In a book I have there is a chapter headed "Famous Failures"
followed by a sub-heading:
"Some who failed (apparently) when young
. . . but succeeded anyway"
I was flabbergasted by the Beethoven entry which began with these two remarks:
1. Handled the violin awkwardly.
2. His music teacher told him his composing was terrible.
Comments, please.
Don't read books like this.
Quote from: glindhot on October 30, 2012, 12:18:35 AM
In a book I have there is a chapter headed "Famous Failures"
followed by a sub-heading:
"Some who failed (apparently) when young
. . . but succeeded anyway"
I was flabbergasted by the Beethoven entry which began with these two remarks:
1. Handled the violin awkwardly.
2. His music teacher told him his composing was terrible.
Comments, please.
1. He didn't play the violin; he played the viola (well enough to be in the Elector's orchestra)
2. His teacher didn't teach him composition, he taught him keyboard.
So.... ???
8)
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 30, 2012, 04:20:38 AM
1. He didn't play the violin; he played the viola (well enough to be in the Elector's orchestra)
2. His teacher didn't teach him composition, he taught him keyboard.
So.... ???
8)
He was also a prodigy that gave his first public concert at age 7 and was court organist at 13.
Quote from: glindhot on October 30, 2012, 12:18:35 AM
2. His music teacher told him his composing was terrible.
A lot of people said Beethoven's composing was terrible even when he was writing his greatest works. Upon hearing the 7th symphony, Weber has been quoted as commenting that Beethoven was "ripe for the madhouse." :)
Quote from: Scarpia on October 30, 2012, 06:08:37 AM
A lot of people said Beethoven's composing was terrible even when he was writing his greatest works. Upon hearing the 7th symphony, Weber has been quoted as commenting that Beethoven was "ripe for the madhouse." :)
One of his very first published works, the first violin sonata I think, was panned as being all learning and no spirit.
I thought this thread would be about Wellington's Victory ;D
I think Furtwangler thought that the Missa Solemnis was a failiour -- or maybe I'm mistaken.
Quote from: Mandryka on October 30, 2012, 09:02:51 AM
I think Furtwangler thought that the Missa Solemnis was a failure -- or maybe I'm mistaken.
Or maybe Furtwängler was... :P
8)
Quote from: Mandryka on October 30, 2012, 09:02:51 AM
I think Furtwangler thought that the Missa Solemnis was a failiour -- or maybe I'm mistaken.
No, no. It's the other way around. Furtwängler
worshipped the Missa. So much so in fact he was reluctant to perform it because of its exalted nature.
There are certainly works of Beethoven that to me seem unsuccessful, but I generally discover that my impression is not generally shared. I find it hard to define "failure" for a work of art.
Quote from: Scarpia on October 30, 2012, 10:43:25 AM
There are certainly works of Beethoven that to me seem unsuccessful, but I generally discover that my impression is not generally shared. I find it hard to define "failure" for a work of art.
I feel in the same way as you with some of his works.
Which works do you think of?
Quote from: (: premont :) on October 30, 2012, 02:00:31 PM
I feel in the same way as you with some of his works.
Which works do you think of?
Piano Concerto #2, first movement of the Violin Concerto. Some of the piano Sonatas, recently the Pastorale, but often I find another interpretation fixes my problem.
Quote from: Scarpia on October 30, 2012, 02:09:11 PM
Piano Concerto #2, first movement of the Violin Concerto. Some of the piano Sonatas, recently the Pastorale, but often I find another interpretation fixes my problem.
Interesting, because I think these works are very successful, whereas I have problems with the Diabelli variations, Missa Solemnis and the Emperor concerto.
Quote from: (: premont :) on October 30, 2012, 02:24:45 PM
Interesting, because I think these works are very successful, whereas I have problems with the Diabelli variations, Missa Solemnis and the Emperor concerto.
Never having listened to the Missa Solemnis all the way through, I can't argue there. I rather like the Emperor. I would have said the 4th symphony was a failure, until I heard Immerseel's recording. The 4th piano concerto is still in the don't-get-it column. Likely there is a version out there that will convince me.
Wellington's Victory (Op. 91)....his only dud?
Quote from: Bogey on October 30, 2012, 02:37:38 PM
Wellington's Victory (Op. 91)....his only dud?
Perhaps not a subtle work, from what I know about it, but not a failure if it accomplished what it was meant to accomplish. (Never heard it, myself.)
Wellington's Victory is hilarious - what's not to like? But seriously - how does it fail? To do/be what? It was a huge success in its day.
There are works by Beethoven that fail to convince me of their necessity - but that says more about me than about Beethoven, surely. Greatness is beyond those two impostors, success and failure. Mind you, I've never listened to Der glorreiche Augenblick, for instance - might I say "It's not very glorious" and dismiss it as a failure?
Quote from: Bogey on October 30, 2012, 02:37:38 PM
Wellington's Victory (Op. 91)....his only dud?
It was his biggest public success in his lifetime. And he liked it well enough to either start or defend against (can't remember now which it was) a lawsuit over the rights to it. It isn't art, but that doesn't make it a failure. I know plenty of art (not by Beethoven) that I would happily flush in favor of
Wellington's Victory! :)
8)
Quote from: mjwal on October 30, 2012, 02:57:45 PM
Wellington's Victory is hilarious - what's not to like? But seriously - how does it fail? To do/be what? It was a huge success in its day.
There are works by Beethoven that fail to convince me of their necessity - but that says more about me than about Beethoven, surely. Greatness is beyond those two impostors, success and failure. Mind you, I've never listened to Der glorreiche Augenblick, for instance - might I say "It's not very glorious" and dismiss it as a failure?
Der glorreiche Augenblick was a tough listen for me, but now, 3 or 4 years along, perhaps subsequent listening will have given me a different perspective. The greatest music can't overcome a crappy libretto though... :-\
8)
Quote from: mjwal on October 30, 2012, 02:57:45 PM
Wellington's Victory is hilarious - what's not to like? But seriously - how does it fail? To do/be what? It was a huge success in its day.
Seems like I need to hear this piece. I find I have it on a disc with Dorati's recording of the Tchaikovsky 1812 overture, on Mercury. Something to the effect that percussion has been replaced by authentic muskets and cannons. Seems like the version to hear. :)
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 30, 2012, 03:08:19 PM
Der glorreiche Augenblick was a tough listen for me, but now, 3 or 4 years along, perhaps subsequent listening will have given me a different perspective. The greatest music can't overcome a crappy libretto though... :-\
An allusion to Wagner? :)
I was only commenting about what I feel about it....no facts, just opinion. 8)
Quote from: Bogey on October 30, 2012, 02:37:38 PM
Wellington's Victory (Op. 91)....his only dud?
That's the only one for me. I wouldn't call it a 'failure' or 'dud', but like you, this piece just doesn't do it for me. I have a hard time imagining that Beethoven actually composed this......hoping Luchesi can take credit for it somehow. ;D :D
Scarpia mentions the Violin Concerto's 1st movement. My goodness!!
For me, one of my favourite movements of all Beethoven's music. And it's my favourite concerto of Beethoven's, and one of my favourite violin concertos of any composer.
Quote from: ChamberNut on October 30, 2012, 03:40:52 PM
That's the only one for me. I wouldn't call it a 'failure' or 'dud', but like you, this piece just doesn't do it for me. I have a hard time imagining that Beethoven actually composed this......hoping Luchesi can take credit for it somehow. ;D :D
Scarpia mentions the Violin Concerto's 1st movement. My goodness!! For me, one of my favourite movements of all Beethoven's music. And it's my favourite concerto of Beethoven's, and one of my favourite violin concertos of any composer.
* from across the room, throws sheet music to LvB's second movement from Piano Concerto No. 5 at Ray's head* ;D
Quote from: Bogey on October 30, 2012, 03:43:59 PM
* from across the room, throws sheet music to LvB's second movement from Piano Concerto No. 5 at Ray's head* ;D
:D
For those with problems with Beethoven's Piano Concerto No. 4 and No.5 - just swap the middle movements with the other. Problem solved. 8)
Yes, perhaps Piano Concerto No. 2 (really his 1st) is not a 'masterpiece', but a lovely early piece of his, nevertheless. One of my early 'first loves' of classical music. Still think that Adagio is one gorgeous ditty! :)
ive never been able to 'get' the archduke trio.
stranger considering the op.70 trios are among my favorite
Quote from: Scarpia on October 30, 2012, 03:08:33 PM
Seems like I need to hear this piece. I find I have it on a disc with Dorati's recording of the Tchaikovsky 1812 overture, on Mercury. Something to the effect that percussion has been replaced by authentic muskets and cannons. Seems like the version to hear. :)
That's the version I have on LP - I've never needed another ;)
Quote from: mjwal on October 31, 2012, 05:38:17 AM
That's the version I have on LP - I've never needed another ;)
I've got a couple of versions, but that's the best. Has a very nice 1812 Overture on it, too. :)
8)
[asin]B0000057MW[/asin]
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on October 30, 2012, 10:39:52 AM
No, no. It's the other way around. Furtwängler worshipped the Missa. So much so in fact he was reluctant to perform it because of its exalted nature.
I wouldn't be surprised if you're right. But according to his wife, WF said he just couldn't make it work, and according to Furtwangler himself, it's almost impossible for a choir to sing. He probably thought it was a success
platonically, as an abstract object, or something.
I think he conducted it a couple of times when he was young. Then he just gave up on it.
I think Fidelio isn't an total operatic success, although there are some very fine things in it, I've never seen it work as a piece of theatre. And there are some other things which I've never found musically very interesting, some of the songs in An Die Ferne Geliebte, for example
I don't know if I'd go as far as to say they're failiours though.
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 31, 2012, 05:58:00 AM
I've got a couple of versions, but that's the best. Has a very nice 1812 Overture on it, too. :)
8)
[asin]B0000057MW[/asin]
My opinion is confirmed with this cover, Gurn. As you see, LvB is treated like a newsreel to Tchaikovsky's feature presentation. ;D
(http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m651we9ets1qe7vo3o1_500.jpg)
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 31, 2012, 05:58:00 AM
I've got a couple of versions, but that's the best. Has a very nice 1812 Overture on it, too. :)
8)
[asin]B0000057MW[/asin]
Yes, that's the one I referred to. My Dad had about 4 classical LPs, and that was one of them (the original issue contained the 1812 overture and Cappricio Italiano, as I recall).
Quote from: Mandryka on October 31, 2012, 06:00:24 AM
I think Fidelio isn't an total operatic success, although there are some very fine things in it, I've never seen it work as a piece of theatre.
I am afraid that I am going to have to agree with you here. :-[ (sigh!) It is interesting that Beethoven wanted to compose more operas but found that the piano sonatas were earning him much needed money so he kept producing them, although that was never his intention....but what he truly wanted was to compose more operas, following in Mozart's footsteps. It's ironic because it took him a very long time to compose, revise etc. Fidelio and the net result is well.......... nowhere near the genius that Mozart produced, IMHO.
Beyond Fidelio the man was a genius in every respect. I love the Emporer concerto, all the piano sonatas, the string quartets and I doubt there will ever be a symphonic composer to trump him!
marvin
Quote from: Mandryka on October 31, 2012, 06:00:24 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if you're right. But according to his wife, WF said he just couldn't make it work, and according to Furtwangler himself, it's almost impossible for a choir to sing. He probably thought it was a success platonically, as an abstract object, or something.
I think he conducted it a couple of times when he was young. Then he just gave up on it.
I think Fidelio isn't an total operatic success, although there are some very fine things in it, I've never seen it work as a piece of theatre. And there are some other things which I've never found musically very interesting, some of the songs in An Die Ferne Geliebte, for example
I don't know if I'd go as far as to say they're failures though.
Can you say which ones? I have always loved this Beethoven song-cycle, especially in Schlusnus's recording, and somehow couldn't wish it otherwise. It has a sort of totemic significance, even, forming with Schumann's
Fantasie and the last movement of the 2nd symphony what may be the most compelling intertextual complex in musical history.
As to
Fidelio, I agree, mainly because of the young couple.They are what German call bieder, as in Biedermeier. It never worked as theatre for me either, and the dialogue is often rather clunky - so I avoid productions now, when I go to the opera at all.
Quote from: xochitl on October 30, 2012, 11:50:47 PM
ive never been able to 'get' [....]
This tack has always seemed to me more sensible than to speak of any 'failure' on the part of LvB.
My 2¢ . . . .
I didn't like Wellington's Victory until I heard it when Kimi was watching Baby Einstein. It's perfect with those puppets and toy soldiers!
I think any composer should be open to criticism, they are all human beings and so not without fault in some way.
When Beethoven aimed for giganticism I think he could was certainly making more difficult works both for listener and performer. And because of that you can probably question how successful some of those pieces can be. If it's hard to find a satisfying performance of something that has to reflect a bit on the composition if the piece isn't that obscure.
It's fascinating reading the responses to this excellent thread. Much vaunted works like the late PCs and the Pastorale Symphony are seen by some as failures while others think they are masterpieces. It shows how much Beethoven can polarise opinion with his works. He did it in his own day and he's still doing it.
Quote from: Holden on May 11, 2013, 02:31:26 PM
Much vaunted works like the late PCs and the Pastorale Symphony are seen by some as failures....
???
And then there are those who don't get Beethoven at all. :o :o :o
Quote from: springrite on November 01, 2012, 06:44:33 AM
I didn't like Wellington's Victory until I heard it when Kimi was watching Baby Einstein. It's perfect with those puppets and toy soldiers!
Baby Einstein introduced my sister to
Grieg (now that's a tangent...)
Quote from: DavidRoss on May 11, 2013, 04:20:33 PM
???
And then there are those who don't get Beethoven at all. :o :o :o
Indeed. A viewpoint which somehow considers the
Op. 68 a "failure," I find utterly incomprehensible.
Quote from: sanantonio on May 11, 2013, 06:20:46 PM
GMG Thread Failures???
:)
Yes. And this has the makings of another
'worst composer' thread.
I don't think this looks like a 'worst composer' thread at all. Nobody is questioning that Beethoven is a great composer. But that doesn't mean you have to worship him like a god.
As the Pastoral was brought up....I'm not sure it is that questioned as being particularly weak in it's composition. In fact I'd say it feels like one of the most perfectly constructed of his symphonies. Of course the bane of any composer are bad performances and when heard in an insipid interpretation which is slow and without energy it could probably feel weak. I also wonder how much our opinion of this piece would be altered if it didn't have all the descriptions attached to it, which I thought Beethoven eventually regretted doing. What if it was just the Symphony in F op68. Would it have been less or more acclaimed? Some may have a tendency to see it as a descriptive piece and not much more. Really it's the companion piece to the 5th which people look at in a generally less programmatic way.