Poll
Question:
OK, pick your favorites, in order
Option 1: 1-2-3-4
votes: 0
Option 2: 1-2-4-3
votes: 2
Option 3: 1-3-2-4
votes: 1
Option 4: 1-3-4-2
votes: 2
Option 5: 1-4-2-3
votes: 4
Option 6: 1-4-3-2
votes: 3
Option 7: 2-1-3-4
votes: 2
Option 8: 2-1-4-3
votes: 2
Option 9: 2-3-1-4
votes: 2
Option 10: 2-3-4-1
votes: 3
Option 11: 2-4-1-3
votes: 1
Option 12: 2-4-3-1
votes: 2
Option 13: 3-1-2-4
votes: 1
Option 14: 3-1-4-2
votes: 3
Option 15: 3-2-1-4
votes: 2
Option 16: 3-2-4-1
votes: 1
Option 17: 3-4-1-2
votes: 2
Option 18: 3-4-2-1
votes: 8
Option 19: 4-1-2-3
votes: 6
Option 20: 4-1-3-2
votes: 5
Option 21: 4-2-1-3
votes: 2
Option 22: 4-2-3-1
votes: 2
Option 23: 4-3-1-2
votes: 7
Option 24: 4-3-2-1
votes: 12
I'd have to go with
Three
One
Four
Two ...
What are your picks, in order?
2413. That's changed a few times.
-CS
I will probably place the Fourth at the top forever. (It was the first one I heard, thanks to Bruno Walter's recording.) Its opening gentleness, the fascinating chord progressions, the gorgeous string writing -- I am enchanted every time I hear it. (Not that the other three don't have many of the same delights, of course.)
After that, I honestly like the other three about equally. :D
--Bruce
4321, though 3 and 4 keep changing places.
Difficult choice but once I had the list, ordering it was easy: 4312. Wow, I chose the same four as (almost?) everyone else in this thread! :o
Quote from: Joe Barron on June 21, 2007, 03:16:03 PM
I'd have to go with
Three
One
Four
Two ...
What are your picks, in order?
Exactly the same as yours. I love the opening movement of #3! :)
8)
I like 3 and 1 distinctly less than 2 and 4. The slow movement of 3 is the most boring thing for me in the symphonies.
I have a hard time appreciating Brahms. Mahler though, on the other hand...was easier. :o
Quote from: Bonehelm on June 21, 2007, 04:12:37 PM
I have a hard time appreciating Brahms. Mahler though, on the other hand...was easier. :o
Yes, but unlike Elgar, I think you'll find many people are passionately devoted to Brahms.
Another difficult question...
I'd go 4, 3, 1, 2. ;)
I think 1 and 4 are absolute masterpieces. 2 is okay but I don't like the lazy opening movement. 3 is my least favorite, I never thought it was a great work and feel that had it been written by anybody else not named Brahms it would have not even made the fringe of the standard repertoire. The melodic material is weak and the orchestration, especially the beginning, is extremely busy.
Well, he only wrote 4 symphonies, so I guess those are the top four. :o
Oh, you want me to put them in order of preference:
4-Reiner/RPO
1-Walter/Columbia SO
2-Walter-same
3-Walter-same
Or maybe
1, 4, 2, and 3
4321.
I spent a long Christmas (last year, last Christmas) with them, to learn once again: that there's nothing special about them (not for me, that's to say). So my first choice would be:
0 0 0 0 (no Brahms symphonies - they're simply not really worth mentioning)
A second option:
4 3 2 1 (rather provincial as they are, the Fourth is the best, like a Raff or Stanford, Parry or Elgar symphony - almost)
This is a bit of a tough one - possibly 4, 1, 2, 3 - but that could change. I like Nos. 4 and 1 about equally. However, although I like his symphonies, my true preference is for his chamber music.
One must not forget his two orchestral serenades which, if Brahms had chosen to call them "symphonies", might be more popular today. I heard No. 2 in concert some time ago and loved it. This thread just reminded me that I had intended to get a CD of the serenades, but for some reason never got around to it. I think I'll have to take care of this soon.
Heather
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 21, 2007, 04:03:13 PM
Exactly the same as yours. I love the opening movement of #3! :)
8)
Absolutely!!
3
2
1
4
8)
For me it's 3-4-1-2.
You all have it wrong its 1 3 4 2.
A tie between 4, 2, and 1.
Followed by 3, by a thin margin.
(Heck, why didn't I just make it a four-way tie?)
PS: If push comes to shove, I'd go 4, 1, 2, 3.
4 3 2 1
14 (very close, then large gap), then 32.
4321...he just kept getting better and better.
Sarge
2-3-4-1
Hey, there are "only" 4*3*2*1=24 options in this! Why don't you add a poll? It would make it easier to see which options are most popular. And it would make the thread even more meaningful (if that is even possible). ;D
Here, I'll write them down for you:
1234
1243
1324
1342
1423
1432
2134
2143
2314
2341
2413
2431
3124
3142
3214
3241
3412
3421
4123
4132
4213
4231
4312
4321
Weeeeee! That was fun!
Three
Four
One
Two
Quote from: edward on June 21, 2007, 03:51:24 PM
4321, though 3 and 4 keep changing places.
I'll sign on here.
Quote from: Maciek on June 22, 2007, 03:13:49 AM
Hey, there are "only" 4*3*2*1=24 options in this! Why don't you add a poll? It would make it easier to see which options are most popular. And it would make the thread even more meaningful (if that is even possible). ;D
Here, I'll write them down for you:
1234
1243
1324
1342
1423
1432
2134
2143
2314
2341
2413
2431
3124
3142
3214
3241
3412
3421
4123
4132
4213
4231
4312
4321
Weeeeee! That was fun!
You Polish janitors have entirely too much time on your hands! ;D ;D ;D 8)
1234 :)
Four -- I like very much, especially the first and fourth movements.
Three -- comes second, but I agree with someone about the boring slow movement. The third movement is great, however.
Two -- a long way behind.
One -- in fifty years of listening, I have never taken to this piece. I just find it rather noisy and have given up trying to appreciate it.
Quote from: Harry Collier on June 22, 2007, 04:55:53 AM
Three -- comes second, but I agree with someone about the boring slow movement. The third movement is great, however.
Ach! You're both mad. That
Andante is some of the most exquisite music ever to come out of Germany!
Quote from: bhodges on June 21, 2007, 03:29:55 PM
I will probably place the Fourth at the top forever.
Me too.
Quote
(It was the first one I heard, thanks to Bruno Walter's recording.)
In my case it was Karajan '64.
Sarge
i've changed my opinion many times over time....
but i'd have to go with:
1243
My favorite Brahms symphony is generally the one I've heard most recently.
At the moment, that would be no. 2.
Quote from: Maciek on June 22, 2007, 03:13:49 AM
Hey, there are "only" 4*3*2*1=24 options in this! Why don't you add a poll? It would make it easier to see which options are most popular.
Done, but I can see only the forst four choices on my screen. Oh, well ...
.
1 4 2 3 or 1 4 3 2
3.14
Quote from: Joe Barron on June 21, 2007, 03:16:03 PM
I'd have to go with
Three
One
Four
Two ...
What are your picks, in order?
Where's 3,2,1,4 on the poll?
Quote from: George on June 22, 2007, 07:17:33 AM
Where's 3,2,1,4 on the poll?
Oh, I see you are adding them now. Thanks. :)
yeah, this was hard. I found I could only add one option at a time, and I had to save after each one. But they're all there now. And the data will be absolutely meaningless, as they are in all good polls. I have a feeling if we graph the results, it will be a flat line. ;)
I can easily identify the top 3 ....... But I'm having difficulty with the 4th spot ........
Quote from: Joe Barron on June 22, 2007, 07:28:01 AM
yeah, this was hard. I found I could only add one option at a time, and I had to save after each one. But they're all there now. And the data will be absolutely meaningless, as they are in all good polls. I have a feeling if we graph the results, it will be a flat line. ;)
Or rather, that will be my final result if I see one more list thread. :-[
;)
Quote from: D Minor on June 22, 2007, 07:30:18 AM
I can easily identify the top 3 ....... But I'm having difficulty with the 4th spot ........
;D
I'd vote, but my preferences change every time I listen to one of them! ;D So, my final answer: The one I played or heard last.
anyone wants to start and put all 362880 combinations on Beethoven's top 9 symphonies thread?
Joe, can you post a similar thread for Mozart of Haydn symphonies?
Maybe you could start with Beethoven, that poll would only have 362,880 choices
Quote from: Joe Barron on June 22, 2007, 07:28:01 AM
yeah, this was hard. I found I could only add one option at a time, and I had to save after each one. But they're all there now.
Joe, you're my hero! :D :D :D
I vote to name this
The Perfect GMG Thread!
Ha, after voting I see that my option is not as popular as I expected... At least not yet. ;D
4 3 1 2
That's it, Novitiate, we're going in the right direction. 8)
Quote from: Maciek on June 23, 2007, 12:15:18 AM
That's it, Novitiate, we're going in the right direction. 8)
Cool! Great minds and all that ... ;)
#4 will always be at the top for me 0:). In fact it's right up there with my all time favourite pieces. This was the first Brahms I'd ever heard and I was caught from the get go. This was Kleiber's recording and it still holds top place, although Furtwangler's up there too these days.
#3: I had a single disk with Klemperer's 2 and 3, but unfortunately I never really got on with this one. But then I got Walter's ColSO set. And then his NYPO set. Walter's seem a lot tauter, more exciting.
#1: I'm not sure why, but this one took a long time. I first heard it in performance and it wasn't bad, but not on fire. I just wasn't 'getting' it even after listening to it a fair bit. Then one day I just clicked. I like Furtwangler here.
#2: note that this does not mean I dislike #2, but that I prefer the others more :).
My top four?
Silly, silly question, ALL FOUR of course!
Q
Not silly for me! ;D
The four symphonies are as different from each other as possible, so a ranking among them does reflect on my personality. :)
My criteria:
Works in major keys preferrable to those in minor keys.
Scherzi with both serene and bucolic moments intermingled.
Expanisve first movements are great.
Blazing, energetic finales are a treat.
Moody slow movements are good but they ought to be somewhat tuneful and not too sedate.
Hence 2 > 3 > 4 = 1
Quote from: edward on June 21, 2007, 03:51:24 PM
4321, though 3 and 4 keep changing places.
Interesting.... Why do you like the first the least ?
Mine is 1243.
By the way, the first was Karajan's favorite; he found it the most fascinating and he often programmed it last in concert...
Of course they are all (wonderfully) different.
My favorites in order:
1,4,3,2
4, Piano Concerto 1 and Piano Qt 1 op25 as orchestrated by Schoenberg and the first serenade is quite symphonyish.
Quote from: fl.traverso on June 23, 2007, 08:45:41 PM
My criteria:
Works in major keys preferrable to those in minor keys.
My criteria:
Works in minor keys preferrable to those in major keys.
Ergo: 4/1/3/2
3421
4-3-1-2. Looks like I'm the 2nd most popular...
We have a most popular GMGer thread?
What happens if there's a tie as between two or more symphonies?
Quote from: Dm on January 15, 2008, 03:37:52 AM
What happens if there's a tie as between two or more symphonies?
The thread crashes.
Bump-a-thread Sunday!
My usual order of preference is 4 1 2 3.
Rather different to mine: 4-3-2-1
Mine could be: 3-4-2-1
Funny it almost sounds like a football tactical scheme.....
I voted 4-1-3-2 but it feels very unfair. They are all great but all also have weaknesses for me. The second's last two movements are a bit too "neoclassical" for me and the whole piece doesn't reach as high as the others, I think.
#1 was my first favorite but I now think that the finale and the whole dramatic arch is a bit flawed (because it has to be started again at the beginning of the finale) but I still find it very powerful.
The 4th is about perfect but I don't like the 3rd movement very much (although I appreciate the brilliant idea of having a "false" bright finale before the real tragic finale).
Similarly with the 3rd, where the famous 3rd movement is my least favorite of all Brahms' symphonic movements and while the rest, especially the finale, is great, it's almost a bit too terse and condensed for my taste. With Brahms (at least after the 1st symphony) we often have the avoidance of overly passionate and heroic gestures and I think he overdoes his fondness for small scale lyrical intermezzo movements in the case of 2+3 of the 3rd symphony.
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on June 18, 2022, 10:12:54 PM
Mine could be: 3-4-2-1
Funny it almost sounds like a football tactical scheme.....
Yeahhh ! Same order for me :)
4-3-2 overall
Individual movements:
3/3 - 2/1 - 4/4
I don't care for the 1st.
Quote from: Florestan on June 19, 2022, 08:49:03 AM
4-3-2 overall
Individual movements:
3/3
Admit that this is because of Ingrid Bergman, not the music...
Quote from: Jo498 on June 19, 2022, 09:11:40 AM
Admit that this is because of Ingrid Bergman, not the music...
Nope. It's because of a radio series on classical music which I regularly listened to during my teens, whose sonic signature was 3/3. I discovered the link between it and Ingrid Bergman much later. ;)
What's wrong with the music? I consider it some of the best Brahms ever wrote.
Quote from: Jo498 on June 19, 2022, 12:30:37 AM
I voted 4-1-3-2 but it feels very unfair.
Yeah, basically. If we go by how often I listen to each of them, it's
2-1-4-3, probably. But that's not a value judgment. Rather, the 2nd is a big friendly piece that I can put on and relax to; the 1st is a big dramatic piece that I can let wash over me; the 4th is a rather tense and relentless piece that requires more concentration; the 3rd is an elusive, peculiar symphony that requires me to be in a special mood. But I think they're about equal in terms of quality.
It's like the tired cliché of "Brahms the melancholy". It might have worked for me as a piano or chamber scale impromptu or maybe intermezzo in a chamber piece but I dislike it as a movement in a "real" symphony. To me it sounds too light and too pretentious at the same time, if this oxymoron makes sense to anyone. And "alien" within this symphony. (I am a bit unfair because I also dislike its use in "Aimez-vous Brahms?" but I didn't much care for the piece long before I saw that movie.)
There is so much written about Brahms being hampered by Beethovenian heroic symphonies etc.
But he has no problems at all to write weighty dramatic movements like the outer movements of 1 and 3 and 4 or a huge "pastoral" movement like 2,i. But he seems to avoid the "big Adagio" and even more a real scherzo, instead consciously writes small scale moderato intermezzi for 3rd movements in 1-3, the strange march? in 4 and the slow movement of the 3rd also starts like a serenade (although it gets much bigger later on).
Quote from: Jo498 on June 19, 2022, 12:30:37 AM
I voted 4-1-3-2 but it feels very unfair. They are all great but all also have weaknesses for me. The second's last two movements are a bit too "neoclassical" for me and the whole piece doesn't reach as high as the others, I think.
#1 was my first favorite but I now think that the finale and the whole dramatic arch is a bit flawed (because it has to be started again at the beginning of the finale) but I still find it very powerful.
The 4th is about perfect but I don't like the 3rd movement very much (although I appreciate the brilliant idea of having a "false" bright finale before the real tragic finale).
Similarly with the 3rd, where the famous 3rd movement is my least favorite of all Brahms' symphonic movements and while the rest, especially the finale, is great, it's almost a bit too terse and condensed for my taste. With Brahms (at least after the 1st symphony) we often have the avoidance of overly passionate and heroic gestures and I think he overdoes his fondness for small scale lyrical intermezzo movements in the case of 2+3 of the 3rd symphony.
Agreed that the
Allegro giocoso of the e minor symphony is better in theory (and is for me the weakest
Brahms symphony movement) but the symphony overall is perhaps my favorite of the four, notwithstanding, or maybe the F Major symphony ....
My favorite Brahms symphony is the one by Hans Rott! 8)
I want to say Symphony #4 is the best, but I have never found the last movement satisfactory, and I suspect it is because - as Karl pointed out above - the movement seems better in theory, but (for me at least) it sets up something different from the enigmatic Finale.
So, I guess: 3-4-1-2.
But seriously: my most favorite Brahms symphony is the Second Piano Concerto! ;)
2-1-4-3 for me.
3-1-2-4, but I much prefer the chamber music and three of the concertos, even some of the other orchestral music and the piano solo works. There's just something about these symphonies that doesn't appeal to me.
Since this poll was originally posted, I've gone from 4-3-2-1 to 4-2-3-1 (which, at the time, only one person chose).
Quote from: MusicTurner on June 19, 2022, 11:03:09 AM
I much prefer the chamber music and [...] the concertos, even some of the other orchestral music and the piano solo works.
Agreed. Completely.
3-2-4-1 for me. I love them, but the third is magical for me in a way that transcends the others. Not only do I have a unique rating, but I might also be the only one here that thinks that all four are masterpieces. I love them all without reservation.
Quote from: DavidW on June 19, 2022, 12:13:40 PM...I might also be the only one here that thinks that all four are masterpieces.
You are not the only one.
I also think all 4 are masterpieces. That doesn't mean that there are not some aspects where I "stumble" or am not totally convinced. I don't really prefer Brahms's music in other genres either but I think that he was less hampered there by the weight of tradition than in the symphonies.
I might as well have voted 1-2-4-3, I think only the 3rd would never be in my top 2.
2-1-3-4
Favourite orchestral work by far though and from almost since the beginning of my listening to Brahms is the 1st Piano Concerto.
Quote from: OrchestralNut on June 20, 2022, 07:41:13 AM
Favourite orchestral work by far though and from almost since the beginning of my listening to Brahms is the 1st Piano Concerto.
You just made this more fun!
4
First Serenade
2
Double Concerto
Tragic Overture
Violin Concerto
3
Second Piano Concerto
Second Serenade
Academic Festival Overture
First Piano Concerto
1
Haydn Variations
Quote from: Brian on June 20, 2022, 07:43:26 AM
You just made this more fun!
4
First Serenade
2
Double Concerto
Tragic Overture
Violin Concerto
3
Second Piano Concerto
Second Serenade
Academic Festival Overture
First Piano Concerto
1
Haydn Variations
I like that better! Now I would say:
Sym 3
PC 1
V&C Concerto
VC
I also like the serenades better than the other symphonies, but hey, that's just me. :)
🤠😎
Quote from: DavidW on June 19, 2022, 12:13:40 PM
3-2-4-1 for me. I love them, but the third is magical for me in a way that transcends the others. Not only do I have a unique rating, but I might also be the only one here that thinks that all four are masterpieces. I love them all without reservation.
The
Third is probably the first I came to love. It gives such a sense of opulence, that I was surprised and additionally impressed when I actually dug into the score and saw how "classical" it is.
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 20, 2022, 07:54:17 AM
I also like the serenades better than the other symphonies, but hey, that's just me. :)
It's not just you, it's me as well. ;)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 20, 2022, 10:18:29 AM
The Third is probably the first I came to love. It gives such a sense of opulence, that I was surprised and additionally impressed when I actually dug into the score and saw how "classical" it is.
B3 was my introduction to Brahms, the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra, Herbert von Karajan and Deutsche Grammophon ( from the 1964 cycle ). I was a teenage member of the local youth orchestra, and when the work was programmed l required a recording in case there were percussion parts l needed to memorize, being unable to read music at that time.
Since B3 is scored for no percussion save timpani, l was able to enjoy the orchestra as they rehearsed, as well as the LP at home. Thus it was that the work became the first symphony by someone other than Beethoven that l memorized, and it remains my favorite Brahms composition.
Quote from: LKB on June 20, 2022, 11:09:09 AM
B3 was my introduction to Brahms, the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra, Herbert von Karajan and Deutsche Grammophon ( from the 1964 cycle ). I was a teenage member of the local youth orchestra, and when the work was programmed l required a recording in case there were percussion parts l needed to memorize, being unable to read music at that time.
Since B3 is scored for no percussion save timpani, l was able to enjoy the orchestra as they rehearsed, as well as the LP at home. Thus it was that the work became the first symphony by someone other than Beethoven that l memorized, and it remains my favorite Brahms composition.
Nice!
2-3-1-4. I never could get into the generally-revered Fourth, and I think the Second is a little "underrated"/deserves more attention.
Quote from: DizzyD on June 20, 2022, 11:28:58 AM
2-3-1-4. I never could get into the generally-revered Fourth, and I think the Second is a little "underrated"/deserves more attention.
2 was the last of the four to win me over, just my journey.
Using all 13 of the Symphonies, Serenades, Concerti, Overtures, and Variations, here's my list, top to bottom:
Symphony no. 2
Serenade no. 1
Symphony no. 3
Piano Concerto no. 1
Haydn Variations
Symphony no. 1
Academic Festival Overture
Serenade no. 2
Double Concerto
Symphony no. 4
Piano Concerto no. 2
Violin Concerto
Tragic Overture
top tier: symphonies 1,2,4, violin concerto, piano concerto #2
second tier: symphony #3, piano concerto #1, double concerto
3rd tier: Haydn variations, 1st serenade
4th tier: 2nd serenade, ouvertures
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 20, 2022, 11:45:19 AM
2 was the last of the four to win me over, just my journey.
Well my favorite Beethoven symphony is the Eighth, so go figure. I'm weird. :D
The answer to this question depends mostly on which symphony I've listened to lately, so I'm going to call it a four-way tie.
My favorite Brahms symphony is Dvořák's 7th. :)
Quote from: Cato on June 19, 2022, 10:19:13 AM
But seriously: my most favorite Brahms symphony is the Second Piano Concerto! ;)
Quote from: OrchestralNut on June 20, 2022, 07:41:13 AM
Favourite orchestral work by far though and from almost since the beginning of my listening to Brahms is the 1st Piano Concerto.
Quote from: Brian on June 20, 2022, 07:43:26 AM
You just made this more fun!
...
Double Concerto
Quote from: classicalgeek on June 20, 2022, 11:53:46 AM
Using all 13 of the Symphonies, Serenades, Concerti, Overtures, and Variations, here's my list, top to bottom:
...
Double Concerto
The
Double Concerto I would also choose!
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 20, 2022, 12:48:02 PM
My favorite Brahms symphony is Dvořák's 7th. :)
DUDE! 8) You are in the club! Earlier I had advised:
Quote from: Cato on June 19, 2022, 10:19:13 AM
My favorite Brahms symphony is the one by Hans Rott! 8)
I would also nominate
Dvorak's Symphony #8.
Well, this thread seems to have become Nobody really likes the Brahms symphonies, do they? (An observation, not a complaint.)
Quote from: Cato on June 19, 2022, 10:19:13 AM
My favorite Brahms symphony is the one by Hans Rott! 8)
...
I think that one is actually Mahler's #0. ;D
Quote from: DizzyD on June 20, 2022, 01:23:32 PM
I think that one is actually Mahler's #0. ;D
(* chortle *)
Quote from: Cato on June 20, 2022, 01:06:43 PMDUDE! 8) You are in the club! Earlier I had advised:
I would also nominate Dvorak's Symphony #8.
:D
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 20, 2022, 01:22:22 PM
Well, this thread seems to have become Nobody really likes the Brahms symphonies, do they? (An observation, not a complaint.)
And this would be an astute observation. ;)
Quote from: DizzyD on June 20, 2022, 01:23:32 PM
I think that one is actually Mahler's #0. ;D
Also a possibility! 8)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 20, 2022, 01:22:22 PM
Well, this thread seems to have become Nobody really likes the Brahms symphonies, do they? (An observation, not a complaint.)
;)
I chose 3-4-1-2, but could also have chosen 4-3-1-2.
And that is because of a
Boston Symphony/Koussevitzky RCA recording of the
Fourth Symphony from the Mono era:
https://www.youtube.com/v/eW1PL0wapuM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 20, 2022, 01:22:22 PM
Well, this thread seems to have become Nobody really likes the Brahms symphonies, do they? (An observation, not a complaint.)
It doesn't apply on me. I do love them, and there's no way to compare them with the Serenades, for example. Sorry, reality as it is. :)
I like 3 & 4, lukewarm for 2, meh for 1. :D
They are all strong but 4 and 2 are probably my favourites.
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on June 20, 2022, 06:19:31 PM
It doesn't apply on me. I do love them, and there's no way to compare them with the Serenades, for example. Sorry, reality as it is. :)
I agree; I think the serenades and the three shorter works are all much "lighter" or otherwise not really comparable to the symphonies. I don't dislike them but I could well do without them. The concertos (except the double) are in some ways even larger and more ambitious works than the symphonies, they are all among the longest concertos in standard repertoire (which is not true of the symphonies). Nevertheless I think the challenge in the symphonies was harder for Brahms (he would never have put a comparably short and simple finale in a symphony like the rondos of the violin and double concertos).
Quote from: vandermolen on June 20, 2022, 10:48:44 PM
They are all strong but 4 and 2 are probably my favourites.
Have you heard this performance of the
Fourth Symphony ?
https://www.youtube.com/v/NlxlGd5QfRU
Quote from: Jo498 on June 20, 2022, 11:48:15 PM
I agree; I think the serenades and the three shorter works are all much "lighter" or otherwise not really comparable to the symphonies. I don't dislike them but I could well do without them.
FWIW, I feel much the same.
Quote from: Cato on June 19, 2022, 10:19:13 AMMy favorite Brahms symphony is the one by Hans Rott! 8)
;)
I guess Brahms will not be happy with this. ;)
Quote from: ghmath on November 30, 2023, 03:24:15 AMI guess Brahms will not be happy with this. ;)
;D
Well, a good amount of time has passed: maybe he has changed his mind! 😇
Quote from: Cato on November 30, 2023, 03:42:27 AM;D
Well, a good amount of time has passed: maybe he has changed his mind! 😇
Surely you know the story
https://www.listenmusicculture.com/mastery/madness-thievery#:~:text=Brahms%20took%20a%20bite%20out%20of%20Rott%20with,of%20great%20beauty%20couldn%E2%80%99t%20possibly%20be%20Rott%E2%80%99s%20own.
Quote from: Karl Henning on June 20, 2022, 01:22:22 PMWell, this thread seems to have become Nobody really likes the Brahms symphonies, do they? (An observation, not a complaint.)
Brahms wouldn't be offended by this as he probably hated them all himself.
Quote from: Opus131 on November 30, 2023, 09:33:29 AMBrahms wouldn't be offended by this as he probably hated them all himself.
With many artists, there's a difference between "I critique my own work" and, "oh, you thought I wanted your opinion, eh?"
Quote from: Jo498 on June 20, 2022, 11:48:15 PMI agree; I think the serenades and the three shorter works are all much "lighter" or otherwise not really comparable to the symphonies. I don't dislike them but I could well do without them. The concertos (except the double) are in some ways even larger and more ambitious works than the symphonies, they are all among the longest concertos in standard repertoire (which is not true of the symphonies). Nevertheless I think the challenge in the symphonies was harder for Brahms (he would never have put a comparably short and simple finale in a symphony like the rondos of the violin and double concertos).
The serenades are more intimate than the symphonies, but I find them brilliant within their scope. I wouldn't want to do without anything I've heard from Brahms.
Cato: you can also look at
https://mahlerfoundation.org/mahler/contemporaries/hans-rott/
Does the Brahms/Schoenberg 1st Piano Quartet not qualify as a symphony?
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on November 30, 2023, 12:57:26 PMDoes the Brahms/Schoenberg 1st Piano Quartet not qualify as a symphony?
Barely even qualifies as Brahms, though it is a good work.
If I never ever heard a Brahms symphony anymore, I would not think I lost much, or even anything at all. ;D
Quote from: Florestan on November 30, 2023, 01:52:43 PMIf I never ever heard a Brahms symphony anymore, I would not think I lost much, or even anything at all. ;D
If you've lost the ability to appreciate Brahms you've lost a great deal.
Quote from: ghmath on November 30, 2023, 06:17:59 AMSurely you know the story
https://www.listenmusicculture.com/mastery/madness-thievery#:~:text=Brahms%20took%20a%20bite%20out%20of%20Rott%20with,of%20great%20beauty%20couldn%E2%80%99t%20possibly%20be%20Rott%E2%80%99s%20own.
Oh yes, I know it well! Thanks for the link!
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on November 30, 2023, 12:57:26 PMDoes the Brahms/Schoenberg 1st Piano Quartet not qualify as a symphony?
Schoenberg thought it needed an orchestra and that it did not work well as a piano quartet.
Schoenberg was a great admirer of
Brahms.
Quote from: Florestan on November 30, 2023, 01:52:43 PMIf I never ever heard a Brahms symphony anymore, I would not think I lost much, or even anything at all. ;D
That's ... tragic. :(
Quote from: Spotted Horses on November 30, 2023, 04:40:33 PMIf you've lost the ability to appreciate Brahms you've lost a great deal.
I've always liked Brahms' chamber and piano music. It's the symphonies that do nothing for me.
Quote from: Cato on November 30, 2023, 06:39:02 PMSchoenberg thought it needed an orchestra and that it did not work well as a piano quartet.
Schoenberg was a great admirer of Brahms.
Although I occasionally enjoy the Schönberg orchestration I think he was wrong that it needed orchestration (and I believe Brahms would have been abhorred by the cheesy percussion, as fun as it might appear to us) and I wonder why he apparently only encountered poor performances of the piece.
Quote from: Florestan on November 30, 2023, 11:48:54 PMI've always liked Brahms' chamber and piano music. It's the symphonies that do nothing for me.
Lieder?
Quote from: ghmath on December 01, 2023, 03:20:44 AMLieder?
Yes, Lieder too. When it comes to orchestral music, I greatly prefer the concertos and the serenades to the symphonies.
Quote from: Jo498 on December 01, 2023, 12:34:44 AMAlthough I occasionally enjoy the Schönberg orchestration I think he was wrong that it needed orchestration (and I believe Brahms would have been abhorred by the cheesy percussion, as fun as it might appear to us) and I wonder why he apparently only encountered poor performances of the piece.
"Cheesy" is a good word for Schoenberg's xylophone and other gadgetry. But I enjoy the piece too, especially in the wild Robert Craft/CSO recording and the ballet as choreographed by Balanchine.
(PS: on the Schönberg/Schoenberg distinction, I believe he came to use the -oe- form when he came to America, the English alphabet and typewriter keyboards not having the umlauted form. It doesn't help, because most Americans don't know how to pronounce the umlauted o anyway and what you generally hear is Schonberg. But the umlauted o shouldn't be hard; it's similar to the vowel found in words like her, bird, earn, and burn without the following r. It's the umlauted u that has no English equivalent. I defer of course to any corrections to the above Jo498 cares to offer.)
Quote from: Florestan on December 01, 2023, 03:26:30 AMYes, Lieder too. When it comes to orchestral music, I greatly prefer the concertos and the serenades to the symphonies.
Hmm. I'm not a huge fan of either the 1st piano concerto or the double, though I love the 2nd piano and the violin. Love the 4th and 2nd symphony especially, and also the serenades and the three short orchestral pieces.
Academic Festival, btw, which I consider a lot of fun, figures in Joseph Mankiewicz's 1951 film "People Will Talk," where Cary Grant conducts it at the movie's end. This film also btw includes a mysterious taciturn character known as Shunderson, played by Finlay Currie. I am absolutely convinced, though I cannot prove, that Currie was made up here to look like Anton Bruckner.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on December 01, 2023, 05:00:46 AM"Cheesy" is a good word for Schoenberg's xylophone and other gadgetry. But I enjoy the piece too, especially in the wild Robert Craft/CSO recording and the ballet as choreographed by Balanchine.
I lack the imagination to imagine it as ballet but it sure sounds interesting. I support the Craft recommendation (although I have probably not heard more than 2 others).
Quote(PS: on the Schönberg/Schoenberg distinction, I believe he came to use the -oe- form when he came to America, the English alphabet and typewriter keyboards not having the umlauted form. It doesn't help, because most Americans don't know how to pronounce the umlauted o anyway and what you generally hear is Schonberg. But the umlauted o shouldn't be hard; it's similar to the vowel found in words like her, bird, earn, and burn without the following r. It's the umlauted u that has no English equivalent. I defer of course to any corrections to the above Jo498 cares to offer.)
I could not have explained it better. The sound is often a little different than in "bird" (a bit longer and more closed) but occurs also in French (e.g. "peu") and represented by the crossed "o" in several Scandinavian languages.
I didn't think about it while typing, but yes, Schoenberg used this spelling in the US.
I have an umlaut in my last name as well and when I went to university for a year in the US I ended up with different spellings in important documents because I could not convince the lady in the ID card office to use "oe" instead of plain "o". So I had ö, oe (in my German/internat IDs/cards) and o (in the Washington State ID) and was sometimes a bit anxious that someone would get suspicious when I'd present the ID together with a credit card or so that had a different spelling. But I don't think I ever ran into any trouble (it was also mid-1990s before war on terror).
Quote from: Florestan on November 30, 2023, 01:52:43 PMIf I never ever heard a Brahms symphony anymore, I would not think I lost much, or even anything at all. ;D
Well, but you feel similarly about the
LvB Op. 92. I think your ears need a re-set. If I heard the
Brahms symphonies as frequently as Classical Radio programs them, I expect I'd grow weary of them at last,,too.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on December 01, 2023, 05:00:46 AM"Cheesy" is a good word for Schoenberg's xylophone and other gadgetry. But I enjoy the piece too, especially in the wild Robert Craft/CSO recording ....
So do I.
I'm fondest of Brahms' Third. It's one of the first classical pieces l memorized, and introduced me ( via vinyl ) to both von Karajan and Lothar Koch, the oboist most responsible to my taking up that instrument after several years in percussion.
As for the other symphonies, l enjoy the Fourth, Second and First, in that order.
Quote from: LKB on December 01, 2023, 06:13:16 AMI'm fondest of Brahms' Third. It's one of the first classical pieces l memorized, and introduced me ( via vinyl ) to both von Karajan and Lothar Koch, the oboist most responsible to my taking up that instrument after several years in percussion.
As for the other symphonies, l enjoy the Fourth, Second and First, in that order.
That is my order as well.
Quote from: Jo498 on December 01, 2023, 05:37:19 AMI lack the imagination to imagine it as ballet but it sure sounds interesting. I support the Craft recommendation (although I have probably not heard more than 2 others).
Here are some bits of it, in varying degrees of audio/video quality:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-BL3OOu_Sg&t=2s (3rd mvt., no sound)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CVDbhYUCIs&t=1s (finale)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laUkTXmz7m8 (finale, excerpt, good video)
Balanchine choreographed all kinds of things, including a surprisingly good Goldberg Variations. His Bizet Symphony in C is just glorious, especially the finale - though best experienced live:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fn1ZVGp0plc&t=1449s
Quote from: Cato on November 30, 2023, 06:39:02 PMSchoenberg thought it [Brahms Piano Quartet No.1] needed an orchestra and that it did not work well as a piano quartet.
I can't understand why Schoenberg singled out that piano quartet for such a comment, I find it a rather magnificent thing. I don't recall hearing his transcription of it, though I have no problem with him doing so. I'll have a listen and hope to enjoy it, and perhaps find some illumination as to what motivated him.
Quote from: Karl Henning on December 01, 2023, 05:37:58 AMWell, but you feel similarly about the LvB Op. 92.
True. The only LvB symphonies I still like are 1, 2, 6 and 8. In general when it comes to the 19th century the symphony is my least favorite genre.
Quote from: Florestan on December 01, 2023, 09:31:50 AMThe only LvB symphonies I still like are 1, 2, 6 and 8. In general when it comes to the 19th century the symphony is my least favorite genre.
Oh, my ... :-\
Quote from: Florestan on December 01, 2023, 09:31:50 AMTrue. The only LvB symphonies I still like are 1, 2, 6 and 8. In general when it comes to the 19th century the symphony is my least favorite genre.
Well, one likes what one likes, of course.
Quote from: Iota on December 01, 2023, 08:51:56 AMI can't understand why Schoenberg singled out that piano quartet for such a comment, I find it a rather magnificent thing. I don't recall hearing his transcription of it, though I have no problem with him doing so. I'll have a listen and hope to enjoy it, and perhaps find some illumination as to what motivated him.
As mentioned earlier:
Quote from: Cato on December 01, 2023, 10:52:59 AMAs mentioned earlier:
Those videos are unavailable for me I'm afraid.
One doesn't have to love Brahms' symphonies. Some were just unlucky, they didn't stumble upon the right performance that could create a miracle, ignite passion. I was lucky enough to buy in late 70s a Soviet box of licensed editions of all Brahms symphonies in a magnificent performance by Karl Böhm with the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra. Thats how it all really started for me with Brahms.
I don't see how one can place the Brahms symphonies in order of preference. Each symphony is wonderful in its own way.
(https://i.discogs.com/u5dcCt0dSkM7TlefkVgR3s6KtiXONItzCesizwlXtWU/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:592/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTY5ODU1/NjYtMTYwNjYzODM3/Ni00MzQ4LmpwZWc.jpeg)
Bohm is just exceptional in Brahms!!
Quote from: Karl Henning on December 01, 2023, 09:38:26 AMWell, one likes what one likes, of course.
I think that is what I would say if someone told me they loved country/western music! >:D
Quote from: DavidW on December 02, 2023, 03:58:17 AMI think that is what I would say if someone told me they loved country/western music! >:D
Hey, I like country/western music! ;D
Quote from: Florestan on December 02, 2023, 04:27:02 AMHey, I like country/western music! ;D
Depends on the country.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on December 02, 2023, 06:22:15 AMDepends on the country.
In my case, it's the USA. Kenny Rogers, Dolly Parton, stuff like that. I consider
The Gambler and
The Coward of the County as immortal masterpieces. And the Ray Charles / Willie Nelson combo singing
Seven Spanish Angels never fails to bring tears in my eyes.
Quote from: Cato on November 30, 2023, 06:39:02 PMSchoenberg thought it needed an orchestra and that it did not work well as a piano quartet.
Schoenberg was a great admirer of Brahms.
I think the real question is how much he admired himself.
In that sense, i'm also a bit suspect of his supposed "admiration" for Brahms. That he liked his music i do not question, but there seems to be a bit of self-promotion hidden in there as well given he considered Brahms an important step towards his conception of "variation" in music.
I do not want to offend any Schoenberg admirer here, but i cannot help myself but see some ulterior ideological agenda in a lot of his utterances.
Anyway, i for one love the symphonies of Brahms and my vote is for the very vanilla 4-3-2-1.