Norman Lebrecht bashes the Vienna Philharmonic

[Brian]

Thanks to Brian for writing a well-considered reponse to an OP that deserved a riposte.

Just checking, are you being sincere? I was drunk when I wrote that, and I don't remember what I said. Kinda worried 

Guess I'll go read everything over again now...

[Brian]

I'm happy to see Brian take up the sword though.

Yeah, that wasn't so bad after all. I guess I should drunk-post more often, especially if it scares away the cretins who think that equal opportunities for all human beings is a position limited to ax-grinding anti-capitalist victims.

[The new erato]

Even while drunk you easily surpass the usual Internet standard.

[Karl Henning]

Use your power only for good, Brian.

[Pat B]

Yeah, that wasn't so bad after all. I guess I should drunk-post more often, especially if it scares away the cretins who think that equal opportunities for all human beings is a position limited to ax-grinding anti-capitalist victims.

Thank you.

[Mirror Image]

I'm here for the music, I can only hope everyone else is as well. If Phrygian wants to debase himself/herself, so be it. I'll happily let them do it. In the meantime, I'll be listening to some Bartok.

[Ken B]

Here's a chance to piss off everyone!

Of course Phrygian's gladness that the orchestra is almost all male is dim-witted. So is his claim no group with women in it can discriminate against women. But that doesn't mean everything he said is wrong, no matter how satisfying it may feel to think so. As for hiring exceptional players for example, the orchestra now uses blind auditions. That's a big change, and it bolsters Phrygian's claim, which Brian doubted. They have revoked some odious past awards. So another of Phrygian's points is also bolstered: it isn't fair to keep hammering them with old, now shed, shameful practices. It is also counter-productive. We want organizations with such histories to reform; that means we should acknowledge such efforts, not go on grandstanding like Lebrecht.

[Pat B]

Disagreement with Phrygian does not necessarily constitute endorsement of Lebrecht.

The VPO started blind auditions in 1997. Half of the membership has turned over since then, but the percentage of women is still miniscule. I can't help but wonder whether their auditions are truly blind.

[The new erato]

Disagreement with Phrygian does not necessarily constitute endorsement of Lebrecht.

The VPO started blind auditions in 1997. Half of the membership has turned over since then, but the percentage of women is still miniscule. I can't help but wonder whether their auditions are truly blind.

Depends upon whether it is the judges or the players that are blindfolded I guess.

[Cosi bel do]

The auditions are generally organized with three rounds. They are blind in the first two, but in the third round the screen is removed. So, no, the auditions of the Wiener Philharmoniker are not really blind (unlike how they are organized in most big orchestras in Europe or in the States today).

[Florestan]

Audiatur et altera pars.

http://www.osborne-conant.org/wdr.htm

[Sergeant Rock]

himself/herself, so be it.

So is his her claim

Phrygian is a woman. She's mentioned a husband; mentioned being married for 40 years. And her profile says female.

Sarge

[amw]

Here's a chance to piss off everyone!

I broadly agree with you, but should note that while their official policy might be blind auditions—and it's not exactly, the last round is non-blind—(a) attitudes among members of the orchestra are still very negative towards women and nonwhites, (b) everyone knows it, and (c) those attitudes aren't going to go away quickly. Also Lebrecht is a sleazeball.

[Florestan]

a) attitudes among members of the orchestra are still very negative towards women and nonwhites, (b) everyone knows it, and (c) those attitudes aren't going to go away quickly.

My turn to piss off everyone. 

All the above are true, so what? They specifically and openly want to preserve their male, white, Central European tradition, so what? They are not a governmental company, they are not a public company, they can establish whatever rules they want for their membership. If you are so angry at them, then stop buying their recordings and stop attending their concerts  --- but no, you wouldn't do that because you want quality in the music you listen. 

Besides, to make such a fuss about one single orchestra, when all across Europe and the world there are plenty of orchestras open to women and non-whites, is a little exagerated. 

[The new erato]

What bothers me is that there seem to be something very Austrian about that attitude. Not that I have anything against Austria, a lovely country with tons og friendly people which I have visited on numerous occasions, but still. The past rears some ugly shadows.

[Brian]

Phrygian is a woman. She's mentioned a husband; mentioned being married for 40 years. And her profile says female.

Sarge

Is it sexist that I would have been more polite if I had known this? Honest question.

[Florestan]

What bothers me is that there seem to be something very Austrian about that attitude.

It is, but then again so what? I wouldn't want to live in a uniform world where there will be no more Austrian-ness, Norway-ness or Romanian-ness but only a dull Egalitarian-ness. The more diverse the cultures, the better for me. 

[Florestan]

Is it sexist that I would have been more polite if I had known this? Honest question.

Of course not. Being polite to women is just basic education.

[Ken B]

Is it sexist that I would have been more polite if I had known this? Honest question.

Yes. Honest answer. Double standard, "soft bigotry of low expectations".

[jochanaan]

Is it sexist that I would have been more polite if I had known this? Honest question.

No.  If she had been a "he," her remarks might justifiably have been chalked up as simple sexism; but since she is a she, it seems likely that there's something more complex going on.  Besides, some of us were trained to be polite to women.