GMG Classical Music Forum

Stravinsky- Le Sacre du Printemps
Varese- Ameriques, Arcana
Messiaen- Turangalila Symphony
Xenakis- Metastasis, Pithoprakta
Ruggles- Sun-Treader
Murail- Gondwana
Scelsi- haven't listened to the orchestral yet
Stockhausen- Inori, Ylem


I know I'm treading the compost heap here (meaning, we're all well family with this family of Pull-Out-All-the-Stops Music), but, what 20th Century Masterpieces am I missing off the top here? I guess the first four examples are what I'm going after (well, and Ruggles too),... the Mold Breakers,... or the Giant Granite Slabs,...

Krenek or Toch?

You'll notice that these pieces all are really very tightly constructed,... and bald in places,... so, I'm not looking for 'loudest',... some Villa-Lobos comes close (Erosion),... Pettersson not so much (for the purposes here),...

I guess I'm asking, because I really think that these ARE the pieces, and, we would know of others if there were others. Surely I'm making a glaring omission, but, other than a couple of brain farts, what other pieces are there (Schnittke 1?)?

Anyhow, translate at will! ;) ;D 8)

I just blew out a synapse trying to read that  :o What's the question?

Quote from: Grazioso on August 18, 2011, 10:47:25 AM
I just blew out a synapse trying to read that  :o What's the question?

Just more in the style of the pieces mentioned, especially the top few,... maybe we had that 'Ritual Music' Thread??,...uh,... you wanted me to what?,... oh! ;D,... The Question,... uh ???,...what was the question again?








:P ;D 8)

Would Miraculous Mandarin belong on that list? Definitely not the CFO.

I don't think I'm shooting for the Szymanowski/hallucinatory sound here,... which would really include some of the Villa-Lobos,...

I think, obviously, Chavez Symphony No.1 belongs.


I know someone out there knows exactly what I'm shooting for. Like I said, this may be most of the list.

Prokofiev Symphonies 2 and 3. Vaughan Williams 4.

Sarge

Something reminiscent of Sacre?

Sensemaya by Revueltas

- Scelsi, the Wyttenbach/accord recordings (Hurqualia, Uaxcuctum, Aion)

- Nørgård: Symphonys 5; Piano Cto, Percussion Concerto For A Change (Mortensen recording)
- Isang Yun: Symphonies
- Henry Brant: Litany of Tides
- Lucia Dlugoszewski: Fire Fragile Flight
- Vinko Globokar: Der Engel der Geschichte

Most of the Vermeulen symphonies qualify also, apparently partly due to some rather loud interpretations by the conductors (including Rozhdestvensky), but I would prefer a more lyrical approach.

... ...

Quote from: DieNacht on August 18, 2011, 11:41:11 AM
- Scelsi, the Wyttenbach/accord recordings (Hurqualia, Uaxcuctum, Aion)

- Nørgård: Symphonys 5; Piano Cto, Percussion Concerto For A Change (Mortensen recording)
- Isang Yun: Symphonies
- Henry Brant: Litany of Tides
- Lucia Dlugoszewski: Fire Fragile Flight
- Vinko Globokar: Der Engel der Geschichte

Most of the Vermeulen symphonies qualify also, apparently partly due to some rather loud interpretations by the conductors (including Rozhdestvensky), but I would prefer a more lyrical approach.

... ...

R U Incredibly reading my mind or what?? :o All I have here is the Yun, but, yes, you're right. I'll get them out.

I was just looking through the CRI Catalog and remembered Dlugo's name, though I haven't yet heard,... she has very interesting Titles. And thanks for cutting to the chase with Globokar and Brant,... I would go mad finding my Goldilocks with them: I look forward to checking those pieces out.

Norgard was also a duh moment! Of course!!

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 18, 2011, 11:01:26 AM
Prokofiev Symphonies 2 and 3. Vaughan Williams 4.

Sarge

And yes, that's what I'm looking for. See,... we know! ;)

Quote from: Grazioso on August 18, 2011, 11:03:19 AM
Something reminiscent of Sacre?

Sensemaya by Revueltas

And of course, that RCA set!



See, just within a few posts, many of the holes have been filled in. Great job guys!! 8)

I might also add that Ligeti Concertos/DG disc.



I was just listening to the Henze Symphonies 2-4, which reminded me that I've never plunged into Hartmann; I don't think I've gone through one of his. Also, I thought the raves over the molten lava flowing from BA Zimmermann's Sinfonie in Einem Satz were slightly over-Ruggled.

You know, I like what the skyscraper did to orchestral music. :-*

Quote from: Grazioso on August 18, 2011, 11:03:19 AM
Something reminiscent of Sacre?

Sensemaya by Revueltas

Actually, the opening of Noche de los Mayas (is that it?), is pretty CinemaScope.

I feel like this type of music should, properly, be labeled Horror Music, but not the kind that has been popularized/stereotyped (though of course certain elements are undeniable). Or Apocalypse Music,... I suppose Orff gets a nod here. I mean, the states of 'human' expression that are expressed in these tone poems are all the paler, to brutal, tones,... angst beyond angst, rapture beyond rapture.

Le Sacre seems like such a Jules Verne futuristic, yet primal, discovery. Didn't it 'just come to' Igor?

Anyhow, those elemental drum pounds (especially in the Muti!) really are Horrific,... Motoric in an abattoir like way.

Xenakis took those same elemental rhythms, and divorced them from 'human' expression, and linked them to external 'forces', concentrating and proliferating the violence.

Messiaen and Varese appear to be the most block-like of all, which seems to illuminate a feature of all these Musics: their seemingly artificial, yet inextricable, facade of granite marble, separated by either noodling or silence.

Perhaps Feldman's Violin & Orchestra qualifies.

Friedrich Cerha, Spiegel I-VII
James Dillon, Helle Nacht
James Dillon, Ignis noster
James Dillon, Überschreiten
Julio Estrada, eua-on-ome
Emmanuel Nunes, Quodlibet
...and, of course, Rihm's Klangbeschreibungen, Morphonie, Dis-/Sub-Kontur, etc!

QuoteI was just looking through the CRI Catalog and remembered Dlugo's name, though I haven't yet heard,... she has very interesting Titles. And thanks for cutting to the chase with Globokar and Brant,... I would go mad finding my Goldilocks with them: I look forward to checking those pieces out.

The Dlugoszewski is an absolutely wonderful piece, but crisp, often lyrical and only loud in a few moments ... What qualifies it IMO is the jungle-sounding anarchy of the many isolated voices - but in a good, mysterious way !

The Brant "Litany" is a violin concertante piece with long, rather melodic lines inserted, producing a sort of ebb-and-flow effect.

Quote
Friedrich Cerha, Spiegel I-VII
James Dillon, Helle Nacht
James Dillon, Ignis noster
James Dillon, Überschreiten
Julio Estrada, eua-on-ome
Emmanuel Nunes, Quodlibet
...and, of course, Rihm's Klangbeschreibungen, Morphonie, Dis-/Sub-Kontur, etc!

Will dig there, never heard any of this, except Rihm ...

Ives: Browning Overture. And also the reconstructed Emerson Concerto. Both Elemental striving juggernaughts. Neither are my favourite (I prefer the epic beauty of the fourth symphony, The sets etc.) but both make a big impact, anD you should definitely know them both. The reconstruction is very impressive I think as the Emerson movement of the concord sonata is one of the most striving, sprawling behemoths in music.

Also:

Prokofiev Scythian Suite - it's so much influenced by the Rite, and written just a few years later. Fun!

Bolesław Szabelski (3 December 1896 in Radoryż - 27 August 1979 Katowice) . While his style shifted and varied over the course of his life, he is best known for his atonal work composed during the 1950s and 1960s.


His 5th symphony was once available on the Olympia label. Scored for large orchestra, wordless choir and concertante organ.
definitely an aural jugernaut.

read:http://books.google.be/books?id=XT-ReqNMSx0C&pg=PA120&lpg=PA120&dq=szabelski+5th+symphony&source=bl&ots=CzdSoA2HiU&sig=HLUvjkLobiABgByXxfmT6XznXrk&hl=nl#v=onepage&q&f=false

The Question with 2 Answers by Dallapiccola I would consider a very very distanced version of what I'm shooting for. It has a very rocklike facade, though comparatively softer than,... kind of like Ruggles-as-written-by-Feldman?


btw- the Posts keep getting better and better! Lots of really cool stuff here. Thanks again!!

Copland Connotions, and Inscape

Quote from: Guido on August 19, 2011, 03:09:55 AMAlso:

Prokofiev Scythian Suite - it's so much influenced by the Rite, and written just a few years later. Fun!

Yes, most definitely...

http://www.youtube.com/v/sfQb6BKq_ZU

Here's another one: Ginastera's Estancia ballet...

http://www.youtube.com/v/LPqiRTEFWf8

Dudamel is in his element here.

Quote from: snyprrr on August 18, 2011, 09:37:38 PM
Actually, the opening of Noche de los Mayas (is that it?), is pretty CinemaScope.

I believe it's the second or final movement where this huge percussion line comes in and gives the work an Earthy stomp that's more Stravinsky-like than Sensemaya. I think Sensemaya, though aesthetically different than Ravel's Bolero, follows along the same kind of compositional structure whose main motif keeps building throughout the work. Stravinsky, however, is always changing and doesn't linger with the same kinds of rhythms too long and this couldn't be more evident than his Rite of Spring where spontaneity is more prominent.

Quote from: James on August 20, 2011, 07:14:41 AM
what is this thread asking?

I think Guido got it right: we're looking for "striving elemental juggernauts".

here are a few crazy, fingerbreaking, loud and quite exotic piano&orchestra works ...Possibly not Ruggles enough...


http://youtu.be/MnNcfhYTXTk (http://youtu.be/MnNcfhYTXTk)

Jolivet: pianoconcerto / 3rd mov. Allegro frenetico


Marlos Nobre : Divertimento for piano and orchestra
http://youtu.be/YF0UBxsX6bw (http://youtu.be/YF0UBxsX6bw)

http://youtu.be/vndswsbD3OQ (http://youtu.be/vndswsbD3OQ)

[Toccata concertata from Ginastera's pianoconcerto nr 1
Luis Ascot seems not to sweat...

And not to forget: from Messiaen's In expecto...: Et j'entendis la voix d'une foule immense

http://youtu.be/xDtXFdlaHAI (http://youtu.be/xDtXFdlaHAI)

or, why not, Mathias Hauer: Apokalyptische Fantasie"...from 1913

http://youtu.be/r_xcoyHeqr4 (http://youtu.be/r_xcoyHeqr4)

Does Sessions's Rhapsody count?

http://www.youtube.com/v/TRHPHNGMJKQ

Must check You tube, but I'm sure
Teruyuki Noda's pianoconcerto  and Akira Miyoshi's concerto for orchestra apply - both short (resp. ca 11 and 7 minutes!), extremely energetic & driving scores. I'll try to upload later.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/212VX9XDDAL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Alas, propably OOP


P.

Quote from: Coco on August 25, 2011, 06:02:29 PM
Does Sessions's Rhapsody count?

http://www.youtube.com/v/TRHPHNGMJKQ

I'm finding Sessions too clean for my purposes here. He always seems to be holding BACK energy, instead of opening the floodgates. Rhapsody starts off with a few cool bass hits, but the piece exhibits Sessions' trademark clarity,... he seems to be able to make the largest orchestra sound like a chamber orchestra.

Leifs's Hekla:

http://www.youtube.com/v/-AQ24wuylqI

Quote from: Mirror Image on August 29, 2011, 03:12:45 PM
Leifs's Hekla:

Madness!  :o


Xenakis' Ata is the logical development of The Rite many years later...
http://www.youtube.com/v/xB4RKzl2lmc


Here's the music displayed in image form:
(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSUJOfIXk3mJMvxmzimzF2OlyOXTJv88ftnPE-BE36b4OwRNOlK)

Quote from: Greg on August 29, 2011, 05:07:48 PM
Madness!  :o

I guess you're not familiar with Leifs's music. :) His music is quite primitive. He's been billed as the "loudest composer to grace classical music" by some people. I guess in some respects his music is loud, but he does have his moments of introspection, just don't expect them in works like Geysir, Hekla, or Dettifoss. :D

Quote from: toucan on August 20, 2011, 12:05:29 PM
Stravinsky, Sacre du Printemps -- Bartok, Miraculous Mandarin, Boulez, Notations I/IV + VII: the same sophisticated barbarity in all three cases
Varese -- Satie, Parade, Mosolov, Iron Foundry
Messiaen, Turangalila Symphony -- Maurice Delage, Quatre Poemes Hindous
Xenakis, Metastasis -- Penderecki, Fluorescences, Pollymorphia, Emanationen. Penderecki (in his good decade) had an ability to draw new sounds out of old instruments 
      that equalled and even surpassed Xenakis'
Scelsi - Ligeti, Atmospheres, Horacio Radulescu
Stockhausen, Inori - Dalbavie, Piano Concerto
Stockhausen, Ylem -- Berio, Chemins, Formazioni, Eindrucke; Lutoslawski, 2nd Symphony, HK Gruber, Aerial, Birtwistle Melancolia 1

Quote from: DieNacht on August 18, 2011, 11:41:11 AM
- Scelsi, the Wyttenbach/accord recordings (Hurqualia, Uaxcuctum, Aion)

- Nørgård: Symphonys 5; Piano Cto, Percussion Concerto For A Change (Mortensen recording)
- Isang Yun: Symphonies
- Henry Brant: Litany of Tides
- Lucia Dlugoszewski: Fire Fragile Flight
- Vinko Globokar: Der Engel der Geschichte

Most of the Vermeulen symphonies qualify also, apparently partly due to some rather loud interpretations by the conductors (including Rozhdestvensky), but I would prefer a more lyrical approach.

... ...

I have totally done this Thread proud in the last months. Norgard No.5 certainly fulfilled any expectation I might have had, and now I'm like on crack trying to find ever more mind blowing experiences. I still haven't made it through all the lists, but I did discover a Composer no one mentioned yet: Ivo Malec. The Timpani disc of his later Orchestral Works is EXCELLENT, as if he were successor to Varese. Highly Recommended!