QuoteAll white on the night: Why does the world-famous Vienna Philharmonic feature so few women and ethnic minorities?
Francesca Jackes on the dark side of the orchestra
The Vienna Philharmonic is currently visiting the UK in a haze of otherwordly sound, toting instruments long since vanished from the rest of the world. Bernstein called it "that unbelievable orchestra, which plays like one hundred angel-fingers growing out of my hands". Yet once Stravinsky immolates into silence, pause, for before you is a bald fact: an orchestra almost exclusively male and white. No other internationally ranked orchestra has so few women and non-whites: respectively three percent and zero per cent. The belief system surrounding classical music seems to reach its most conservative apotheosis in Vienna. The Philharmonic's maleness and whiteness seems to remain as inviolable a part of its identity as the liquid legato of its Vienna horn.
In February 1997, the Philharmonic voted to end its discrimination against women. The date was no coincidence, being a week before the orchestra flew to New York to play the Carnegie Hall. American public opinion, due to the research of conductor and musicologist, William Osborne, was turning against it. It found itself threatened with 800 protesters and negative press so it hastily voted to admit Anna Lelkes, a harpist, and to ensure open auditions would follow. Its then chairman, Werner Resel, resigned shortly afterwards.
Consider the mysterious Anna Lelkes. What orchestra did she leave that she could so quickly be summoned to save the VPO from its American Götterdämmerung? None. She had already been playing with them. For 26 years. Unacknowledged. Paid less. Kept out of orchestra photographs. On this great day, she was nearing retirement. And, evidently, was an opponent of women joining the orchestra, even though she had been told by the Austrian conductor Hans Swarowsky: "Your place is in the kitchen."
Read the whole
Independent article (http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/features/all-white-on-the-night-why-does-the-worldfamous-vienna-philharmonic-feature-so-few-women-and-ethnic-minorities-1915666.html).
I have no problem with this.
I had no problem with it when we talked it to death 3 years ago, and I haven't changed.
I love women, I have absolutely no problem with ethnic minorities either.
If the WP want to do without, that's their right.
In this case, I may be in the minority. It won't be the first time that's happened!
It would be great if we could just leave the really nice stuff alone. :-\
8)
The Caucasion Gentlemen's Orchestra of Vienna
It is the only orchestra in the world that has had a distinct sound/sonority throughout the years. I know, other orchestra has distinct sounds but are more or less dependent on the music director and changes to varying degree after the MD's departure. The VPO has no MD and whatever it is that is giving them that identity and cohesiveness, keep it that way.
I lived for 22 years in California and, as a minority there, I have never liked "Affirmative Action", and certainly don't want to see it in the VPO.
Yawn.
I saw the WP last month...there were quite a few women (including a horn player I fell in love with ;D ). Not as many women as most orchestras have today but the situation has obviously changed in Vienna.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 29, 2010, 07:22:49 AM
I saw the WP last month...there were quite a few women (including a horn player I fell in love with ;D ). Not as many women as most orchestras have today but the situation has obviously changed in Vienna.
Sarge
What color were they? $:)
Quote from: MN Dave on March 29, 2010, 07:31:29 AM
What color were they? $:)
Blonde...all blondes ;D
Sarge
obsolete topic
cf. from March 20
The Vienna Philharmonic, one of the oldest and most venerated orchestras in the world, has permanently appointed its first woman concertmaster.
Albena Danailova has been acting concertmaster since September 2008, making her the first woman ever in that position with the orchestra. The Bulgarian-born musician had been promoted from first violin — she was also the first woman ever to hold that job.
The world famous ensemble announced Saturday that she now has the concertmaster position after passing probation.
Established in 1842, the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra was an all-male ensemble until the 1980s when women started joining its ranks.
However, women weren't allowed to become full members until 1997 — which means being accepted into the association of the Vienna Philharmonic, an organization that confers certain privileges and prestige.
The concertmaster, head of the first violin section, is regarded as the second most important orchestra member after the conductor.
Unlike most orchestras, the string instruments in the Vienna Philharmonic belong to the orchestra itself.
The instruments are carefully chosen for their pedigree so the philharmonic can keep producing its distinctive string sound.
Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/arts/music/story/2010/03/20/vienna-philharmonic-concertmaster.html#ixzz0jaKiBvxi
Maybe it's just because the majority of people who live there- especially those who would want to play in an orchestra happen to be white guys...
...maybe?...
Quote from: Sylph on March 29, 2010, 05:09:35 AMThe Philharmonic's maleness and whiteness seems to remain as inviolable a part of its identity as the liquid legato of its Vienna horn.
Is it known how many homo-sexualists there are in it?
Quote from: Sydney Grew on March 29, 2010, 09:31:54 PM
Is it known how many homo-sexualists there are in it?
32.
Quote from: Greg on March 29, 2010, 06:52:09 PM
Maybe it's just because the majority of people who live there- especially those who would want to play in an orchestra happen to be white guys...
...maybe?...
Did you read the article linked to in the OP? Vienna's conservatories are bursting with female and Asian students, and other European orchestras have a nearly even balance of men and women. The dearth of female players in the Vienna Philharmonic is not due to lack of talent.
zzzzzzzzzzzz
Quote from: Bulldog on March 29, 2010, 10:23:27 PM
32.
Sometimes as high as 33 depending on the conductor in residence ;)
Actually, it's 32 1/2.
Quote from: MN Dave on March 30, 2010, 06:59:34 AM
Actually, it's 32 1/2.
When Bernstein was conducting.
Quote from: CRCulver on March 29, 2010, 11:26:30 PM
Did you read the article linked to in the OP? Vienna's conservatories are bursting with female and Asian students, and other European orchestras have a nearly even balance of men and women. The dearth of female players in the Vienna Philharmonic is not due to lack of talent.
The Caucasian predominance might be explained by the tendency for seats in the orchestra to be passed down to descendants of former members. But there is no explanation for why female descendants have traditionally been passed over.
The arguments for maintaining the character of the orchestra don't make much sense to me. You can't improve an organization by arbitrarily cutting down the applicant pool. Considering more applicants only improves the result, although you can imaging a bad result if someone forces them to accept a certain fraction of females, for example.
All male ensembles are more focused and even minded. Female presence can be quite disruptive to the harmony of the group, and their playing is often too mechanical to properly blend in with a specific aesthetic frame of reference. There is a reason why modern orchestras and ensembles tend to sound so clinical. Every single stretch of originality and uniqueness in the realm of European sound has been completely obliterated, and this is largely due the myriad of obstacles imposed upon western males by social liberalism to express themselves freely and without restrain. To think there was a time when the distinct sound and sonority we accord to the Vienna Philharmonic used to be the norm.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on March 30, 2010, 08:31:56 AM
All male ensembles are more focused and even minded. Female presence can be quite disruptive to the harmony of the group, and their playing is often too mechanical to properly blend in with a specific aesthetic frame of reference. There is a reason why modern orchestras and ensembles tend to sound so clinical. Every single stretch of originality and uniqueness in the realm of European sound has been completely obliterated, and this is largely due the myriad of obstacles imposed upon western males by social liberalism to express themselves freely and without restrain. To think there was a time when the distinct sound and sonority we accord to the Vienna Philharmonic used to be the norm.
Have you ever even spoken to a girl? I can imagine no other explanation for the bizarre ideas you have about females.
Quote from: Scarpia on March 30, 2010, 08:35:41 AM
Have you ever even spoken to a girl? I can imagine no other explanation for the bizarre ideas you have about females.
I simply believe it to be the truth. That's really all there is to it.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on March 30, 2010, 09:45:05 AM
I simply believe it to be the truth. That's really all there is to it.
And it's only a coincidence that you happen to be a male. ::)
Even as a kid i knew there was something inherently different about females. They were utterly incapable of hero worship and that sense of wonderment which derives from contemplating purely conceptual ideas which is characteristic for most of the fantasies and interests entertained by any imaginative boy. Females have always appeared to be ruthlessly materialistic, always concerned with the tangible basics of life with little to no interest for anything conceptual or fantastical. The materialistic nature of women has the effect of dragging men into the ground whenever females are around, which actually interferes with male creativity.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on March 30, 2010, 10:07:27 AMEven as a kid i knew there was something inherently different about females.
Genius.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on March 30, 2010, 10:07:27 AM
Even as a kid i knew there was something inherently different about females. They were utterly incapable of hero worship and that sense of wonderment which derives from contemplating purely conceptual ideas which is characteristic for most of the fantasies and interests entertained by any imaginative boy. Females have always appeared to be ruthlessly materialistic, always concerned with the tangible basics of life with little to no interest for anything conceptual or fantastical. The materialistic nature of women has the effect of dragging men into the ground whenever females are around, which actually interferes with male creativity.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfJe8hQ8ha0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfJe8hQ8ha0)
Quote from: MN Dave on March 30, 2010, 06:59:34 AM
Actually, it's 32 1/2.
Lol. Either that, or you'd have to encode the number into binary.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on March 30, 2010, 10:07:27 AM
Even as a kid i knew there was something inherently different about females. They were utterly incapable of hero worship
ehhh... you don't really have to think too hard on this one to prove this statement wrong.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on March 30, 2010, 10:07:27 AM
They were utterly incapable of hero worship
Quote from: Greg on March 30, 2010, 02:05:58 PM
ehhh... you don't really have to think too hard on this one to prove this statement wrong.
Indeed...just from personal experience I can assure JdP on that point: I've been worshipped by
many women.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 30, 2010, 02:21:21 PM
Indeed...just from personal experience I can assure JdP on that point: I've been worshipped by many women.
Sarge
Lucky...
The distinctive sound of the VPO is entirely die to the special Viennese instruments the orchestras use, such as the Vienna horn, which is supposed to be even harder to play the regular ones.
But orchestras today don't sound alike at all. The notion that they do is a myth.
It's impossible for orchestras to sound the same because they consist of different musicians playing different makes of instruments in concert halls with different acoustics.
For example, the Czech Philharmonic still has an unmistakably Czech sound,particualrly in its woodwind and brass sections. When it plays the music of Smetana,Dvorak,Janacek and Martinu, etc, it just sounds unmisakably Czech in a way than non-czech oirchestras don't.
Orchestras don't sound alike at all today; they never have and never will.
Quote from: Superhorn on March 30, 2010, 06:37:30 PM
But orchestras today don't sound alike at all. The notion that they do is a myth.
It's impossible for orchestras to sound the same because they consist of different musicians playing different makes of instruments in concert halls with different acoustics.
They all sound alike in the sense they all sound boring. No distinctiveness, no special uniqueness.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on March 30, 2010, 06:53:52 PM
They all sound alike in the sense they all sound boring. No distinctiveness, no special uniqueness.
so you're giving up listening, or will you remain bored? please ship me all of your recordings.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on March 30, 2010, 10:07:27 AM
Even as a kid i knew there was something inherently different about females. They were utterly incapable of hero worship and that sense of wonderment which derives from contemplating purely conceptual ideas which is characteristic for most of the fantasies and interests entertained by any imaginative boy. Females have always appeared to be ruthlessly materialistic, always concerned with the tangible basics of life with little to no interest for anything conceptual or fantastical. The materialistic nature of women has the effect of dragging men into the ground whenever females are around, which actually interferes with male creativity.
There are two kinds of people in the world. Those that think in binary, and those that don't.
Quote from: jowcol on March 31, 2010, 02:31:33 AM
There are two 10 kinds of people in the world. Those that think in binary, and those that don't.
Is this what you meant?
Quote from: Greg on April 20, 2010, 03:00:32 PM
Is this what you meant?
Arrgh. A touch, I do confess. Well played.
Quote from: Sylph on March 29, 2010, 05:09:35 AM
"an orchestra almost exclusively male and white."
In other words,
not exclusively. [/pedantry]
Josquin is afraid of girl germs.
For the sameyness of modern orchestras, blame the conservatory system, not the players.
So, is the Vienna Orchestra operating politically correct now? My doubts. How many men, female, homosexuals, transsexuals, heterosexuals, black, white, yellow, red, handicapped, unhandicapped, working class children, prince of wales-children, etc etc. are involved? I see a bunch of male and white people. Booooo!
Quote from: eyeresist on April 21, 2010, 08:11:41 PM
For the sameyness of modern orchestras, blame the conservatory system, not the players.
The article linked to above notes that the conservatories are producing plenty of female players, and many of the students have come from outside Europe, but upon completing their studies they are not accepted by the Vienna Philharmonic. This is not a matter of lack of non-white, female talent, for there is an abundance of it in Vienna. This is a matter of an institution rejecting such talent. Now, one might defend that rejection on various grounds, but people ought to cut it out with the claim that there just aren't any applicants.
Quote from: CRCulver on April 21, 2010, 09:07:13 PM
The article linked to above notes that the conservatories are producing plenty of female players, and many of the students have come from outside Europe, but upon completing their studies they are not accepted by the Vienna Philharmonic. This is not a matter of lack of non-white, female talent, for there is an abundance of it in Vienna. This is a matter of an institution rejecting such talent. Now, one might defend that rejection on various grounds, but people ought to cut it out with the claim that there just aren't any applicants.
...totally missing my point. I'm saying that modern orchestras sound similar because conservatories impose an international style of playing.
Quote from: springrite on March 29, 2010, 05:51:54 AM
I lived for 22 years in California and, as a minority there, I have never liked "Affirmative Action", and certainly don't want to see it in the VPO.
yeah! Life is not fair, go cry now ;D