Carlos Klieber - Beethoven 9
Karajan - Mahler 8
You get the idea. What are your great "What if's"
Franz Schubert - age 73
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart - age 65
Alexander Scriabin - finishes "Mysterium" ;D ;D
Hogwood and AAM finish the Haydn Symph. Cycle?
Opus 111 finish the entire Vivaldi catalouge! Oooooooo....
Quote from: King Karajan on March 05, 2009, 06:59:10 PM
Karajan - Mahler 8
The master showed good sense not performing that monstrosity. I wonder why he was not interested in Mahler 1 or Sibelius 3, on the other hand we have many fine recordings of those works.
Celibidache on Mahler 3: 180 minute symphony anyone?
Quote from: imperfection on March 05, 2009, 07:47:02 PM
Celibidache on Mahler 3: 180 minute symphony anyone?
Celibidache's Ring Cycle: 1340 minute opera anyone?
Hyperion launches a Segerstam edition.
what if there was a year long moratorium on LvB topics on GMG?
A year without "what's the greatest note in LvB 9?" stuff, just imagine.
Quote from: Brian on March 05, 2009, 07:04:27 PM
Franz Schubert - age 73
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart - age 65
Alexander Scriabin - finishes "Mysterium" ;D ;D
But then wouldn't he have to change the name?! 8)
What if...
...Callas had been a Wagnerian
...Mussorgsky hadn't been a alcoholic
...Anna Netrebko had a pimple on her nose (just kidding, Anna's cool ;))
...Schoenberg hadn't been born
...Martha Argerich would record the complete Beethoven piano sonatas and Mozart concertos
...Bernstein had spend more of his time on composing and less on conducting
...Bach had been an atheist
...there had been as many women composers as men
...Wagner had been a Jew
...pop/rock radio stations would also play some (say, 25%) classical music
...instead of the three tenors concert they had opted for a three sopranos concert
...Chopin had been a violinist instead of a pianist
Quote from: jhar26 on March 06, 2009, 02:40:51 AM
What if...
...Mussorgsky hadn't been a alcoholic
All of your what if quotes were great but this is one I have thought about for decades, as not only was Mussorgsky an alcoholic but he was very overweight, I believe 350 pounds. I read stories of him passing out face down in the snow, and being rescued by his friend Rimsky-Korsakov many times. He only lived for 42 years and I read he was buried in a piano crate.
However the few works he left behind especially Pictures at an Exhibition and Night on Bald Mountain are pure genius and I could only guess what more he could have done if he were sober a little more often.
Another composer I would like to put forward: What if Paul Dukas was not such a perfectionist and had not destroyed many of his compositions due to dissatisfaction with them?
Sometimes composers are to hard on themselves. Take for instance Rachmaninov's Symphony No. 1 which he threw in the fire because he could get it the way he wanted it. It's one of my favorite works of his. I can only imagine what great works Dukas must have destroyed, I love the few works I have heard from his pen: La Péri, The Sorcerer's Apprentice and his Symphony in C.
Quote from: Brian on March 05, 2009, 08:03:45 PM
Celibidache's Ring Cycle: 1340 minute opera anyone?
Available in this beautifully arranged 24 disc box set! :)
- Bruckner's 9th symphony finale is finally "completed" (hint: somebody founds the pages that completes the coda)
- Karajan records Rach 2
- Hans Rott and Lili Boulanger continue to live 10 more years
- Celi records Threnody to Victims of Hiroshima ;D
Quote from: MISHUGINA on March 06, 2009, 04:14:14 AM
- Karajan records Rach 2
If you mean the 2nd Piano Concerto, he has recorded it, on CD for EMI, and on video (currently DVD) for Unitel, with Alexis Weissenberg.
(The might be one and the same version: I haven't cross-compared them. Certainly worth listening to, either way. :))
Quote from: nut-job on March 05, 2009, 07:27:10 PM
[Re Mahler's 8th Symphony]
The master showed good sense not performing that monstrosity. I wonder why he was not interested in Mahler 1 or Sibelius 3, on the other hand we have many fine recordings of those works.
"The master", if I recall correctly, was planning to tackle the 8th symphony -
alias "that monstrosity" - as his next Mahler project, when he died.
As for a few of my what-ifs, what if Mahler had lived for another decade?
What if Bruckner had protected his manuscript of the 9th symphony, or better yet finished and published it?
What if Karajan had not died before the Berlin Wall fell, and had conducted Beethoven's 9th to commemorate the occasion instead of Bernstein?
What if Schubert had lived
just a little longer, oh cruel world!? :o
Finally, what if Brahms had not fallen in love for Clara Schumann?
Quote from: jhar26 on March 06, 2009, 02:40:51 AM
What if...
...Schoenberg hadn't been born
...Bach had been an atheist
...there had been as many women composers as men
...Wagner had been a Jew
Good ones!
Quote
...Chopin had been a violinist instead of a pianist
Extremely boring?
What if...
The minute waltz actually lasted...just one minute!
Wagner had been gay.
Beethoven had not gone deaf.
Quote from: King Karajan on March 05, 2009, 06:59:10 PM
Carlos Klieber - Beethoven 9
Karajan - Mahler 8
You get the idea. What are your great "What if's"
Ohhh ohhh. one more....
What if the gramophone/record player had been invented 100 years earlier?!?!? Imagine the riches...
What if it were forbidden to veer off-topic on GMG? :o
...Mozart and Beethoven were born in 1956 and 1970 respectively?
Would anybody notice? Would they be posting comments here and pushing their compositions? 0:)
What if Karajan had really been a lizard?
Quote from: KammerNuss on March 06, 2009, 05:27:49 AM
What if Karajan had really been a lizard?
Herbert von Gecko? 8)
Kubrick hadn't used classical music in his movies?
Quote from: opus67 on March 06, 2009, 05:49:43 AM
Kubrick hadn't used classical music in his movies?
OMG!!! I couldn't imagine! They would be lesser films for sure!
Quote from: King Karajan on March 06, 2009, 06:39:33 AM
OMG!!! I couldn't imagine! They would be lesser films for sure!
I can't say, since I haven't watched any of them. ;) But I've come across so many people on internet message boards such as this one whose attention was turned towards this genre of music after watching one or more of his films. (It's usually
2001: A Space Odyssey or
The Clockwork Orange.)
What if Solti had lived long enough to record a remake of Tristan for Decca? He was scheduled to not long before his death.
Sad. But I still think the one with Nilsson is very underrated.
Or if he had conducted Gurrelieder and recorded it?
If Karajan had done more of the Nielsen symphonies(He recorded only the inextinguishable for DG with the BPO.).
If Kubelik could have recorded the Janacek operas? He never did.
If Schoenberg had been able to complete Moses & Aron?
If Mahler had lived long enough to complete his 10th symphony?
If Wagner had lived longer ? He was planning to write symphonies !
And he would have written Die Sieger, (The Victors), an opera based on the life of the Buddha !
If Toscanini had recorded complete Wagner operas? The only complete one is a live Meistersinger from Salzburg, which was recrded but I have not heard.
If Furtwangler had lived long enough to make a complete studio recording of the Ring? He died just after recording Die Walkure with the Vienna Philharmonic. I have it.and it's a truly great performance.
If Victor de Sabata had not had been forced retire from conducting because of heart trouble in the 50s ? (He lived until 1967). He would have recorded more operas,perhaps with Callas etc. And left more orchestral recordings.
If Beethoven had written more operas ? He was considered Shakespeare's Macbeth ! That might have been something !
Correction : that should been "he was considering". Finger error.
Quote from: opus67 on March 06, 2009, 05:49:43 AM
Kubrick hadn't used classical music in his movies?
OMFG I'd probably be listening to 'normal' music right now! :o
What if Beethoven were
born deaf? :P
first thing that pops into mind:
SIBELIUS SYM. NO.8!!!!!!!!!
- Heifetz had recorded the Four Seasons
- We had recordings of Furtwangler conducting Mahler Symphonies
Quote from: MISHUGINA on March 06, 2009, 04:14:14 AM
- Karajan records Rach 2
If you mean the Second Symphony, then I agree, that would be a must-have.
Quote from: jhar26 on March 06, 2009, 02:40:51 AM
What if...
...Mussorgsky hadn't been a alcoholic
The loss of Mussorgsky is a great one. I recently had the opportunity to hear extended excerpts from
Khovanshchina live and was blown away by their brilliance - and how visionary they were for their time.
Quote from: jhar26 on March 06, 2009, 02:40:51 AM
...Bach had been an atheist
His church music would have sounded more like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kcJ8l7Nc8o).
- Wagner even began his planned one-movement symphonies to be written after Parsifal's completion.
Quote from: snyprrr on March 06, 2009, 11:02:40 AM
first thing that pops into mind:
SIBELIUS SYM. NO.8!!!!!!!!!
What if the 8th symphony existed but it was so dire we all wished he'd thrown it in a fire?
I do sometimes wish I could go back in time and tell him to
snap out of it! Listening to the incidental music to The Tempest, which contains some absolutely brilliant and innovative music, I am convinced that there were many musical roads he could have chosen to go down. Some of more dissonant moments in The Tempest fire my imagination and I wonder just how radical Sibelius could have become if he'd allowed himself.
What if Bach had known a Bruckner's symphony?.
Some times I have thought on this unbelievable possibility. Bach, Mozart or Beethoven coming back from the future.
-Webern was a non-smoker.
-Kubelik was not run out of Chicago.
Quote from: purephase on March 06, 2009, 03:14:35 PM
-Webern was a non-smoker.
Heh, good one.
What if popular TV shows and movies would use Schoenberg, Xenakis et al. excerpts instead of the usual cliché excerpts? If we had grown up listening to atonal (& avant-garde, etc.) pieces in every cartoon we saw, would our musical taste be different?
Quote from: Renfield on March 06, 2009, 04:41:31 AM
If you mean the 2nd Piano Concerto, he has recorded it, on CD for EMI, and on video (currently DVD) for Unitel, with Alexis Weissenberg.
Actually I meant the 2nd symphony. Just thinking about the gorgeous 3rd movement and its pity Karajan didn't record the work.
Quote from: MISHUGINA on March 06, 2009, 05:40:27 PM
Actually I meant the 2nd symphony. Just thinking about the gorgeous 3rd movement and its pity Karajan didn't record the work.
I actually think that he
wanted to record this with either EMI or DG, but they wouldn't let him because it wasn't a mainstream work.
Quote from: Renfield on March 06, 2009, 05:53:25 PM
I actually think that he wanted to record this with either EMI or DG, but they wouldn't let him because it wasn't a mainstream work.
:( A crime.
And an odd thing to reply to the master, given (a) he was Karajan and anything he did would sell, and (b) Ormandy made a whole string of Rach 2's, at roughly the same time.
Quote from: Brian on March 06, 2009, 06:22:59 PM
:( A crime.
And an odd thing to reply to the master, given (a) he was Karajan and anything he did would sell, and (b) Ormandy made a whole string of Rach 2's, at roughly the same time.
He was inkling to record the Shostakovich 8th, as well, which they (I think EMI) blocked for similar reasons. Now
that would have been something!
Quote from: snyprrr on March 06, 2009, 11:02:40 AM
first thing that pops into mind:
SIBELIUS SYM. NO.8!!!!!!!!!
From all the evidence gathered by Erik Tawaststjerna, it is clear that he wrote one - and destroyed it later, possibly in the famous bonfire of 1945. See e.g. this Finnish Music Quarterly article (http://www.fimic.fi/fimic/fimic.nsf/mainframe?readform&B17F0B92F76C013CC2256825004FBD08) by Kari Kilpeläinen.
So, in the case of Sibelius, one might actually wish he had died much
earlier. ;) 0:) Say, around 1940 - before he could decide to destroy his later compositions. :'(
What if Karajan and Bernstein were best friends and routinely conducted (and recorded with) the other's orchestra?
Karajan and Bernstein may not have been close friends, but rumors of a bitter rivalry between them have been greatly exagerrated.
They actually respected each other very much. Karajan conducted the New York Philharmonic in only one season during the late 50s when Bernstein was just starting out as MD in New York, and Bernstein conducted the BPO only once in 1979 doing Mahler's 9th, which was issued on DG. It's a great performance buyt I don't know if it's still available.
Karajan also conducted the Cleveland orchestra at the Salburg festival,but never conducted them on their home turf at Severance hall.
Quote from: Keemun on March 07, 2009, 04:57:17 AM
What if Karajan and Bernstein were best friends and routinely conducted (and recorded with) the other's orchestra?
Seconding what
Superhorn said of their great mutual respect. In fact, I'm aware of their having met shortly before they both died, and having had a long personal chat between them. (Which, given how shy at least Karajan was, would indicate significant trust.)
(The 1979 Mahler 9th is great indeed, but I think it's OOP at the moment.)
As they referred to each other as "The old Nazi" and "The music man", I'm sure they got on very well. Even if Karajan was head and shoulders the better talent!.....ok...I'm biased.
Quote from: Superhorn on March 07, 2009, 05:36:02 AM
Karajan and Bernstein may not have been close friends, but rumors of a bitter rivalry between them have been greatly exagerrated.
I don't doubt the exaggeration, but nonetheless I would like to hear Karajan conducting the NYPO and Bernstein conducting the BPO (Mahler 9th notwithstanding).
Quote from: King Karajan on March 07, 2009, 07:44:40 AM
As they referred to each other as "The old Nazi" and "The music man", I'm sure they got on very well. Even if Karajan was head and shoulders the better talent!.....ok...I'm biased.
Speaking of heads and shoulders, they were certainly both about as short! :D
Quote from: Renfield on March 07, 2009, 06:20:12 PM
Speaking of heads and shoulders, they were certainly both about as short! :D
Karajan is the
way hotter one, though. I have fantasies about him at night sometimes...
Quote from: imperfection on March 07, 2009, 06:32:28 PM
Karajan is the way hotter one, though. I have fantasies about him at night sometimes...
Watch out for the baton!
Quote from: imperfection on March 07, 2009, 06:32:28 PM
Karajan is the way hotter one, though. I have fantasies about him at night sometimes...
I've just been hit by the
|^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^| ,,
| Too Much Information Truck | '|""";.||.___.
|_..._...__________________==== _|__|..., ] |
"(@ )'(@ )"""""""""""""""""""""""*|(@ )(@ )*****(@)
If is the middle word in life...
Quote from: Brian on March 07, 2009, 07:00:52 PM
I've just been hit by the
|^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^| ,,
| Too Much Information Truck | '|""";.||.___.
|_..._...__________________==== _|__|..., ] |
"(@ )'(@ )"""""""""""""""""""""""*|(@ )(@ )*****(@)
;D
Quote from: Lethe on March 06, 2009, 11:58:17 AM
- Wagner even began his planned one-movement symphonies to be written after Parsifal's completion.
What if Wagner only wrote symphonies? 0:)
One often forgets that Beethoven was fairly young when he died - what if he had lived to 70?
I often wonder what Bach might have made of Beethoven's works, or Beethoven would have made of the Rite of Spring...
Quote from: Guido on March 08, 2009, 09:10:17 AM
One often forgets that Beethoven was fairly young when he died - what if he had lived to 70?
Well, not all that young! 57 for his time wasn't bad at all.
Quote from: King Karajan on March 05, 2009, 06:59:10 PM
Carlos Klieber - Beethoven 9
Karajan - Mahler 8
You get the idea. What are your great "What if's"
Here's an interesting article on Carlos Kleiber ...
http://www.scena.org/columns/lebrecht/040730-NL-kleiber.html
Quote from: Renfield on March 08, 2009, 10:09:25 AM
Well, not all that young! 57 for his time wasn't bad at all.
He died at 56.
Quote from: imperfection on March 08, 2009, 12:16:23 PM
He died at 56.
But in 1827, which was what I used for my estimate. And anyhow, the point still stands: he was quite old. :)
In this Haydn year...
(I read somewhere that there was such an idea). What if van Swieten and Haydn had had time and enthusiasm for completing a third oratorio, called The Last Judgment, to complement The Creation and The Seasons?
Quote from: Renfield on March 08, 2009, 12:52:53 PM
But in 1827, which was what I used for my estimate. And anyhow, the point still stands: he was quite old. :)
In the age of google there is no justification for
estimating how old Beethoven lived to be.
Quote from: nut-job on March 08, 2009, 04:28:29 PM
In the age of google there is no justification for estimating how old Beethoven lived to be.
It's called finding an excuse for using one's brain, and is a highly recommended exercise.
Quote from: Gabriel on March 08, 2009, 02:56:28 PM
In this Haydn year...
(I read somewhere that there was such an idea). What if van Swieten and Haydn had had time and enthusiasm for completing a third oratorio, called The Last Judgment, to complement The Creation and The Seasons?
A good one!
What if the old major labels (DG, Decca, etc.) and the famed conductors of the 20th century (HvK, Bernstein, Solti, et al.) had showed the same zeal in recording off-the-beaten-path-but-excellent repertoire as labels like CPO, BIS, Naxos, and company do now? "Actually, I'd recommend Karajan's second Atterberg cycle, the one with the VPO...."
Quote from: Grazioso on March 09, 2009, 04:36:57 AM
What if the old major labels (DG, Decca, etc.) and the famed conductors of the 20th century (HvK, Bernstein, Solti, et al.) had showed the same zeal in recording off-the-beaten-path-but-excellent repertoire as labels like CPO, BIS, Naxos, and company do now? "Actually, I'd recommend Karajan's second Atterberg cycle, the one with the VPO...."
"Oh, i've just discovered this disc by this obscure Finnish composer called Sibelius, do you know him? The music is Rautavaarian in the way it depicts the frozen north, and also seems to foreshadow Sallinen. It's on an obscure little British label called Decca, you should check out MDT but they might not be able to source it at the moment with the suppliers going out of business and all that."
Twilight zone moment... ;)
Quote from: RepliCat on March 09, 2009, 04:59:40 AM
"Oh, i've just discovered this disc by this obscure Finnish composer called Sibelius, do you know him? The music is Rautavaarian in the way it depicts the frozen north, and also seems to foreshadow Sallinen. It's on an obscure little British label called Decca, you should check out MDT but they might not be able to source it at the moment with the suppliers going out of business and all that."
Twilight zone moment... ;)
;D
Quote from: Grazioso on March 09, 2009, 04:36:57 AM
What if the old major labels (DG, Decca, etc.) and the famed conductors of the 20th century (HvK, Bernstein, Solti, et al.) had showed the same zeal in recording off-the-beaten-path-but-excellent repertoire as labels like CPO, BIS, Naxos, and company do now? "Actually, I'd recommend Karajan's second Atterberg cycle, the one with the VPO...."
A bit of a tautology, if the major labels had concentrated on off-the-beaten-path-but-excellent repertoire it would not be off-the-beaten-path. The fact that Karajan didn't do it is what made it off-the-beaten-path. In his younger days Karajan did champion of-the-beaten-path composers like Sibelius, which is one of the reasons that he is now pseudo-mainstream.
Actually, Solti did quite a lot of new music and other not so familiar stuff with the Chicago Symphony, but unfortunately, he got to record only Del Tredici's "Final Alice" and Tippett's 4th symphony.
It would be great if some of that repertoire he did do in Chicago could be released on CD. Who knows?
The same is true of Karajan in Berlin.
Thank heaven for Neeme and Paavo Jarvi, Gerard Schwarz, Leonard Slatkin, Alan Gilbert, and other conductors today who champion the lesser-known!
What if Schubert had chosen the prostitute on the left?
Quote from: matti on March 09, 2009, 01:59:17 PM
What if Schubert had chosen the prostitute on the left?
That just flew over my head. Care to explain?
Quote from: tanuki on March 09, 2009, 05:01:24 PM
That just flew over my head. Care to explain?
Schubert died of syphilis.
Quote from: Brian on March 09, 2009, 08:58:36 PM
Schubert died of syphilis.
But not clear that it was from a prostitute.
Quote from: jlaurson on March 09, 2009, 01:08:24 PM
If you know the sway that Fischer-Dieskau held over DG executives*, you can imagine what position HvK was in.
[* Just two examples: DFD made DG throw away a completed studio Meistersinger with Kubelik...
This is one of those internet myths that seemingly won't go away.
Kubelik's Meistersinger wasn't a DG production. And it's not studio. It's a concert performance produced by Bavarian Radio to commemorate the 100th anniversary of the works premiere.
Bavarian Radio then approached DG about issuing the recording commercially but were turned down.
DFD might well have lobbied DG to pass on the recording (no proof yet) but even if this were so DG had nothing to loose in passing on it: they hadn't invested a penny in its production.
Beethoven & Schubert got together and collaborated on a few projects:
*Set of 6 sonatas for Viola and piano (Schubert was the viola player, I believe, when he, his father and brothers played some of his string quartets).
*Set of piano duets!
:)
...Villa Lobos had completed his triple concerto for three cellos and orchestra for Fournier, Rostropovich and Piatigorsky.
Brahms had written a Clarinet Concerto...
Quote from: Renfield on March 06, 2009, 05:53:25 PM
I actually think that he wanted to record this with either EMI or DG, but they wouldn't let him because it wasn't a mainstream work.
What Brian said regarding Ormandy. Karajan did release a LP set containing works from 2nd Viennese School including the "Father" of Serialism Anton Webern so to say he can't record a "non-mainstream" work is hogwash.
Quote from: MISHUGINA on March 12, 2009, 04:54:34 AM
What Brian said regarding Ormandy. Karajan did release a LP set containing works from 2nd Viennese School including the "Father" of Serialism Anton Webern so to say he can't record a "non-mainstream" work is hogwash.
Let me append to your second sentence: "on DG".
I am unsure about the Rachmaninov, but the justification for their (EMI) not letting him record the Shostakovich 8th was just that, I am almost certain. (I say "almost" because I would prefer not to have to search through the Osborne for the reference).
What if Karajan recorded a Havergal Brian cycle $:)
Quote from: Lethe on March 12, 2009, 07:01:01 PM
What if Karajan recorded a Havergal Brian cycle $:)
I can seriously "see" him doing the Gothic. :o
Both EMI and Decca used to record a good deal of obscure music by contemporary British composers. Some of it has resurfaced on other labels.
Quite a lot of the music released on cd by Lyrita over the last couple of years was originally issued on LP by that company on license from Decca(music by Alun Hoddinott, for example). Sadly in some cases the license has now expired and Decca wants far too much money to renew it. Lyrita hoped to reissue Sir Adrian Boult's pioneering account of Humphrey Searle's 1st Symphony and a Decca album of music by Robert Still but have had to abandon the idea-apparently because negotiations with Decca have broken down :(
Quote from: Dundonnell on March 12, 2009, 07:40:50 PM
Both EMI and Decca used to record a good deal of obscure music by contemporary British composers. Some of it has resurfaced on other labels.
Quite a lot of the music released on cd by Lyrita over the last couple of years was originally issued on LP by that company on license from Decca(music by Alun Hoddinott, for example). Sadly in some cases the license has now expired and Decca wants far too much money to renew it. Lyrita hoped to reissue Sir Adrian Boult's pioneering account of Humphrey Searle's 1st Symphony and a Decca album of music by Robert Still but have had to abandon the idea-apparently because negotiations with Decca have broken down :(
You'd think that at this point, Decca would be happy to take any money from anybody. Beggars can't be choosers.
Quote from: Grazioso on March 13, 2009, 04:28:11 AM
You'd think that at this point, Decca would be happy to take any money from anybody. Beggars can't be choosers.
I quite agree with you! That is exactly what I thought too. However that was the message I got from Lyrita when I enquired about the music :(