I hear Aho's is pretty dark.
I suppose, of what I have...mm... Schnittke's No.2? I mean, there MUST be darker than Shostakovich No.2, right? Wow, I really don't have much here in the way of off-the-beaten-path. Surely someone here knows.
I have a lot of the CCs up until about the '60s, but none are really BLACK!! Penderecki No.2...mm...eh... maybe more psychedelic than dark? Surely his Violin Concerto No.1 is his blackest work?
I know that this would haaave to be a work after the '60s. Things were pretty dark in the '70s, haha!!
Anyhow, I hope this gets the juices flowing! ;)
Tchaikovsky's Variations on a Rococo Theme.
(Okay, just kidding.)
I'm not turning up a Pettersson cello concerto.
Britten's Cello Symphony is definitely a contender here I think. :) It's certainly a darkly-hued, troubled work.
Quote from: snyprrr on January 31, 2013, 09:09:35 AM
I suppose, of what I have...mm... Schnittke's No.2? I mean, there MUST be darker than Shostakovich No.2, right?
I prefer Schnittke's Cello Concerto No.1 to No.2--I'm not sure absolute black levels, but No.1 is mighty grim and violent in places. Natalia Gutman owns this piece. It's on the Russian Revolution label.
Quote from: snyprrr on January 31, 2013, 09:09:35 AM
I know that this would haaave to be a work after the '60s. Things were pretty dark in the '70s, haha!!
Yes they were, and it wasn't funny, buster! ;D
How about the
Elgar Cello Concerto?
Or the Finzi Cello Concerto? :)
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 31, 2013, 12:00:50 PM
Or the Finzi Cello Concerto? :)
I thought of that, too, but the third movement ruins it 8) :P ;D
Quote from: North Star on January 31, 2013, 12:02:20 PM
I thought of that, too, but the third movement ruins it 8) :P ;D
Yeah, I know, but let's include it anyway. :D
Not a concerto, but the Bruch Kol Nidre could fit.
And Snyprr: Are you trying to find a way down from that Red Bull high?
Quote from: Toccata&Fugue on January 31, 2013, 11:43:47 AM
I prefer Schnittke's Cello Concerto No.1 to No.2--I'm not sure absolute black levels, but No.1 is mighty grim and violent in places. Natalia Gutman owns this piece. It's on the Russian Revolution label.
Schnittke for me as well. I love no 2; but it's grim as hell. The Chandos recording is magnificent. The Gramophone reviewer wrote:
"Its intrinsic drama is there in microcosm in the first 30 seconds, as the orchestra tries to strangle the cello's passionate monologue at birth. What follows is 42 minutes of essentially the same process, enacted in five alternately slow and fast movements and culminating in the mother of all passacaglias. It's like experiencing a moment of emotional catastrophe, when the only thing to hang on to is the knowledge that the trauma cannot last, except that here it does last; and you''re forced to stare it full in the face"."
I'm looking for a really loud painting, one with no volume control.
plenty of black composers wrote cello concertos. David Baker, Coleridge-Taylor Perkinson, ...
that is what you meant, right?
Darkest (or most ominous) cello concertos, from the one's I've heard - it would have to be one of the ones by Kabelevsky.
Quote from: ChamberNut on January 31, 2013, 05:05:13 PM
Darkest (or most ominous) cello concertos, from the one's I've heard - it would have to be one of the ones by Kabelevsky.
Really? Is this a joke?
Quote from: ChamberNut on January 31, 2013, 05:16:59 PM
Uh, no. ???
I need to go back to listen to those works then, because darkness is not something I usually associate with Kabalevsky.
The whole "dark" thing is a joke from the get go.
But never mind. What I REALLY want (dyn ;D) is a calculus formula that's filling but low in calories.
Probably William Grant Still's.
Quote from: The Six on February 01, 2013, 07:52:35 AM
Probably William Grant Still's.
:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51rZzCXgWEL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
75 % black... ;D
Quote from: some guy on January 31, 2013, 01:54:24 PM
I'm looking for a really loud painting, one with no volume control.
Would you believe, a collage that goes up to 11?
Quote from: Cato on January 31, 2013, 11:51:31 AM
Yes they were, and it wasn't funny, buster! ;D
How about the Elgar Cello Concerto?
Well, I'll put it this way. The Elgar and the Mysakovsky both have the one thing that the 'Blackest' would need to have: at least 10 seconds of the big, sweeping melody that signals 'irretrievable loss'. However, both of those CCs didn't have access to the same language as, say, Schnittke.
someguy thinks he's being funny, but he know perfectly well what I mean in musical terms. The Cello is a darkly toned instrument, with a HISTORY of expressing a profound seeking and searching (as the human heart hears things), so, it would be totally reasonable to find the most anguished and bleak music to be found in a CC.
The point of departure for this Thread is the Schnittke, which is an overt expression of the aims of this Thread. I want something MORE :o!!
Had Elgar written a Schnittke Concerto, maybe!
Quote from: snyprrr on February 01, 2013, 11:17:43 AM
The Cello is a darkly toned instrument, with a HISTORY of expressing a profound seeking and searching (as the human heart hears things), so, it would be totally reasonable to find the most anguished and bleak music to be found in a CC.
If you put it this way then forget about
Cello and look for
viola da gamba instead...
Jordi Savall is your man.
Quote from: Daverz on January 31, 2013, 10:10:01 AM
I'm not turning up a Pettersson cello concerto.
That's kind of it, isn't it?
Rouse? eh,...mm,...sorta, not quite...
Just checking the
Aho. It's loud, but is it BLACK?
Nordgren? Does he have one? There's a candidate. What other Nordic CCs do we have?
Quote from: karlhenning on January 31, 2013, 09:21:48 AM
Tchaikovsky's Variations on a Rococo Theme.
(Okay, just kidding.)
Ibert! ::)
But seriously Karl (cue Cary Grant accent)
The cello concertos of Schnittke, Braga Santos (v. different from Symphonies 1-4), and Leighton could all qualify as "dark" and "black".
I'd like to hear something in a chartreuse.
How about Bernd Aloys Zimmermann's 2nd cello concerto (in the form of a pas de trois)? Anyone know it? My favourite piece of his.
Quote from: Dax on October 27, 2013, 04:05:13 PM
How about Bernd Aloys Zimmermann's 2nd cello concerto (in the form of a pas de trois)? Anyone know it? My favourite piece of his.
I don't believe I know that one. Thanks for the tip!
Quote from: Dax on October 27, 2013, 04:05:13 PM
How about Bernd Aloys Zimmermann's 2nd cello concerto (in the form of a pas de trois)? Anyone know it? My favourite piece of his.
Yes, that work is a dip into pure madness. :)
In addition to the Schnittke CCs, I would nominate Shostakovich's Cello Concerto No. 2 and Britten's Cello Symphony.
Since long my favorite(s):
André Jolivet nr 2 - written for Rostropovitch.
It is scored for cello, stringquintet and stringorchestra.
http://youtube.com/v/5YjojYKtUc0
(first mov.)
The first celloconcerto isn't a light, happy affair either.
http://youtube.com/v/GvECJXEs5M8
(first movement)
From Musicweb/ Hubert Culot:
"..... in the First Cello Concerto, Jolivet, now in his full maturity and in full command of his skills, really achieves his Jeune France ideals, in invigorating musical terms full of contrasts, arresting sonorities and rhythmic alertness. In the first and second movements of the First Cello Concerto, the music conjures mysterious, ominous, primeval visions, no less so in the extraordinary second movement; really a jungle in sounds that also includes a remarkable cadenza. The third movement, a brilliant moto perpetuo, has the dancing quality often associated with Jolivet's final movements, and rushes headlong towards its mightily assertive conclusion. Suite en concert for solo cello was completed some time later".
and
"....This led to the completion of the Second Cello Concerto written for and first performed by Rostropovich. Though unmistakably by the same composer, the Second Cello Concerto is poles apart from its predecessor. First, it is scored for strings (including a solo quintet surrounding the soloist). Second, it is on the whole more lyrical. The music, as demanding as ever, fully displays Jolivet's orchestral mastery; for, while renouncing the hugely varied sound palette of the First Cello Concerto, Jolivet conjures some remarkably imaginative and powerfully expressive string writing. As far as I am concerned, Jolivet's cello concertos undoubtedly belong to his greatest achievements, though they are still unjustly and shamefully neglected by cellists, which is hard to understand, when one thinks of the comparative popularity of Dutilleux's and Lutosławski's equally demanding and rewarding concertos".
P.
I would recommend Aaron Jay Kernis's Cello Concerto "colored field". It is well conceived and quite dark and intense but lyrical too. Note it also exists in an English Horn variant with the same name. I quite like his music.
Quote from: relm1 on October 28, 2013, 01:09:15 AM
I would recommend Aaron Jay Kernis's Cello Concerto "colored wheel".
I think you mean
Colored Field.
Color Wheel is a concerto for orchestra.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 28, 2013, 03:14:11 AM
I think you mean Colored Field. Color Wheel is a concerto for orchestra.
Sarge
Right. Fixed... Thanks
If a painter reduces his palette to a single color, then fine.
(http://cdnl.complex.com/mp/620/400/80/0/bb/1/ffffff/650f93a7a8b1e5ec81f2133ac575561d/images_/assets/galleries/2011/9405/black-paintings-01.jpg)
If a composer reduces his sound world to a single chord, then fine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBmBAtGva4Y
But doesn't it seem kinda presumptuous (and a little repugnant) for a listener to reduce the complexities of someone else's piece to a single thing, whether a color or an emotion or whatever?
Is life so utterly and appallingly complex that to deal with it we have to reduce it always to one or two simple things?
Again, just to make the distinction plain: for a maker to reduce his or her own choices in order to create is one thing. For a listener/observer to describe everything, whether simple or not, in the most simple and reductionist of terms is quite another.
Or at least that's what it says in this post.
Of topic, but for really magnificent, dark, yet wondrous cellosonatas: go for Mathijs Vermeulen 1&2!
Great recording on MDG . Doris Hochscheid, cello and Frans van Ruth, piano.
Both works are in two movements . The first sonata is written in 1918 under "the immediate impetus of Debussy's death", the approaching end of WWI and the love for his wife.
the second sonata he started working on in 1927, but completed it only after a hiatus of 10 years! Paul Tortelier played the (hastily prepared...) premiere with pianist Lia pala in 1943.
I quote from the booklet: " the melodies of Vermeulen are pure expression of joy, optimism, yearning and expectation. ....
The melodies are no longer tonal....they are creative motion. Simultaneity of different, individual actions, plurality of individual voices: this is Vermeulen's idea of a polymelodic system.
Difficult music, of course, but it grabs me each time I listen...
Another great celloconcerto is the one by Herman D.Koppel (from 1952).
(http://s.s-bol.com/imgbase0/imagebase/large/FC/7/8/5/6/1000004003026587.jpg)
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0003/156/MI0003156428.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
Karel Husa's Concerto is pretty dark, and the opening is horror-music black!
Well, OK, then. Reductionism it is. :laugh:
The real question is, what is the most lime green cello concerto?
I think it's Lalo's.
(http://th823.photobucket.com/albums/zz152/BernardoCruz/Bernardo%20Cruz/th_cello34.jpg)
I think it is Milhaud.
P.
I've been listening to music all my life, and I cannot tell the difference between a lime green cello concerto and a chartreuse one.
Am I tone blind or just color deaf???
The People Wish It!
Quote from: karlhenning on October 29, 2013, 03:57:18 AM
The People Wish It!
Rouse
Kokkonen
Aho
Schnittke (though not totally 'black' in my estimation, which, I'm sure, all will disagree with (being that Schnittke DID express himself in music that sounded 'dark' and 'heavy' and, frankly, 'black'))
Ligeti (more just 'dark' rather than emotionally 'black')
Surely many minor Modern Composers since the mid-'70s have written CCs that fit the bill here, rather than, per.... honestly, I can't even THINK of too many... Pintscher? Dusapin? (I wouldn't call his all that 'dark&black'- it's just a cool piece)
ok- here's two that should really fit the bill:
Denisov (very creepy indeed)
Yun (a harrowing musical account of his time in prison)
I don't understand why certain members take umbrage at the idea that music could be 'dark&black'. Isn't that what Expressionism was all about? and didn't early-Hindemith and even early-Myaskovsky seek 'music from the grave' (the criticism of Wagner's music that he was leading it into the realm of the grave with his endless tonality)? Isn't early-Schoenberg full of purposeful grotesqueries and extreme emotional states (as with early-Bartok).
Anyhow, the point of this Thread that I'm enjoying to make is that I don't feel any of these Composers ever truly took the dark-toned cello into the depths of hell (they were all more of 'Total Orchestra' types, no?- anyhow, none of them wrote the DarkestCCEverWritten- I think we can agree- Elgar? sad, not black). Does Rouse come closest? I hope not (unless he reads this and begins No.2 (or 3??)).
I seem to think that one of them thar Nordic Composers would have written the darkest&blackest- hey, I would have given it to Schnittke on temperament alone, but sometimes I find him more BITTER than actually... uh... dark&black... (I know, I know, I'm being a dik here- hey, I would have loved to hear a Stockhausen CC- or a Late Xenakis CC along the lines of his very very 'dark' bass clarinet concerto 'Echange').
I would think that a Composer wanting to make a 'De Profundis' type statement in a concerto-form would naturally use the cello...
two more:
Penderecki (fits the bill)
Halffter (fits the bill)
The Penderecki Violin Concerto No.1, that really dreary and scary one- had it been written for cello, I think that would have been the winner for me, maybe?
Quote from: snyprrr on October 29, 2013, 09:39:21 AM
Yun (a harrowing musical account of his time in prison)
Yes! I need to revisit this work, but it certainly contains a grim narrative. No question about it.
(Looks for Camerata recording)
Quote from: some guy on October 29, 2013, 03:53:37 AM
I've been listening to music all my life, and I cannot tell the difference between a lime green cello concerto and a chartreuse one.
Am I tone blind or just color deaf???
If associating colours and sounds is a form of synaesthesia, can what you have accurately be referred to as syn
anaesthesia?
I sure hope not.
Well, not until I'm sure I can pronounce it.
Now, about that there Yun piece, which was presented to us as "a harrowing musical account of his time in prison."
So. Try it out sometime. Play this piece for someone who has never heard it. Have them, if they will, say what they think it is an account of. (I say "if they will," because I would certainly decline. :))
Do this as many times as you like.
You will, I am certain, never get anyone to say that it's a harrowing account of his time in prison.
Now give someone E.E. Cummings The Enormous Room to read.
Do this as many times as you like.
You will, I am certain, get 100% return that it's an account of his time in prison.
That, for your delectation, is the difference between language and music.
You're welcome.
James,
I thought (fondly :)) that once you had very adroitly invalidated everything you had ever said that you would be posting less frequently, or at least less invalidly.
We all have our little dreams.
Quote from: James on October 30, 2013, 03:18:57 AM
Music is an expressive language, and there are varying degrees of connotation.
Yes, yes it is, and yes there are.
Quote from: James on October 30, 2013, 03:18:57 AMMost of it involves text, words ..
Dunno about "most" but anytime you have text, you have meaning of a sort that is just not what music has even ever tried to do. Think about it, even if for just a second. If music could do the things that language can do, then what would be the purpose of "most of" music involving text?
Music does a lot things and does them very well. It is a mark of our disbelief in the validity (!) of those things that we keep trying to make out that music does things that it in fact it cannot do, and we add insult to injury by claiming that it does those things very well.
Quote from: James on October 30, 2013, 03:18:57 AMthe notes themselves have thought, meaning and purpose within the whole framework; its not just some random, mindless shit.
No one has claimed otherwise, though you're tempting me, I assure you. To claim, as I did, that the Yun concerto does not, indeed cannot, be an account of Yun's experience inside a prison is not at all to claim that it is just (just!!) some random, mindless shit. The alternative to "music does not describe the same way that language does" is not "music is just some random, mindless shit" but "music does something different from what language does, something very important, something that language can just barely approximate and then only when it is firing on all twelve cylinders. And how often does it do
that? Quote from: James on October 30, 2013, 03:18:57 AMMost musicians & serious music lovers know what dark means as it applies to timbre, register etc. and have for centuries.[/font]
I know what "dark" is supposed to mean as applied to timbre, register, etc., though have only done so for decades. (I'm not
that old.) If I didn't, I could hardly have made any of the jokes I have made on this thread, about different colors, about wanting a painting without a volume control (or at least, as Karl offered, one that goes up to 11), about being tone blind, and so forth. It's not that I don't know what it's supposed to mean; it's that I don't agree.
And then there was that the point about reductionism. Not so much that there aren't dark moments in any of these pieces (though personally I could do without the visual metaphors) but that all of these pieces are much more complex, much more various, much more interesting than just (just!) dark/black. So even if I grant you your blackness, I still don't think this business is worthwhile.
Anyway, your invalidation of your own self still makes me grin. And nothing you can do or say can ever take that away from me. :laugh:
Frank Bridge's Cello Concerto 'Oration' is a lament for those pointlessly lost in World War One. It does, however, have a hauntingly beautiful, redemptive epilogue - one of my favourite moments in all music.
Kabalevsky's Cello Concerto No. 2 is indeed a dark work - his masterpiece i think and conveying an unexpected depth of feeling.
I like my music so black that black holes suck themselves up in embarassment. >:D
I'm only listening to black-hued music until a darker color comes along.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6d8eKvegLI
Quote from: James on October 30, 2013, 04:53:11 AM
Well, at least you understand that it is an expressive language. So if you understand that, than you shouldn't have to ponder things much - you should get it essentially. And no one is reducing things .. talking about aspects of musc like mood, atmosphere, feel, color, symbolic & poetic aspects, human and spiritual dimensions & meanings ... all worthwhile discussion.
But
what music means has been up for discussion for at least a couple of centuries, and probably more. So it's not surprising that intelligent people such as the ones here at GMG have come to different conclusions about it. And that's all I'm going to say about it on this thread. :)
Quote from: vandermolen on October 30, 2013, 03:00:17 PM
Frank Bridge's Cello Concerto 'Oration' is a lament for those pointlessly lost in World War One. It does, however, have a hauntingly beautiful, redemptive epilogue - one of my favourite moments in all music.
Yes, I wanted to mention it, but see you did it already. Never happened before. ;)
Quote from: vandermolen on October 30, 2013, 03:00:17 PM
Frank Bridge's Cello Concerto 'Oration' is a lament for those pointlessly lost in World War One. It does, however, have a hauntingly beautiful, redemptive epilogue - one of my favourite moments in all music.
Kabalevsky's Cello Concerto No. 2 is indeed a dark work - his masterpiece i think and conveying an unexpected depth of feeling.
Yes, I have that Wallfisch/Chandos recording, and my-oh-my that truly is a wonderful, great piece. Yea, it's his masterpiece. The Khatchaturian? makes a perfect match.
Everyone is mocking the designation 'black', but I still think you all know what I mean. Again, as far as 'mood', Schnittke's bitter hatred (what else can one call it?) comes the closest aurally to what I'm talking about (it really isn't mistaking Schnittke's disposition, is there?).
Maybe I should have just asked for a bleaker, more bitter and angry, and lonely CC than Schnittke's 2nd? (Rouse?)
Quote from: snyprrr on November 01, 2013, 10:40:07 AM
Everyone is mocking the designation 'black'...
Only not nearly enough.
Poutiest Cello Concerto! Bring it!
Quote from: snyprrr on November 01, 2013, 10:40:07 AMEveryone is mocking the designation 'black', but I still think you all know what I mean.
This is probably the most frequently used non sequitur in the book.
I, at least, am mocking the designation
BECAUSE I know what you mean.
And the poutiest cello concerto has got to be the Herbert, if not at first, it certainly is now. :P
I've searched, and I'm back to the beginning... the Denisov and Yun still top the heap,... with Hallfter and Penderecki right there. And maybe Schnittke...
I was searching for more of the same in the Nordic Composers, but was not convinced by Sallinen, and, I'm sure the Holmboe is more Neo-Classical in style rather than morose. But I dooo like Saariaho's 'Amers', though, it's not emotionally dark, it just has a streamlined modern spectral way about it that fulfilled my initial requirements.
Bernd Alois Zimmermann
https://www.youtube.com/v/4ymtKG4TKkY
'Dark Pastoral' a fragment of Vaughan Williams's unfinished Cello Concerto, reconstructed by David Matthews.
Song of Orpheus ~ William Schumann.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3FdppWLMJQ
Let's talk Torke! May be it is more dark charcoal grey with a few reflective glimmers of light....
All synesthete jokes aside, this is very fine piece, and I think one of this composer's best.
It just may fit the requirement of that which the OP seeks.
Best regards.
Agree with Snyprrr mentioning Kabalevsky´s 2nd/Wallfisch and the Denisov one, especially in the Georgian/Kitayeno recording (as opposed to the more nondescript Vista Vera recording).
Guillaume Connesson ( a trailer about the recording)
https://youtu.be/TD4WcHWAZDw
Viktoria Yagling
https://youtu.be/gOANcK3voRI
Magnus Lindberg
https://youtu.be/V1afY1HZqI4
Cristobal Halffter
https://youtu.be/4vvfFSsyi6I
Quote from: snyprrr on October 20, 2015, 01:23:02 PM
I've searched, and I'm back to the beginning...
Yeah, you and me both. I've still not found a truly noisy painting.
I wonder why that is so....
Quote from: some guy on January 06, 2016, 02:58:34 AM
Yeah, you and me both. I've still not found a truly noisy painting.
I wonder why that is so....
"Pump up the Puce?"
Quote from: some guy on January 06, 2016, 02:58:34 AM
Yeah, you and me both. I've still not found a truly noisy painting.
I wonder why that is so....
Does this Screaming pope aply?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/56/Study_after_Velazquez's_Portrait_of_Pope_Innocent_X.jpg)
I can't hear you!!
(https://jaivirdi.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/hommedia.png)
Ok, got it!
I'm ready now.....
(http://www.peachridgeglass.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Megaphone.jpg)
Elisabeth Lutyens...: https://youtu.be/iTqPDO6LiUQ
The darkest mainstream cello concerto for me is the Elgar.
There is one by Jörg Widmann titled "Dunkle Saiten" ("dark strings", with a pun on "Dunkle Seiten" (= dark sides)) I have that disk but can't comment on the piece; it has been to long that I heard it.
[asin]B00005B7KZ[/asin]