Please join in if you wish to. I will also try to reupload the recordings individually.
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I scraped together 16 recordings of the etude which concludes Chopin's Sonata nr 2. I omitted 5 of those as they were either too well-known (2) or lacking in what I thought of as an individual sound (3). Therefore we have 11. Not my favourite 11--I could not include my favourite recording--but I think an excellent selection -- all 11 offer something different, and I think 8, perhaps 9 of these are individual enough to be quite recognisable. A few of them are of the sort that, if you hear them once, you're likely to recognise them forever after. Of the 11, only 1 is not commercially available. A few of the recordings have dated sound.
all 11 - http://rapidshare.com/files/39536518/finale.rar
separate tracks - http://rapidshare.com/users/TSHA31
orbital:
"I was able to download the big batch file. These are tough, I may have three guesses at most:
No2 - Brand (I was listening to his recording just yesterday, and the right hand notes tend to stand out more than usual in his reading)
No8 - Gavrilov (mostly because his is the one with the least pedal I know)
No10 - Michelangeli (the sonata no2 that I have tends to have this motor-like drive in the phrases where he gathers speed and loudness in those fast runs, just like this No. 10 here)
There are some very interesting readings here, and most are unique as well. Perhaps I maydo some comparitive listening at home, if this is not considered cheating. "
individual tracks can be downloaded from this folder: http://rapidshare.com/users/TSHA31
Guys, I apologize for impolitely roaming this thread earlier. I sometimes get annoyed quickly, I'll keep an eye on myself in the future. Thanks for the mods for clearing up the thread...and everyone have a nice time with the guessing game. And you can always come over to mine if you wish! ;D
I'm pretty sure that No.6 is Michelangeli
Why?
Next few lines I'd like to solely dedicate to Society for Preserving the Wellbeing of Blue Dragons (S.P.W.B.D)
Because of the evenness of runs, of the fullness of sound in those swells, the refusal to milk that slow passage before the final bangs (for opposite check clip 11), because even if that final bang is very loud tone is glorious and doesn't harden for a moment.
8)
Quote from: Drasko on June 27, 2007, 12:32:11 PM
I'm pretty sure that No.6 is Michelangeli
Why?
Yes indeed Mr. Drasko, you nailed it. Nice observations. It's the BBC Legends live performance, from '59 I think.
Now could you please make public your other 7 guesses (barring the 3 which I sent you before)?
QuoteNo8 - Gavrilov (mostly because his is the one with the least pedal I know)
Do you have one of Gavrilov's recordings to listen to? I've heard 3 recordings by him, the most recent from a '99 or '00 recital in Germany (released on a German CD). He is extremely quick, slamming it home in about 60, 61, 62 seconds, something like that. At no time did I ever hear him pay so much attention to detail as this number 8. In fact I'd go as far as to say that number 8 pulls out voices that no other pianist has (and I suspect no other pianist could do, or very, very few at most). That's not to say that 8 colours his performance as much as, say, 1 or 7 or 9 or 10--I don't think he does--but the voices which he highlights are ones I've never heard before, and that in itself is something remarkable considering how often this work has been played. And the way he does it too, as you mentioned.
It's not one of the ones I like most here though. I'd say my favourite of these is number 10 -- dark, tense, with insane voices flying out like sparks. The calculated details of 9 are remarkable too.
I agree with George -- 7 is quite special, highlighting certain voices but not overdoing it, maintaining the "wind over the graves".
Hint: 7 studied with 10 8)
Does anyone like 1? That is another with a surfeit of detailed voices. Or the way 11 concludes?
One very interesting thing -- all 3 of you have remarked positively of number 2, mentioning Brand and Pogorelich as possibilities. I can tell you it's neither one and that the pianist in question should be better known. It's a well-balanced performance, bound to impress without going over the top as some have here.
Quote from: sidoze on June 27, 2007, 01:18:42 PM
Do you have one of Gavrilov's recordings to listen to? I've heard 3 recordings by him, the most recent from a '99 or '00 recital in Germany (released on a German CD). He is extremely quick, slamming it home in about 60, 61, 62 seconds, something like that. At no time did I ever hear him pay so much attention to detail as this number 8. In fact I'd go as far as to say that number 8 pulls out voices that no other pianist has (and I suspect no other pianist could do, or very, very few at most). That's not to say that 8 colours his performance as much as, say, 1 or 7 or 9 or 10--I don't think he does--but the voices which he highlights are ones I've never heard before, and that in itself is something remarkable considering how often this work has been played. And the way he does it too, as you mentioned.
Sure, I'll put it up. It is the recordig with the 4 Ballades + this sonata.
I don't think it was anything below 1 minute though, probably in the 1:15-1:25 range even. I may be way off, but with little/less pedaling, Gavrilov was the first that came to mind. That and the thundering ending.
With regards to not paying enough attention to details, perhaps so, but his studies are not bad at all.
Quote from: sidoze on June 27, 2007, 01:18:42 PM
Now could you please make public your other 7 guesses (barring the 3 which I sent you before)?
Just to clarify for the others: sidoze and I were discussing few performances of this piece several days ago, before this quiz was even considered and now those came up in this bunch (5,7,10). He didn't tell me which they are (and even edited some applause out) but it is still fairly easy to guess something I listened that recently.
QuoteHint: 7 studied with 10
But didn't even come close to his teacher
QuoteOne very interesting thing -- all 3 of you have remarked positively of number 2, mentioning Brand and Pogorelich as possibilities. I can tell you it's neither one and that the pianist in question should be better known.
Maybe that is the reason, lack of distinctive voice? I was almost sure it was Pogorelich.
Quote from: orbital on June 27, 2007, 02:27:54 PM
I don't think it was anything below 1 minute though, probably in the 1:15-1:25 range even. I may be way off, but with little/less pedaling, Gavrilov was the first that came to mind. That and the thundering ending.
The last Gavrilov recording I heard (the live German one) just went past 60 seconds. I don't recall the timings of the other ones but I doubt they were much slower -- we all know he could never slow down. I have a very early live Liszt La Campanella by him and he plays the coda so fast that you can hardly hear it.
Quote
With regards to not paying enough attention to details, perhaps so, but his studies are not bad at all.
His studies are wonderful -- I'd almost call them boyish in the way he tosses some of them off so nonchalantly. I don't recall such fond memories of this particular finale though. If you could upload it that would be great, because all I remember is him whirring past in a blur.
QuoteBut didn't even come close to his teacher
I agree. Ultimately it's not of the same shocking quality, though I think it has moments of its own, certainly enough to be included here. In any case I thought it was the best part of the disc, aside from the stunning way he plays the very end of the Funeral March.
Quote
Maybe that is the reason, lack of distinctive voice?
I'm not sure about that. I think it has a lot going for it, perhaps most of all the diminuendo that starts at about 52 seconds for those repeated bell-sounding notes, and the way he becomes quite violent once they end. It adds character to the piece, more so than you'd get from a frenetic dash.
Quote from: sidoze on June 27, 2007, 03:01:47 PM
The last Gavrilov recording I heard (the live German one) just went past 60 seconds.
And yet he doesn't beat Berman's 50 seconds.
Here:
http://download.yousendit.com/B4359CF60F331409
It is at 1:18, but it's got a little more blur than I remembered.
Quote from: Manuel on June 27, 2007, 04:47:21 PM
And yet he doesn't beat Berman's 50 seconds.
I don't know that one, but I'm fairly certain I wouldn't like it.
You know a lot about pianists, why don't you listen to these?
QuoteHere:
Thanks :)
Gave some of those one more spin and have to admit that this is very difficult, with this amount of performances in short time span all tends to blur, and any comparative listening would probably give me a headache.
I was seriously considering Francois for No.1 but I'm leaning even more toward him possibly being No.8, there aren't that many somewhat dry toned pianist with that kind of pointed articulation around.
Quote from: sidoze on June 27, 2007, 01:18:42 PM
I'd say my favourite of these is number 10 -- dark, tense, with insane voices flying out like sparks. The calculated details of 9 are remarkable too.
I could agree with this.
QuoteDoes anyone like....................the way 11 concludes?
Actually I don't really like that, No.11 is interesting with some impressive velocity unleashed at moments, and the singing 'tune' at 1'05 and onwards is very lovely but to me playing overall sounds touch monochrome and that drawn-out pause is an overkill, even vulgar. It kinda reminded me of Katsaris, have no idea if it is him, but had few chances to hear him live lately and he is rather annoyingly prone to those dramatic pauses while looking at ceiling and waving hands in the air in some knowing sort of
didn't I tell you so manner.
Now I'm off to listen to some Bruckner for next few days.
Quote from: Drasko on June 28, 2007, 02:57:11 AM
Gave some of those one more spin and have to admit that this is very difficult, with this amount of performances in short time span all tends to blur, and any comparative listening would probably give me a headache.
This is probably the last time I do something like this, so why not go all out? :)
Quote
I was seriously considering Francois for No.1 but I'm leaning even more toward him possibly being No.8, there aren't that many somewhat dry toned pianist with that kind of pointed articulation around.
Francois' Sonata 2 is wonderful, especially the dark opening he conjured up. AFAIK he made two recordings -- the one in the GPOC and Chopin sets the better one than the (I believe earlier) one in the big white Introuvables set.
Quote
Actually I don't really like that, No.11 is interesting with some impressive velocity unleashed at moments, and the singing 'tune' at 1'05 and onwards is very lovely but to me playing overall sounds touch monochrome and that drawn-out pause is an overkill, even vulgar. It kinda reminded me of Katsaris, have no idea if it is him, but had few chances to hear him live lately and he is rather annoyingly prone to those dramatic pauses while looking at ceiling and waving hands in the air in some knowing sort of didn't I tell you so manner.
thanks for that. I get a similar impression about Katsaris, though I've never seen him live or heard his sonata 2 (Deacon thinks his finale is even wilder than Brand's). I think everyone--well, you 3--will be surprised by who the pianist is. I was.
Any other guesses? Or should I just let it all out now?
Quote
Now I'm off to listen to some Bruckner for next few days.
I've been listening to Asahina -- one poster has flooded the group with multiple live recordings. I rather like him, even though it's not exactly viscerally exciting.
Quote from: sidoze on June 27, 2007, 11:02:02 PM
You know a lot about pianists, why don't you listen to these?
I loaded them in my Ipod and listened them in my way to the University; but I can't really give too much attention while commuting. I hope to have some free time next week to dedicate to this.
Quote from: sidoze on June 28, 2007, 03:26:24 AM
I've been listening to Asahina -- one poster has flooded the group with multiple live recordings. I rather like him, even though it's not exactly viscerally exciting.
I've only heard a few Asahina Bruckner recordings but I think from what I've heard they are very fresh sounding, very vibrant. Although the discs I have have exceptional sound, so my impressions might be a bit biased. I have a #7 by him that is probably one of the fastest I've ever heard...but most of it is pulled off very well, and very interestingly.
Don't mean to derail your thread, just that Asahina hardly gets any coverage at GMG, so I had to comment.
--CS
Quote from: CS on June 28, 2007, 05:10:34 AM
I've only heard a few Asahina Bruckner recordings but I think from what I've heard they are very fresh sounding, very vibrant. Although the discs I have have exceptional sound, so my impressions might be a bit biased. I have a #7 by him that is probably one of the fastest I've ever heard...but most of it is pulled off very well, and very interestingly.
Don't mean to derail your thread, just that Asahina hardly gets any coverage at GMG, so I had to comment.
--CS
No problem at all. I'll send you the links via PM.
Quote from: George on June 28, 2007, 05:22:39 AM
I watched the timings as the movement ends - he's actually at 1:07. :o
So is clip 5.
Gavrilov's live German account is a few seconds faster. But I think speed counts for very little here.
Quote from: CS on June 28, 2007, 05:10:34 AM
Don't mean to derail your thread, just that Asahina hardly gets any coverage at GMG, so I had to comment.
You should join OperaShare, there are lots of live recordings of Asahina there.
Quote from: George on June 28, 2007, 06:53:51 AM
Really?
I disagree, it's a finale and I like my finale's brisk, especially when marked Presto. :-\
Sure, it's presto. But in matters of detail and voicing, there's no comparison between the 67 second ones and ones like numbers 1, 9 and 10. They just have so much more colour and character, even if slightly slower.
Quote from: George on June 28, 2007, 10:04:30 AM
Yeah, I didn't like those as much. Like I said, we disagree. :D
Quote from: George on June 27, 2007, 09:43:40 AM
Thanks Tony!
OK, I will comment first on the ones that I enjoyed:
2 - Nice excitement and expressivity.
7 - Not the most expressive, but VERY impressive in spots.
8 - Probably my favorite, incredible tension and loved the powerful ending!
10 - Had all the necessary ingredients: nice tension, power and expressivity.
The others didn't move me
Actually, you are only disagreeing with yourself :)
Quote from: Manuel on June 28, 2007, 06:49:39 AM
You should join OperaShare, there are lots of live recordings of Asahina there.
I belong, but stopped going there so often when I stopped paying for Rapidshare. I'll probably buy a month or three soon, when i have the time to sit and download everything I want. :)
You call sidoze's clip short >:D
How about this? Identify the following 5 pieces from their very beginning. The first clip only has the opening note, the second one has two, the third three and so on. I counted chords as 1 note, the broken ones as seperate notes. Strangely enough, the clip with the opening single note only may be the easiest to identify >:D
The best part is no rapidshare needed, and I don't expect you to guess the pianist >:D
Clips 5, 4, 3, 2 here:
Clip 1 here:
That's going to be hard, I'll try it tonight. I've also got 2 Chopin Ballade 1s to compare which I'll upload tonight.
Quote from: orbital on July 05, 2007, 08:43:53 PM
.........and I don't expect you to guess the pianist >:D
how nice of you
1. Rachmaninov
2. Chopin
those are wildest guesses imaginable (wilder are only reported seen somewhere in rainforests of amazonia)
Quote from: orbital on July 05, 2007, 08:43:53 PM
You call sidoze's clip short >:D
How about this? Identify the following 5 pieces from their very beginning. The first clip only has the opening note, the second one has two, the third three and so on. I counted chords as 1 note, the broken ones as seperate notes. Strangely enough, the clip with the opening single note only may be the easiest to identify >:D
The best part is no rapidshare needed, and I don't expect you to guess the pianist >:D
Clips 5, 4, 3, 2 here:
Can't get 'em all. I'd say:
2: Schumann Toccata
4: Chopin Fantasie Impromptu
5: Schubert Sonata in A
I listened to 1 on my computer speaker and guess it's the Chopin Barcarolle.
i'll guess 2 is a Rach etude.
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on July 06, 2007, 06:54:23 AM
5: Schubert Sonata in A
Bingo!
Pianist is Richter FWIW :)
Quote from: sidoze on July 06, 2007, 07:15:07 AM
I listened to 1 on my computer speaker and guess it's the Chopin Barcarolle.
You guess right. Cherkassy hitting it.
Quote from: orbital on July 06, 2007, 07:42:04 AM
Hint: Number 2 is a sonata which is "supposed" to be shorter than it is.
well that could be any of Beethoven's ::)
I'm not sure what it is. On my computer at work it sounded like that Rachmaninoff etude with the giant striding steps (don't remember which number it is). I checked Schumann's Sonata 1 as that's always a work I felt should be shorter -- but it's not that. That however lead me to sonata 2 and I'd forgotten how wonderful this work is. Richter live in Italy '62 8)
Quote from: sidoze on July 06, 2007, 11:53:57 AM
That however lead me to sonata 2 and I'd forgotten how wonderful this work is. Richter live in Italy '62 8)
This is like yawning... highly contagious. I have another 1962 recording from the Kiev set. Just put it on. It is a very good work, but a lot of credit also has to go to Richter here.
As for the pieces, I tried to put fairly known pieces (perhaps except for the 4th clip, but I thought the opening is distinctive enough for anyone who has listened to it to recognize it).
Number 2 is froma period later than Schumann (and it tends to get quite dissonant). I agree with you about Beethoven :D but what I mean here is the title of the piece making the suggestion.
Quote from: orbital on July 06, 2007, 12:15:30 PM
Number 2 is froma period later than Schumann (and it tends to get quite dissonant). I agree with you about Beethoven :D but what I mean here is the title of the piece making the suggestion.
Ah, now you're making it too easy, it's
Feruccio Busoni - Sonatina brevis in signo Joannis Sebastiani Magni, K.280
no?
Quote from: Drasko on July 06, 2007, 12:47:14 PM
Ah, now you're making it too easy, it's
Feruccio Busoni - Sonatina brevis in signo Joannis Sebastiani Magni, K.280
no?
No. HArd to believe coming from me, but still further ahead (30 years or so ::)
Quote from: orbital on July 06, 2007, 12:15:30 PM
This is like yawning... highly contagious. I have another 1962 recording from the Kiev set. Just put it on. It is a very good work, but a lot of credit also has to go to Richter here.
As for the pieces, I tried to put fairly known pieces (perhaps except for the 4th clip, but I thought the opening is distinctive enough for anyone who has listened to it to recognize it).
Number 2 is froma period later than Schumann (and it tends to get quite dissonant). I agree with you about Beethoven :D but what I mean here is the title of the piece making the suggestion.
I listened again and I don't recognise 2, 3 or 4. For a moment I thought 4 could be the Gubaidulina Chaconne, but a check reminded me that the latter is much stronger (well, blindingly violent really). I'm going to sit on the sidelines now :)
Drasko: nice one :)
Hmm, could 4 be the start of Scriabin 5?
Although the current game isn't over I want to put these up because there are only a few days left to download them. They're two contrasting versions of Chopin's Ballade 1, one lean and forward-looking, the other more introverted and spacious. I'd be interested in opinions on them more than guessing the pianist.
http://download.yousendit.com/B70C744E4C62B11F
http://download.yousendit.com/603A6EA456975C45
I'll end it. I don't want to drag those topics very long.
2 is Ives - 3 Page Sonata
4 is Messiaen's 1st etude de rhytme (that was a bit obscure perhaps, but the opening is not quite forgettable)
But I am surprised 3 is not discovered.
Quote from: sidoze on July 07, 2007, 03:42:37 AM
Although the current game isn't over I want to put these up because there are only a few days left to download them. They're two contrasting versions of Chopin's Ballade 1, one lean and forward-looking, the other more introverted and spacious. I'd be interested in opinions on them more than guessing the pianist.
http://download.yousendit.com/B70C744E4C62B11F
http://download.yousendit.com/603A6EA456975C45
Can you use another service Tony? These links will not allow for download (apparently you have exhausted your download limit)
Quote from: orbital on July 07, 2007, 09:00:22 AM
I'll end it. I don't want to drag those topics very long.
2 is Ives - 3 Page Sonata
4 is Messiaen's 1st etude de rhytme (that was a bit obscure perhaps, but the opening is not quite forgettable)
But I am surprised 3 is not discovered.
:) okay it was rather obvious that 4 wasn't the Scriabin 5, but I thought perhaps the pianist delayed hitting something for the effect you hear. Anyway I haven't even heard those works. ::)
QuoteCan you use another service Tony? These links will not allow for download (apparently you have exhausted your download limit)
sorry, will do.
okay I've uploaded them to rapidshare for those who wish to hear the work
http://rapidshare.com/files/41600878/Track1.mp3
http://rapidshare.com/files/41600879/Track2.mp3
Alright, I will not try and make any guesses for the pianists involved, except that the first one (10:30 one) is a male pianist as can be heard from his constant grunting ;D
This is a piece I enjoy a lot, I often think that I can not think of a single movement piano work that I like more than op 23, and I listen to different versions whenever I can and I am always happy to hear unconventional recordings of the piece.
First things first: I'd prefer the first one (by first I mean the 10:30 one) by a very long margin for my own listening purposes. This is probably the first time I'm hearing a version this long and it was quite revelatory for me. I liked the sudden changes in the mood (played even to a deeper effect than the norm here), very clean chords throughout much of the piece (at times s/he cuts the chords very short but s/he uses it to a great effect), but more than anything else the Presto Con Fuoco section where the playing is crystal clear. I always had a problem with the part near the end where pianists cannot play with a certain rhythm, actually I have not heard any version that does not disappoint here, but this one gets pretty close. Then comes the upwards run followed by the downwards one which never ever fails to send shivers down my spine. And this one where the run is played slowed down to easily half the regular tempo and the sudden drop to piano is very remarkable. It just seems to be one of those inspired moments that I always look more for.
This performance is very expressive but without a shred of mannerism. The pianist conveys a very special mood that suits the music. Unlike Horowitz who plays this music expressively in his own way ruining the music in the process.
The second one by comparison has nothing extraordinary to offer to me. This one is full 2 minutes shorter than the other one. The music is well played throughout but without anything to be remembered by. I'd probably never choose this one to listen to by myself. The detached way of approaching the music works in a lot of instances, but those that do generally have a unique way of coldness. Michelangeli for example, or even Francois. They are, in a way, expressive in their detachment. But this performer here is playing right through the music IMO.
I went one step further and decided to apply the test to someone who is not very familiar with the work -my wife :) She knows the piece, but does not generally listen to it, and I doubt if she knows the subtleties either.
In order to do the test I thought we would first listen to a bipartisan version together. A version that is well played, more or less in line with the way it is written out. I chose Ashkenazy's Decca recording which I still enjoy a lot. We listened to that one first. I made her listen to the Presto/coda section twice to make sure that seh has a blueprint for the way the music generally goes and ends. Then we listened to the first one (the coda twice) and then the second one again with the coda repeated.
She liked the second one better, saying that she understood the music better, it was more compact and the main ideas were all there without the overwhelming effort she said was in the first version.
So my thoughts are: I prefer the first (introverted) one by a very long margin, but it probably would not be a good recording to introduce someone to the piece. If one got accustomed to the music by listening to this version, all mainstream versions would sound weird I guess.
I would be interested to know the pianist for the first clip. Can you PM me if you don't want to reveal it here?
That was great Alain, thanks for writing about them.
Quote from: orbital on July 09, 2007, 07:54:18 AM
Then comes the upwards run followed by the downwards one which never ever fails to send shivers down my spine. And this one where the run is played slowed down to easily half the regular tempo and the sudden drop to piano is very remarkable. It just seems to be one of those inspired moments that I always look more for.
This is my favourite moment from this recording, along with one that comes earlier when he plays slowly and quietly (much more so than any other recording I'm familiar with -- I don't have the timings right now). He creates a beautiful sense of mystery here. It's certainly a unique performance, played in a manner I haven't heard before. It's by Evgeny Zarafiants, a little known Russian pianist who has recorded 2 or 3 CDs for Naxos, but more importantly has made half a dozen or more for a Japanese label. This particular one includes all 4 Ballades and in my opinion this was the best of the lot. Other CDs I've heard include Rachmaninoff's 2nd sonata--another personal performance--and one that includes Chopin's 3rd Sonata. I found the latter rather insensitive in spite of his spacious, introverted approach. He certainly has his own way of interpreting things--which is nothing but good--though for the most part it doesn't work for me. I will sell all 3 of these CDs on Ebay very soon so if you'd like any of them please just email me.
The second recording is by Gilels, recorded live in Budapest in 1963 (on Music & Arts). It's one of my favourite performances of the work, along with Francois. I've always thought that Ballade 1 should receive a strong, forward-looking performance, and should be distanced from too much introspection and any sort of sickliness which sometimes is associated with the composer (perhaps especially from later periods). It's a youthful work and I find that it sounds best when played youthfully (simple as). I certainly admire longer, more introverted interpretations such as the Zarafiants and Moravec; I just think they emphasise one side of Chopin to the detriment of the other. I can't agree with you that he's playing through the music, but it's certainly not as heated as the one by Francois.
I'm happy that the A / B comparison worked, as I purposefully used two entirely different approaches. Cheers :)
Quote from: sidoze on July 10, 2007, 04:33:10 AM
The second recording is by Gilels, recorded live in Budapest in 1963 (on Music & Arts). It's one of my favourite performances of the work, along with Francois. I've always thought that Ballade 1 should receive a strong, forward-looking performance, and should be distanced from too much introspection and any sort of sickliness which sometimes is associated with the composer (perhaps especially from later periods). It's a youthful work and I find that it sounds best when played youthfully (simple as). I certainly admire longer, more introverted interpretations such as the Zarafiants and Moravec; I just think they emphasise one side of Chopin to the detriment of the other. I can't agree with you that he's playing through the music, but it's certainly not as heated as the one by Francois.
Precisely the reason why I said I wouldn't play it as a preferred version. If I want it youthful there is Francois, and there is Barere, and Gavrilov and Zimmerman and even Cortot to choose from.
Looks like when it comes to Chopin Gilels hardly appeals to me (his preludes ::))
Of course I agree that the sickly Chopin method is nothing more than a caricaturisation of his music, and I generally detest that. I don't think that's what we have here, or perhaps yes. One has to listen to other ballades too. I am making a casual decision on one piece alone. If he plays each piece the same way, than it would not be a moment of inspiration but a deliberate attempt to dramatize the music (which can easily turn me off). Therefore, I am only talking about the merits of one-on-one comparision.
Perhaps another point to consider in chosing the better version for me is to ask: Which version would I prefer to hear live? How would I feel hearing the first version as an encore to end an evening? (A:Wonderful :D ). How about the second? (A: Eeh ;D)
Quote from: orbital on July 10, 2007, 09:08:43 AM
Precisely the reason why I said I wouldn't play it as a preferred version. If I want it youthful there is Francois, and there is Barere, and Gavrilov and Zimmerman and even Cortot to choose from.
Interesting... I never thought of Zimerman's performance as particularly "youthful," though I do enjoy it tremendously.
Quote from: orbital on July 10, 2007, 09:08:43 AM
Precisely the reason why I said I wouldn't play it as a preferred version. If I want it youthful there is Francois, and there is Barere, and Gavrilov and Zimmerman and even Cortot to choose from.
I don't think Zimerman is youthful. Francois certainly. Barere too, though I rarely play it. As for "playing right through the music", well, there's always Gavrilov :)
Quote
Looks like when it comes to Chopin Gilels hardly appeals to me (his preludes ::))
I should mention that this is Gilels' only chopin recording which I really enjoy. His live second sonata is quite good too. Agree about the Preludes (and I waited years to hear them ::) ).
Quote
Of course I agree that the sickly Chopin method is nothing more than a caricaturisation of his music, and I generally detest that. I don't think that's what we have here, or perhaps yes.
I don't think so either. I mentioned sickliness only because I've heard it played in that contaminated way before.
You know, I'd much rather hear 1 on CD than live. I don't think I'd be able to fully appreciate it in a concert. So it's 2 for me again :)
I use Zimmerman being youthful in the context of "not being dramatic". I never thought he was [dramatic] ::)
Actually, I can hardly differentiate between Zimmerman's, Gavrilov's and Periah's takes on the piece :-[ I hear similar tones and shades for most part.
Here is another version from similar vein (to Gilels). I actually thought of this one when I first heard clip 2. (This one is actually even shorter).
It is Gulda btw.
http://download.yousendit.com/38D7A7BF062E4CA0
Quote from: orbital on July 10, 2007, 10:35:09 AM
I use Zimmerman being youthful in the context of "not being dramatic". I never thought he was [dramatic] ::)
Actually, I can hardly differentiate between Zimmerman's, Gavrilov's and Periah's takes on the piece :-[ I hear similar tones and shades for most part.
Here is another version from similar vein (to Gilels). I actually thought of this one when I first heard clip 2. (This one is actually even shorter).
It is Gulda btw.
http://download.yousendit.com/38D7A7BF062E4CA0
I have the Gulda Ballades already... they are pretty straight-forward in a way that didn't speak to me at first. But after about three or four listens they clicked, and I like them quite a bit now. They actually remind me somewhat of Richter's style with Chopin, only more "Germanic," for lack of a better word.
Gulda + Chopin = a strange brew... an acquired taste.
His is pretty good on its own merits, I agree. Definitely not a reading I refrain from. Strangely enough, it's his Bach (WTC) that I could not warm up to ::)
Quote from: orbital on July 10, 2007, 02:43:15 PM
His is pretty good on its own merits, I agree. Definitely not a reading I refrain from. Strangely enough, it's his Bach (WTC) that I could not warm up to ::)
Really? I was listening to some of Book 2 just a few hours ago -- I find his clear articulation irresistible! Though I do understand how some may not like his Bach. It is not, how should I put this... "warm."
Quote from: orbital on July 10, 2007, 10:35:09 AM
It is Gulda btw.
http://download.yousendit.com/38D7A7BF062E4CA0
Thanks. I had those in the Philips GPOC series. Not my sort of thing. As for his WTC, well, the less said the better ::)
I've uploaded 3 recordings of the first movement of Rachmaninoff's Sonata 2. Sound ranges from excellent to bootleg. Why is this piece not more popular? When it's on the end of a great performance I think it's as good as any sonata around.
http://rapidshare.com/files/42924538/track1.mp3
http://rapidshare.com/files/42923021/track2.mp3
http://rapidshare.com/files/42926511/track3.mp3
Quote from: orbital on July 10, 2007, 10:35:09 AM
It is Gulda btw.
http://download.yousendit.com/38D7A7BF062E4CA0
Thanks, haven't heard it before. There is one small passage in it that I quite liked (5'17-5'22)
Quote from: Drasko on July 14, 2007, 12:43:12 PM
Thanks, haven't heard it before. There is one small passage in it that I quite liked (5'17-5'22)
Really? It sounds as if he is actually skipping a few notes there ::)
Quote from: orbital on July 14, 2007, 08:40:13 PM
Really? It sounds as if he is actually skipping a few notes there ::)
Pedant :P Notes are expendable if I like the result >:D
come on you tossers, at least download the second track.
EDIT: I think you already know this one Alain. Ugh. Why is piano so unpopular on this board? Or is it just romantic piano? Or just me? ::)
Quote from: sidoze on July 15, 2007, 09:03:38 AM
Why is piano so unpopular on this board? Or is it just romantic piano? Or just me? ::)
As always it's probably the mix of all the above but mostly you I'd say >:D
I told you before that you'll have something like two takers for those Chopin op.35 finalas, now I'm not particularly interested in this piece, orbital possibly off somewhere for the weekend, you do the math ...
Quote from: sidoze on July 15, 2007, 09:03:38 AM
come on you tossers, at least download the second track.
I am doing that right now! I downloaded the first track but then rapidshare wants you to wait for 30 minutes before downloading the next ::)
Quote from: aquariuswb on July 10, 2007, 03:05:30 PM
Really? I was listening to some of Book 2 just a few hours ago -- I find his clear articulation irresistible! Though I do understand how some may not like his Bach. It is not, how should I put this... "warm."
I love Gulda's WTC, and warmth is not everything. Speaking of Gulda, I have one of those Australian Eloquence discs containing three Schumann big hits. Gulda plays the Fantasiestucke Op. 12, and it's a stunning performance. He gives Florestan the brutal treatment, and nobody does it better.
Quote from: sidoze on July 15, 2007, 09:03:38 AM
EDIT: I think you already know this one Alain. Ugh. Why is piano so unpopular on this board? Or is it just romantic piano? Or just me? ::)
I've found the piano very popular on this board. Why do you feel otherwise?
Quote from: Don on July 16, 2007, 08:35:55 AM
I love Gulda's WTC, and warmth is not everything. Speaking of Gulda, I have one of those Australian Eloquence discs containing three Schumann big hits. Gulda plays the Fantasiestucke Op. 12, and it's a stunning performance. He gives Florestan the brutal treatment, and nobody does it better.
That sounds tempting... got a link?
Quote from: aquariuswb on July 16, 2007, 10:19:24 AM
That sounds tempting... got a link?
ArkivMusic has the disc listed - the other pianists are Haebler performing Papillons and Magaloff doing the Sym. Etudes. (Eloquence # 470666). I assume Buywell would also have it.
Quote from: sidoze on July 14, 2007, 12:14:22 PM
Thanks. I had those in the Philips GPOC series. Not my sort of thing. As for his WTC, well, the less said the better ::)
I've uploaded 3 recordings of the first movement of Rachmaninoff's Sonata 2. Sound ranges from excellent to bootleg. Why is this piece not more popular? When it's on the end of a great performance I think it's as good as any sonata around.
http://rapidshare.com/files/42924538/track1.mp3
http://rapidshare.com/files/42923021/track2.mp3
http://rapidshare.com/files/42926511/track3.mp3
Now that I have been able to listen to all three, I must say my favorite of the bunch is the 2nd one. The magnificent enterance to the piece may be played with a little more detail, it is probably one of the most characteristic openings in the piani literature, this one kind of swallows it but the rest of the piece is wild with extreme dynamics at both ends. The whole thing is very effective I thought. If I could have a guess just as to style, I'd probably go with Richter, but this sounds like a bootleg.
The 3rd one sounded like Ashkenazy, both the style and the metallic piano sound, but I don't think that's him (at least the Decca recording I have). I have listened to his opening so many times and this is not it. Is that the Pogorelich? I have it at work so I could not compare.
edit:But Pogo did not record the piece on CD did he? The recording is very clear here.The first one is not very much to my taste, a little dry perhaps?
The first one is Pogorelich from 1991. It's nothing like the one I made in 2005.
The second is the legendary Joseph Villa recording. I believe I sent this to you before. It's the one which many pianophiles (in the Yahoo group) consider the most spectacular performance of anything they've ever heard.
The third is by Evgeny Zarafiants, the pianist who recorded the Ballade 1 which you liked. I think it's a much more interpreted sort of reading than the one Ashkenazy gives (which I haven't heard in ages mind you).
Well that was a great success. Thanks for playing :) Next time I'll just email you the links ;)
QuoteI've found the piano very popular on this board. Why do you feel otherwise?
At one point I think it was. When we had posters like Herman, Molman and several others, piano recordings were discussed more and in more depth. I think it's definitely an orchestrally-minded sort of board now.
Quote from: sidoze on July 19, 2007, 10:23:53 AM
The first one is Pogorelich from 1991. It's nothing like the one I made in 2005.
The second is the legendary Joseph Villa recording. I believe I sent this to you before. It's the one which many pianophiles (in the Yahoo group) consider the most spectacular performance of anything they've ever heard.
The third is by Evgeny Zarafiants, the pianist who recorded the Ballade 1 which you liked. I think it's a much more interpreted sort of reading than the one Ashkenazy gives (which I haven't heard in ages mind you).
Well that was a great success. Thanks for playing :) Next time I'll just email you the links ;)
;D it was a great exchange of ideas. Via e-mail or not, I am always interested in interpretations of piano pieces.
Zarafiants sounds very similar to Ashkenazy. Even the timings, I checked they are 2-3 seconds apart. And the piano sound is very similar too.
Number 2 is really very good. I had not heard it before. I think you sent me the 2005 Pogorelich at one point, but I can't locate it now :-\
Quote from: orbital on July 19, 2007, 11:04:11 AM
I think you sent me the 2005 Pogorelich at one point, but I can't locate it now :-\
I still haven't sent it to you (it's somewhere in this room... ::) ). I know Drasko sent you a copy of Nocturne 62/2 though.
I'll upload the rest of the Villa recording if you'd like. It's worth having in full as it's a barnstorming, truly Romantic performance.
Come to think of it, I think it was George who heard the Villa. He said it sounds like Rachmaninoff played like Liszt (not a bad point!). It's a completely unavailable recording -- at one point several years ago someone was selling CDR copies on Ebay and some of us snatched them up. In addition to this there's also his Schumann Sym Etudes, Beethoven-Liszt Sym 5, and a whole disc of Scriabin including a surprisingly tepid Sonata 5 but a lovely set of op. 3 Mazurkas.
Quote from: sidoze on July 19, 2007, 12:10:43 PM
I still haven't sent it to you (it's somewhere in this room... ::) ). I know Drasko sent you a copy of Nocturne 62/2 though.
I'll upload the rest of the Villa recording if you'd like. It's worth having in full as it's a barnstorming, truly Romantic performance.
Come to think of it, I think it was George who heard the Villa. He said it sounds like Rachmaninoff played like Liszt (not a bad point!). It's a completely unavailable recording -- at one point several years ago someone was selling CDR copies on Ebay and some of us snatched them up. In addition to this there's also his Schumann Sym Etudes, Beethoven-Liszt Sym 5, and a whole disc of Scriabin including a surprisingly tepid Sonata 5 but a lovely set of op. 3 Mazurkas.
I am definitely interested, if it is not too much trouble.
Not at all, I'll put up the other 2 movements later. In the meantime, here's another mystery Ballade 1 ::) Sorry for the repetition -- I was looking to clear out a few CDs and landed on this one.
http://rapidshare.com/files/43877492/Ballade1.mp3
movements 2 and 3 of Villa's Rach sonata 2
http://rapidshare.com/files/43881127/Joseph_Villa_-_Rach_2_-_1991.rar
Thanks a lot. Downloading them both now
Quote from: sidoze on July 19, 2007, 12:44:37 PM
Not at all, I'll put up the other 2 movements later. In the meantime, here's another mystery Ballade 1 ::) Sorry for the repetition -- I was looking to clear out a few CDs and landed on this one.
http://rapidshare.com/files/43877492/Ballade1.mp3
Heard it. It is different.. to say the least. Even the very opening. What is s/he playing there? a C0 before C1C2?
It is quite frantic almost throughout but still very individualistic especially with the left/right hand syncopations. The high point for me is probably the part below. This section is very problematic IMO, in the sense that almost all pianists lose the sense of rhythm there. I've heard very few that can pull it off. This one is one of those small lot.
Quote from: sidoze on July 19, 2007, 12:44:37 PM
Not at all, I'll put up the other 2 movements later. In the meantime, here's another mystery Ballade 1 ::) Sorry for the repetition -- I was looking to clear out a few CDs and landed on this one.
http://rapidshare.com/files/43877492/Ballade1.mp3
Is that Josef Hofmann?
Quote from: sidoze on July 19, 2007, 10:23:53 AM
When we had posters like Herman, Molman and several others, piano recordings were discussed more and in more depth. I think it's definitely an orchestrally-minded sort of board now.
Well, orchestral music always seems to be the most popular category, although I have no idea why.
Quote from: orbital on July 19, 2007, 07:06:15 PM
Heard it. It is different.. to say the least. Even the very opening. What is s/he playing there? a C0 before C1C2?
It is quite frantic almost throughout but still very individualistic especially with the left/right hand syncopations. The high point for me is probably the part below. This section is very problematic IMO, in the sense that almost all pianists lose the sense of rhythm there. I've heard very few that can pull it off. This one is one of those small lot.
:) It's been one of my favourite performances ever since first hearing it. I just usually forget to mention it, which unfortunately seems to happen in general terms to this pianist quite a lot :( And he's such a master stylist too....
About the very opening, I don't know. I can tell you that the first part of the Ballade was transferred from a sole surviving master tape, whereas the rest comes from shellac pressings (you can hear the sudden change in sound part way through). But that's not exactly helpful, I know.
QuoteIs that Josef Hofmann?
No, it's Benno Moiseiwitsch (rec. '38 and '39). It's from the APR disc which includes the 4 Ballades and op. 28 Preludes.
Quote from: sidoze on July 20, 2007, 12:47:04 PM
No, it's Benno Moiseiwitsch (rec. '38 and '39). It's from the APR disc which includes the 4 Ballades and op. 28 Preludes.
:P
Hofmann adds a higher initial C. ( :P again).
Quote from: Manuel on July 21, 2007, 11:17:28 AM
Hofmann adds a higher initial C. ( :P again).
what's your opinion of his rather infamous Casimir Hall recital?
Quote from: sidoze on July 21, 2007, 02:19:09 PM
what's your opinion of his rather infamous Casimir Hall recital?
Do you mean this cd?
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/29/296023.JPG)
I have assorted parts of it, like the C sharp minor sonata and the 4th concerto.
Quote from: Manuel on July 21, 2007, 04:04:29 PM
Do you mean this cd?
Yes that's the one, though the 4th Concerto comes from a different time and place.