Beethoven's failures ???

[Bogey]

I was only commenting about what I feel about it....no facts, just opinion.   

[Brahmsian]

Wellington's Victory (Op. 91)....his only dud?

That's the only one for me.  I wouldn't call it a 'failure' or 'dud', but like you, this piece just doesn't do it for me.  I have a hard time imagining that Beethoven actually composed this......hoping Luchesi can take credit for it somehow. 

Scarpia mentions the Violin Concerto's 1st movement.  My goodness!!  For me, one of my favourite movements of all Beethoven's music.  And it's my favourite concerto of Beethoven's, and one of my favourite violin concertos of any composer.

[Bogey]

That's the only one for me.  I wouldn't call it a 'failure' or 'dud', but like you, this piece just doesn't do it for me.  I have a hard time imagining that Beethoven actually composed this......hoping Luchesi can take credit for it somehow. 

Scarpia mentions the Violin Concerto's 1st movement.  My goodness!!  For me, one of my favourite movements of all Beethoven's music.  And it's my favourite concerto of Beethoven's, and one of my favourite violin concertos of any composer.

* from across the room, throws sheet music to LvB's second movement from Piano Concerto No. 5 at Ray's head*

[Brahmsian]

* from across the room, throws sheet music to LvB's second movement from Piano Concerto No. 5 at Ray's head*

For those with problems with Beethoven's Piano Concerto No. 4 and No.5 - just swap the middle movements with the other.  Problem solved. 

Yes, perhaps Piano Concerto No. 2 (really his 1st) is not a 'masterpiece', but a lovely early piece of his, nevertheless.  One of my early 'first loves' of classical music.   Still think that Adagio is one gorgeous ditty! 

[xochitl]

ive never been able to 'get' the archduke trio. 

stranger considering the op.70 trios are among my favorite

[mjwal]

Seems like I need to hear this piece.  I find I have it on a disc with Dorati's recording of the Tchaikovsky 1812 overture, on Mercury.  Something to the effect that percussion has been replaced by authentic muskets and cannons.  Seems like the version to hear. 

That's the version I have on LP - I've never needed another 

[Gurn Blanston]

That's the version I have on LP - I've never needed another 

I've got a couple of versions, but that's the best. Has a very nice 1812 Overture on it, too.



[asin]B0000057MW[/asin]

[Mandryka]

No, no. It's the other way around. Furtwängler worshipped the Missa. So much so in fact he was reluctant to perform it because of its exalted nature.

I wouldn't be surprised if you're right. But according to his wife, WF said he just couldn't make it work, and according to Furtwangler himself, it's almost impossible for a choir to sing. He probably thought it was a success platonically, as an abstract object, or something.

I think he conducted it a couple of times when he was young. Then he just gave up on it.

I think Fidelio isn't an total operatic success, although there are some very fine things in it, I've never seen it work as a piece of theatre. And there are some other things which I've never found musically very interesting, some of the songs in An Die  Ferne Geliebte, for example

I don't know if I'd go as far as to say they're failiours though.

[Bogey]

I've got a couple of versions, but that's the best. Has a very nice 1812 Overture on it, too.



[asin]B0000057MW[/asin]

My opinion is confirmed with this cover, Gurn.  As you see, LvB is treated like a newsreel to Tchaikovsky's feature presentation.

[Scarpia]

I've got a couple of versions, but that's the best. Has a very nice 1812 Overture on it, too.



[asin]B0000057MW[/asin]

Yes, that's the one I referred to.  My Dad had about 4 classical LPs, and that was one of them (the original issue contained the 1812 overture and Cappricio Italiano, as I recall).

[marvinbrown]

I think Fidelio isn't an total operatic success, although there are some very fine things in it, I've never seen it work as a piece of theatre.

  I am afraid that I am going to have to agree with you here.  (sigh!) It is interesting that Beethoven wanted to compose more operas but found that the piano sonatas were earning him much needed money so he kept producing them, although that was never his intention....but what he truly wanted was to compose more operas, following in Mozart's footsteps. It's ironic because it took him a very long time to compose, revise etc. Fidelio and the net result is well.......... nowhere near the genius that Mozart produced, IMHO. 

  Beyond Fidelio the man was a genius in every respect.  I love the Emporer concerto, all the piano sonatas, the string quartets and I doubt there will ever be a symphonic composer to trump him! 

  marvin

[mjwal]

I wouldn't be surprised if you're right. But according to his wife, WF said he just couldn't make it work, and according to Furtwangler himself, it's almost impossible for a choir to sing. He probably thought it was a success platonically, as an abstract object, or something.

I think he conducted it a couple of times when he was young. Then he just gave up on it.

I think Fidelio isn't an total operatic success, although there are some very fine things in it, I've never seen it work as a piece of theatre. And there are some other things which I've never found musically very interesting, some of the songs in An Die  Ferne Geliebte, for example

I don't know if I'd go as far as to say they're failures though.

Can you say which ones? I have always loved this Beethoven song-cycle, especially in Schlusnus's recording, and somehow couldn't wish it otherwise. It has a sort of totemic significance, even, forming with Schumann's Fantasie and the last movement of the 2nd symphony what may be the most compelling intertextual complex in musical history.
As to Fidelio, I agree, mainly because of the young couple.They are what German call bieder, as in Biedermeier. It never worked as theatre for me either, and the dialogue is often rather clunky - so I avoid productions now, when I go to the opera at all.

[Karl Henning]

ive never been able to 'get' [....]

This tack has always seemed to me more sensible than to speak of any 'failure' on the part of LvB.

My 2¢ . . . .

[springrite]

I didn't like Wellington's Victory until I heard it when Kimi was watching Baby Einstein. It's perfect with those puppets and toy soldiers!

[starrynight]

I think any composer should be open to criticism, they are all human beings and so not without fault in some way.

When Beethoven aimed for giganticism I think he could was certainly making more difficult works both for listener and performer.   And because of that you can probably question how successful some of those pieces can be.  If it's hard to find a satisfying performance of something that has to reflect a bit on the composition if the piece isn't that obscure. 

[Holden]

It's fascinating reading the responses to this excellent thread. Much vaunted works like the late PCs and the Pastorale Symphony are seen by some as failures while others think they are masterpieces. It shows how much Beethoven can polarise opinion with his works. He did it in his own day and he's still doing it.

[DavidRoss]

Much vaunted works like the late PCs and the Pastorale Symphony are seen by some as failures....

And then there are those who don't get Beethoven at all. 

[Karl Henning]

I didn't like Wellington's Victory until I heard it when Kimi was watching Baby Einstein. It's perfect with those puppets and toy soldiers!

Baby Einstein introduced my sister to Grieg (now that's a tangent...)

[Karl Henning]

 

And then there are those who don't get Beethoven at all. 

Indeed. A viewpoint which somehow considers the Op. 68 a "failure," I find utterly incomprehensible.

[TheGSMoeller]

GMG Thread Failures???

Yes. And this has the makings of another 'worst composer' thread.