GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => Opera and Vocal => Topic started by: Chris L. on March 23, 2015, 10:48:20 AM

Title: New to Wagner - Just purchased this big box set.
Post by: Chris L. on March 23, 2015, 10:48:20 AM
Note: I moved this post from "Purchases Today" because I felt it might fit better here.

Other then listening to piecemeal vocal excerpts and orchestral highlights recordings of Wagner's music on occasion, I'm basically a newbie, never having listened to or seen one of his operas in it's entirety. I got this 50 CD box at 50% off from Half Price Books for little more then $30. I know that most of the recordings here are historical mono, but at around 0.65 a disc it was almost as if I stole this set, so I can deal with the less then stellar sound quality.

Looking for advice on where to start with this box. Do I jump into the Ring saga at the beginning from disc 1 or should I start off with one of the smaller operas first (if anyone can call a Wagner opera "small" with a straight face)?

Finding any decent info on this set was difficult, so here are some excerpts of reviews I found on Amazon, with some editing work done by myself:

"This 50 CD set contains 11 complete operas, three are in stereo, the rest in mono. The excerpts are from 1904 to 1960. An 88 page booklet contains a history of Bayreuth and photos associated with Wagner. The discs are housed in a heavy cardboard box with a lid. The CD's are placed in cardboard sleeves, with the opera, names of the singers, conductor, etc. with tracking numbers guiding you to the various pieces of the opera.

Gems abound in this box. Every recording an excellent pick from the early years of Bayreuth. Most are taken from the fifties when Varnay, Modl, Hotter, Nilsson, Windgassen, etc., ruled. As well as the 4-Ks... Knappertsbusch, Keilberth, Krauss and Karajan. Those who do not have these will discover a vast Wagnerian treasure and will wallow in some of the greatest opera performances ever caught live on the Bayreuth stage. The Ring itself is worth the price of this set.

Transfers are good and the excerpts will allow the listener to sample other productions from the years of great Wagnerian singing; e.g. Rhinegold conducted by Clemens Krauss in 1953. Walkure conducted by Knapertsbusch in 1958, with Vickers, Rysanek, Varnay and Hotter. Siegfried Cond. by Keilberth 1953, with Modl, Windgassen, Hotter etc. Gotterdammerung cond. by Kempe in 1960. Tristan und Isolde with Modl and Suthaus cond. by Von Karajan in 1951, etc. The earliest recordings from 1904 will demonstrate how singers were instructed to sing Wagner, perhaps from Cosima Wagner herself, in the true Wagner tradition of that era. Fortunately, that era has passed. A bad case of the nerves seem to trouble a few of these singers. Interesting, though.

The Flying Dutchman, Lohengrin and Kempe's Gotterdammerung are in STEREO. I was asked this question by an American reviewer, and he could not believe it! He had been looking for these particular performances in stereo. The stereo recordings are excellent but there seems to be no movement of singers or separation of instruments in the orchestra. All is stationary. No doubt tapes from a radio archive were used. Some of the excerpts are in stereo as well. There is also a radio broadcast of Die Meistersinger with von Karajan conducting in '51 Bayreuth circulating along with the same production edited by EMI. That is probably the case here. The complete radio production sounds better and has the same cast. The Meistersinger in this box sounds much better than the EMI version. The Parsifal is a real prize along with 2-discs of excerpts from various outings".



(http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/ee513/Chrisl383/Classical%20Record%20Covers/Membran-Documents%2003_zps4pqth381.jpg) (http://s1231.photobucket.com/user/Chrisl383/media/Classical%20Record%20Covers/Membran-Documents%2003_zps4pqth381.jpg.html)(http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/ee513/Chrisl383/Classical%20Record%20Covers/Membran-Documents%2005_zpsupiusdd9.jpg) (http://s1231.photobucket.com/user/Chrisl383/media/Classical%20Record%20Covers/Membran-Documents%2005_zpsupiusdd9.jpg.html)(http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/ee513/Chrisl383/Classical%20Record%20Covers/Membran-Documents%2004_zpsejcobabt.jpg) (http://s1231.photobucket.com/user/Chrisl383/media/Classical%20Record%20Covers/Membran-Documents%2004_zpsejcobabt.jpg.html)(http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/ee513/Chrisl383/Classical%20Record%20Covers/Membran-Documents%2006_zpsnpociym7.jpg) (http://s1231.photobucket.com/user/Chrisl383/media/Classical%20Record%20Covers/Membran-Documents%2006_zpsnpociym7.jpg.html)








Title: Re: New to Wagner - Just purchased this big box set.
Post by: Chris L. on March 24, 2015, 07:45:07 AM
Hmm... not a whole lot going on in the Opera/Vocal Dept. I see.
Title: Re: New to Wagner - Just purchased this big box set.
Post by: Karl Henning on March 24, 2015, 07:49:01 AM
When Marvin gets wind of this, he will shake your hand vigorously!  :)
Title: Re: New to Wagner - Just purchased this big box set.
Post by: mc ukrneal on March 24, 2015, 08:02:20 AM
Yeah, opera is less of an interest for most here. And of those of us left, some are more interested in one or another period/style.

I don't know that box, but it certainly seems to have some good versions of the operas. Where to start is an interesting question. The Flying Hollander will give you an idea of the early style. It's quite lively, but if you compare it to Parsifal, for example, you might immediately see the difference in how he developed (Parsifal being his last opera). Rhiengold, the first of the Ring series, is another potential starting point. WIth the Ring, it is useful to understand (and know) the different leitmotifs (these are musical phrases/themes/musical progressions that are used to represent different characters, objects, emotions, etc. These themes sometimes change or are used in clever ways and can be thought of as signposts as you watch the 'action' on stage. Knowing them helps, and if you like what you hear, there are a number of resources on that (one is a double-disc of Derryck Cooke using the Solti ring to show many (all?) of the leitmotifs. Knowing them is not a requirement, but helps to connect things in such a long opera.

Personally, I'd start with a single opera (not Ring) not named Parsifal. I love Parsifal, but understanding (or adjusting to) Wagner's language a bit first can be very helpful. Tristan and Isolde or Mesitersinger is a good starting point. But they are all very good operas, so go with whatever tickles your fancy.
Title: Re: New to Wagner - Just purchased this big box set.
Post by: Karl Henning on March 24, 2015, 08:03:18 AM
Dutchman is a good bite-sized opera.
Title: Re: New to Wagner - Just purchased this big box set.
Post by: jochanaan on March 24, 2015, 08:05:33 AM
The first Ring opera, Das Rheingold, is actually very short for Wagner, being "only" one act, and it has some very exciting music.  (Love the "forging" scene!)  Warning: it may drag you under its spell as the Rhinemaidens drag Alberich under the Rhine, so that you'll have to set aside 24 hours or so to finish up the set! ;D
Title: Re: New to Wagner - Just purchased this big box set.
Post by: Chris L. on March 24, 2015, 08:11:28 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on March 24, 2015, 08:02:20 AM
Yeah, opera is less of an interest for most here. And of those of us left, some are more interested in one or another period/style.

I don't know that box, but it certainly seems to have some good versions of the operas. Where to start is an interesting question. The Flying Hollander will give you an idea of the early style. It's quite lively, but if you compare it to Parsifal, for example, you might immediately see the difference in how he developed (Parsifal being his last opera). Rhiengold, the first of the Ring series, is another potential starting point. WIth the Ring, it is useful to understand (and know) the different leitmotifs (these are musical phrases/themes/musical progressions that are used to represent different characters, objects, emotions, etc. These themes sometimes change or are used in clever ways and can be thought of as signposts as you watch the 'action' on stage. Knowing them helps, and if you like what you hear, there are a number of resources on that (one is a double-disc of Derryck Cooke using the Solti ring to show many (all?) of the leitmotifs. Knowing them is not a requirement, but helps to connect things in such a long opera.

Personally, I'd start with a single opera (not Ring) not named Parsifal. I love Parsifal, but understanding (or adjusting to) Wagner's language a bit first can be very helpful. Tristan and Isolde or Mesitersinger is a good starting point. But they are all very good operas, so go with whatever tickles your fancy.
This sounds like a good idea, start with the earliest opera in the box first and then the final opera after that. Or I could just listen to them chronologically. Was The Ring saga done chronologically or did he do other operas in between the segments? I can focus on the complete operas, and skip over all the excerpts from the various performances that are included in this set for now.

Of course, it would be the most helpful to actually SEE one of the operas performed with subtitles, but I'll get into that later when my budget allows.
Title: Re: New to Wagner - Just purchased this big box set.
Post by: mc ukrneal on March 24, 2015, 09:34:18 AM
Quote from: Chris L. on March 24, 2015, 08:11:28 AM
This sounds like a good idea, start with the earliest opera in the box first and then the final opera after that. Or I could just listen to them chronologically. Was The Ring saga done chronologically or did he do other operas in between the segments? I can focus on the complete operas, and skip over all the excerpts from the various performances that are included in this set for now.

Of course, it would be the most helpful to actually SEE one of the operas performed with subtitles, but I'll get into that later when my budget allows.
He did not write the Ring without interuption. Both Tristan and Meistersinger were written after he had started Siegfried. He then completed Siegfried and Gotterdammerung. Tristan is often seen as a watershed moment as it is sort of a beginning for 20th century works. But even in the Ring as a whole, you can see how the texture of the work becomes more complicated.

I bet youtube has something you can watch.
Title: Re: New to Wagner - Just purchased this big box set.
Post by: San Antone on March 24, 2015, 09:39:57 AM
Odd for me, yesterday I was listening to Tristan und Isolde.  Despite my overall animus towards Wagner, this work I find very listenable.

Spotify has the other big box of Wagner (http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Great-Operas-Bayreuth-Festival/dp/B00159679S/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1427218751&sr=1-1&keywords=wagner+great+operas), so I guess I will expand into other operas, although I know from experience I am not up to the Ring.
Title: Re: New to Wagner - Just purchased this big box set.
Post by: ritter on March 24, 2015, 01:40:36 PM
Das Rheingold was what got me hooked on Wagner as a teenager. I asked my father to buy it for me (on LP), not knowing very well who Wagner was, just because I found the title intriguing. Well, that was more than 35 years ago, and my passion for Wagner has only increased since then.

I also think that with Rheingold you get the mature Wagner in a manageable size, and then you can proceed either to the rest of the Ring (no need to take on the whole Ring in one go  ;) ), to the earlier operas or to the later stuff.

My two cents worth... ;D
Title: Re: New to Wagner - Just purchased this big box set.
Post by: mc ukrneal on March 24, 2015, 05:14:39 PM
Quote from: sanantonio on March 24, 2015, 09:39:57 AM
Odd for me, yesterday I was listening to Tristan und Isolde.  Despite my overall animus towards Wagner, this work I find very listenable.

Spotify has the other big box of Wagner (http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Great-Operas-Bayreuth-Festival/dp/B00159679S/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1427218751&sr=1-1&keywords=wagner+great+operas), so I guess I will expand into other operas, although I know from experience I am not up to the Ring.
Based on your interest in more modern classical music, I am not surprised you would find Tristan of interest. It is essentially at the beginning of the fork that leads you to some of the sound/style we hear from even living composers. The influence of Tristan is pretty remarkable - you may be interested to read more about it.
Title: Re: New to Wagner - Just purchased this big box set.
Post by: Mirror Image on March 24, 2015, 08:13:16 PM
I, too, was surprised by sanantonio's foray into Tristan und Isolde. Glad to hear it was an enjoyable listening experience. I haven't heard this opera in a few years, but recall being moved by it.
Title: Re: New to Wagner - Just purchased this big box set.
Post by: Mirror Image on March 24, 2015, 08:18:23 PM
As for the OP, Chris L., that looks like a neat box set. I don't know much about it, but the first Wagner anything I bought was Adrian Boult's set of overtures and preludes from the various operas on EMI. I really enjoyed the music and loved the dramatic quality of the music. From here, I bought two Ring sets: Solti and Karajan. Karajan's is the set that sold me on Wagner and I never really looked back. I don't listen to opera much, admittedly, but I spent a good portion of a summer several years ago and listened to Wagner's major operas or, at least, what I considered to be major. Parsifal, Tristan und Isolde, and Das Rheingold ended up becoming my favorites.
Title: Re: New to Wagner - Just purchased this big box set.
Post by: Chris L. on March 24, 2015, 09:28:05 PM
Isn't The Ring saga meant to be taken in as one big epic, sort of like The Lord of the Rings with it's three parts coming together as a continuous climatic story? I understand musically speaking one can listen to it in bits and pieces like a movie soundtrack, but if one were watching it for the first time doesn't one need to see all four operas in the correct order to have a clear understanding of what it's all about?
Title: Re: New to Wagner - Just purchased this big box set.
Post by: ritter on March 25, 2015, 01:44:21 AM
Quote from: Chris L. on March 24, 2015, 09:28:05 PM
Isn't The Ring saga meant to be taken in as one big epic, sort of like The Lord of the Rings with it's three parts coming together as a continuous climatic story? I understand musically speaking one can listen to it in bits and pieces like a movie soundtrack, but if one were watching it for the first time doesn't one need to see all four operas in the correct order to have a clear understanding of what it's all about?
I would start with Rheingold, then on to Walküre and so forth. But not necessarily in one go: you can listen to Rheingold, then jump to e.g. Tannhäuser or whatever, return to the Ring for Walküre, etc., etc. The Ring is one big dramatic whole, and very consitent musically---even if there is a significant advance in Götterdämmerung comaped to Rheingold; but it also is composed of 4 operas which can be enjoyed on their own. It's llike Proust's Remeberance of things past...it's parts are great, the whole is probably more than just the sum of the parts.
Title: Re: New to Wagner - Just purchased this big box set.
Post by: San Antone on March 25, 2015, 02:02:20 AM
I suppose if one were to approach the work logically (somewhat of a oxymoron; a logical Ring?) - there are a couple of recordings (Deryck Cooke?) explaining the Ring with highlights.  I even have one of them.   But can't get through it, much less the entire work.

On a more serious note, maybe one of the complete DVD sets would be the way to go.  I have the Met Ring and have watched one of the operas and it made understanding very easy.  Not that it's any help to actually know what is going on, in fact, it might be a hindrance.

;)
Title: Re: New to Wagner - Just purchased this big box set.
Post by: Karl Henning on March 25, 2015, 03:33:02 AM
Quote from: Chris L. on March 24, 2015, 09:28:05 PM
Isn't The Ring saga meant to be taken in as one big epic, sort of like The Lord of the Rings with it's three parts coming together as a continuous climatic story? I understand musically speaking one can listen to it in bits and pieces like a movie soundtrack, but if one were watching it for the first time doesn't one need to see all four operas in the correct order to have a clear understanding of what it's all about?

This is likely why I have yet to assay the Ring . . . much as I do enjoy and admire Parsifal, for instance, I have not yet listened to it in one uninterrupted dosage.

I'm basically waiting for that time when, on listening to the Ring, I do not find myself losing patience with it.
Title: Re: New to Wagner - Just purchased this big box set.
Post by: Mirror Image on March 25, 2015, 06:38:48 AM
Quote from: Chris L. on March 24, 2015, 09:28:05 PM
Isn't The Ring saga meant to be taken in as one big epic, sort of like The Lord of the Rings with it's three parts coming together as a continuous climatic story? I understand musically speaking one can listen to it in bits and pieces like a movie soundtrack, but if one were watching it for the first time doesn't one need to see all four operas in the correct order to have a clear understanding of what it's all about?

If you think you can listen to The Ring in one-go, then my hat is off to you. ;) For me, it's impossible. You have to remember that this is a 14 hour (give or take) cycle. It's best listened to one opera at a time IMHO. Personally, I don't really follow the story line or anything, I just listen to the music. I don't care much for the singing either, but, again, that's something I can tune out with no problem. :) I have what some may refer to as the Brucknerian approach to Wagner. 8)
Title: Re: New to Wagner - Just purchased this big box set.
Post by: Lisztianwagner on March 25, 2015, 08:03:27 AM
Quote from: Chris L. on March 24, 2015, 09:28:05 PM
Isn't The Ring saga meant to be taken in as one big epic, sort of like The Lord of the Rings with it's three parts coming together as a continuous climatic story? I understand musically speaking one can listen to it in bits and pieces like a movie soundtrack, but if one were watching it for the first time doesn't one need to see all four operas in the correct order to have a clear understanding of what it's all about?

Yes, indeed; if you start listening to the Tetralogy, I think that's better to follow the correct order of the cycle (Das Rheingold, Die Walküre, Siegfried and Götterdämmerung) to understand the development of both the story and the characters more clearly. It would be a little hard to listen to the whole Tetralogy in one-go, it would take too much time (not less than 14 hours, it depends on the conductor); I remember, when I started my wagnerian journey into the Ring Cycle for the first time, I listened to Das Rheingold, Die Walküre and the first act of Siegfried in a row; it was too immersive and hauntingly beautiful!
Wagner's Ring is sometimes compared to a giant symphony too, with every music drama as a specific movement (Siegfried, for example, would be the Scherzo).

Quote from: Mirror Image on March 25, 2015, 06:38:48 AM
If you think you can listen to The Ring in one-go, then my hat is off to you. ;) For me, it's impossible. You have to remember that this is a 14 hour (give or take) cycle. It's best listened to one opera at a time IMHO. Personally, I don't really follow the story line or anything, I just listen to the music. I don't care much for the singing either, but, again, that's something I can tune out with no problem. :) I have what some may refer to as the Brucknerian approach to Wagner. 8)

Oh, but you can't only focus on the music and ignore the rest, Wagner's art is Gesamtkunstwerk! ;)
Title: Re: New to Wagner - Just purchased this big box set.
Post by: jochanaan on March 25, 2015, 08:40:09 AM
Ideally, Wagner intended his Ring to be performed on four successive nights.  (Very very demanding for the singers singing Wotan and Brunnhilde, and almost physically impossible for the orchestra players! :o )
Title: Re: New to Wagner - Just purchased this big box set.
Post by: Lisztianwagner on March 25, 2015, 08:46:16 AM
Quote from: jochanaan on March 25, 2015, 08:40:09 AM
Ideally, Wagner intended his Ring to be performed on four successive nights.  (Very very demanding for the singers singing Wotan and Brunnhilde, and almost physically impossible for the orchestra players! :o )

As a matter of fact, at the first Bayreuth Festival, there was a pause between Das Rheingold/Die Walküre (performed on the 13th and 14th August) and Siegfried/Götterdämmerung (performed on the 16th and 17th August).
Title: Re: New to Wagner - Just purchased this big box set.
Post by: ritter on March 25, 2015, 08:52:43 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on March 25, 2015, 08:03:27 AM
...
Oh, but you can't only focus on the music and ignore the rest, Wagner's art is Gesamtkunstwerk! ;)
+1...concentarting on the whole requires an extra effort, but certainly pays off. And only by concentrating on the whole can one IMHO realize why Wagner enjoys such a special position in the arts...
Title: Re: New to Wagner - Just purchased this big box set.
Post by: Karl Henning on March 25, 2015, 08:59:17 AM
Quote from: jochanaan on March 25, 2015, 08:40:09 AM
Ideally, Wagner intended his Ring to be performed on four successive nights.  (Very very demanding for the singers singing Wotan and Brunnhilde, and almost physically impossible for the orchestra players! :o )

Someday, I may assay that (as an auditor, I mean).
Title: Re: New to Wagner - Just purchased this big box set.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 25, 2015, 09:00:03 AM
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on March 25, 2015, 08:46:16 AM
As a matter of fact, at the first Bayreuth Festival, there was a pause between Das Rheingold/Die Walküre (performed on the 13th and 14th August) and Siegfried/Götterdämmerung (performed on the 16th and 17th August).

Siegfried needed that time to grow up  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: New to Wagner - Just purchased this big box set.
Post by: Karl Henning on March 25, 2015, 09:02:51 AM
(It didn't help.)

(Had to, sorry!)  8)
Title: Re: New to Wagner - Just purchased this big box set.
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on March 25, 2015, 10:40:08 AM
Quote from: ritter on March 24, 2015, 01:40:36 PM
Das Rheingold was what got me hooked on Wagner as a teenager.

Exactly the same thing with me. In fact, Rheingold was what really pushed me into the classical music as whole (I had liked some pieces earlier than that but I wasn't listening to it that much). I started with the Ring, then listened to Tannhäuser, Meistersinger, Lohengrin, Dutchman, Tristan and Parsifal. The only works I didn't instantly like that much was Tristan and curiously, Lohengrin, but after several relistenings tristan became one of my favorite works of all time and I listened to Lohengrin eventually again and again enjoying every bit of it,especially the prelude and ending of act III. So I wouldn't start with Tristan but I also wouldn't miss it for the world. I think Ring is as good a starting point as any. It certainly worked with me.
Title: Re: New to Wagner - Just purchased this big box set.
Post by: Chris L. on March 25, 2015, 10:54:01 AM
Quote from: Alberich on March 25, 2015, 10:40:08 AM
Exactly the same thing with me. In fact, Rheingold was what really pushed me into the classical music as whole (I had liked some pieces earlier than that but I wasn't listening to it that much). I started with the Ring, then listened to Tannhäuser, Meistersinger, Lohengrin, Dutchman, Tristan and Parsifal. The only one I didn't instantly like that much was Tristan but after several relistenings it became one of my favorite works of all time. So I wouldn't start with Tristan but I also wouldn't miss it for the world. I think Ring is as good a starting point as any. It certainly worked with me.
So should I start with the biggest and grandest first (Ring saga), or save it for the last? Decisions... decisions... I think I might just work my way through the box from disc 1, starting with Das Rheingold.
Title: Re: New to Wagner - Just purchased this big box set.
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on March 25, 2015, 10:57:55 AM
I edited my last post but I'll put it here as well: I forgot to mention that like Tristan I didn't like Lohengrin at first neither but now the situation is quite the opposite. And Rheingold is very good place to start.
Title: Re: New to Wagner - Just purchased this big box set.
Post by: Jo498 on March 26, 2015, 12:58:27 AM
If you start with Rheingold, you do both: Rheingold is fairly short and accessible but the Ring is the grandest of all. The flying dutchman is also good and fairly accessible but it is quite different from the later Wagnerian "musical drama" whereas Rheingold although not long already has the breadth of the rest of the tetralogy.

I used to recommend "Walküre" as starting point because the first act is a rather conventional and accessible love story, the beginning of the 3rd act (ride) very famous and the respective endings of the 2nd (Todesverkündigung) and 3rd act (magic fire and Wotan's farewell) extremely beautiful. The downside are the rather dry bits in most of the 2nd act and the middle of the 3rd.

(Still do not care much for Tannhäuser and Lohengrin although these are probably the most popular in Germany and their preludes are justly famous.)
Title: Re: New to Wagner - Just purchased this big box set.
Post by: Daverz on March 26, 2015, 01:41:43 AM
Quote from: Chris L. on March 24, 2015, 07:45:07 AM
Hmm... not a whole lot going on in the Opera/Vocal Dept. I see.

I just don't have the sitzfleisch for Wagner.
Title: Re: New to Wagner - Just purchased this big box set.
Post by: San Antone on March 26, 2015, 02:22:07 AM
Quote from: Daverz on March 26, 2015, 01:41:43 AM
I just don't have the sitzfleisch for Wagner.

;D
Title: Re: New to Wagner - Just purchased this big box set.
Post by: MishaK on April 22, 2015, 08:04:24 AM
I'm not too fond of Dutchman and it is in some ways not really representative of the rest of Wagner's output. Much more like Weber on steroids than mature Wagner. If I were looking for a point of entry, I would also recommend Rheingold or actually Lohengrin, which is mature Wagnerian music theater, but unlike e.g. Parsifal or Tristan it has pretty much non-stop stage action. In my mind it is the most stageable of Wagner operas. Also really lovely music.
Title: Re: New to Wagner - Just purchased this big box set.
Post by: king ubu on April 22, 2015, 12:17:31 PM
The "Ring" in ten or so minutes:
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/feuilleton/bilder-und-zeiten/kaminski-erklaert-wagners-ring-jeder-giert-nach-seinem-gut-12193398.html

(facing musical fears: being drowned under my Wagner boxes before actually listening to any bit of 'em)
Title: Re: New to Wagner - Just purchased this big box set.
Post by: Moonfish on April 22, 2015, 12:53:17 PM
Quote from: king ubu on April 22, 2015, 12:17:31 PM
The "Ring" in ten or so minutes:
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/feuilleton/bilder-und-zeiten/kaminski-erklaert-wagners-ring-jeder-giert-nach-seinem-gut-12193398.html

(facing musical fears: being drowned under my Wagner boxes before actually listening to any bit of 'em)

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D  0:)
Title: Re: New to Wagner - Just purchased this big box set.
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on April 26, 2015, 01:59:24 PM
Quote from: Chris L. on March 23, 2015, 10:48:20 AM
Note: I moved this post from "Purchases Today" because I felt it might fit better here.

Looking for advice on where to start with this box. Do I jump into the Ring saga at the beginning from disc 1 or should I start off with one of the smaller operas first (if anyone can call a Wagner opera "small" with a straight face)?

If you are interested in Wagner and would like to explore while on a budget you could have gotten this one for around $40:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61uALVHOszL._SX425_.jpg)

It contains a great Tristan, Ring, and an almost great Lohengrin. At least everything is in stereo (which is pretty much a mandatory if you are new to Wagner).
Title: Re: New to Wagner - Just purchased this big box set.
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on April 26, 2015, 02:05:53 PM
Quote from: jochanaan on March 25, 2015, 08:40:09 AM
Ideally, Wagner intended his Ring to be performed on four successive nights.  (Very very demanding for the singers singing Wotan and Brunnhilde, and almost physically impossible for the orchestra players! :o )

As many times as the Metropolitan Opera has presented this work I don't ever recall it being performed on 4 consecutive nights. It is probably for practical reasons as well - the demand on the audience to sit through 4 consecutive evenings is a bit much.

Completely agree with the almost super-human orchestral demands. Wagner saves some of the most difficult music for the END of each opera where the orchestra is pretty well burnt out. For example the rather exposed piccolo part in the Magic Fire Music at the end of Die Walkuere.
Title: Re: New to Wagner - Just purchased this big box set.
Post by: Jo498 on April 26, 2015, 11:05:04 PM
Quote from: king ubu on April 22, 2015, 12:17:31 PM
(facing musical fears: being drowned under my Wagner boxes before actually listening to any bit of 'em)

The canonical quote here is Fafner's "Ich lieg' und besitz', lasst mich schlafen"
(I lie down and own [sc. the hoard], let me sleep)
Title: Re: New to Wagner - Just purchased this big box set.
Post by: Jaakko Keskinen on April 27, 2015, 02:52:22 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on April 26, 2015, 02:05:53 PM
the rather exposed piccolo part in the Magic Fire Music at the end of Die Walkuere.

Piccolo must be really difficult to play because I learned to play the magic fire fairly easily on piano and I am so bad at playing instruments I can't even be described as a beginner.
Title: Re: New to Wagner - Just purchased this big box set.
Post by: Wendell_E on April 27, 2015, 03:22:34 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on April 26, 2015, 02:05:53 PM
As many times as the Metropolitan Opera has presented this work I don't ever recall it being performed on 4 consecutive nights.

Neither has Bayreuth.  As someone mentioned, at the first festival there was a day's break between Die Walküre and Siegfried.  These days, they take a second day off between Siegfried and Gotterdammerung.

Checking that at the Bayreuth Festival website, I noticed that in addition to three complete cycles, there a "stand-alone" performance of Siegfried, on August 5th.  That's new, AFAIK.  Why?
http://www.bayreuther-festspiele.de/english/programme_157.html

Back to the Met, there's been a lot of complaints about how spread out the cycles are in the latest production.  Throughout the life of the Schenk production, you could see a complete cycle over six days, just as at Bayreuth.  The Lepage is spread out over at least eight, making things difficult, especially for out-of-towners.

Title: Re: New to Wagner - Just purchased this big box set.
Post by: Decaffeinato on April 27, 2015, 07:11:26 AM
I would be willing to bet that the majority of audience members don't want to go see the Ring on consecutive nights.
Title: Re: New to Wagner - Just purchased this big box set.
Post by: king ubu on April 30, 2015, 02:29:29 AM
So would they prefer decaf Wagner?  ;)
Title: Re: New to Wagner - Just purchased this big box set.
Post by: jochanaan on May 14, 2015, 08:29:35 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on April 26, 2015, 02:05:53 PM
...Completely agree with the almost super-human orchestral demands. Wagner saves some of the most difficult music for the END of each opera where the orchestra is pretty well burnt out. For example the rather exposed piccolo part in the Magic Fire Music at the end of Die Walkuere.
Quote from: Alberich on April 27, 2015, 02:52:22 AM
Piccolo must be really difficult to play because I learned to play the magic fire fairly easily on piano and I am so bad at playing instruments I can't even be described as a beginner.
As orchestral instruments go, piccolo is not particularly difficult, and piccolo players are used to being "exposed," since they are always heard if they play at all. ;D That part is not technically difficult, but it does require precision.  The violin parts there are much more demanding.  And as you say, the orchestra has already been playing for four-plus hours...!  Although not continuously.  While Wagner wrote more on average for the orchestra than most other opera composers, there are in fact many rests for every section of the orchestra.
Title: Re: New to Wagner - Just purchased this big box set.
Post by: Karl Henning on May 14, 2015, 08:30:19 AM
Quote from: jochanaan on May 14, 2015, 08:29:35 AM
As orchestral instruments go, piccolo is not particularly difficult, and piccolo players are used to being "exposed," since they are always heard if they play at all. ;D

This composer accepts the challenge!  8)
Title: Re: New to Wagner - Just purchased this big box set.
Post by: MishaK on May 14, 2015, 01:18:33 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on April 26, 2015, 02:05:53 PM
As many times as the Metropolitan Opera has presented this work I don't ever recall it being performed on 4 consecutive nights. It is probably for practical reasons as well - the demand on the audience to sit through 4 consecutive evenings is a bit much.

Not to mention the challenge for busy New Yorkers to find four consecutive nights on which they are free to go to the opera.