This article has just appeared in The Australian newspaper today, having originally been published in The Spectator. Lebrecht goes on the rampage (much like Pip's sister/guardian wielding The Tickler in "Great Expectations"), once again, about the great orchestra. His bashing of musicians and institutions has defined him as the grand Poo-Bah, with his sarcastic fulminations and sanctimonious pronouncements. There's so much of the old-style class warrior about this man; the tired old tics of the chronically under-appreciated. Once again he's grinding the affirmative action ax in his diatribe about the 'closed shop' and 'old boys network' of the Vienna Philharmonic.
Nobody takes the annual Neujahrskonzert seriously - it's a bit of fluff and a tourism promotion, after all. But Lebrecht is having none of it, content instead to contemptuously invoke the breathless "how beautiful" from the 'dowagers' in the audience. This is the 21st Century, Norman, and the current crop of musicians have nothing whatever to do with Nazis. Barenboim is conveniently airbrushed out of the picture, even though he's a regular conductor of the orchestra and a Jew.
http://www.spectator.co.uk/arts/arts-feature/9395582/the-nazi-origins-of-the-vienna-phils-new-years-day-concert/#comments
The main problem is that N.L. raises important issues in this article and his usual "diatribes" (to use your own word) about the Vienna Phil. (how it is actually managed, how some excellent musicians from the Staatsoper are not "chosen", in particular when they are women or non white). But they are kind of overshadowed by these other claims about the history of the orchestra, which is making the whole argumentation inefficient. Even if this history has parts that were disclosed way too late, should still be better studied, and if some past decisions (medals, etc.) should be officially reversed.
Quote from: Discobolus on December 17, 2014, 05:31:59 PM
The main problem is that N.L. raises important issues in this article and his usual "diatribes" (to use your own word) about the Vienna Phil. (how it is actually managed, how some excellent musicians from the Staatsoper are not "chosen", in particular when they are women or non white). But they are kind of overshadowed by these other claims about the history of the orchestra, which is making the whole argumentation inefficient. Even if this history has parts that were disclosed way too late, should still be better studied, and if some past decisions (medals, etc.) should be officially reversed.
You know what, Discobolus, discrimination is actually practiced regularly in all sectors of society - not just music - along gender, sexual preference, political, marital status or religious lines; you name it. Some organizations are more subtle about it, that's all.
It's important to understand that, like the Berliners, the VPO is actually self-governing and so a decision to exclude women and non-whites (your words as well as Lebrechts) is made by the entire orchestra (which DOES contain female musicians) - and which is actually none of my business. What IS my business is that the orchestra performs at the very highest level to a paying audience.
Personally, it pleases me that the majority of the players are men!!! Please don't suggest to me that a female or Asian player of phenomenal virtuosity is going to be rejected by the Vienna Philharmonic simply because of gender and/or ethnicity. Ain't gonna happen.
You're probably too young to know about or have seen the hilarious sketch in the 1960's from Peter Cook and Dudley Moore about the man auditioning for the role of Tarzan. He (Moore) had only one leg and Peter Cook (the casting agent) didn't want to give the man the impression he was being discriminated against. The script went something like this:
"..Don't misunderstand me...yours is a fine leg....I've got nothing against the leg, but then neither have you. If we are looking for a one-legged Tarzan you'll surely get the role".
A little bit of humour goes such a long long way.
Quote from: Phrygian on December 17, 2014, 06:06:04 PM
It's important to understand that, like the Berliners, the VPO is actually self-governing and so a decision to exclude women and non-whites (your words as well as Lebrechts) is made by the entire orchestra (which DOES contain female musicians) - and which is actually none of my business. What IS my business is that the orchestra performs at the very highest level to a paying audience.
Personally, it pleases me that the majority of the players are men!!! Please don't suggest to me that a female or Asian player of phenomenal virtuosity is going to be rejected by the Vienna Philharmonic simply because of gender and/or ethnicity. Ain't gonna happen.
But it is our business (for all sorts of reasons). Otherwise, they still might be an all male group and a female would indeed be rejected out of hand (though they would never get that far). If we simply ignore what others do, claiming it's 'their business' or 'not my business'...well, the world would be a darker place. The same is true for some golf clubs/societies that have long excluded women for, gasp, being women. Stupid rule.
It neither pleases nor displeases me that they are men or women, but it would displease me if they excluded others based on gender, age, race, etc. Only then will you get an orchestra that plays to its highest level.
Quote from: Phrygian on December 17, 2014, 06:06:04 PM
You know what, Discobolus, discrimination is actually practiced regularly in all sectors of society - not just music - along gender, sexual preference, political, marital status or religious lines; you name it.
This does not make discrimination good. Discrimination is still bad.
Quote from: Phrygian on December 17, 2014, 06:06:04 PM
It's important to understand that, like the Berliners, the VPO is actually self-governing and so a decision to exclude women and non-whites (your words as well as Lebrechts) is made by the entire orchestra (which DOES contain female musicians) - and which is actually none of my business.
That's not fair. The USA includes black people, but the USA is still racist against black people. Saying the VPO is not sexist because the VPO contains women is just stupid. Do you expect that the female musicians in the VPO will control hiring decisions? The orchestra can still be very, very sexist, even if it contains both sexes.
Quote from: Phrygian on December 17, 2014, 06:06:04 PM
Personally, it pleases me that the majority of the players are men!!!
WHY? Why does this please you?? Why? Seriously. It would please me if every VPO member were an African pygmy from Congo, if they could play great music. Why does the sex matter to you??
Quote from: Phrygian on December 17, 2014, 06:06:04 PM
Please don't suggest to me that a female or Asian player of phenomenal virtuosity is going to be rejected by the Vienna Philharmonic simply because of gender and/or ethnicity. Ain't gonna happen.
Do you have evidence for this? Because we know the orchestra has a history of sexism and racism. You have the burden of proof here.
Quote from: Phrygian on December 17, 2014, 06:06:04 PM
You're probably too young to know about or have seen the hilarious sketch in the 1960's from Peter Cook and Dudley Moore about the man auditioning for the role of Tarzan. He (Moore) had only one leg and Peter Cook (the casting agent) didn't want to give the man the impression he was being discriminated against. The script went something like this:
What a horrible, false analogy. A one-legged person playing Tarzan is HUGELY different from a woman playing the violin. Are you saying that a woman is as bad at music as an amputee is at playing Tarzan? You can't possibly be saying that. You are a smart person. You understand that women can play music just as well, and better than, men can. So the Tarzan thing is totally irrelevant, right?
I'm somewhat disappointed NL chose to focus on the well-known awfulness of the Vienna Phil for this article—it's already a matter of public record and this uses up his quota of things to be right about for the next few years. If he chose to attack the classical music world for its hypocrisy in bashing Russia while toadying to the UAE and China instead that might have made a better stopped-clock moment. As it is I predict six more weeks of winter
Thanks to Brian for writing a well-considered reponse to an OP that deserved a riposte.
Quote from: amw on December 18, 2014, 12:41:55 AM
If he chose to attack the classical music world for its hypocrisy in bashing Russia while toadying to the UAE and China instead that might have made a better stopped-clock moment.
I'd understand this sentence better if "classical music world" was replaced by "western world" or "western mainstream media", but I have not seen that the "classical music world" has been particularly hypocritical here, other than being a part of western media. What are you referring to?
Quote from: The new erato on December 18, 2014, 01:11:40 AM
Thanks to Brian for writing a well-considered reponse to an OP that deserved a riposte.
I appreciate it too, though I still think it's about 10 years too late for anyone to make a dent in the entrenched, lazy, cynical right-wing bullshit GMG members have been spewing out on every topic other than classical music. (Not too dissimilar from what Norman Lebrecht spews out on the topic of classical music, for that matter.) May as well try to defend civil rights on Stormfront.
Quote from: Jo498 on December 18, 2014, 01:33:26 AM
I'd understand this sentence better if "classical music world" was replaced by "western world" or "western mainstream media", but I have not seen that the "classical music world" has been particularly hypocritical here, other than being a part of western media. What are you referring to?
You do have a point. I'm referring to how establishment classical music figures are in bed with regimes known to be corrupt and oppressive (such as China and the Gulf states) while denouncing other regimes on the alleged basis of their corruption and oppression (such as Russia and Venezuela), but this is true of a
lot of things, these days. Politicians, etc. Some people are good with the callouts on this kind of behaviour, particularly Pliable (http://www.overgrownpath.com/) (ex. a recent post called out Jordi Savall for refusing Spanish money while accepting UAE money... he regularly takes potshots at Lebrecht and his vested interests as well) and the pianist/teacher/activist Ian Pace.
Quote from: Brian on December 17, 2014, 09:52:54 PM
This does not make discrimination good. Discrimination is still bad.
That's not fair. The USA includes black people, but the USA is still racist against black people. Saying the VPO is not sexist because the VPO contains women is just stupid. Do you expect that the female musicians in the VPO will control hiring decisions? The orchestra can still be very, very sexist, even if it contains both sexes.
WHY? Why does this please you?? Why? Seriously. It would please me if every VPO member were an African pygmy from Congo, if they could play great music. Why does the sex matter to you??
Do you have evidence for this? Because we know the orchestra has a history of sexism and racism. You have the burden of proof here.
What a horrible, false analogy. A one-legged person playing Tarzan is HUGELY different from a woman playing the violin. Are you saying that a woman is as bad at music as an amputee is at playing Tarzan? You can't possibly be saying that. You are a smart person. You understand that women can play music just as well, and better than, men can. So the Tarzan thing is totally irrelevant, right?
Oh dear, a sense of humour badly needed. You missed the point COMPLETELY; it was about satirizing discrimination.
I don't feel like continuing a discussion with lefties who see the world through the prism of victimhood. This is what bores me about message-boarding; twenty somethings who have an ax to grind. The disgusting capitalist system and how it demeans and discriminates...bla bla bla bla ad nauseum. I've heard it all before when I was a teacher.
Be happy!! Lighten up. It's Christmas.
I'm 63 and definitely neither a leftie nor a victim (with a family income close to USD 400.000 I probably don't fall into your comfortable categorizations) . But you are welcome of course to imagine whatever you want if it makes you comfortable.
Quote from: The new erato on December 18, 2014, 02:09:26 AM
I'm 63 and definitely neither a leftie nor a victim (with a family income close to USD 400.000 I probably don't fall into your comfortable categorizations) . But you are welcome of course to imagine whatever you want if it makes you comfortable.
A fantasist too!! Delicious.
Meaning?
PS I admit that after the recent bashing of the NOK against the USD dollar an exact fgure might be closer to 350.000; but still enough not to leve me felling neither victimized nor prativcuarly leftish (as Norwegian politics go). Of course a Norwegian rightwinger is a bleeding heart liberal by your standards.
PS2: And of course close 40 % of the net amount is paid in taxes. I guess I am a leftie anyway as I find that OK, in exchange for free university education, free health services and a very substantial social security net.
Quote from: Phrygian on December 18, 2014, 02:04:38 AM
I don't feel like continuing a discussion
How unexpected.
Someone making an inflammatory OP, getting a few responses, then dropping some veiled insults and fucking off for a while? That has never happened before on the internet. Ever. I suggest we argue and call each other names for 100 pages or so until the moderators come in, lock the thread and ban everyone. It seems the best tactic really.
Thanks to those who continued with the simple arguments as an anwser to Phrygian's diatribe against... well, against what exactly already ? Norman Lebrecht ? Women ? Asians ? Leftists ? Communists ? People-who-don't-agree ?
Quote from: amw on December 18, 2014, 01:55:04 AM
I appreciate it too, though I still think it's about 10 years too late for anyone to make a dent in the entrenched, lazy, cynical right-wing bullshit GMG members have been spewing out on every topic other than classical music. (Not too dissimilar from what Norman Lebrecht spews out on the topic of classical music, for that matter.) May as well try to defend civil rights on Stormfront.
I'm not sure it is so catastrophic. There are a few very GMGers who happen to proudly show how conservative their ideas are. But what about the others ? I think there are more liberals than hardline rightists here, but most people are just too tired and uninterested to argue, or even (it's my case) feel bad for these poor guys who can't seem to find people agreeing with them in the modern world, except on an internet board ;)
Quote from: Phrygian on December 18, 2014, 02:04:38 AM
Oh dear, a sense of humour badly needed. You missed the point COMPLETELY; it was about satirizing discrimination.
I don't feel like continuing a discussion with lefties who see the world through the prism of victimhood. This is what bores me about message-boarding; twenty somethings who have an ax to grind. The disgusting capitalist system and how it demeans and discriminates...bla bla bla bla ad nauseum. I've heard it all before when I was a teacher.
Be happy!! Lighten up. It's Christmas.
Snypps, is that you?
Quote from: amw on December 18, 2014, 01:55:04 AM
I appreciate it too, though I still think it's about 10 years too late for anyone to make a dent in the entrenched, lazy, cynical right-wing bullshit GMG members have been spewing out on every topic other than classical music....May as well try to defend civil rights on Stormfront.
Are you saying GMG is a fascist cesspool? ;D I think you're confusing GMG with CMG, whose owner really is a right wing nut case. It's the reason I stopped posting there. Of course there are conservatives here too (some thoughtful, some not so thoughtful) but they are not a majority and have never galloped freely over the forum without opposition. This thread is a case in point: Phrygian vs Brian, Neal, Erato, Disco, yourself.
A few years ago many of us took a political spectrum test which graphed the individual results. They were what you'd expect of any random group of people: spread about evenly from the right to the left. (Edit: Disco found the original thread. Now that I've seen it again, refreshed my memory, I can see that most participants are left of center.) I'm L & L....even though I'm not a twentysomething with an ax to grind ;)
(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/may2014/pcgraphpng.php.jpg)
Sarge
Quote from: Discobolus on December 18, 2014, 02:54:08 AMI think there are more liberals than hardline rightists here, but most people are just too tired and uninterested to argue
In my case, at my age, I simply see how useless it is trying to debate the partisan mind. Partisan minds have calcified; they can't be changed. It's a quixotic mission and a waste of what little time I have left. Supporting, making excuses for, the WP's disgusting hiring practices (racism, bigotry, misogyny) in the name of tradition and capitalist freedom is wrong but I'm not going to debate Phrygian. I'm happy to see Brian take up the sword though.
Sarge
Thanks Sarge, I found the topic about this test. :)
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 18, 2014, 06:14:50 AM
In my case, at my age, I simply see how useless it is trying to debate the partisan mind. Partisan minds have calcified; they can't be changed. It's a quixotic mission and a waste of what little time I have left. Supporting, making excuses for, the WP's disgusting hiring practices (racism, bigotry, misogyny) in the name of tradition and capitalist freedom is wrong but I'm not going to debate Phrygian. I'm happy to see Brian take up the sword though.
Sarge
Wise man Sarge!
Quote from: The new erato on December 18, 2014, 01:11:40 AM
Thanks to Brian for writing a well-considered reponse to an OP that deserved a riposte.
Just checking, are you being sincere? I was drunk when I wrote that, and I don't remember what I said. Kinda worried :-X
Guess I'll go read everything over again now...
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 18, 2014, 06:14:50 AMI'm happy to see Brian take up the sword though.
Yeah, that wasn't so bad after all. I guess I should drunk-post more often, especially if it scares away the cretins who think that equal opportunities for all human beings is a position limited to ax-grinding anti-capitalist victims.
Even while drunk you easily surpass the usual Internet standard.
Use your power only for good, Brian.
Quote from: Brian on December 18, 2014, 07:42:45 AM
Yeah, that wasn't so bad after all. I guess I should drunk-post more often, especially if it scares away the cretins who think that equal opportunities for all human beings is a position limited to ax-grinding anti-capitalist victims.
Thank you.
I'm here for the music, I can only hope everyone else is as well. If Phrygian wants to debase himself/herself, so be it. I'll happily let them do it. :) In the meantime, I'll be listening to some Bartok.
Here's a chance to piss off everyone!
Of course Phrygian's gladness that the orchestra is almost all male is dim-witted. So is his claim no group with women in it can discriminate against women. But that doesn't mean everything he said is wrong, no matter how satisfying it may feel to think so. As for hiring exceptional players for example, the orchestra now uses blind auditions. That's a big change, and it bolsters Phrygian's claim, which Brian doubted. They have revoked some odious past awards. So another of Phrygian's points is also bolstered: it isn't fair to keep hammering them with old, now shed, shameful practices. It is also counter-productive. We want organizations with such histories to reform; that means we should acknowledge such efforts, not go on grandstanding like Lebrecht.
Disagreement with Phrygian does not necessarily constitute endorsement of Lebrecht.
The VPO started blind auditions in 1997. Half of the membership has turned over since then, but the percentage of women is still miniscule. I can't help but wonder whether their auditions are truly blind.
Quote from: Pat B on December 18, 2014, 11:12:14 PM
Disagreement with Phrygian does not necessarily constitute endorsement of Lebrecht.
The VPO started blind auditions in 1997. Half of the membership has turned over since then, but the percentage of women is still miniscule. I can't help but wonder whether their auditions are truly blind.
Depends upon whether it is the judges or the players that are blindfolded I guess.
The auditions are generally organized with three rounds. They are blind in the first two, but in the third round the screen is removed. So, no, the auditions of the Wiener Philharmoniker are not really blind (unlike how they are organized in most big orchestras in Europe or in the States today).
Audiatur et altera pars.
http://www.osborne-conant.org/wdr.htm (http://www.osborne-conant.org/wdr.htm)
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 18, 2014, 06:49:46 PMhimself/herself, so be it.
Quote from: Ken B on December 18, 2014, 08:46:49 PMSo is his her claim
Phrygian is a woman. She's mentioned a husband; mentioned being married for 40 years. And her profile says female.
Sarge
Quote from: Ken B on December 18, 2014, 08:46:49 PM
Here's a chance to piss off everyone!
I broadly agree with you, but should note that while their official policy might be blind auditions—and it's not exactly, the last round is non-blind—(a) attitudes among members of the orchestra are still very negative towards women and nonwhites, (b) everyone knows it, and (c) those attitudes aren't going to go away quickly. Also Lebrecht is a sleazeball.
Quote from: amw on December 19, 2014, 03:19:47 AM
a) attitudes among members of the orchestra are still very negative towards women and nonwhites, (b) everyone knows it, and (c) those attitudes aren't going to go away quickly.
My turn to piss off everyone. :D
All the above are true, so what? They specifically and openly want to preserve their male, white, Central European tradition, so what? They are not a governmental company, they are not a public company, they can establish whatever rules they want for their membership. If you are so angry at them, then stop buying their recordings and stop attending their concerts --- but no, you wouldn't do that because you want quality in the music you listen. ;D
Besides, to make such a fuss about one single orchestra, when all across Europe and the world there are plenty of orchestras open to women and non-whites, is a little exagerated. ;D
What bothers me is that there seem to be something very Austrian about that attitude. Not that I have anything against Austria, a lovely country with tons og friendly people which I have visited on numerous occasions, but still. The past rears some ugly shadows.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 19, 2014, 03:09:33 AM
Phrygian is a woman. She's mentioned a husband; mentioned being married for 40 years. And her profile says female.
Sarge
Is it sexist that I would have been more polite if I had known this? Honest question.
Quote from: The new erato on December 19, 2014, 04:13:02 AM
What bothers me is that there seem to be something very Austrian about that attitude.
It is, but then again so what? I wouldn't want to live in a uniform world where there will be no more Austrian-ness, Norway-ness or Romanian-ness but only a dull Egalitarian-ness. The more diverse the cultures, the better for me. :D
Quote from: Brian on December 19, 2014, 04:39:49 AM
Is it sexist that I would have been more polite if I had known this? Honest question.
Of course not. Being polite to women is just basic education.
Quote from: Brian on December 19, 2014, 04:39:49 AM
Is it sexist that I would have been more polite if I had known this? Honest question.
Yes. Honest answer. Double standard, "soft bigotry of low expectations".
Quote from: Brian on December 19, 2014, 04:39:49 AM
Is it sexist that I would have been more polite if I had known this? Honest question.
No. If she had been a "he," her remarks might justifiably have been chalked up as simple sexism; but since she is a she, it seems likely that there's something more complex going on. Besides, some of us were trained to be polite to women. :)
Somebody has alerted me to the ramblings taking place on this thread, as I haven't been reading them. Hilarious!! You've all made my day and I've been reading the comments with great amusement. Talk about creating a hornet's nest..... Funny.
I must say the only person who makes real sense is Florestan. Yes, the detestable "egalitarian one-ness". Stop buying the recordings if you don't agree with the Vienna Philharmonic's employment terms. I can't wait to see them in the coming weeks and I'm fortunate enough to be able to afford to live overseas for extended periods and go to as many concerts as I like.
It must be appalling to some of the regular posters to hear from such a lippy woman as Phrygian. (Don't worry; others have tried and failed to bring me under control too.) Ironic isn't it; lots more women needed in the VPO but not on the messageboards, it seems. The delectable double standards of the masses. (Not forgetting the unctious tones by some others.)
And I won't sit idly by and tolerate the slanderous insults directed towards the current owner of CMG music messageboard. It is, by far, the best board of its kind on the net and with the most consistently intelligent, knowledgeable and mature contributors. That's not to say it's devoid of trolls - it isn't - but it's the internet after all. And there are some wonderful people here too, on GMG. I adore lively and intelligent discussion and when I come across some of this I'll let you all know!!!
Have a wonderful Christmas. As Basil Fawlty says, ".....well, get on with your meals"!!
Quote from: Phrygian on December 20, 2014, 11:22:47 AM
It must be appalling to some of the regular posters to hear from such a lippy woman as Phrygian. (Don't worry; others have tried and failed to bring me under control too.) Ironic isn't it; lots more women needed in the VPO but not on the messageboards, it seems. The delectable double standards of the masses. (Not forgetting the unctious tones by some others.)
Can somebody remind me who's playing the victim?
Quote from: Florestan on December 19, 2014, 04:08:56 AM
All the above are true, so what? They specifically and openly want to preserve their male, white, Central European tradition, so what? They are not a governmental company, they are not a public company, they can establish whatever rules they want for their membership.
You call them members, I call them employees. As far as I'm concerned, every potential employee has the right to be judged on talent and accomplishment without any weight being given to crap notions such as gender, race, etc. Of course, I am opposed to affirmative action.
Quote from: Florestan on December 19, 2014, 04:08:56 AM
All the above are true, so what? They specifically and openly want to preserve their male, white, Central European tradition, so what?
Well I personally find that tradition to be not worth preserving. It has nothing to do with their stated mission of artistic quality and instead represents a supremacist, reactionary sort of view that I find dangerous. Not every tradition deserves equal consideration.
Quote
They are not a governmental company, they are not a public company, they can establish whatever rules they want for their membership.
I don't see this as a particularly valid view either. Private citizens should be held to the same standards as the state. The state is not infallible, it's just another group of private citizens.
The Vienna Phil is a corporation, not a social club. It has employees, not 'members'. It takes money from members of the public in order to fund its operations. I see no reason why it should be held to a different standard than the government.
(The VPO also has close ties to the Austrian government, which partially funds it and promotes it heavily.)
Quote
If you are so angry at them, then stop buying their recordings and stop attending their concerts --- but no, you wouldn't do that because you want quality in the music you listen. ;D
I don't think the Vienna Phil is significantly better than the majority of other top-tier orchestras in Europe and America, actually, though they are undoubtedly very good.
Quote
Besides, to make such a fuss about one single orchestra, when all across Europe and the world there are plenty of orchestras open to women and non-whites, is a little exagerated. ;D
That single orchestra acts like it's the standard-bearer of Western culture, and many people believe in it. I would say the protests etc. are pretty important for people who don't think the most visible representative of classical music should display such attitudes.
Quote from: Brian on December 19, 2014, 04:39:49 AM
Is it sexist that I would have been more polite if I had known this? Honest question.
Yes. Phrygian's gender does not make her weak and soft and thus requiring extra-special treatment, sorry.
Quote from: Discobolus on December 18, 2014, 02:54:08 AM
I'm not sure it is so catastrophic. There are a few very GMGers who happen to proudly show how conservative their ideas are. But what about the others ? I think there are more liberals than hardline rightists here, but most people are just too tired and uninterested to argue, or even (it's my case) feel bad for these poor guys who can't seem to find people agreeing with them in the modern world, except on an internet board ;)
Quite possible. Maybe attitudes (as distinct from political views) are less conservative than I've been led to think. But I feel like that 'tired and uninterested' attitude has calcified into a sneering distaste for anyone who dares express strong opinions about anything. Thus rather than meeting people like Josquin des Prez with negation they're just given a patronising pat on the head or called a few names. It doesn't give the impression that contrasting views exist, particularly when people just pile on with the patronising remarks (which, I realise, has also happened on this thread—probably should have read the whole thing before responding to the weird monarchist guy).
'Course that test also put me way in the bottom left so maybe I really am so extreme that you all look like fascists from where I am. I'm more inclined to blame that on the test being shit though. (Actual political orientation: mostly Green, sometimes Labour or Mana [no Internet Party please], never National.)
Quote from: amw on December 20, 2014, 02:13:05 PM
I don't see this as a particularly valid view either. Private citizens should be held to the same standards as the state. The state is not infallible, it's just another group of private citizens.
Right. Let's ban the churches, synagogues, temples, and mosques then. The government should not promote religion after all.
One reason we hold the state to different standards, is that the state has the power to compel anyone. Private institutions and citizens do not.
Quote from: amw on December 20, 2014, 02:13:05 PM
I don't see this as a particularly valid view either. Private citizens should be held to the same standards as the state.
The state is not infallible, it's just another group of private citizens.
You really ought to give some thought to that idea; it is amazing, even to me who views you as a righty... :D
8)
Quote from: Ken B on December 20, 2014, 02:35:18 PM
Right. Let's ban the churches, synagogues, temples, and mosques then.
I know you think you're setting up a strawman here. But I would say that if a religious doctrine professes the same kind of segregation/exclusion practiced by the Vienna Phil, or something worse, the religious doctrine should be changed. I don't really believe in 'banning' things but I wouldn't see such a doctrine as deserving of consideration as a religious belief.
Quote
One reason we hold the state to different standards, is that the state has the power to compel anyone.
Should the state have that power? Legit discussion question. I would say no.
Private institutions do have the power to compel anyone within their particular jurisdiction. I imagine the Vienna Phil has the power to bar those who disobey its rules (e.g. trying to get in without a ticket, not wearing clothes, being extremely drunk etc) from accessing its services.
The state has similar powers, with its jurisdiction extending to every individual who's taken citizenship and every organisation that's registered with it. The only difference is that the state does not offer any alternatives for those who don't agree with its policies, whereas the Vienna Phil does offer you the alternative of
not listening to them, or of buying their CDs but not going to their concerts if you disagree with their requirement that concert-goers wear clothing but otherwise support them, etc, etc.
I don't think the state should have a
monopoly on anything. It's just another group of private individuals after all.
Quote from: amw on December 20, 2014, 03:07:27 PM
I know you think you're setting up a strawman here. But I would say that if a religious doctrine professes the same kind of segregation/exclusion practiced by the Vienna Phil, or something worse, the religious doctrine should be changed. I don't really believe in 'banning' things but I wouldn't see such a doctrine as deserving of consideration as a religious belief.
Should the state have that power? Legit discussion question. I would say no.
Private institutions do have the power to compel anyone within their particular jurisdiction. I imagine the Vienna Phil has the power to bar those who disobey its rules (e.g. trying to get in without a ticket, not wearing clothes, being extremely drunk etc) from accessing its services.
The state has similar powers, with its jurisdiction extending to every individual who's taken citizenship and every organisation that's registered with it. The only difference is that the state does not offer any alternatives for those who don't agree with its policies, whereas the Vienna Phil does offer you the alternative of not listening to them, or of buying their CDs but not going to their concerts if you disagree with their requirement that concert-goers wear clothing but otherwise support them, etc, etc.
I don't think the state should have a monopoly on anything. It's just another group of private individuals after all.
I'm not setting up a strawman. I am pushing the example to an absurdity (which I do not think you actually endorse) to show that appealing sounding arguments like
we should hold people to the same standards don't actually work. People, groups, and governments are all different beasts.
I do think the government should have a monopoly on law for example. But discussion boards like this really are not good places for the debate.
Tiresome. How very tiresome. How very, very tiresome. How (snore....)...
Quote from: amw on December 20, 2014, 02:29:08 PM
Quite possible. Maybe attitudes (as distinct from political views) are less conservative than I've been led to think. But I feel like that 'tired and uninterested' attitude has calcified into a sneering distaste for anyone who dares express strong opinions about anything. Thus rather than meeting people like Josquin des Prez with negation they're just given a patronising pat on the head or called a few names.
Such as
Quote from: amw on December 20, 2014, 02:29:08 PMthe weird monarchist guy
, right?
Quote from: amw on December 20, 2014, 02:13:05 PM
Well I personally find that tradition to be not worth preserving. It has nothing to do with their stated mission of artistic quality and instead represents a supremacist, reactionary sort of view that I find dangerous. Not every tradition deserves equal consideration.
I'm fine with that. My only problem is that I can't remember when was the last time the Wiener Philharmoniker, the Austrian government or the democratically elected representatives of the Austrian people asked for your advice on the matter.
QuoteI don't see this as a particularly valid view either. Private citizens should be held to the same standards as the state. The state is not infallible, it's just another group of private citizens.
Gurn and
Ken replied to this already and I have nothing more to add to their posts.
QuoteThe Vienna Phil is a corporation, not a social club. It has employees, not 'members'. It takes money from members of the public in order to fund its operations. I see no reason why it should be held to a different standard than the government.
I agree. The members of Wiener Philharmoniker should be treated just as any member of the Austrian government should they steal, murder, rape or break the law in whatever way. I'm pretty sure that's exactly what happens, if case be.
Quote
(The VPO also has close ties to the Austrian government, which partially funds it and promotes it heavily.)
Then send the Austrian government a petition of grievances against WPO.
QuoteI don't think the Vienna Phil is significantly better than the majority of other top-tier orchestras in Europe and America, actually, though they are undoubtedly very good.
Nor did I say it is.
QuoteThat single orchestra acts like it's the standard-bearer of Western culture
No, they don't. They only say they inherit and preserve the Austrian-Central European tradition of music-making. Whether that is true or not is of course debatable, but they are far from claiming their exclusivity for the whole Western culture.
Quote, and many people believe in it.
How stupid of them...
QuoteI would say the protests etc. are pretty important for people who don't think the most visible representative of classical music should display such attitudes.
I have nothing against any sort of peaceful protest. It's the idea that the protests should have any bearing on the self-managment of the WPO that I find puzzling.
As for my monarchism, had you cared to read my relevant posts you'd have learned that I didn't advocate monarchy in abstracto, but specifically the Romanian constitutional monarchy, for several reasons not the least of which have to do with democratic rule and constitutional order, constantly and brutally trampled under the feet of the Soviets and their puppets The Communist Party of Romania between 1944 and 1947. FYI, the Romanian constitutional monarchy was proclaimed in 1866 following a nationwide referendum approval and the Constitution adopted then was changed in 1923 following another nationwide referendum approval. The 1947 overthrowing of the constitutional monarchy was not subjected to any kind of referendum and the king was forced to abdicate at the point of a gun. Now, if appreciation of, and support for, an institution which was inextricably linked with the modernization and progress of the Romanian state and people and which was widely supported, and twice plebiscited, by that same people, looks weird to you, it's your problem, not mine.
Quote from: Florestan on December 21, 2014, 05:47:10 AM
My only problem is that I can't remember when was the last time the Wiener Philharmoniker, the Austrian government or the democratically elected representatives of the Austrian people asked for your advice on the matter.
What? The whole purpose of this thread is for us to express our opinions. Are you saying that we should not do so?
Quote from: Brian on December 21, 2014, 06:12:24 AM
What? The whole purpose of this thread is for us to express our opinions. Are you saying that we should not do so?
Oh, of course we should, by all means. I am all for the unrestricted freedom of expressing one's own opinions. But some of us seem to imply that their opinions are not merely opinions, but advices, if not orders, that should be taken into account, or attended to, by institutions and people who completely ignore our very existence and couldn't care less about it --- and this I find odd. That is all. :)
Florestan, speaking as a republican I am shocked you could defend monarchy. That seems so irrational that I simply cannot comprehend it. Monarchy destroys whatever it touches. Are you really going to claim that countries like Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Belgium, Canada, or Japan have better governance than the United States, Mexico, Egypt, or Russia?
Quote from: Ken B on December 21, 2014, 09:32:39 AM
Florestan, speaking as a republican I am shocked you could defend monarchy. That seems so irrational that I simply cannot comprehend it. Monarchy destroys whatever it touches. Are you really going to claim that countries like Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Belgium, Canada, or Japan have better governance than the United States, Mexico, Egypt, or Russia?
;D ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: Pat B on December 20, 2014, 11:51:37 AM
Can somebody remind me who's playing the victim?
Are you asking about the new recording of Telemann's
Concerto for Victim and Orchestra? Sarah Palin.
Quote from: Ken B on December 21, 2014, 09:32:39 AM
Florestan, speaking as a republican I am shocked you could defend monarchy. That seems so irrational that I simply cannot comprehend it. Monarchy destroys whatever it touches. Are you really going to claim that countries like Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Belgiumthe Netherlands, Canada, or Japan have better governance than the United States, Mexico, Egypt, or Russia?
Fixed.
Quote from: Ken B on December 21, 2014, 09:32:39 AM
Florestan, speaking as a republican I am shocked you could defend monarchy. That seems so irrational that I simply cannot comprehend it. Monarchy destroys whatever it touches. Are you really going to claim that countries like Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Belgium, Canada, or Japan have better governance than the United States, Mexico, Egypt, or Russia?
If he wouldn't, I would. Virtual no-brainer! 0:)
8)
Quote from: Ken B on December 21, 2014, 09:32:39 AM
Florestan, speaking as a republican I am shocked you could defend monarchy. That seems so irrational that I simply cannot comprehend it. Monarchy destroys whatever it touches. Are you really going to claim that countries like Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Belgium, Canada, or Japan have better governance than the United States, Mexico, Egypt, or Russia?
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: Florestan on December 21, 2014, 10:41:00 AM
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
To quote
Mel Gibson's last word in
Braveheart: "FREEEEDOM!" 0:)
If there is vestigial sexism in the Vienna Philharmonic's hiring practices, it is not exclusively a Nazi trait, so I think we can lay the Nazi ghost to rest, at least for this thread.
It would be lovely, though, if the governing directors of the orchestra (whoever they be) could find it in their hearts to practice a little affirmative action, at least until the male-to-female ratio is a little closer to parity. If they can't, though, there's not much we as mere music fans can do about it. They are, after all, an independent organization (however much the Austrian government supports them). The question then becomes, Can we live with this vestigial sexism? They really are one of the best orchestras in the world, and only the New York Philharmonic has been in existence in anything like its present form for as long as the WP.
Am I talking sense? If it were a minor orchestra, fans would think nothing of simply not buying their recordings--but it is the Vienna Philharmonic...
This interview/transcription linked above is almost 20 years old or so, but I doubt than ANY major orchestra (like Berlin, Vienna, Concertgebouw, Chicago etc.) is even now anywhere close to gender parity.
The guys in the interview make some very weak points (male bonding, dirty jokes), but although they seem somewhat at a loss to express it, they apparently feel rather strongly about the advantages of an "all-male club".
One could imagine that men do have the same advantages here as in other highly competitive fields. But here the data don't fit all that well if we take star soloists and singers into account where women might even have an edge.
Quote from: Jo498 on December 21, 2014, 11:45:10 PM
This interview/transcription linked above is almost 20 years old or so, but I doubt than ANY major orchestra (like Berlin, Vienna, Concertgebouw, Chicago etc.) is even now anywhere close to gender parity.
In which case they avoid half the talent in the world.
The point is rather that all the orchestras but the Vienna Phil have, to my knowledge, not officially restrictive gender policies and have had female players for several decades. Still, as pointed out in the interview, the differences to the restrictive Vienna Phil are nowhere as significant as one would imagine. Not close to 50% female, most females in tutti violins/violas, of course harp, some woodwind. Of course there are quite a few by now famous femals brass players (like Neunecker or Balsom). But the very fact that these seem some kind of sensation (other than femals flutists) shows the gap.
Now one answer is that the Vienna Phil are not really worse, but they are at least honest and open about it whereas everywhere else the same prejudices and mechanisms are in power, but are officially denied.
Another explanation is that women naturally have disadvantages in highly competitive fields, more or less "by nature".
But going even further to the "top", that is from the best orchestras to the best soloists, we do not have a dearth of women. I didn't count, but by gut feeling there are probably a few more female top star violinists than male ones, nowadays, and sigificantly more than 50 years ago (although there were already quite a few female star pianists, violinists etc. when most orchestras were almost exclusively male).
So apparently the gender prejudice does work differently here. Or what gives? I do not know, but one should beware of the all to simple answers.
37% female in the Oslo Philharmonic, most of the females in the strings section (except for the double bass where they are outnumbered 9 to 0, obviously for physical reasons I guess). Also heavily outnumbered in the brass department (except for one trombonist). There obviously are physical reasons why women don't pick up (!) the double bass and larger brass.
37% is probably closer to parity than most other big orchestras. It may be that in string-dominated chamber and baroque ensembles women fare even better. So I guess there has been some change since the interview took place.
In Germany, there are 30% of women in orchestras, on average. But you have to consider that an evolution in hiring takes time to be seen in the whole orchestra. Actually, women are just 50% of the personnel among 25-30 y.o. musicians (http://www.lalettredumusicien.fr/s/articles/2878_209_les-femmes-bientot-majoritaires-dans-les-orchestres-allemands).
But the sexism at the Berlin Philharmonic should not be forgotten, and things have not changed much there either. No blind auditions. Actually, there were 17% women among its members in 2007, now only 14%.
Quote from: Jo498 on December 22, 2014, 12:52:22 AM
But going even further to the "top", that is from the best orchestras to the best soloists, we do not have a dearth of women.
These days, the top rank of soloists tends to be chosen more for visual than auditory impact. That applies to both men and women by the way. The recent 'evening out' at the top is not because things have gotten better for women but because things have gotten worse for men (you can't be a star and look like David Oistrakh anymore).
I might believe the top is unbiased when people of any sex who are fat, ugly, old, disabled, autistic, schizophrenic, trans*/gender-variant etc—or possess any other features widely regarded as undesirable—can become a star soloist purely on the basis of artistic ability. (Obviously that's unlikely to happen, if any of those groups [or any other groups of 'undesirables' that might appear in future] gains cultural clout players who meet those characteristics will be promoted in the name of diversity, while leaving the basic 'problem' unaddressed.)
Quote from: The new erato on December 22, 2014, 01:00:43 AMThere obviously are physical reasons why women don't pick up (!) the double bass and larger brass.
This also presumably explains why there are so few female harpists.
(Actually that's another weird thing, whose decision was it to gender certain instruments? Like, orchestral musicians seem to think the flute is a 'feminine' instrument and only want women and really camp guys to play it. Male harpists are considered to be nonexistent, women can play any percussion instrument except the timpani... It's frankly bizarre.)
Also Florestan is not just a weird monarchist, he's a ULTRA weird DOUBLE monarchist. So there!
Quote from: amw on December 22, 2014, 02:17:09 AM
This also presumably explains why there are no female harpists.
Well, you don't sit with the harp in your lap, or trudge it around in a case like a double bass.
Quote from: The new erato on December 22, 2014, 02:21:48 AM
Well, you don't sit with the harp in your lap, or trudge it around in a case like a double bass.
Harps do get trundled around as well, and are hella inconvenient to do so with. They also don't weigh very much. Nor do double basses or tubas. (Actually the only physical thing I could see possibly discouraging women from playing certain instruments is the massive lung capacity required for tuba and trombone, which might be beyond the average female at first. Double bass wouldn't be a problem unless you were really tiny, I know a few female bassists and they're generally fine—and as with other string instruments they do make 1/2 sizes etc. I once saw a 10 year old playing bass in a youth orchestra. It was adorable)
What's funny is that this image of the harp being an instrument for women seems quite recent, not older than the 1950s-60s I'd say. In the times of Hasselmans, Tournier, Salzedo, it was even quite a noble instrument for men, one of the main instruments taught at the Conservatoire de Paris. In the famous French comedy La grande vadrouille, there's a scene in which De Funès hides an English parachutist from the Germans in his lodge of the Opéra, and he puts him at the harp as if he was giving him a lesson. Actually, harpists becoming conductors were not rare. Salzedo is an example, and Jean-Jacques Werner is another: conductor and professor of conducting at the CNSM for a few years, he was a harpist at first.
Quote from: amw on December 22, 2014, 02:17:09 AM
Also Florestan is not just a weird monarchist, he's a ULTRA weird DOUBLE monarchist. So there!
Thanks for providing my new signature line. I'll proudly wear it as badge of honor.
The funniest thing in this whole kerfuffle, though, is that precisely those who claptrap all day long about diversity, tolerance and reason are also the most willing to impose their values on everybody else, as well as the most likely to reply to the arguments of their opponents by calling them names. :D
This might seem a paradox but it is not, because their verbiage is only a cover-up for their yearning for sameness. They feel uncomfortable and insecure in a world full of different people with different worldviews and different values; their innermost yearning is for a world in which everybody would think, talk and behave exactly the same way --- incidentally, exactly the way they think, talk and behave. Unfortunately for them, this is not going to happen, because life is larger than ideology.
So there! ;D
Just to refresh everybody's memory on a good old GMG tradition:: let us play the ball, and not the man - whether openly or covertly.
On topic: what surprises me most it the assumption that hiring "native" Austrians, or even just the male variety, would be necessary to preserve the VPO's orchestral tradition. This seems to me questionable. Wouldn't any newcomer have to adopt to the style and ways of the orchestra? And isn't any tradition subjected to gradual change over time? As historical recordings tell us: no orchestral tradition is carved into stone.
Q
Quote from: Florestan on December 22, 2014, 03:16:59 AM
The funniest thing in this whole kerfuffle, though, is that precisely those who claptrap all day long about diversity, tolerance and reason are also the most willing to impose their values on everybody else,
But this will be the case regardless of who 'wins'. We either value openness/tolerance or we value prejudice/closedness. Of course, you can change the wording to shift around the tone and degree, but the result is still the same.
By the way, I don't understand those who say the Vienna O is too good to stop buying their music or going to their concerts. They are one of dozens of excellent orchestras. We could easily stop buying their product and replace it with others. Even for those who live in Vienna, there are plenty of quality alternate choices.
Quote from: Que on December 22, 2014, 03:35:06 AM
Wouldn't any newcomer have to adopt to the style and ways of the orchestra?
That is actually a prerequisite:
Quote from: WikipediaThe members of the orchestra are chosen from the orchestra of the Vienna State Opera. This process is a long one, with each musician having to prove his or her capability for a minimum of three years' playing for the opera and ballet. Once this is achieved the musician can then ask the board of the Vienna Philharmonic to consider an application for a position in the orchestra.
Now that I think of it, here is another target for the affirmative-action crusaders: The Vienna State Opera orchestra. Boy, looks like Vienna is indeed a hotbed of sexism and misogynism. One wonders how come that there are that many women still living in the city. ;D
Quote
And isn't any tradition subjected to gradual change over time?
Absolutely --- and this is exactly what happened in the case of WPO: gradually, women have made their appearance in the orchestra and the trend is probably going to accelerate as younger generations of male musicians, more sensitive to the charms and musical profficiency of their female counterparts will replace the older, more conservative members of the orchestra. When a critical mass of WPO members will share such views, then the self-management will work wonders and the wildest dreams of
amw will be exceeded. We might even see a female concertmaster, or a lady playing tuba.
QuoteAs historical recordings tell us: no orchestral tradition is carved into stone.
Fixed. :)
Quote from: mc ukrneal on December 22, 2014, 03:42:28 AM
But this will be the case regardless of who 'wins'. We either value openness/tolerance or we value prejudice/closedness.
Of course, but that was precisely my point: preaching openness while in the same time wanting everybody to think and act exactly the same way is at best self-deluding and at worst hypocritical. ;D
Quote
By the way, I don't understand those who say the Vienna O is too good to stop buying their music or going to their concerts. They are one of dozens of excellent orchestras. We could easily stop buying their product and replace it with others. Even for those who live in Vienna, there are plenty of quality alternate choices.
That's a very good point (not least because I made it myself earlier :P ). You don't approve of WPO's practices? Okay, stop buying their recordings and attending their concerts. It's that simple. :)
Quote from: Florestan on December 22, 2014, 03:16:59 AM
The funniest thing in this whole kerfuffle, though, is that precisely those who claptrap all day long about diversity, tolerance and reason are also the most willing to impose their values on everybody else, as well as the most likely to reply to the arguments of their opponents by calling them names. :D
This might seem a paradox but it is not, because their verbiage is only a cover-up for their yearning for sameness. They feel uncomfortable and insecure in a world full of different people with different worldviews and different values; their innermost yearning is for a world in which everybody would think, talk and behave exactly the same way --- incidentally, exactly the way they think, talk and behave. Unfortunately for them, this is not going to happen, because life is larger than ideology.
So there! ;D
Amen Brother!
I am reminded of the 1960's and the "Hippies," who proclaimed non-conformism and being different for the sake of being different...and they ended up looking, acting, protesting, and smelling the same! "Non-conformist conformity."
Steve Martin satirized this in the 1970's:
https://www.youtube.com/v/oTwV3vG73cU
Quote from: Cato on December 22, 2014, 04:02:19 AM
Amen Brother!
I am reminded of the 1960's and the "Hippies," who proclaimed non-conformism and being different for the sake of being different...and they ended up looking, acting, protesting, and smelling the same! "Non-conformist conformity."
Steve Martin satirized this in the 1970's:
https://www.youtube.com/v/oTwV3vG73cU
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: mc ukrneal on December 22, 2014, 03:42:28 AM
We could easily stop buying their product and replace it with others. Even for those who live in Vienna, there are plenty of quality alternate choices.
Some nice starters:
Concentus musicus Wein
Haydn Sinfonietta Wien
Concilium musicum Wein
Wiener Akademie
Ars Antiqua Austria
and I could go on... :)
8)
Neal
QuoteBut this will be the case regardless of who 'wins'. We either value openness/tolerance or we value prejudice/closedness.
Without taking sides let me explain why I think you are missing what Phrygian, Florestan, Cato (?) are saying. Here is what I believe they are saying, rephrased:
Your dichotomy is false. You can also value
leaving other people alone or
respecting their choices. The VPO are self-governing. They have heard your complaints from other mouths, and made their choices. Not everyone agrees with your preferences and values, and you shouldn't expect them to. If you disapprove of the VPO that strongly, forego them. It seems like you won't do that but you still want to feel like you're defending a principle so you bad mouth them instead. That seems like having your cake and eating it too.
Quote from: Ken B on December 22, 2014, 05:33:49 AM
Neal
Without taking sides let me explain why I think you are missing what Phrygian, Florestan, Cato (?) are saying. Here is what I believe they are saying, rephrased:
Your dichotomy is false. You can also value leaving other people alone or respecting their choices. The VPO are self-governing. They have heard your complaints from other mouths, and made their choices. Not everyone agrees with your preferences and values, and you shouldn't expect them to. If you disapprove of the VPO that strongly, forego them. It seems like you won't do that but you still want to feel like you're defending a principle so you bad mouth them instead. That seems like having your cake and eating it too.
So if they choose to discriminate against blacks or jews or whomever, for example, I should just let them do it? Is that what you are saying? What about slavery? If we allow the VP, for example, to choose to do what it wants, aren't we potentially taking choices away from others?
Quote from: mc ukrneal on December 22, 2014, 05:59:13 AM
So if they choose to discriminate against blacks or jews or whomever, for example, I should just let them do it? Is that what you are saying? What about slavery? If we allow the VP, for example, to choose to do what it wants, aren't we potentially taking choices away from others?
"Is that what you are saying?"
Did you miss the part the part where I said this is not what I am saying?
I confess I am curious about your notion of "letting them do it." How do you propose to stop them? Invade?
Quote from: Ken B on December 22, 2014, 06:06:58 AM
"Is that what you are saying?"
Did you miss the part the part where I said this is not what I am saying?
But the part I quoted above seems to say precisely what you say you are not saying (leaving other people alone or respecting their choices- your words). So what are you saying? Unless you mean that you are trying to interpret what others are saying? In which case, my question would be directed to them.
Quote from: Ken B on December 22, 2014, 06:06:58 AM
I confess I am curious about your notion of "letting them do it." How do you propose to stop them? Invade?
Oh come now, there are lots of ways, whether they be simply my stopping the purchase of their goods and services all the way to acts that are heinous and callous. Realistically, one could boycot them, encourage others to do so, picket them, try to revoke their funding or scare off donors, lawsuits, bad PR, etc. I mean, look at what was done to get them to change their polity in the first place - I am sure it involved some of the above and many other actions/activities.
Neal: "Unless you mean that you are trying to interpret what others are saying?"
Ken B: "Without taking sides let me explain why I think you are missing what Phrygian, Florestan, Cato (?) are saying. Here is what I believe they are saying, rephrased:"
So yes, that is what I mean.
Quote from: Ken B on December 22, 2014, 06:29:19 AM
Neal: "Unless you mean that you are trying to interpret what others are saying?"
Ken B: "Without taking sides let me explain why I think you are missing what Phrygian, Florestan, Cato (?) are saying. Here is what I believe they are saying, rephrased:"
So yes, that is what I mean.
Thank you. That clarifies things.
Quote from: amw on December 22, 2014, 02:17:09 AM
I might believe the top is unbiased when people of any sex who are fat, ugly, old, disabled, autistic, schizophrenic, trans*/gender-variant etc—or possess any other features widely regarded as undesirable—can become a star soloist purely on the basis of artistic ability.
Thomas Quasthoff? Itzhak Perlman?
Quote from: Que on December 22, 2014, 03:35:06 AM
On topic: what surprises me most it the assumption that hiring "native" Austrians, or even just the male variety, would be necessary to preserve the VPO's orchestral tradition. This seems to me questionable. Wouldn't any newcomer have to adopt to the style and ways of the orchestra? And isn't any tradition subjected to gradual change over time? As historical recordings tell us: no orchestral tradition is carved into stone.
Possibly relevant: the Concertgebouw and the Czech Philharmonic used to have a rule that their chief conductor had to come from the same country as the orchestra. They both broke this rule around the same time. They are still great orchestras, so bending their traditions doesn't seem to have hurt them.
Quote from: Florestan on December 22, 2014, 03:16:59 AM
The funniest thing in this whole kerfuffle, though, is that precisely those who claptrap all day long about diversity, tolerance and reason are also the most willing to impose their values on everybody else, as well as the most likely to reply to the arguments of their opponents by calling them names. :D
This might seem a paradox but it is not, because their verbiage is only a cover-up for their yearning for sameness. They feel uncomfortable and insecure in a world full of different people with different worldviews and different values; their innermost yearning is for a world in which everybody would think, talk and behave exactly the same way --- incidentally, exactly the way they think, talk and behave. Unfortunately for them, this is not going to happen, because life is larger than ideology.
So there! ;D
Three cheers for Florestan and Cato for their excellent ideas and humour!! Such rare birds in our incredibly dull world of group-think!! I'm glad to have met you both but only sorry it's come at the end of message-boarding for me.
"Life is larger than ideology". Discuss. (Something for the Christmas dinner table of 8 adults - love it.)
And, you know what, so is the Vienna Philharmonic and their talented, refined (and handsome!) musicians. Many of them share the same train home with me after the "konzerts". I won't be at the Neujahrskonzert as it's just a Christmas cracker or Sylvester snowflake, after all. And they raise money for charity through this konzert.
Try telling that to Norman Lebrecht - the same man who pompously declared "there's no irony in Mahler". Gotta love that.
Here's the spoof on discrimination, which I originally referred to, from Peter Cook and Dudley Moore:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njK6zQp2Fdk
Spoiler alert: sense of humour required.
Quote from: Florestan on December 22, 2014, 04:01:28 AM
Of course, but that was precisely my point: preaching openness while in the same time wanting everybody to think and act exactly the same way is at best self-deluding and at worst hypocritical. ;D
But why do you link the two? These are completely separate ideas.
Quote from: Phrygian on December 22, 2014, 10:57:31 AM
And, you know what, so is the Vienna Philharmonic and their talented, refined (and handsome!) musicians. Many of them share the same train home with me after the "konzerts". I won't be at the Neujahrskonzert as it's just a Christmas cracker or Sylvester snowflake, after all. And they raise money for charity through this konzert.
Well, they may raise money, but they also cancelled the Valse Triste because they won't pay the fee to the Sibelius rights holders. Something like 2000€...
Quote from: Discobolus on December 22, 2014, 11:25:00 AM
Well, they may raise money, but they also cancelled the Valse Triste because they won't pay the fee to the Sibelius rights holders. Something like 2000€...
Is this refering to the sold out new year's concert? If they can sell out the concert without playing VT then they have an extra 2K euro for the charity. Why not then? I do not see why that would be to their discredit.
Quote from: Ken B on December 22, 2014, 06:06:58 AM
"Is that what you are saying?"
Did you miss the part the part where I said this is not what I am saying?
I confess I am curious about your notion of "letting them do it." How do you propose to stop them? Invade?
Fortunately Austrian and EU law is more enlightened than glibertarian talking points.
Quote from: Daverz on December 22, 2014, 01:19:18 PM
Fortunately Austrian and EU law is more enlightened than glibertarian talking points.
d
I confess to curiosity about you too. Can you express disgreement without adding personal insults?
I don't see any purposeful discussion anymore, just a very bad atmosphere.
So, I'm afraid it ends here.. (relieved is probably more accurate. .. ::))
Q