks shorter, than those seen on the Servais instrument. If that is any indication at all, I would say some changes may have been made to those parts, if not to the body itself. But this is only based on very crude observations (even though from close up), so take it with a very big grain of salt if you wish.
Thanks for the link, and I will go take a look later. :D
EDIT
A graph I found that shows the different setups for a Baroque cello and the later one (profile angle):
(http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/8041/bar3zk0.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
and a baroque cello made by William Baker in Oxford in 1672
(http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/1820/bar1anj0.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
for comparison.
(http://americanhistory.si.edu/dynamic/images/collections_xlarge/nmah1999-00183_428px.jpg) (http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/8041/bar3zk0.jpg) (http://www.peak.org/~violin/cellofront.jpg) (http://www.servais-vzw.org/images/img_02/stradivarius.jpg)
The third image is a reproduction of the servais strad by the luthier Jonathan Franke showing the endpin in place. The fourth image is of the actual Servais Strad from the Servais Society website. I've received no answers from the Smithsonian on my query as to whether any changes have been made to the bridge or neck of the instrument. From the pictures, it's really too difficult to tell whether there have been any changes to the neck and bridge. However, the neck of the Servais Strad does look a trifle more arched (modern).
Below are pictures of Kenneth Slowik playing the Servais Strad and a painting of an early 18th century cellist for comparison.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/cf/ServaisStradivarius.jpg) (http://www.cello.org/heaven/baroque/bar2.jpg)
Quote from: Harry on June 07, 2007, 12:12:44 AM
I have the English version, but no booklet at all.
Rather annoying that.
And of course the name spelled wrong, Bylsma, instead of Bijlsma. :P
Harry, I seem to have gotten a "hybrid" version of the set from HMV UK: The box spells the name Bijlsma, the booklet also has the correct name spelling, has the track information in English, main titles in English, but the notes by the Smithsonian Curator Kenneth Slowik are only in Dutch with no translation. ;)
Well count yourself lucky, you at least have a booklet, although in Dutch.
If you have no use for it, send it to me, I would be grateful!
Yours seems to be the same as mine, Bunny. Must be the HMV version...
They didn't do too much QC on the packaging. My heart sank when I saw the "Servais" suites covers on the first two disks, but, the info on the back is correct. It's of course the '79 recording, and it also sounds like a nice addition to my collection. I've only sampled briefly thus far.
Thanks Bunny for more pictures. I think I will focus on two details that kind of stand out for me:
First, the (much) extended fingerboard closer to the tone holes, and, two, the bridge appears to be
quite high compared to the usual baroque type. Both would make more sense if the cello has been
set up to the modern style according to the profile line drawing which I quoted in the post above.
My most immediate response is that the Servais has an more arched neck, a longer (and narrower)
fingerboard, and a more highly raised bridge than most baroque cellos replicas or unaltered originals.
The instrument shown in the "Boccherini" portrait appears to be not so much a Baroque cello than
a Classical one. As for when the change actually took place, one might have to consult more
autheritative sources of information. Is there a Cambridge Companion for the Violoncello yet? ???
Quote from: Harry on June 07, 2007, 03:46:05 AM
Well count yourself lucky, you at least have a booklet, although in Dutch.
If you have no use for it, send it to me, I would be grateful!
Will you do me the great favor of translating the notes? I will be happy to send you a copy of the booklet. Just send me the mailing information, or if I can, I will get the booklet scanned so that I can email it to you.
Quote from: Bunny on June 07, 2007, 03:51:07 AM
Will you do me the great favor of translating the notes? I will be happy to send you a copy of the booklet. Just send me the mailing information, or if I can, I will get the booklet scanned so that I can email it to you.
Yes I will do that, if you are not in a haste that is, for I have loads of work on my desk.
If you cannot scan it, I will PM you the mailing details. :)
My email is in the profile.
Quote from: fl.traverso on June 07, 2007, 03:49:02 AM
Thanks Bunny for more pictures. I think I will focus on two details that kind of stand out for me:
First, the (much) extended fingerboard closer to the tone holes, and, two, the bridge appears to be
quite high compared to the usual baroque type. Both would make more sense if the cello has been
set up to the modern style according to the profile line drawing which I quoted in the post above.
My most immediate response is that the Servais has an more arched neck, a longer (and narrower)
fingerboard, and a more highly raised bridge than most baroque cellos replicas or unaltered originals.
The instrument shown in the "Boccherini" portrait appears to be not so much a Baroque cello than
a Classical one. As for when the change actually took place, one might have to consult more
autheritative sources of information. Is there a Cambridge Companion for the Violoncello yet? ???
I thought Oxford was publishing all of those "companion" tomes. ;)
But yes, it would appear that some changes were made to the neck and bridge of the instrument, perhaps by Servais himself. The interior, however has had no changes made (no altered bass bar) so at least we have that to go on.
Meanwhile, I have loaded the cds of the suites from the set into Itunes and Gracenote has identified them as the 1979 set of suites, ie, the earlier set that was not performed on the Servais Strad. I hope no buyers will be disappointed by this.
I did a check by ear, and can verify that it's not the "Servais" set that's in the box.
Quote from: Bunny on June 07, 2007, 04:02:38 AM
I thought Oxford was publishing all of those "companion" tomes. ;)
This is what I had in mind, and yes it is published by Cambridge University Press. ;)
http://www.cambridge.org/catalogue/catalogue.asp?isbn=9780521629287 (http://www.cambridge.org/catalogue/catalogue.asp?isbn=9780521629287)
The Cambridge Companion to the Cello
Edited by Robin Stowell
University of Wales College of Cardiff
n.b. The "Boccherini" Portrait is indeed his likeness and was dated to c. 1765-67. It is now in the collection of National Gallery of Victoria, Australia.
Quote from: Valentino on June 07, 2007, 04:08:14 AM
I did a check by ear, and can verify that it's not the "Servais" set that's in the box.
It is the "Matteo Goffriller 1695" set - and a better interpretation to my ears! ;D
Whoa, do you have information on this instrument too? I've been following the discussion on the Servais with great interest.
Quote from: Valentino on June 07, 2007, 04:20:20 AM
Whoa, do you have information on this instrument too? I've been following the discussion on the Servais with great interest.
I don't doubt that Fl. has the correct information, but later I'll look it up in the origional version of the set which I also have.
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/513YR4SJAQL._SS500_.jpg)
My seon Bijsma cd's have the same graphics as this LP set: Looks like Anner wasn't having so much fun playing Bach :)
(http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/7170/sv503207le3.gif) (http://imageshack.us)
It's Bylsma's own instrument anyway, but the back cover also states he used the Goffriller instrument for the recording. :)
Booklet? There's a booklet? I got my set from jpc and it wasn't shrinkwrapped, and had no booklet... Am I the only one this has happened to?
Quote from: stingo on June 07, 2007, 11:04:27 AM
Booklet? There's a booklet? I got my set from jpc and it wasn't shrinkwrapped, and had no booklet... Am I the only one this has happened to?
No. ;D
Quote from: stingo on June 07, 2007, 11:04:27 AM
Booklet? There's a booklet? I got my set from jpc and it wasn't shrinkwrapped, and had no booklet... Am I the only one this has happened to?
I bought mine from HMV UK; I don't recall if it was shrink wrapped. The box arrived with a serious crease in the spine from being squashed in the post. As everything else in the box was in perfect condition, I didn't bother to ask for an exchange which is pretty dicey when it's shipped overseas. Anyway, I'm not that fussy about cardboard. It did come with the infamous booklet -- which as I noted before is little more than the track listings which are also on the cardboard cd covers, and an essay which I suspect is more about Anner Bijlsma than the music, in Dutch by the American cellist Kenneth Slowik. There is nothing about the instruments used by any of the musicians, although they are credited. Some of the track listings are also inaccurate - especially for CD 7 Music for the King of Prussia. It's pretty much a bare bones set, but the music is really what counts, and that's all there -- except the Servais Strad Bach, which turned out to be the earlier Bach recording.
Quote from: stingo on June 07, 2007, 11:04:27 AM
Booklet? There's a booklet? I got my set from jpc and it wasn't shrinkwrapped, and had no booklet... Am I the only one this has happened to?
Me too, no booklet.............
Quote from: Bunny on June 07, 2007, 12:50:43 PM
I bought mine from HMV UK; I don't recall if it was shrink wrapped. The box arrived with a serious crease in the spine from being squashed in the post. As everything else in the box was in perfect condition, I didn't bother to ask for an exchange which is pretty dicey when it's shipped overseas. Anyway, I'm not that fussy about cardboard. It did come with the infamous booklet -- which as I noted before is little more than the track listings which are also on the cardboard cd covers, and an essay which I suspect is more about Anner Bijlsma than the music, in Dutch by the American cellist Kenneth Slowik. There is nothing about the instruments used by any of the musicians, although they are credited. Some of the track listings are also inaccurate - especially for CD 7 Music for the King of Prussia. It's pretty much a bare bones set, but the music is really what counts, and that's all there -- except the Servais Strad Bach, which turned out to be the earlier Bach recording.
I already have the Servais recording anyhow - and like you said, it's the music that's there and that's the important thing - will have to listen to it soon.
Music for the King of Prussia - Bylsma, Slowik, Hoogland (Disc 7)
It looks like the printed track listing is incorrect...
Duport: Sonata for 2 cellos and piano
Duport: 11th Exercise for 2 cellos (this track is omitted)
Beethoven: Variations on "See the Conqu'ring Hero Comes"
Duport: 9th Exercise for 2 cellos
Romberg: Sonata for cello and piano
Boccherini: Sonata for 2 cellos
Beethoven: 12 Variations on "Bei Mannern, welche Liebe fuehlen"
Quote from: stingo on June 09, 2007, 05:11:48 AM
Music for the King of Prussia - Bylsma, Slowik, Hoogland (Disc 7)
It looks like the printed track listing is incorrect...
Duport: Sonata for 2 cellos and piano
Duport: 11th Exercise for 2 cellos (this track is omitted)
Beethoven: Variations on "See the Conqu'ring Hero Comes"
Duport: 9th Exercise for 2 cellos
Romberg: Sonata for cello and piano
Boccherini: Sonata for 2 cellos
Beethoven: 12 Variations on "Bei Mannern, welche Liebe fuehlen"
Yes, but the music is all there, and a track listing can be corrected with a pencil and piece of paper. Carelessness in track listings, time listings, opus numbers, key signatures, performers, etc. have become very common where once they were rarities. Perhaps it's just a sign of the times, but I can't stress out about cardboard boxes or anything I can correct with a pencil and a little time.
Quote from: Bunny on June 09, 2007, 12:43:58 PM
Yes, but the music is all there, and a track listing can be corrected with a pencil and piece of paper. Carelessness in track listings, time listings, opus numbers, key signatures, performers, etc. have become very common where once they were rarities. Perhaps it's just a sign of the times, but I can't stress out about cardboard boxes or anything I can correct with a pencil and a little time.
Not stressing out over it - just pointing it out for those interested in such things.