Poll
Question:
Do you prefer Beethoven's 9th or his "Missa Solemnis"
Option 1: Symphony No. 9
Option 2: Missa Solemnis
I've been listening to a lot of Beethoven recently.
Missa Solemnis for me, though I like the 9th, too. In fact, if the MS consisted only of the Gloria I think it would still win.
The 9th. I think having performed it helps with my decision.
The 9th Symphony, no contest.
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on April 18, 2015, 11:08:35 AM
The 9th Symphony, no contest.
A
Ninth fan here as well. I've
almost given up on the
Missa Solemnis(after more than 30 years acquaintance with the piece)...I say "almost", because I've read wonders of the work that so far have eluded me, but which I still hope to discover ;)
And good evening,
Ilaria!
Quote from: ritter on April 18, 2015, 11:14:38 AM
And good evening, Ilaria!
Good evening,
Rafael!
Although it's certainly a beautiful composition, I rarely listen to the
Missa Solemins (I've got Karajan's recording), since I tend to prefer Beethoven's symphonic or piano works;
Symphony No.9 is one of my favourite pieces of all time.
.
https://www.youtube.com/v/LVf5Cr4M-F8
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 18, 2015, 10:54:42 AM
The 9th. I think having performed it helps with my decision.
The Missa. And having been in a performance may have influenced me as well.
The Missa solemnis, especially when conducted by Szell and Klemperer.
Sarge
I could not decide. I love both pieces and they are among the most moving and overwhelming I know (so I nowadays also listen rather infrequently). I have never heard the 9th in concert unfortunately. The Missa twice (but with a rather provincial setup and the last time in a non-ideal hall where it often was almost overwhelmingly loud, still very impressive). In the Missa there is just too much going on to really follow it in real time and it is quite hard for the performers to bring out the important stuff. Although I have listened to the Missa for more then 25 years, almost as long as to the 9th I feel that I have a much better grasp of the latter.
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 18, 2015, 11:51:31 AM
The Missa. And having been in a performance may have influenced me as well.
;D
The 9th. No matter how hard I try i just can't seem to get into the Missa.
Banana.
I voted for MS. But diffidently. Neither is a favourite. I like 3 movements of 9. I'd substitute the Grosse Fugue for the last movement. 8)
Hands down, the Missa Solemnis. As much as I love the Ninth, I firmly believe the Missa is in a whole different league; a supreme, transcendent masterpiece.
Interesting results and opinions.
I wonder if I am the only one who has heard the MS before hearing the 9th...
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 18, 2015, 11:56:30 AM
The Missa solemnis, especially when conducted by Szell and Klemperer.
Sarge
Tag-team does work best.
Quote from: Ken B on April 18, 2015, 02:00:09 PM
Banana.
I voted for MS. But diffidently. Neither is a favourite. I like 3 movements of 9. I'd substitute the Grosse Fugue for the last movement. 8)
Originally the last movement was going to be based on the main theme of the Allegro appassionato from Op. 132. I've always wondered what that would have sounded like. (I have the Camerata Nordica orchestral arrangement of the late quartets, but it would've been in D minor, and probably a lot longer and less... chamber-musicy? Idk but it's interesting to imagine)
Only 16 votes, guys? I want to see every active GMG member vote. This isn't some special interest poll (i.e. Feldman, or even Ravel)! 8)
In another forum someone wrote years ago that a shortish instrumental movement along the lines of the finale of op.132 would have been one of the biggest disappointments in musical history. I simply cannot imagine how this would have been, only that it would have been quite different from the string quartet movement. Even twice as long (the op.132 finale lasts about 6-6:30) it would still be much less weighty than the first or slow movement of the symphony.
I think, while an instrumental finale *might* start somewhat similar to the string quartet movement, overall it could be more similar to the choral finale than one would expect. Just without the chorus. After an appassionato section there would be some triumphal resolution and the rest would maybe similarly bombastic like the actual movement or the "Consecration of the House" Ouverture.
I gave my vote to Symphony No. 9.
I refuse to choose.
:o
The Union forced me to vote for the Anthem
No "or" here. "And" is the word. Missa and the 9th. ;D
The Missa. But the slow movement of the Ninth trumps even that work. Sorry, the Ode to Joy no longer induces much joy in me.
Oh yes! 9th! and Missa! and last quartets! and last sonatas!
Tried the Missa again; still not feeling it. Maybe if someone played it on a piano...
Quote from: mszczuj on April 27, 2015, 06:11:45 AM
Oh yes! 9th! and Missa! and last quartets! and last sonatas!
Yes, indeed!! ;D
Quote from: MN Dave on April 30, 2015, 06:08:44 AM
Tried the Missa again; still not feeling it. Maybe if someone played it on a piano...
I doubt it. It needs the orchestra.
Quote from: MN Dave on April 30, 2015, 10:49:26 AM
It needs something.
Maybe a good recording. Which are you listening to?
Quote from: jochanaan on April 30, 2015, 10:52:38 AM
Maybe a good recording. Which are you listening to?
Klemperer--and I had a different one a while back. Hm... Karajan maybe? Bernstein?
I'd be hesitant to try it again. :D
Quote from: MN Dave on April 30, 2015, 10:55:09 AM
Klemperer--and I had a different one a while back. Hm... Karajan maybe? Bernstein?
I'd be hesitant to try it again. :D
Maybe a good recent period-instrument or HIP recording. I've heard good things about the Herreweghe Missa. Or, for some of the best singing on record, there is the one by Karl Boehm and the Vienna Philharmonic, with Margaret Price, Christa Ludwig, Wiecslaw Ochman (I think), Martti Talvela and the Vienna Singverein.
Quote from: jochanaan on April 30, 2015, 11:10:41 AM
Maybe a good recent period-instrument or HIP recording.
God, I hope not. I rather like Bernstein with the NYP, or Toscanini. The first one I knew was with Karajan, and I admit when I was 16 I found it dense and impenetrable. Now I find the fugues in the Gloria and Credo thrilling, as well as the "military" interludes in the Agnus Dei.
I think the Klemperer/EMI is quite transparent, overall very good and unlikely to prevent appreciation of the music. But maybe a more fiery reading like Toscanini or Bernstein/NY would be a fine complement (although Klemp is not particularly slow, except in the in gloria Dei patris).
Quote from: jochanaan on April 30, 2015, 11:10:41 AM
Maybe a good recent period-instrument or HIP recording.
Obviously it should be HIP but I was satisfied only with the Terje Kvam.
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Very good are almost all movements of new Gardiner but as I remember (I have heard it only once) the Credo was a complete disaster. I haven't find any sense at all in old Gardiner. I was not very convinced by both Herreweghe recordings either.
As to non HIP I was rather fond of Masur with Gewanhaus. At least it was much better than Karajan. I didn't managed to listen to Bernstein as I find it simply ridicoulus. I didn't even try Toscanini as I really hate his primitive Beethoven. Klemperer was not bad.
Quote from: mszczuj on May 01, 2015, 01:17:58 AM
I didn't even try Toscanini as I really hate his primitive Beethoven.
AH, yes. I can hear those jungle drums thudding even now . . .
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on May 01, 2015, 03:10:56 AM
AH, yes. I can hear those jungle drums thudding even now . . .
Nothing like that, just one-dimensional.
Quote from: mszczuj on May 01, 2015, 03:38:02 AM
Nothing like that, just one-dimensional.
Which you claim not having heard the interpretation. Goodbye.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on May 01, 2015, 04:24:14 AM
Which you claim not having heard the interpretation. Goodbye.
In fairness he means "having heard his primitive OTHER Beethoven", right? So when he says one-dimensional he means that OTHER Beethoven. He did not assert that the Missa was primitive. Just unlikely to please him.
Is this really so unreasonable? I have heard only one bit of Wagner sung by Florence Foster Jenkins. I don't want to hear her as Isolde.
Oh, but she's a stunner as Isolde! (I hear . . . .)
Quote from: Ken B on May 01, 2015, 10:37:58 AM
In fairness he means "having heard his primitive OTHER Beethoven", right? So when he says one-dimensional he means that OTHER Beethoven. He did not assert that the Missa was primitive. Just unlikely to please him.
Is this really so unreasonable? I have heard only one bit of Wagner sung by Florence Foster Jenkins. I don't want to hear her as Isolde.
I know what he meant. But Jenkins was a comedienne, and Toscanini a serious artist. There was a time when he was held in high esteem, and now it's fashionable to sneer at him. And what, after all, does this "one-dimensional" mean? Why should it "obviously" be HIP when Bernstein is "simply ridicoulus"?
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on May 01, 2015, 10:45:57 AM
I know what he meant. But Jenkins was a comedienne, and Toscanini a serious artist. There was a time when he was held in high esteem, and now it's fashionable to sneer at him. And what, after all, does this "one-dimensional" mean? Why should it "obviously" be HIP when Bernstein is "simply ridicoulus"?
I'm not defending his criticism. But you slammed him for allegedly saying something about a performance he had not heard, and I pointed out that he did not.
I'm a bit late with this poll.
Missa Solemnis was a revelation to me when I heard it the first time. I believe it's one of the best works Beethoven wrote.