Perhaps the Wind Quintet, Op.26? Its reputation may have suffered for lack of a performance/recording to serve as good embassage.
Or, perhaps the same is to be said of the Suite-Septet, Op.29?
I was tempted to suggest the Weihnachtsmusik, but I think that one more correctly unknown rather than underrated.
I actually don't feel there are any. I think he gets so much scrutiny that it makes it difficult to find sparkling gems that no one knows about. Even though he is not a favorite, I find the quality of his output generally high.
Perfectly fair.
Perhaps the violin concerto, which I think has suffered from unspectacular recordings in the past (fortunately we now have Hahn/Salonen and Schulte/Craft).
I might add the Serenade, which is a delightful work but seems to get very little attention (having a vocal soloist for 3 minutes out of 35 probably doesn't help).
And I'll second any mention of Weihnachtsmusik.
yea, i guess what you said, but yea,... i don't understand why the concern... I think it's correct that ASCH has been "fairly" dealt with, and his, uh, "small" output has been placed in its proper context.
The ones mentioned aren't really 'Underrated', are they? I though ALL ASCH was "judged" to be about the same watermark (good or bad, not being critical)
Actually, rainy today would be perfect ASCH weather if I had the WWQ here (Atherton).
None of it is underrated is a possible outcome of this discussion.
Given that Die Jakobsleiter hasn't been recorded too often (I believe Moses und Aron even has more recordings), I choose this work as one of Schoenberg's most underrated. I really love this work, too. The Boulez recording is great. I have yet to hear Nagano's.
Music to accompany a film scene*
*or whatever its formal title is...I do not have it handy.
Most
overrated would probably be Pierrot Lunaire.
[Takes cover while Karl fetches Sarge's bazooka]
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 17, 2014, 06:45:20 AM
Given that Die Jakobsleiter hasn't been recorded too often (I believe Moses und Aron even has more recordings), I choose this work as one of Schoenberg's most underrated. I really love this work, too. The Boulez recording is great. I have yet to hear Nagano's.
Given that Schoenberg more or less abandoned it, perhaps even he underrated it.
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 17, 2014, 06:51:37 AM
Music to accompany a film scene*
*or whatever its formal title is...I do not have it handy.
Yes, the original title is
Begleitmusik zu einer Lichtspielszene and it's a fantastic work! Love it!
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 17, 2014, 06:51:37 AMGiven that Schoenberg more or less abandoned it, perhaps even he underrated it.
Yep and according to the Wikipedia article, he left 700 measures unfinished. :( Still, it's a hell of work given it's incomplete.
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 17, 2014, 06:51:37 AM
Most overrated would probably be Pierrot Lunaire.
[Takes cover while Karl fetches Sarge's bazooka]
Nah, I'm in Flower Child mode at least until 1Q15 ;)
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 17, 2014, 06:45:20 AM
Given that Die Jakobsleiter hasn't been recorded too often (I believe Moses und Aron even has more recordings), I choose this work as one of Schoenberg's most underrated. I really love this work, too. The Boulez recording is great. I have yet to hear Nagano's.
Absolutely haunting work! Yes, this may be the most underrated of
Schoenberg's works! I used to have my 4th year German students translate the - seemingly unmusical - text, and then we listened to it. What is fascinating is how that text does flow throughout the work.
I used to own a recording with a fascinating performance conducted by
Bruno Maderna, but it was destroyed.
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 17, 2014, 06:57:31 AM
Yep and according to the Wikipedia article, he left 700 measures unfinished. :( Still, it's a hell of work given it's incomplete.
I think there is a mistake: the entire work is about that length. I don't have my score with me, but I believe it has just under 700 bars. Perhaps the article means that there are c. 700 bars in the score which are playable, and comprising what we do have today, but perhaps not in "finished" form.
I do not recall ever hearing about
another 700 bars in "unfinished" form, but perhaps this is something new. Later today I will consult my score and see what information might be in it.
Quote from: Cato on November 17, 2014, 08:10:16 AM
Absolutely haunting work! Yes, this may be the most underrated of Schoenberg's works! I used to have my 4th year German students translate the - seemingly unmusical - text, and then we listened to it. What is fascinating is how that text does flow throughout the work.
I used to own a recording with a fascinating performance conducted by Bruno Maderna, but it was destroyed.
I think there is a mistake: the entire work is about that length. I don't have my score with me, but I believe it has just under 700 bars. Perhaps the article means that there are c. 700 bars in the score which are playable, and comprising what we do have today, but perhaps not in "finished" form.
I do not recall ever hearing about another 700 bars in "unfinished" form, but perhaps this is something new. Later today I will consult my score and see what information might be in it.
Seems I struck a chord with you here, Cato. :) Yes, a magnificent work whether it's unfinished or not. Yeah, it's hard to decipher Wikipedia articles at times. I'd love to know any kind of information you can provide us with here. I'll have to track down that Maderna recording. I know it's on YouTube, but I would rather own an actual copy of his performance.
I forgot that Gielen has a performance of Die Jakobsleiter that's coupled with Mahler's 8th. Has anyone heard it?
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/614Xa9HY-WL.jpg)
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 17, 2014, 09:02:05 AM
I forgot that Gielen has a performance of Die Jakobsleiter that's coupled with Mahler's 8th. Has anyone heard it?
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/614Xa9HY-WL.jpg)
I have not, but I suspect it is well worth hearing . . . and I am tempted to hear his account of the
Mahler Eighth . . . .
Quote from: karlhenning on November 17, 2014, 09:23:54 AM
I have not, but I suspect it is well worth hearing . . . and I am tempted to hear his account of the Mahler Eighth[/b . . . .
I thought you weren't keen on Mahler's music, Karl?
In a sense, that is true, John: my ears as a rule do not hunger after Mahler as they do after quite a few other composers. But, I have become positively reconciled to his symphonies. I do not often seek out the Eighth, in particular, but the thought of a Gielen recording has me keen to give it a listen.
I'm more enthusiastic about the Bruckner symphonies than about Mahler's; and Bruckner generally waits his turn behind a few other composers. That said, though, I do enjoy pretty much all the Mahler symphonies . . . just need to be in the mood.
Quote from: karlhenning on November 17, 2014, 09:29:18 AM
In a sense, that is true, John: my ears as a rule do not hunger after Mahler as they do after quite a few other composers. But, I have become positively reconciled to his symphonies. I do not often seek out the Eighth, in particular, but the thought of a Gielen recording has me keen to give it a listen.
I'm more enthusiastic about the Bruckner symphonies than about Mahler's; and Bruckner generally waits his turn behind a few other composers. That said, though, I do enjoy pretty much all the Mahler symphonies . . . just need to be in the mood.
Good to hear, Karl. I'm not the greatest Mahler fan in the world but I really love his
Symphonies Nos. 4-7. Like you, I have to be in the mood for his music and there's plenty of other composers whose music I reach for instead. I'm not as much into Bruckner as I was say four years ago, but I still admire his music and well I admire Mahler's as well.
Or moved under the Schoenberg topic?
Concerning
Die Jakobsleiter: I have the Universal Edition score with a preface by the editor, a certain Rudolf Stephan, which was written in 1976.
He says that bars 1-601 were finished before
Schoenberg was drafted into the army for World War I. Another 100 bars were added after
Schoenberg returned, with the work breaking off in 1922. An attempt to do more in 1944 was more of a revision of the first 100 bars, and involved directions for the performance (especially off-stage groups of choirs and instrumentalists) more than anything else.
Weeks before he died,
Schoenberg was involved in having conductor
Karl Rankl write out a clean copy of what had been composed up until then (i.e. bars 1-701). One of
Schoenberg's students, Winfried Zillig, apparently produced a clean copy and did some editing for a performing version.
And Zillig himself has an excellent comment:
QuoteStrangely enough, the conclusion of the 'Jacob's Ladder fragment is one of the most impressive endings in the whole of Occidental music. Schönberg's invention of sounds floating in space does indeed lead to new regions....this strange and unique enchantment arises directly from the work's unfinished state: for such a work, given its intellectual premise, can provide only an incomplete answer in view of mankind's limitations when facing the eternal."
(My emphasis above.)
Much like with
Moses und Aron,
Schoenberg thought he was not done, but the work itself had other ideas!
Quote from: Cato on November 17, 2014, 01:50:05 PM
Concerning Die Jakobsleiter: I have the Universal Edition score with a preface by the editor, a certain Rudolf Stephan, which was written in 1976.
He says that bars 1-601 were finished before Schoenberg was drafted into the army for World War I. Another 100 bars were added after Schoenberg returned, with the work breaking off in 1922. An attempt to do more in 1944 was more of a revision of the first 100 bars, and involved directions for the performance (especially off-stage groups of choirs and instrumentalists) more than anything else.
Weeks before he died, Schoenberg was involved in having conductor Karl Rankl write out a clean copy of what had been composed up until then (i.e. bars 1-701). One of Schoenberg's students, Winfried Zillig, apparently produced a clean copy and did some editing for a performing version.
And Zillig himself has an excellent comment:
(My emphasis above.)
Much like with Moses und Aron, Schoenberg thought he was not done, but the work itself had other ideas!
Most interesting, Cato. Thanks for the information.
The Serenade Op. 24 and Suite Op. 29 seem pretty neglected, though that could be just because of odd combinations of instruments. Also Ode to Napoleon.
(Most overrated: Verklärte Nacht by a long shot.)
Probably his solo piano music. Anyone heard it? It's good stuff but nary a mention that I've seen in forever.
Quote from: James on November 17, 2014, 02:30:02 PM
I feel that it is all underrated ..
Gurrelieder is overrated.
Has anyone heard Die Gückliche Hand?
I think Schönberg is generally not well received, partly because of Adorno's continued influence. And partly because the late music is so emotional. I've recently spent a lot of time listening to th 3rd quartet, which must be the least appreciated of his quartets. I think it's great music, but very hard to get off the page in all four movements.
Quote from: Cato on November 17, 2014, 08:10:16 AM
Absolutely haunting work! Yes, this may be the most underrated of Schoenberg's works! I used to have my 4th year German students translate the - seemingly unmusical - text, and then we listened to it. What is fascinating is how that text does flow throughout the work.
I used to own a recording [of Die Jakobsleiter] with a fascinating performance conducted by Bruno Maderna, but it was destroyed.
But surely you have a digital copy of the Maderna recording? ;)
Quote from: Mandryka on November 17, 2014, 09:22:56 PM
Gurrelieder is overrated.
Has anyone heard Die Gückliche Hand?
I think Schönberg is generally not well received, partly because of Adorno's continued influence.
How that? Because people do not like Adorno and he lobbied for Schoenberg? Adorno died in 1969. How many people (especially outside German speaking countries) without a degree in philosophy, musicology or similar subjects have even heard of Adorno, much less read his stuff on music?
Quote from: North Star on November 17, 2014, 11:42:47 PM
But surely you have a digital copy of the Maderna recording? ;)
Yes, in the vast "digital" Cato archives! 0:)
Quote from: Mandryka on November 17, 2014, 09:22:56 PM
Gurrelieder is overrated.
Has anyone heard Die Gückliche Hand?
I think Schönberg is generally not well received, partly because of Adorno's continued influence. And partly because the late music is so emotional. I've recently spent a lot of time listening to the 3rd quartet, which must be the least appreciated of his quartets. I think it's great music, but very hard to get off the page in all four movements.
The work has its problems, and certainly in his later years
Schoenberg commented that only the "Speaker" section interested him, but taken as a whole I think it is marvelous.
Yes,
Die Glueckliche Hand is similar to
Erwartung in that it is a short opera with a fairly mysterious text. However, it needs larger forces for a performance, which is probably why it is not staged much. The music is in the same "atonal" style of
Schoenberg's middle period, and is a barn burner! 8)
As
Jo498 pointed out,
Adorno - especially as a philosopher of music - is pretty much ignored today, although one must admit he supported the Second Vienna School quite well. He seemed to have Thomas Mann's ear quite often. However, he also wrote a good deal of nonsense disguised as higher thought, intellectual jargon on a Moebius strip looping around on itself. Undoubtedly he thought he was going somewhere with his ideas.
Concerning the
Third Quartet: I have told the story before here on GMG. I was once playing this during my adolescence at a high volume in the month of July. My mother used an unpleasant word to describe the work and told me to turn it off, since "the weather's too hot to be playing that ??? ??? ??? !" :laugh:
I was still drunk when I wrote that about Adorno and Schoenberg, I was confusing Schoenberg and Stravinsky.
What's your views about the third quartet? I still have problems enjoying the third movement sometimes. It's Leipzig Quartet's performance which I've found the most satisfying,
Quote from: Mandryka on November 17, 2014, 09:22:56 PM
Gurrelieder is overrated.
Has anyone heard Die Gückliche Hand?
I think Schönberg is generally not well received, partly because of Adorno's continued influence. And partly because the late music is so emotional. I've recently spent a lot of time listening to th 3rd quartet, which must be the least appreciated of his quartets. I think it's great music, but very hard to get off the page in all four movements.
Never heard 'Gurrelieder'. Saw Ozawa at the library (the redneck library, mind you!!),... put it in... ok... starts off nice... Debussy+Szymanowski+much-milder(no Big Things yet)... ok, I liked it until the singing started, then it just sounded like a billion other Classical singing pieces... what, wait....
what's that I hear??
oh
it's me snorning (...zzZZZzzzz..... zzZzzz..... zzzZZZZZzzzz....)
Carl Sagan transformed into music?
Well, I do wish I had some Schoenberg I liked around... all at the storage facility... I'd settle for the String Trio at the moment...
Quote from: Mandryka on November 18, 2014, 08:05:03 AM
I was still drunk when I wrote that about Adorno and Schoenberg, I was confusing Schoenberg and Stravinsky.
What's your views about the third quartet? I still have problems enjoying the third movement sometimes. It's Leipzig Quartet's performance which I've found the most satisfying,
you have Arditti too? I thought I found Leipzig just a touch insecure(not the correct word) as compared to the steely Arditti. The Arditti are grimly perfect here, imo.
Quote from: snyprrr on November 18, 2014, 08:10:20 AM
you have Arditti too? I thought I found Leipzig just a touch insecure(not the correct word) as compared to the steely Arditti. The Arditti are grimly perfect here, imo.
They have that reputation in general! ;)
Quote from: snyprrr on November 18, 2014, 08:08:40 AM
Never heard 'Gurrelieder'. Saw Ozawa at the library (the redneck library, mind you!!),... put it in... ok... starts off nice... Debussy+Szymanowski+much-milder(no Big Things yet)... ok, I liked it until the singing started, then it just sounded like a billion other Classical singing pieces... what, wait....
what's that I hear??
oh
it's me snorning (...zzZZZzzzz..... zzZzzz..... zzzZZZZZzzzz....)
Carl Sagan transformed into music?
Well, I do wish I had some Schoenberg I liked around... all at the storage facility... I'd settle for the String Trio at the moment...
This is a very good description of Gurrelieder. I have heard Arditti in 3 - but I have been devoting myself to leipzig for the past couple of months. I'll go and relisten to Arditti now that you've suggested it.
The whole question of how to play Schoenberg is interesting, he is an expressionist by temperament, right? The music's all about very strong and unusual feelings? So steely and grim may not be doing it justice, I don't know.
Quote from: James on November 18, 2014, 08:33:34 AM
I don't think it registers much at all.
Well, I've even heard it in a prom, with Hans Hotter of all people.
Quote from: James on November 18, 2014, 08:33:34 AM
I don't think it registers much at all.
Indeed. If only conductors like Abbado, Boulez, Chailly, Craft, Del Mar, Gielen, Inbal, Jansons, Kegel, Kubelik, Levine, Mehta, Ozawa, Rattle, Salonen, Sinopoli, and Stokowski had recorded it. Oh, wait.. 8)
Quote from: North Star on November 18, 2014, 08:57:26 AM
Indeed. If only conductors like Abbado, Boulez, Chailly, Craft, Del Mar, Gielen, Inbal, Jansons, Kegel, Kubelik, Levine, Mehta, Ozawa, Rattle, Salonen, Sinopoli, and Stokowski had recorded it. Oh, wait.. 8)
Well, and what do
those tossers know? 8)
Quote from: North Star on November 18, 2014, 08:57:26 AM
Indeed. If only conductors like Abbado, Boulez, Chailly, Craft, Del Mar, Gielen, Inbal, Jansons, Kegel, Kubelik, Levine, Mehta, Ozawa, Rattle, Salonen, Sinopoli, and Stokowski had recorded it. Oh, wait.. 8)
You've left out Leibowitz, who didn't record it either,
Karlo. Oh, wait... ;)
Quote from: North Star on November 18, 2014, 08:57:26 AM
Indeed. If only conductors like Abbado, Boulez, Chailly, Craft, Del Mar, Gielen, Inbal, Jansons, Kegel, Kubelik, Levine, Mehta, Ozawa, Rattle, Salonen, Sinopoli, and Stokowski had recorded it. Oh, wait.. 8)
+1
It always cracks me up when threads like this devolve into chest-thumping "I know best" blah-blah. If I didn't know better I'd have guessed Ken B had done a drive-by on this thread...
Quote from: ritter on November 18, 2014, 09:14:40 AM
You've left out Leibowitz, who didn't record it either, Karlo. Oh, wait... ;)
There you have it: With
some people, no matter how great the art,
it doesn't register 8)
Quote from: North Star on November 18, 2014, 08:57:26 AM
Indeed. If only conductors like Abbado, Boulez, Chailly, Craft, Del Mar, Gielen, Inbal, Jansons, Kegel, Kubelik, Levine, Mehta, Ozawa, Rattle, Salonen, Sinopoli, and Stokowski had recorded it. Oh, wait.. 8)
Well that shows that it's highly rated I suppose - unless they were recording it for other reasons. I imagine it's popular with conservatives and reactionaries, people who mostly like common practice stuff. Conerts may sell out etc.
But come now, compared with some of his later works - Moses und Aaron for example - this Gurrelieder is derivative and leads nowhere. Hence, overrated.
You've just contradicted yourself. Because Schoenberg later composed Moses und Aron, it is bamboozelry to assert that the Gurre-Lieder "lead nowhere." It is also a weaselly lapse into the "musical Darwinism" of which James is so fond.
Quote from: karlhenning on November 18, 2014, 10:01:42 AM
You've just contradicted yourself. Because Schoenberg later composed Moses und Aron, it is bamboozelry to assert that the Gurre-Lieder "lead nowhere." It is also a weaselly lapse into the "musical Darwinism" of which James is so fond.
OK. Probably yes. I've had enough of trolling for one evening.
Gurrelieder are great ! Seriously people, it is at the same time a great work and not underrated at all if you look at the discography. It is not as frequently performed as it should be though, not much more than once or twice in all Europe every year :( I have not heard it (missed the previous performances) and am eagerly waiting for such a concert :)
If I had to consider what Schoenberg work is really underrated, I think I'd go with Erwartung. Yes, it's short, but it's a fabulous vocal work, and the fact it is short should in fact help it being frequently included in concert programs. Why it is not is a mystery to me. Even on record it is difficult to find good performances, except Silja/Dohnanyi, Norman/Levine, Janis Martin/Boulez (the best, I think) and a very few number of other, second rate performances.
Quote from: Discobolus on November 18, 2014, 10:18:18 AM
Gurrelieder are great ! Seriously people, it is at the same time a great work and not underrated at all if you look at the discography. It is not as frequently performed as it should be though, not much more than once or twice in all Europe every year :( I have not heard it (missed the previous performances) and am eagerly waiting for such a concert :)
If I had to consider what Schoenberg work is really underrated, I think I'd go with Erwartung. Yes, it's short, but it's a fabulous vocal work, and the fact it is short should in fact help it being frequently included in concert programs. Why it is not is a mystery to me. Even on record it is difficult to find good performances, except Silja/Dohnanyi, Norman/Levine, Janis Martin/Boulez (the best, I think) and a very few number of other, second rate performances.
I've heard the
Gurre-Lieder twice accompanied by the
BSO, and it is a rich, magnificent work. It's no good despising it for not being [name a later
Schoenberg work] any more than it is despising
L'oiseau de feu for comparable reasons.
Erwartung, yes, a good point.
Pierrot is a bit easier to put together (21 discrete numbers, and smaller forces for the accompaniment).
Quote from: amw on November 17, 2014, 06:11:24 PM
(Most overrated: Verklärte Nacht by a long shot.)
Start your own thread, buddy!
8)
Quote from: Mandryka on November 17, 2014, 09:22:56 PM
Has anyone heard Die Gückliche Hand?
Die glückliche Hand is marvelously intense; and (I think) a good suggestion for the thread.
Quote from: Discobolus on November 18, 2014, 10:18:18 AM
Gurrelieder are great ! Seriously people, it is at the same time a great work and not underrated at all if you look at the discography. It is not as frequently performed as it should be though, not much more than once or twice in all Europe every year :( I have not heard it (missed the previous performances) and am eagerly waiting for such a concert :)
Well, we have Eliahu Inbal conducting the Spanish National Orchestra and Chorus this weekend in
Gurrelieder!...The problem is, the chorus has been on strike on and off over the past several concerts (they did Prokofiev's
Alexander Nevsky last month with only twelve singers! :( ), so I'll only get tickets when I'm certain I'll be getting the real thing...can't imagine a chamber version of
Gurrelieder (except for the
Lied der Waldtaube, of course ;) ).
Quote from: Mandryka on November 18, 2014, 09:44:05 AM
But come now, compared with some of his later works - Moses und Aaron for example - this Gurrelieder is derivative and leads nowhere. Hence, overrated.
Quote from: karlhenning on November 18, 2014, 10:01:42 AM
You've just contradicted yourself. Because Schoenberg later composed Moses und Aron, it is bamboozelry to assert that the Gurre-Lieder "lead nowhere." It is also a weaselly lapse into the "musical Darwinism" of which James is so fond.
I don't have the scores at hand right now, but
Gurrelieder echoes several times in
Moses und Aron and also in
Jakobsleiter.
Klaus-Narr is not too far removed from
Aron and is a first cousin to
Der Aufrührerischer (The Revolutionary) in
Jakobsleiter. If one listens especially to the Klaus-Narr section of
Gurrelieder back-to-back with the Revolutionary section of
Jakobsleiter, the similarities will be very obvious.
Gurrelieder most definitely leads to those works and to others.
Quote from: Cato on November 18, 2014, 02:08:53 PM
I don't have the scores at hand right now, but Gurrelieder echoes several times in Moses und Aron and also in Jakobsleiter. Klaus-Narr is not too far removed from Aron and is a first cousin to Der Aufrührerischer (The Revolutionary) in Jakobsleiter. If one listens especially to the Klaus-Narr section of Gurrelieder back-to-back with the Revolutionary section of Jakobsleiter, the similarities will be very obvious.
Gurrelieder most definitely leads to those works and to others.
Indeed! The superfluous politicization of
Schoenberg aside, he did not write, later, in ways which at all "rejected" his earlier self. He always remained essentially a High Romantic.
Quote from: James on November 18, 2014, 02:54:23 PM
Gurrelieder (& Transfigured Night) bear the all-consuming influence of Wagner. Also a heavy Strauss influence. The tone-poem Pelleas und Melisande is Straussian (Strauss, of course was content to live off of Wagner's harmonic legacy, whereas Schoenberg surmised that it had been exhausted leading into new directions). One could almost say that without Wagner's work, Schoenberg wouldn't have turned out as he did. Schoenberg was a HUGE fan of Wagner. He hadn't really found his own voice in those earlier works yet. They aren't really representative.
See my above comments, as well as the below link to an analysis of
Pelleas und Melisande where the name "Strauss" cannot be found. To be sure,
Strauss had suggested the play to
Schoenberg, but upon hearing the finished product, remarked that
Schoenberg's only hope was a psychiatrist. Apparently
Strauss found the work not very Straussian.
http://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft5t1nb3gn&chunk.id=d0e7395&toc.id=&brand=ucpress (http://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft5t1nb3gn&chunk.id=d0e7395&toc.id=&brand=ucpress)
On the other hand,
Schoenberg himself thought very highly of
Brahms: note his essay
Brahms the Progressive. See, e.g.
http://www.schoenberg.at/library/index.php/publications/show/6544 (http://www.schoenberg.at/library/index.php/publications/show/6544)
And without
Wagner, all kinds of composers would have turned out quite differently!
Quote from: North Star on November 18, 2014, 08:57:26 AM
Indeed. If only conductors like Abbado, Boulez, Chailly, Craft, Del Mar, Gielen, Inbal, Jansons, Kegel, Kubelik, Levine, Mehta, Ozawa, Rattle, Salonen, Sinopoli, and Stokowski had recorded it. Oh, wait.. 8)
Zing! :D I love it! Good one, Karlo. 8)
Quote from: karlhenning on November 18, 2014, 03:51:29 PM
Indeed! The superfluous politicization of Schoenberg aside, he did not write, later, in ways which at all "rejected" his earlier self. He always remained essentially a High Romantic.
Can we focus on this a bit? "Romantic" is not a clear idea really, maybe Karl could expand on it a bit. And "High"? What's that about?
And Karl, do you think the 3rd quartet is romantic? Or the suite for piano? Or what about the late trio?
There's something called expressionism. I'm not sure what it is, but I don't think it's supposed to be the same as romanticism or high romanticism is it?
Quote from: karlhenning on November 18, 2014, 03:51:29 PM
Indeed! The superfluous politicization of Schoenberg aside, he did not write, later, in ways which at all "rejected" his earlier self. He always remained essentially a High Romantic.
Is this right: that Gurrelieder is consoling? And the later works are more disturbing? That's to say, after the 2nd quartet Schoenberg's vision of the world as expressed in his music is much less comfortable.
ode to napoleon <3
Quote from: James on November 19, 2014, 02:20:21 AMVery, very true. Even those who rejected him.
Sure. And the guy who broke wind influenced you, because you chose to leave the room.
Quote from: Mandryka on November 18, 2014, 09:43:36 PM
There's something called expressionism. I'm not sure what it is, but I don't think it's supposed to be the same as romanticism or high romanticism is it?
Well, in the sense that the Romantics believed in a sort of symbiosis between Word and Music, I think that Expressionism is not a break from, but one refinement of, Romanticism.
Still, there must be a musical Romanticism which applies to Absolute Music (or aren't the
Brahms clarinet sonatas Romantic?) So, yes, I think the
Op.30 Quartet (with its
Intermezzo movement!) quite Romantic.
And, like
Brahms,
Schoenberg not only wrote in a manner steeped in the Romantic, but made creative use of his inquiry into music history.
Quote from: karlhenning on November 19, 2014, 03:11:41 AM
Well, in the sense that the Romantics believed in a sort of symbiosis between Word and Music, I think that Expressionism is not a break from, but one refinement of, Romanticism.
Yes, this is why e.g.
Erwartung and
Die Glueckliche Hand are seen as "Expressionist" operas: in general,one can say that the conscious emotionalism of the Romantic era is now taken into darker areas of the unconscious by the Expressionists: one sees this in the German Expressionist paintings in the same era, with violent images and unusual colors attempting to evoke or describe those parts of the psyche.
Underrated:
Die Glueckliche Hand !
Quote from: Cato on November 19, 2014, 06:37:58 AM
Yes, this is why e.g. Erwartung and Die Glueckliche Hand are seen as "Expressionist" operas: in general,one can say that the conscious emotionalism of the Romantic era is now taken into darker areas of the unconscious by the Expressionists: one sees this in the German Expressionist paintings in the same era, with violent images and unusual colors attempting to evoke or describe those parts of the psyche.
Underrated: Die Glueckliche Hand !
Speaking of underrated
Schönberg and German Expressionist painting ;)
(http://eartripmagazine.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/001schoenbergredgaze1910.jpg?w=430)
Great example! You could use that for the opening of the Five Pieces for Orchestra!
Quote from: karlhenning on November 19, 2014, 03:11:41 AM
Well, in the sense that the Romantics believed in a sort of symbiosis between Word and Music, I think that Expressionism is not a break from, but one refinement of, Romanticism.
This is an area I know nothing about, I'd like to know more. This relation between words amd music, can you suggest something for me to read? I think one of J S Bach's most striking gifts is in expressing in music ideas which came out of liturgical texts and Lutherian exegesis.
If you can grab this at your library, the chapters on Pierrot, Die glückliche Hand & Erwartung are good and juicy.
[asin]B003GAN21U[/asin]
Part of MacDonald's discussion of Erwartung is how practically nothing repeats, and everything springs from the text. Which is what makes it so intense, and demanding, but Schoenberg pulls it off by sheer force of musical will.
Quote from: karlhenning on November 19, 2014, 08:41:23 AM
Part of MacDonald's discussion of Erwartung is how practically nothing repeats, and everything springs from the text. Which is what makes it so intense, and demanding, but Schoenberg pulls it off by sheer force of musical will.
I have ordered the book.
But what caught my atrention was your idea that a key aspect of romanticism is to do with a special text / music relationship.
Quote from: Mandryka on November 19, 2014, 12:56:47 PM
I have ordered the book.
But what caught my attention was your idea that a key aspect of romanticism is to do with a special text / music relationship.
The best example of this is
Wagner who wrote his own libretti/poems for his operas: one can assume that musical considerations may have guided the selection of certain words over others.
Also, things like
Schubert's Die Winterreise are certainly to be included here.
Of interest also is
Goethe's dislike of "durchkomponierte Lieder." (I have read somewhere of his complaint being used against
Schubert's setting of
Erlkönig.) He preferred the strophic style, but the "through-composed song," which elucidates the text without repetition (or not much, at least), might be considered part of the DNA of the tone-poem as developed by
Liszt and others.
The tone-poem certainly shows a very special text-to-music relationship!
Herzgewachse anyone?
Quote from: Dax on November 19, 2014, 02:45:33 PM
Herzgewachse anyone?
Yes, exquisite!
As with the
Weihnachtsmusik, perhaps any
Schoenberg score with harmonium is less frequently performed, and perforce falls beneath the general radar . . . .
Let alone a score with also (only) harp and celesta with a high soprano part with a long quiet top F.
Quote from: karlhenning on November 20, 2014, 05:44:20 AM
Yes, exquisite!
As with the Weihnachtsmusik, perhaps any Schoenberg score with harmonium is less frequently performed, and perforce falls beneath the general radar . . . .
A very long time ago, I went to a concert where, amongst other pieces, both
Weihnachtsmusik and
Herzgewachse were on the program (along with a miscellany of Webern and Berg). If I remember correctly, the encores were
Die Eiserne Brigade and Schoenberg's arrangement of
Funiculì, Funiculà, which is as good a definition of 'from the sublime to the ridiculous' as I think you'll get.
ok, so every work of Schoenberg's has now been mentioned???
Quote from: snyprrr on November 21, 2014, 06:29:41 AM
ok, so every work of Schoenberg's has now been mentioned???
Don't tell me you couldn't anticipate this outcome originally. ;)
It's just as snypsss always suspected!
Quote from: karlhenning on November 21, 2014, 06:38:18 AM
It's just as snypsss always suspected!
They're always telling me, Do you want to be 'right', or do you want to be 'happy'? :laugh:
Quote from: North Star on November 21, 2014, 06:33:17 AM
Don't tell me you couldn't anticipate this outcome originally. ;)
coffee on monitor clean-up :laugh: ??? :( :P
Quote from: snyprrr on November 21, 2014, 06:29:41 AM
ok, so every work of Schoenberg's has now been mentioned???
Naturally.
Quote from: snyprrr on November 21, 2014, 06:29:41 AM
ok, so every work of Schoenberg's has now been mentioned???
Apart from all the ones which nobody likes.
Quote from: Dax on November 21, 2014, 09:22:10 AM
Apart from all the ones which nobody likes.
You're just pushing people to mention the rest, now..
Indeed, you are the centre of gravity of your own solar system . . .
Quote from: Dax on November 21, 2014, 09:22:10 AM
Apart from all the ones which nobody likes.
I mentioned
Die eiserne Brigade.
Nicht zu vergessen: Die Brettl-Lieder
[asin]B00000412H[/asin]
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 17, 2014, 06:51:37 AM
Most overrated would probably be Pierrot Lunaire.
[Takes cover while Karl fetches Sarge's bazooka]
Given that Schoenberg more or less abandoned it, perhaps even he underrated it.
Well, I think you can make a good argument. We might, indeed, agree that
Stravinsky's famous encomium,
the solar plexus of 20th-c. music, was true in the sense of the listener's enthusiasm, but the first historical occasion of overrating the
Op.21.
As you know, I love the piece, but I wonder if (like the
Leningrad Symphony) it suffers a bit from its celebrity, both from a certain contrarian element in us seasoned listeners as a group, and from more people performing than are quite prepared to excel with it.
This is an interesting take,
Glenn St-Gould & friends luxuriating in a slower tempo than most:
http://www.youtube.com/v/MWXZz7QYrlI
I'll go with A Survivor of Warsaw. Narrated pieces typically get short shrift, but it's a fine work...
Quote from: Rons_talking on January 26, 2015, 04:08:37 AM
I'll go with A Survivor of Warsaw. Narrated pieces typically get short shrift, but it's a fine work...
Yes, a good choice!
Interesting comment about "narrated pieces" :
Aaron Copland's A Lincoln Portrait comes to mind. Has it been given short shrift because having a narrator is off-putting? I have no idea how often it is performed these days. I suspect not as often as in earlier decades.
I think the Lincoln Portrait is the exception. It's had such a glorious history of celebrity narrators; I do believe it's not fully appreciated for it's musical quality due to the narration. I know people who really dislike the piece due to its overt patriotic message. But in the context of when it was composed (WW2), and for its purpose, it seems a brilliant work to me.
Quote from: Rons_talking on January 26, 2015, 05:13:46 AM
I think the Lincoln Portrait is the exception. It's had such a glorious history of celebrity narrators; I do believe it's not fully appreciated for its musical quality due to the narration.
Right ... it's become something of a Celebrity Vehicle.
To your initial point (and exulting in the tangent),
Stravinsky's Perséphone!
Quote from: Rons_talking on January 26, 2015, 04:08:37 AM
I'll go with A Survivor of Warsaw. Narrated pieces typically get short shrift, but it's a fine work...
I like that one a lot, actually.
Quote from: karlhenning on January 26, 2015, 05:44:49 AM
Right ... it's become something of a Celebrity Vehicle.
To your initial point (and exulting in the tangent), Stravinsky's Persephone!
Persephone is the best example I can imagine! Great music. Some of Stravinsky's finest of the era. Yet the flow is interrupted by the narrative (IMO). That one really frustrates me...