Poll
Question:
Choose the one you couldn't live without
Option 1: Beethoven's
Option 2: Schubert's
Option 3: Bruckner's
Option 4: Dvorak's
Option 5: Mahler's
Option 6: Shostakovich's
Option 7: Other (tell which !)
Because it doesn't work so well with no. 41...
Robert Simpson's No.9 - must be heard to be believed.
Pretty easy vote for me: Bruckner's 9th. A work that has been near and dear to me since I started listening to classical music.
Well, I'll throw in a vote for the underdog, LvB.
Quote from: Discobolus on November 16, 2014, 05:21:39 PM
Because it doesn't work so well with no. 41...
Have not listened to Wolfie's 9th in a while. I will have to give the early part of the Tate cycle a spin.
Quote from: ZauberdrachenNr.7 on November 16, 2014, 05:34:23 PM
Robert Simpson's No.9 - must be heard to be believed.
That's an awesome work, but I had to give my vote to Mahler.
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 16, 2014, 05:37:42 PM
Pretty easy vote for me: Bruckner's 9th. A work that has been near and dear to me since I started listening to classical music.
That would have been my second choice.
Partly to get it better known, I am voting Simpson with Z7 (who heard about it from me I want to point out 8) )
I think Simpson would pick Bruckner.
Quote from: Ken B on November 16, 2014, 06:14:06 PM
I think Simpson would pick Bruckner.
He would be a smart man if he did. :)
Beethoven - love it, obviously, although it is not my favorite Beethoven symphony
Schubert - my favorite of the listed options, but I follow the new numbering and call it No. 8
Bruckner - don't know it very well, except the scherzo
Dvorak - I listen to his 3rd, 6th, 7th, and 8th more than his 9th
Mahler - never heard it
Shostakovich - love it!!
Never heard it?!!!! ???
I know you are young, but....
http://m.youtube.com/results?q=mahler%20symphony%209&sm=1
Quote from: Brian on November 16, 2014, 06:21:51 PM
Beethoven - love it, obviously, although it is not my favorite Beethoven symphony
+1
QuoteSchubert - my favorite of the listed options, but I follow the new numbering and call it No. 8
A stretch to call it no. 9, yes.
QuoteBruckner - don't know it very well, except the scherzo
:(
QuoteDvorak - I listen to his 3rd, 6th, 7th, and 8th more than his 9th
A qualified +1
QuoteMahler - never heard it
:-X Fix this yesterday.
QuoteShostakovich - love it!!
+1
RVW,
Schnittke &
Schuman are my favourites out of the ones not on the list. I need to listen to the
Simpson again, I recall liking it a lot.
Mahler,
Beethoven &
Bruckner are my favourite trio, I think I'll go with the
Mahler.
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 16, 2014, 06:34:05 PM
Never heard it?!!!! ???
I know you are young, but....
http://m.youtube.com/results?q=mahler%20symphony%209&sm=1
Or just click here :)
https://www.youtube.com/v/OeMLZR2xsRM
Mahler, with Bruckner second, Beethoven third - but a very close race between those.
--Bruce
D944.
Since, on reflection, I could probably live without Beethoven's Ninth, though it wouldn't be much of a life.
(Also, I'm still waiting for the 80 minutes of my life I spent listening to Mahler's Ninth back. I would much rather have lived without it ;) I would also definitely like to live without the New World Symphony.)
Ahh, this is soooooo hard. but I have to go with Ludwig van closely followed By Bruckner and Mahler. LvB's 9th just is a blessing to mankind (although suffering from the over-listening syndrome).
Now, if Sibelius ever got to write 9 symphonies.........
Quote from: Moonfish on November 16, 2014, 07:25:39 PM
Ahh, this is soooooo hard. but I have to go with Ludwig van closely followed By Bruckner and Mahler. LvB's 9th just is a blessing to mankind (although suffering from the over-listening syndrome).
Now, if Sibelius ever got to write 9 symphonies.........
Sibelius said somewhere that, with
Lemminkäinen Suite &
Kullervo, he essentially
did write 9. 8)
Quote from: Sibelius, summer of 1957Oikeastaan minulla on 9 sinfoniaa, sillä Kullervo ja Lemminkäinen sisältävät puhtaasti sonaattimuotoisia osia
"Actually I do have 9 symphonies, because
Kullervo and
Lemminkäinen contain movements in pure sonata form"
Quote from: Moonfish on November 16, 2014, 07:25:39 PM
Now, if Sibelius ever got to write 9 symphonies.........
Greedy, greedy.
Quote from: North Star on November 16, 2014, 07:40:56 PM
Sibelius said somewhere that, with Lemminkäinen Suite & Kullervo, he essentially did write 9. 8)
"Actually I do have 9 symphonies, because Kullervo and Lemminkäinen contain movements in pure sonata form"
I thought about choosing Sibelius, because I do love his "Ninth"!
Between Dvorak, Mahler, and Shostakovich, this is not easy. I'd have to go with Shostakovich.
I haven't heard LvB's 9th all the way through, though I do have the score. I might be the only person in the world who has heard Missa Solemnis (and plays it many times), but who hasn't heard the whole 9th.
Voted for Beethoven, although Mahler is very close. I would not want to live without either, although Beethoven wins, maybe just because I have known it for so much longer (and it is not as depressing).
Among the symphonies of each composer, Mahlers 9th is by far my favorite, whereas I like the Eroica about as much as the Beethoven 9th (and also the 7th a lot). For some reason I am not as fond of Schuberts Great C major (whatever the number 7, 8 or 9) as I should be, although the piece has been growing on me and I like it much better now than I did 20 or even 10 years ago. Still I can imagine quite well living without it. It seems also a very difficult piece to pull off. Interpretations run the risk of either sounding too much like Bruckner (and becoming a tedious bore, not that Bruckner is always boring, but Schubert played like that) or like shallow motoric run-throughs.
Bruckner's 9th is also among my favorites, but probably behind his 7th and maybe also the 5th. The Scherzo is one of his best, also the Adagio, of course. I have an oscillating relationship with Bruckner's music and have not listened to a lot of his music recently, so I cannot really say whether I prefer his 9th to Schubert's C major.
Dvorak's 9th I find overrated and prefer 7 and 8 and maybe also bits of his 6th.
Shostakovich's is a brilliant piece, but none I deeply care about.
I absolutely love Mahler No.9, such an immortal masterpiece it is! But Beethoven No.9 is my favourite work of all time (apart from Wagner's Ring); I'll go with the Beethoven.
Quote from: Brian on November 16, 2014, 06:21:51 PM
Schubert - my favorite of the listed options, but I follow the new numbering and call it No. 8
Quote from: North Star on November 16, 2014, 06:40:43 PM
A stretch to call it no. 9, yes. :(
Well it was my only choice here, the same comparison between symphonies no. 8 would be a little weird and only Bruckner could win :D
There is a Schubert symphony no. 7 though (D.729). It is finished, just not orchestrated, and it seems conductors take little interest in performing versions by Weingartner or Newbould, though this score is much more complete than Mahler's 10th or Bruckner's 9th last movement...
Possibly with good reason? Newbould's completion is pretty bland, not much better than Schubert's sketch with a figured bass added; Weingartner's, while more interesting musically, doesn't succeed in convincingly capturing the Schubert sound. Moreover the themes Schubert left for the allegro and finale of D729 are not of his highest quality, which (like the incomplete finale to D840 & several other works) suggests that he simply ran out of inspiration to finish the piece. Can't blame him in either case.
I recall reading that the finale of Bruckner 9 was recently discovered to be much closer to completion than previously thought, with sketches left for a concluding fugue and the biggest gap being left to the very ending (and that we can sort of deduce from every other composition by Bruckner: string tremolos, polyphonic combination of themes from the work, major key, short final chord, bam). But obviously it's not that simple as there has been a fair bit of controversy around the latest version, and there are other competing reconstructions etc, etc.
Quote from: amw on November 17, 2014, 01:44:33 AM
Possibly with good reason? Newbould's completion is pretty bland, not much better than Schubert's sketch with a figured bass added; Weingartner's, while more interesting musically, doesn't succeed in convincingly capturing the Schubert sound. Moreover the themes Schubert left for the allegro and finale of D729 are not of his highest quality, which (like the incomplete finale to D840 & several other works) suggests that he simply ran out of inspiration to finish the piece. Can't blame him in either case.
I recall reading that the finale of Bruckner 9 was recently discovered to be much closer to completion than previously thought, with sketches left for a concluding fugue and the biggest gap being left to the very ending (and that we can sort of deduce from every other composition by Bruckner: string tremolos, polyphonic combination of themes from the work, major key, short final chord, bam). But obviously it's not that simple as there has been a fair bit of controversy around the latest version, and there are other competing reconstructions etc, etc.
Yeah. And about Mahler even symphony no. 9 is unfinished in a way...
ABout Schubert, themes for D.944 are not of the highest quality either ::)
Quote from: Discobolus on November 17, 2014, 02:09:23 AM
ABout Schubert, themes for D.944 are not of the highest quality either ::)
That's a dirty lie and you know it. Okay, so maybe the main themes of the first and last movement are just short, repetitive rhythmic figures. And the scherzo just has this pitter-pattering pattern dominating the entire outer sections. And maybe some of the other themes in the finale are a bit too square-cut but SHUT UP. >:(
I find this one of the fascinating things about (late) Schubert: Generally hailed as one of the greatest writer of songs and songlike tunes, some of his best works like the Great C major, the Quartet D 887 and the Quintet are, at least in the outer movements usually not at all relying on pretty melodies. The most memorable tunes from the great C major are probably the trio and the introduction, although the andante is also somewhat tuneful.
Quote from: North Star on November 16, 2014, 07:40:56 PM
Sibelius said somewhere that, with Lemminkäinen Suite & Kullervo, he essentially did write 9. 8)
"Actually I do have 9 symphonies, because Kullervo and Lemminkäinen contain movements in pure sonata form"
'Tis true. And therefore his "actual" No. 9 would be the great single-movement C major. ;D 8) ;D Of course, since I tend to see Tapiola as a companion to the aforementioned C major, his full tally might be 10...
Mahler up by 2 over Beethoven...
seeing that for me very few things in the world even approach the greatness of Mahler 9, it was sort of an easy choice.
Quote from: Jay F on November 17, 2014, 08:05:48 AM
How? Why?
Yeah, exactly... Brian needs to get to it asap.
Quote from: Brian on November 16, 2014, 06:21:51 PMBruckner - don't know it very well, except the scherzo
Mahler - never heard it
:o
Goodness, what on earth are you waiting for?!?!?
When I was Brian's age, I hadn't heard the Mahler Ninth, either. (Just saying.)
Quote from: karlhenning on November 17, 2014, 09:24:49 AM
When I was Brian's age, I hadn't heard the Mahler Ninth, either. (Just saying.)
Well, given that Brian is a Mahler fan (or that I suspect anyway), I just find it a bit surprising.
Well, I wasn't really a Mahler Nine believer until I heard Jimmy lead the BSO in the piece here in the Hall!
Quote from: karlhenning on November 17, 2014, 09:34:07 AM
Well, I wasn't really a Mahler Nine believer until I heard Jimmy lead the BSO in the piece here in the Hall!
Ah yes, the old adage "Seeing is believing!" ;) :D
Quote from: Jay F on November 17, 2014, 08:05:48 AM
How? Why?
Mahler died before a performance could be arranged. His disciple Bruno Walter conducted the premiere.
I could live without Schostakovich's. All other are just parts of me. Voted for Beethoven of course.
Quote from: mszczuj on November 17, 2014, 11:31:29 AM
I could live without Schostakovich's. All other are just parts of me. Voted for Beethoven of course.
Considering that Shostakovich's 9th isn't on the same grand scale as the afore listed works, it doesn't surprise me. The symphony is quite satirical, but does contain some darkness. I love the work anyway and certainly consider it a feather in his cap. Anyway, great work.
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 17, 2014, 11:35:44 AM
Considering that Shostakovich's 9th isn't on the same grand scale as the afore listed works, it doesn't surprise me. The symphony is quite satirical, but does contain some darkness. I love the work anyway and certainly consider it a feather in his cap. Anyway, great work.
Nice music, but I have heard it probably not more than ten times. And it allways was just like listening to the music, never as living in other universe.
Quote from: mszczuj on November 17, 2014, 12:09:24 PM
Nice music, but I have heard it probably not more than ten times. And it allways was just like listening to the music, never as living in other universe.
Well, then you've completely missed the point of the work I think. After completing
Symphony No. 8, Shostakovich must have been worried about what the next symphony should sound like and, more importantly, would he live long enough to complete it? His
Symphony No. 9 is one of the greatest 'anti-Beethoven' symphonies ever created. If you notice, and know your history, of ninth symphonies, then you understand that there's some tragic element that, historically speaking, usually follows during the creation of such a symphony. What Shostakovich did, and quite brilliantly, I might add, is make this a lighter work and totally ignored what the Soviet artistic establishment were expecting and wanting to hear from him. Needless to say, this symphony was unpopular with Stalin and didn't really do well at its' premiere, but I think the message of the symphony is quite clear. A shame that you didn't catch any of this from this symphony.
It's a shame that Prokofiev didn't write 9. So I chose Schubert's, with a 2nd movement Andante that is better than any other movement in this list. :-X ;D
Mahler.
Bruckner's might be the greatest but Vaughan Williams's is my favourite.
Vaughan Williams' Ninth, no doubt.
Other faves are the Holmboe, Kinsella. Oops: forgot the Simpson.
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 17, 2014, 09:26:36 AM
Well, given that Brian is a Mahler fan (or that I suspect anyway), I just find it a bit surprising.
I don't think Brian is particularly a Mahler fan.
Without seeing this thread, I happened to listen to both the Mahler and the Dvorak today. I voted for Beethoven, and it wasn't a particularly tough decision, even though all of the choices are masterworks. I should listen to the Bruckner and the Shostakovich more.
Quote from: Pat B on November 18, 2014, 07:44:40 PM
I don't think Brian is particularly a Mahler fan.
Without seeing this thread, I happened to listen to both the Mahler and the Dvorak today. I voted for Beethoven, and it wasn't a particularly tough decision, even though all of the choices are masterworks. I should listen to the Bruckner and the Shostakovich more.
And the Simpson!
It is a close race....
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-vjBTD-H9BU4/UoDzL0gWJXI/AAAAAAAASLg/Lt_t-xHUwS8/s640/winter-foto-mit-pferde-im-schnee-hd-winter-hintergrund.jpg)
Nobody chose Dvorak? ???
I'll take my Schubert vote back and give it to Dvorak. It's a classic piece, deservedly placed in the commonly performed repertoire of orchestras across the world. >:D ;D
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on November 20, 2014, 10:04:27 AM
Nobody chose Dvorak? ???
I'll take my Schubert vote back and give it to Dvorak. It's a classic piece, deservedly placed in the commonly performed repertoire of orchestras across the world. >:D ;D
But the Schubert is great! Better you should take back one of those Mahler votes. >:D
Quote from: Christo on November 18, 2014, 01:17:26 PM
Vaughan Williams' Ninth, no doubt.
Other faves are the Holmboe, Kinsella. Oops: forgot the Simpson.
Same here although haven't properly got into the Simpson yet.
:)
Quote from: vandermolen on November 23, 2014, 07:44:58 AM
Same here although haven't properly got into the Simpson yet. :)
Great that you happen to know the Kinsella! His cycle of ten is my most recent obsession (with only a recording of the Eight still missing). Can't help repeating here that Kinsella's ten symphonies are one of the most impressive symphonic cycles that I know of - and he's still going strong and now embarked on No. 11.
Quote from: Christo on November 23, 2014, 07:53:09 AM
Great that you happen to know the Kinsella! His cycle of ten is my most recent obsession (with only a recording of the Eight still missing). Can't help repeating here that Kinsella's ten symphonies are one of the most impressive symphonic cycles that I know of - and he's still going strong and now embarked on No. 11.
Oh sorry Johan, I got that wrong I thought that you were referring to the newish CD I recently purchased, but I just checked and it has symphonies 6 and 7, so I haven't heard No. 9 yet. ::)
I consider 3 and 4 to be masterpieces and the return of the 'prevailing wind' motto theme at the end of No.4 is overwhelming and I find it very moving. No. 3, which reminds me a bit of Tubin and Raid (Lilburn has also been mentioned), though it is an absolutely original work, is an out-and-out masterpiece in my view.
He sent me an absolutely delightful letter when I wrote to him c/o RTE Dublin to say how much the Marco Polo disc meant to me. He said that as he had just delivered his 8th Symphony for performance he was feeling a bit vulnerable and had therefore appreciated my letter. :)
Quote from: vandermolen on November 23, 2014, 09:38:18 AM
Oh sorry Johan, I got that wrong I thought that you were referring to the newish CD I recently purchased, but I just checked and it has symphonies 6 and 7, so I haven't heard No. 9 yet. ::)
I consider 3 and 4 to be masterpieces and the return of the 'prevailing wind' motto theme at the end of No.4 is overwhelming and I find it very moving. No. 3, which reminds me a bit of Tubin and Raid (Lilburn has also been mentioned), though it is an absolutely original work, is an out-and-out masterpiece in my view.
He sent me an absolutely delightful letter when I wrote to him c/o RTE Dublin to say how much the Marco Polo disc meant to me. He said that as he had just delivered his 8th Symphony for performance he was feeling a bit vulnerable and had therefore appreciated my letter. :)
Again, great to learn. I think I read about his letter to you before, but with the detail added, the story becomes even greater. Yes, symphonies nos. 6 and 7 are equally impressive as nos. 3 and 4, but the same applies to nos. 9 and 10, also recently released. No. 10 coupled with no. 5, that I still have to listen to. Given that nos. 1 and 2 are on Youtube - but none of them as impressive as no. 3, Joie de vivre, which is simply georgeous - we only have to wait for a recording of no. 8 for a complete cycle. Great symphonist, and I mean it. :)
Quote from: Christo on November 23, 2014, 09:57:56 AM
Again, great to learn. I think I read about his letter to you before, but with the detail added, the story becomes even greater. Yes, symphonies nos. 6 and 7 are equally impressive as nos. 3 and 4, but the same applies to nos. 9 and 10, also recently released. No. 10 coupled with no. 5, that I still have to listen to. Given that nos. 1 and 2 are on Youtube - but none of them as impressive as no. 3, Joie de vivre, which is simply georgeous - we only have to wait for a recording of no. 8 for a complete cycle. Great symphonist, and I mean it. :)
Have just listened to the great 3 and 4 and now listening to No. 7 which I am very fond of. Your PM box is full but I emailed you about the letter.
Bruckner's is the only one of these which I love throughout. The finale of Beethoven 9 has to be one of the weakest movements in all his output, and in common with a lot of people, Mahler 9 is a let down for me after the astonishing first movement. The others I also like very much, but all have their patches of padding, despite being very special.
Quote from: Guido on November 23, 2014, 03:44:24 PM
Bruckner's is the only one of these which I love throughout. The finale of Beethoven 9 has to be one of the weakest movements in all his output, and in common with a lot of people, Mahler 9 is a let down for me after the astonishing first movement. The others I also like very much, but all have their patches of padding, despite being very special.
+1
Try the Simpson ...
Quote from: Guido on November 23, 2014, 03:44:24 PMin common with a lot of people, Mahler 9 is a let down for me after the astonishing first movement.
There is no composer I like more than Mahler, and I feel the same way about his Ninth. I like to play the first two CDs of Bernstein's original 3-CD CBS set, such that I hear all of 7 and just the first movement of 9. I like the first movement enough to have voted for Mahler in this poll, however.
Quote from: Jay F on November 23, 2014, 04:21:18 PM
There is no composer I like more than Mahler, and I feel the same way about his Ninth. I like to play the first two CDs of Bernstein's original 3-CD CBS set, such that I hear all of 7 and just the first movement of 9. I like the first movement enough to have voted for Mahler in this poll, however.
Interesting. For me it is the two inner movements which are truly special, while the first is essentially a lead-in to the rest, and the final movement the grand payoff.
Favorite 9th... hmm, tough choice. It's either Kletzki on modern instruments or Herreweghe on PI... :-\ I always hate to commit to these questions. :)
8)
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 23, 2014, 04:36:19 PM
Interesting. For me it is the two inner movements which are truly special, while the first is essentially a lead-in to the rest, and the final movement the grand payoff.
I think the Ninth can be balanced, but most conductors don't manage to pull it off (in my opinion even CSO/Boulez fails here with a painfully intense first movement and then a rapid falling off of intensity). There's something of a similar trap in the first part of the Fifth, where if the performance gives a full payoff to the climax of the second movement, the rest of the work can seem something of an afterthought.
Of all the recordings I know, I find only Maderna manages to milk the first movement yet keep the work balanced, and that's due to a lot of very subtle details plus a very unusual interpretation of the last movement. (More conventionally balanced interpretations would, to me, include Ancerl and Barbirolli.)
Quote from: Guido on November 23, 2014, 03:44:24 PM
Bruckner's is the only one of these which I love throughout. The finale of Beethoven 9 has to be one of the weakest movements in all his output, and in common with a lot of people, Mahler 9 is a let down for me after the astonishing first movement. The others I also like very much, but all have their patches of padding, despite being very special.
I love the last movement too.
I love the choral finale of the Beethoven (it is a strangely underrated piece in some quarters, apparently people love to hate it) and I think the unusual movements in unusual order of Mahler's 9th are a stroke of genius. He probably got this from Tchaikovsky's Pathetique (although the Mahler 3rd already has a slow finale). This is far more successful than trying to rehash the idea of a triumphant finale (like in the 2nd or 7th) which can only fail when compared to e.g. Beethoven.
Quote from: Jo498 on November 23, 2014, 11:03:51 PM
This is far more successful than trying to rehash the idea of a triumphant finale
But it is triumphant.
Quote from: Jo498 on November 23, 2014, 11:03:51 PM
I love the choral finale of the Beethoven (it is a strangely underrated piece in some quarters, apparently people love to hate it) and I think the unusual movements in unusual order of Mahler's 9th are a stroke of genius. He probably got this from Tchaikovsky's Pathetique (although the Mahler 3rd already has a slow finale). This is far more successful than trying to rehash the idea of a triumphant finale (like in the 2nd or 7th) which can only fail when compared to e.g. Beethoven.
It's unusual, but it makes so much sense. Start slow, end slow. The beginning and end is for reflection. Keep the wild and crazy stuff in the middle. It's the only way I'd write a symphony intended to be epic.
Quote from: Greg on November 24, 2014, 09:32:47 PM
It's unusual, but it makes so much sense. Start slow, end slow. The beginning and end is for reflection. Keep the wild and crazy stuff in the middle. It's the only way I'd write a symphony intended to be epic.
True. I love all four movements, but my favorites are the last two.
Quote from: mszczuj on November 24, 2014, 12:42:35 PM
But it is triumphant.
maybe, but not "conventionally triumphant". Commentators speak of "dissolving", "Nirwana", not of everlasting glory.
Quote from: EigenUser on November 25, 2014, 12:14:42 AM
True. I love all four movements, but my favorites are the last two.
I think all 4 movements of Mahler's 9 are supreme examples of "types" he had written earlier examples of, but not always on such a scale. This seems obvious for 2 and 3, the grotesque Laendler (+ waltz) and the angry scherzo with polyphonic sections (and a starkly contrasting "trio", here not a wistful reminiscence, but a prefiguration of the finale). A slow ecstatic finale we have in the 3rd (and with a twist in the 4th). Not so sure about the 1st movement, although the march-like sections are of course well-known from other pieces, the closest predecessor might be the 1st mvtmt. of the 7th (or the finale of "Das Lied von der Erde").
I happen to think that Beethoven's 9th is a very similar case. Even the choral finale has predecessors (the Eroica finale and the choral fantasy as well as the choral fugues of the missa solemnis).
Both composers achieve extraordinary and highly original works on a huge scale, but both are firmly rooted in earlier movements of their respective ouevres.
Quote from: Jo498 on November 25, 2014, 12:34:36 AM
I think all 4 movements of Mahler's 9 are supreme examples of "types" he had written earlier examples of, but not always on such a scale. This seems obvious for 2 and 3, the grotesque Laendler (+ waltz) and the angry scherzo with polyphonic sections (and a starkly contrasting "trio", here not a wistful reminiscence, but a prefiguration of the finale). A slow ecstatic finale we have in the 3rd (and with a twist in the 4th). Not so sure about the 1st movement, although the march-like sections are of course well-known from other pieces, the closest predecessor might be the 1st mvtmt. of the 7th (or the finale of "Das Lied von der Erde").
Ha, that's actually a not fully developed thought I've had before. If I had to choose each movement's "predecessors":
1: difficult to say since it's so unique, but I'd say the opening movement from the 7th
2: too many to list (possibly several movements from the 7th), or maybe even the 2nd movement from the 2nd symphony
3: definitely the 2nd movement from the 5th
4: definitely the final movement from the 3rd
Quote from: Greg on November 25, 2014, 04:37:33 PM
Ha, that's actually a not fully developed thought I've had before. If I had to choose each movement's "predecessors":
1: difficult to say since it's so unique, but I'd say the opening movement from the 7th
2: too many to list (possibly several movements from the 7th), or maybe even the 2nd movement from the 2nd symphony
3: definitely the 2nd movement from the 5th
4: definitely the final movement from the 3rd
4 could also be the final (6th) movement from
Das Lied von der Erde.
No other votes for DSCH9? :(
Quote from: EigenUser on November 26, 2014, 03:00:41 AM
4 could also be the final (6th) movement from Das Lied von der Erde.
No other votes for DSCH9? :(
I haven't voted (I find it impossible to choose between those Ninths plus several not listed, e.g., Vaughan Williams) but whenever I have had the urge to vote (just so I could see the results) Shostakovich was the most likely candidate if for no other reason than it's the Ninth I listen to most often. It might happen one day 8)
Sarge
Sweet!
Funny to see Dvorak with 0 vote :D
Quote from: EigenUser on November 26, 2014, 03:00:41 AM
4 could also be the final (6th) movement from Das Lied von der Erde.
No other votes for DSCH9? :(
All those Mahler votes were really Shosty votes - people were just one row off! Maybe a mod could correct their error! 8)
Quote from: EigenUser on November 26, 2014, 03:00:41 AM
4 could also be the final (6th) movement from Das Lied von der Erde.
I'd say that's a much closer parallel.
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 17, 2014, 12:19:41 PM
Well, then you've completely missed the point of the work I think. After completing Symphony No. 8, Shostakovich must have been worried about what the next symphony should sound like and, more importantly, would he live long enough to complete it? His Symphony No. 9 is one of the greatest 'anti-Beethoven' symphonies ever created. If you notice, and know your history, of ninth symphonies, then you understand that there's some tragic element that, historically speaking, usually follows during the creation of such a symphony. What Shostakovich did, and quite brilliantly, I might add, is make this a lighter work and totally ignored what the Soviet artistic establishment were expecting and wanting to hear from him. Needless to say, this symphony was unpopular with Stalin and didn't really do well at its' premiere, but I think the message of the symphony is quite clear. A shame that you didn't catch any of this from this symphony.
Well, I would call his No.4 nice music as well. I have probably my taste and my sensitivity calibrated in other way than yours. Yes, there is a lot of anxiety in Shostakovich No.9, but as a man who grown in communist country I cant find any special merit in playing with censure. This was the way we lived once and I can understand this but I wouldn't rate the work basing on it.
I don't think there is anything which could be called 'anti-Beethoven' in writing music based on simply (or just no so dramatic) tunes. Beethoven No. 1 is much lighter in construction than famous symphonies of previous years and it is done so - without any doubt - by reason, as he usually tried in this years to make his music heavier than that of his predecessors. His No.8 is based on cheerful tunes but nevertheless it is full of dramatic tensions, especially in developments, probably no less dramatic than in any other of his works. So it could be only objection about some bombastic cult of his music, which lead to overrating the value of numbers attributed to works, but I don't think it is a problem which is worth to make any action.
It is just still less in Shostakovich work for me than all that I owe to its rivals in this poll, or other Nos.9 which I like more than it (as this of VW). I feel no shame because of it, alas.
Last movement of Das Lied von der Erde is almost the outer movements of the 9th rolled into one. There is both the funeral-like-march-like stuff of impending death, longing for life and finally withdrawal and dissolution/redemption.
Quote from: mszczuj on November 26, 2014, 06:09:12 AM
Well, I would call his No.4 nice music as well. I have probably my taste and my sensitivity calibrated in other way than yours. Yes, there is a lot of anxiety in Shostakovich No.9, but as a man who grown in communist country I cant find any special merit in playing with censure. This was the way we lived once and I can understand this but I wouldn't rate the work basing on it.
I don't think there is anything which could be called 'anti-Beethoven' in writing music based on simply (or just no so dramatic) tunes. Beethoven No. 1 is much lighter in construction than famous symphonies of previous years and it is done so - without any doubt - by reason, as he usually tried in this years to make his music heavier than that of his predecessors. His No.8 is based on cheerful tunes but nevertheless it is full of dramatic tensions, especially in developments, probably no less dramatic than in any other of his works. So it could be only objection about some bombastic cult of his music, which lead to overrating the value of numbers attributed to works, but I don't think it is a problem which is worth to make any action.
It is just still less in Shostakovich work for me than all that I owe to its rivals in this poll, or other Nos.9 which I like more than it (as this of VW). I feel no shame because of it, alas.
When I refer to 'anti-Beethoven,' I'm referring to only Shostakovich's 9th in relation to Beethoven's 9th and not any of either composer's other music. Surely, you're familiar with the 'ninth dilemma' and how many composer's died after composing their ninth symphonies? That's what I'm referring to and I believe you misunderstood what I was actually talking about. But now, you know. :)
Quote from: Jo498 on November 26, 2014, 06:12:52 AM
Last movement of Das Lied von der Erde is almost the outer movements of the 9th rolled into one. There is both the funeral-like-march-like stuff of impending death, longing for life and finally withdrawal and dissolution/redemption.
I don't find anything like this in No.9 Final. For me it is warm, extatic and triumphant with dissolving only in the epilogue but it is dissolving in something which is infinitely higher that would be achievable before Final starts. But I don't find any resignation in any Mahler work. Even in Der Abschied is much more. On the other hand the last movement of No.3 was to me in some way the twin movement of that of No.9.
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 26, 2014, 06:15:32 AM
When I refer to 'anti-Beethoven,' I'm referring to only Shostakovich's 9th in relation to Beethoven's 9th and not any of either composer's other music. Surely, you're familiar with the 'ninth dilemma' and how many composer's died after composing their ninth symphonies? That's what I'm referring to and I believe you misunderstood what I was actually talking about. But now, you know. :)
I had understood it I hope, I just couldn't stop to make some 'pro-Beethoven' remarks while discussing with 'anti-Beethoven' listener.
I have a soft spot for Dvorak's ninth as it was the first symphony I really "got" and enjoyed. And I really love Schubert's ninth (although I like his eighth even more). My favorite has to be Mahler's, as it moves me like no other.