I'm upgrading my Mission V63 floorstanders.
What are some suggestions for new speakers which have a great dynamic range and which will be especially great for classical music listening?
I'm looking to spend $3-5k
:)
Quote from: Solitary Wanderer on August 01, 2007, 06:49:29 PM
I'm upgrading my Mission V63 floorstanders.
What are some suggestions for new speakers which have a great dynamic range and which will be especially great for classical music listening?
I'm looking to spend $3-5k
:)
I'm a Mission fan myself, but I guess for that budget you could upgrade! :)
On my wishlist are speakers by
QUAD (http://www.quad-hifi.co.uk/index.php).
Q
Quote from: Solitary Wanderer on August 01, 2007, 06:49:29 PM
I'm upgrading my Mission V63 floorstanders.
What are some suggestions for new speakers which have a great dynamic range and which will be especially great for classical music listening?
I'm looking to spend $3-5k
:)
My dear friend whatever suggestions you get, you can take them with you of course.
But what you really need to do, if you want to spend that much money on new speakers, is first take into consideration the amplification you have, and then take you ears to a hifi shop, and start listening, and comparing, and if you have finally established what brand you want to have, try them first with you amplification at home. and I consider it very important out of experience, to buy good cabling and interlinks.
Good hunt.
Harry has good advices.... ;)
Couple recommendations of Finnish loudspeakers:
(http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/4958/revo2sj2.jpg) (http://imageshack.us) Gradient Revolution (http://www.gradient.fi/products/revolution/index.html) [Reviews] (http://www.gradient.fi/products/revolution/sivu4.html)
(http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/8408/xenonbirch2syvky0.jpg) (http://imageshack.us) Amphion Xenon (http://www.amphion.fi/index.php?sivu=20) [Reviews] (http://www.amphion.fi/index.php?sivu=60)
Both of these loudspeakers have resistance boxes for midrange resulting a hypercardioid radiation pattern. This increases the directivity on middle frequencies and makes these speaker sound good even in not so good acoustic conditions.
Where you live will influence what you can get. I'm partial to Joseph Audio, and have both their RM22s (for my third system) and RM25s (for my main system), and find them to be better suited to my tastes than any other comparably priced speakers. The 25s, in particular, offer superb dynamic range for only using two 6.5" woofers each, and all Joseph speakers offer superb clarity from top to bottom. Some listeners find them a bit cool, but depending on electronics, that may or may not matter. Josephs aren't widely available even in the US, and are harder to find elsewhere.
But the 3-5K range (assuming US$) means that B&W, Sonus Faber, Vienna Acoustics, KEF, Monitor Audio (I've owned or own speakers from all five of these makers, and all have strengths and weaknesses), Usher, Focal, Rega, ProAc, and who knows how many other types of speakers are out there. Your associated electronics and room will obviously have to be considered. I say be prepared to do a lot of demos.
Rather than thinking about specific makes, I would suggest thinking in terms of of broad categories of speaker types first. Most people confine their speaker choices to the dynamic sealed or ported box types. However, make the effort to hear some of the less common genres, such as planar/electrostatics, horns and single-driver speakers. Listen to a few examples of each type, and if one seems to sound particularly good to you then focus your search on various brands within each type (of course, your amplification might make some of these categories non-starters, but then nothing stopping you from upgrading your amp, too, right? ;D) Don't forget the used market, as well.
This is an opinionated but fun website listing some of the best hi fi components, past and present:
http://www.high-endaudio.com/
Thanks for the input everyone.
I appreciate the question is a bit like 'how long is a piece of string?'
I need to upgrade my reciever as well I guess.
I'm just getting some general ideas at the moment. Thers a high-end hi-fi store locally, but they are exclusive dealers for various brands so they always push that, so they're biased.
But I'll keep chipping away and try to demo some [at home if possible] before I lay down any hard cash.
By the way that figure was NZ$ which is worth less 20% US$ :)
Auditioning is really the safest bet.
Relying on recommendations, even from friends, can lead to a dead end. No matter how enthusiastic the friends and/or recommendations may be.
This exact scenario played out with me while searching for the 'perfect' stand-mount speaker. One of my good friends who's been in the audio sales biz for a few years now (currently he's a sales rep for Rega) had high praise for a particular Linn stand-mount and felt it would suit my small room needs perfectly.
I was stoked to be able to take a (worn in) pair home and audition them in a most natural environment. But try as I might I couldn't hear in them what my friend did. So back to the shop they went.
My hunt continued (sans friend this time) and again I landed a home audition of another contender: a pair of B&W 705's.
These I liked much better but, alas, back they went - tail between legs - owing to the brouhaha my wife made of their "ugly" design. I, myself, couldn't see the ugliness she saw but, well, we know how far that goes. So score one for the wife...
Of course, none of this is related to the issue of personal taste (well, mine, anyway...) but there is a silver lining here.
After sorting through the great labyrinth of speaker choices (KEF, Rega, Rourk, B&W 805's, Sonus Faber, Monitor Audio, as well as a couple of floorstanders valued in the five figures!) without finding much success I finally hit on the right stand-mount speaker for me: a pair Revel M20's.
The silver lining is that had my wife not poo-pooed my earlier choice I'd have been blissfully ignorant of the existence of the Revel's. And I'd have missed out on just the right speaker for me!
So score yet another one for the wife... :-X ;D
Quote from: donwyn on August 02, 2007, 07:11:17 PM
Auditioning is really the safest bet.
Relying on recommendations, even from friends, can lead to a dead end. No matter how enthusiastic the friends and/or recommendations may be.
This exact scenario played out with me while searching for the 'perfect' stand-mount speaker. One of my good friends who's been in the audio sales biz for a few years now (currently he's a sales rep for Rega) had high praise for a particular Linn stand-mount and felt it would suit my small room needs perfectly.
I was stoked to be able to take a (worn in) pair home and audition them in a most natural environment. But try as I might I couldn't hear in them what my friend did. So back to the shop they went.
My hunt continued (sans friend this time) and again I landed a home audition of another contender: a pair of B&W 705's.
These I liked much better but, alas, back they went - tail between legs - owing to the brouhaha my wife made of their "ugly" design. I, myself, couldn't see the ugliness she saw but, well, we know how far that goes. So score one for the wife...
Of course, none of this is related to the issue of personal taste (well, mine, anyway...) but there is a silver lining here.
After sorting through the great labyrinth of speaker choices (KEF, Rega, Rourk, B&W 805's, Sonus Faber, Monitor Audio, as well as a couple of floorstanders valued in the five figures!) without finding much success I finally hit on the right stand-mount speaker for me: a pair Revel M20's.
The silver lining is that had my wife not poo-pooed my earlier choice I'd have been blissfully ignorant of the existence of the Revel's. And I'd have missed out on just the right speaker for me!
So score yet another one for the wife... :-X ;D
Good story.
Yes, my wife will have the final say regarding the aesthetics; style, colour etc. ;)
Quote from: Harry on August 01, 2007, 10:45:24 PM
And I consider it very important out of experience, to buy good cabling and interlinks.
This is good advice but I'd warn the novice purchaser to closely scrutinize cable choices and audition as broad a range of makes/models as possible, emphasizing SYNERGY within their particular system above all else - even over COST!!
My own cable choices, after auditioning several via loans and purchases, came down to a very expensive half-meter interconnect and - most importantly - a very INEXPENSIVE pair of speaker cables! And I mean bottom of the barrel, one dollar per foot speaker cable!
They simply trumped all other comers!
Improbable, perhaps, but obviously not impossible...
Quote from: Solitary Wanderer on August 02, 2007, 07:26:00 PM
Yes, my wife will have the final say regarding the aesthetics; style, colour etc. ;)
;)
Could this be why male bonding was invented...?
Quote from: donwyn on August 02, 2007, 07:36:28 PM[...] a very INEXPENSIVE pair of speaker cables! And I mean bottom of the barrel, one dollar per foot speaker cable!
They simply trumped all other comers!
Improbable, perhaps, but obviously not impossible...
I suppose it would be foolhardy for me to mention speaker cable and placebo effect in the same sentence here, eh? It might stir up a mess. >:D
Quote from: Solitary Wanderer on August 02, 2007, 04:04:47 PM
Thanks for the input everyone.
I appreciate the question is a bit like 'how long is a piece of string?'
I need to upgrade my reciever as well I guess.
I'm just getting some general ideas at the moment. Thers a high-end hi-fi store locally, but they are exclusive dealers for various brands so they always push that, so they're biased.
But I'll keep chipping away and try to demo some [at home if possible] before I lay down any hard cash.
By the way that figure was NZ$ which is worth less 20% US$ :)
Even if they are biased, it does not mean that they haven't good gear right.
So again open your ears, and listen, there is no other way! :)
Quote from: donwyn on August 02, 2007, 07:48:38 PM
;)
Could this be why male bonding was invented...?
Funny, the same question came up with me! ;D
Quote from: beclemund on August 02, 2007, 08:55:04 PM
I suppose it would be foolhardy for me to mention speaker cable and placebo effect in the same sentence here, eh? It might stir up a mess. >:D
It's a thorny subject, you got that right. And I'm reluctant to enter into it all because of the toes I'm bound to step on.
But, what the heck...
Let me start off by saying in my experience there's no denying that cabling makes a whopping difference in an audio system. At least in a high-end audio system. Why that should be I don't know and am chaffed to find out. Even my audio industry buddy hasn't a clue.
However, what seems apparent to me is that price is a poor indicator of cable quality. That's of course borne out by my speaker cable experience. I actually jumped for joy when I learned that the bottom-dollar speaker cable would make the best choice for my system. No, I don't have a neon-glam python-of-a-cable ranging across my floor to show off what I'm endowed with speaker cable-wise but what I have gets the job done admirably (mind you, I could've
had the neon stuff had I wanted it).
Which begs the question: just what are the cable companies up to? It would seem to me based on my experience that the cable companies might possibly be dabbling in coloring their cable somehow to produce a desired 'signature sound'. Don't know how they'd manage it but it seems the only plausible thing.
This theory is also borne out by my very EXPENSIVE interconnect! There's no denying it actually surpasses the bargain-basement interconnect I keep around, try as I might to wish otherwise. Bottom line is it's a worthy performer that defies any prejudices I might have regarding expensive cabling. It rounds out my system on equal footing with my cheaper speaker cable.
Although I have to believe the expensive interconnect performs well because it simply 'fits' into my system's acoustical schematics. So given this, that's where I put the credit, not the high price tag.
So, what to do with cabling (or anything hi-fi)? For me I just keep clear of the glam and be methodical. And audition, audition, audition......
Quote from: Harry on August 02, 2007, 11:11:34 PM
Funny, the same question came up with me! ;D
;) ;D
They mean well...right?
Right??
Quote from: donwyn on August 03, 2007, 09:37:15 PM
;) ;D
They mean well...right?
Right??
I guess so..................... ;)
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 09, 2010, 04:28:29 AM
He's right. Through my Canton Ventos in my main listening room the recording sounds spectacular. But last night, listening to "mid-fi" speakers attached to my computer, clarity was lost. The viola and cello turned to mud. It was difficult to hear individual lines. The performance is exciting as hell so I didn't mind but I want to second Jens' warning. If you think the sound might be a problem for you, you should consider one of his other choices.
Sarge
It wasn't until I heard the recordings on these puppies, that I discovered their 'hidden' audiophile nature:
Thiel SCS4 (http://www.thielaudio.com/THIEL_Site05/Pages/models/Current_Models/SCS4/SCS4_main.shtml)
(http://www.blogcdn.com/hd.engadget.com/media/2008/12/20081207-thielscs4-preview.jpg)
(http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/pics/thiel_scs4_.jpg)
Quote from: jlaurson on July 09, 2010, 05:44:19 AM
It wasn't until I heard the recordings on these puppies, that I discovered their 'hidden' audiophile nature:
Thiel SCS4 (http://www.thielaudio.com/THIEL_Site05/Pages/models/Current_Models/SCS4/SCS4_main.shtml)
(http://www.blogcdn.com/hd.engadget.com/media/2008/12/20081207-thielscs4-preview.jpg)
(http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/pics/thiel_scs4_.jpg)
I'd like to hear them (I've been considering replacing my old Polk bookshelves in my den) but according to the website the only distributor in Germany is in Munich. Well....I'll just have to find another excuse to make the trip (if I tell Mrs. Rock we were on a quest for speakers, she'd probably balk ;D ) I'd like to hear Thielemann before he departs. Maybe we'll get down to your neck of the woods this fall. Take in a concert with a side trip to the Thiel shop.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 09, 2010, 06:04:21 AM
I'd like to hear them (I've been considering replacing my old Polk bookshelves in my den) but according to the website the only distributor in Germany is in Munich. Well....I'll just have to find another excuse to make the trip (if I tell Mrs. Rock we were on a quest for speakers, she'd probably balk ;D ) I'd like to hear Thielemann before he departs. Maybe we'll get down to your neck of the woods this fall. Take in a concert with a side trip to the Thiel shop.
Sarge
If you let me know well ahead of time, I could probably arrange something on the ticket front for you & Ms. Rock. I know where the Thiel shop is, too... what had kept me from the purchase so far was the steep premium one had to pay in Europe over their perfectly reasonable cost in the US. But a good deal of that has evaporated with the currencies moving toward each other. They're not the grooviest speakers, but I loved their response, their precision and accuracy, how explosive and immediate everything sounded on them... total detail. Perfect for a smallish place or room (like mine), perfect for detail-fetishists, perfect for 5.1 (w/subwoofer).
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 09, 2010, 04:28:29 AM
I assume you read this last night:
He's right. Through my Canton Ventos in my main listening room the recording sounds spectacular. But last night, listening to "mid-fi" speakers attached to my computer, clarity was lost. The viola and cello turned to mud. It was difficult to hear individual lines. The performance is exciting as hell so I didn't mind but I want to second Jens' warning. If you think the sound might be a problem for you, you should consider one of his other choices.
Sarge
I assume most forum members have "audiophile" grade audio equipments for critical listening ...
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 09, 2010, 05:23:59 AM
Altec Lansing ACS340. Picture here (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310210639943&rvr_id=&crlp=1_263602_263622&UA=WVF%3F&GUID=08d2c2811290a03662a6fe76ffe72761&itemid=310210639943&ff4=263602_263622)
Sarge
I see. I suspected you would characterize my Polk Lsi9's "mid-fi" drek.
(http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/pics/polk_lsi9_front.jpg)
In any case, maybe I should forget about it. I was pretty disappointed with the Cherubini recording of Opus 80. Given that the piece was supposedly inspired by the death of Felix's dear sister Fanny I was expecting to hear a hint of the animal howl in it. Instead it sounded like an extra-fussy version of Mozart. Given that the Cherubini seems to get respect, I've grown skeptical that the Leipzig quartet will bring any particular enlightenment.
Quote from: jlaurson on July 09, 2010, 06:10:18 AM
If you let me know well ahead of time, I could probably arrange something on the ticket front for you & Ms. Rock. I know where the Thiel shop is, too... what had kept me from the purchase so far was the steep premium one had to pay in Europe over their perfectly reasonable cost in the US.
Yeah, that's often a problem with American products in Germany especially when something is only available through a specialty shop. What do they cost here (he asks, bracing himself)?
Sarge
Quote from: Scarpia on July 09, 2010, 06:13:20 AM
I see. I suspected you would characterize my Polk Lsi9's "mid-fi" drek.
No, I don't make those kind of judgments, especially when I haven't even heard the speakers. I'm reasonably happy with my own Polks...but they are getting on (twenty-five years old soon) which is why I'm thinking of a replacement.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 09, 2010, 06:17:34 AM
No, I don't make those kind of judgments, especially when I haven't even heard the speakers. I'm reasonably happy with my own Polks...but they are getting on (twenty-five years old soon) which is why I'm thinking of a replacement.
Sarge
Which ones do you have?
I am very suspicious of any speaker that contains any technology that is not absolutely standard. The reason is that I have observed that the brilliant innovation being lauded in the audiophile magazines today will have vanished from the marketplace in 5 years. Remember when you could read about nothing but these:
(http://www.minhembio.com/forum/uploads/monthly_09_2009/post-72690-1253190406.jpg)
Quote from: Scarpia on July 09, 2010, 06:28:06 AM
I have observed that the brilliant innovation being lauded in the audiophile magazines today will have vanished from the marketplace in 5 years.
:o :o :o
Quote from: Scarpia on July 09, 2010, 06:28:06 AM
Which ones do you have?
Polk Monitor 5B
(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/goodmusic/System4.jpg)
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 09, 2010, 06:13:48 AM
Yeah, that's often a problem with American products in Germany especially when something is only available through a specialty shop. What do they cost here (he asks, bracing himself)?
Sarge
I think they were € 2400,- a pair. Compared to $ 1000,- per piece in the US. The difference was huge, then... but now it's shrunk considerably. And if we both get a pair, surely we can get an additional discount, no? ;D
FYI: Just published a piece on Nagano leaving Munich for Deutsche Welle: http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,5779005,00.html (http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,5779005,00.html)
Quote from: jlaurson on July 09, 2010, 05:44:19 AM
It wasn't until I heard the recordings on these puppies, that I discovered their 'hidden' audiophile nature:
Thiel SCS4 (http://www.thielaudio.com/THIEL_Site05/Pages/models/Current_Models/SCS4/SCS4_main.shtml)
(http://www.blogcdn.com/hd.engadget.com/media/2008/12/20081207-thielscs4-preview.jpg)
Jens - those look like some great speakers that could go on a bookshelf (my only option in the den) in either a vertical or horizontal position - might need to see if I can 'audition' them locally!
I still have a set of ElectroVoice (EV) speakers I bought in the late 1970s for about $500 (mail order; running $700 in town - actually a lot of money back then), but they just work out well in my den; in fact, I had the passive radiators and woofers re-built locally last year - sound as good as new! Dave :D
Quote from: SonicMan on July 09, 2010, 07:22:22 AM
Jens - those look like some great speakers that could go on a bookshelf (my only option in the den) in either a vertical or horizontal position - might need to see if I can 'audition' them locally!
I still have a set of ElectroVoice (EV) speakers I bought in the late 1970s for about $500 (mail order; running $700 in town - actually a lot of money back then), but they just work out well in my den; in fact, I had the passive radiators and woofers re-built locally last year - sound as good as new! Dave :D
I still use that 30-year old Tandberg amp to power one of my 5 sound systems at my house. It sounds as sweet as ever ...
Quote from: jlaurson on July 09, 2010, 07:08:54 AM
I think they were € 2400,- a pair.
Ouch. That is a lot. The Canton Vento 809DC can be bought for €1700 a pair...not that they would fit easily into my 3x4.5 den. Just using that speaker as a price comparison.
Sarge
Quote from: SonicMan on July 09, 2010, 07:22:22 AM
Jens - those look like some great speakers that could go on a bookshelf (my only option in the den) in either a vertical or horizontal position - might need to see if I can 'audition' them locally!
I still have a set of ElectroVoice (EV) speakers I bought in the late 1970s for about $500 (mail order; running $700 in town - actually a lot of money back then), but they just work out well in my den; in fact, I had the passive radiators and woofers re-built locally last year - sound as good as new! Dave :D
They're very small, but they pack a punch that is truly admirable. We worked them hard, too, in at least five rounds of auditions against 7 other pairs. There are still a few pairs that I'd like to compare them to (Tannoy Definition DC8, Sonics Arkadia, Sonics Argenta, Canton Reference 9.2DC, Sonus Faber Liuto Monitor, ME Geithain ME25), but all of those are more expensive; none are known for being as detailed. I couldn't even listen to B&W for too long; they tried to beautify everything and I felt like I was being had 1984-like; shown a distorted 'perfectly harmonious' picture that doesn't actually exist in the reality beneath it. The only test where the Thiels were notably outperformed were the grooves of Salif Keita on M'Bemba (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000F3UADE?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000F3UADE). The oomph was still awesome, but the speaker felt a little like a classical audience sitting in Salif's concert; going with the rhythm and enjoying themselves, but looking slightly awkward in the process. But all was forgiven and forgotten when Paavo Jaervi's Eroica (RCA, Bremen Chamber Phil (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1409)) shot out at me, like a quick punch to the face, right in the kisser.
Quote from: jlaurson on July 09, 2010, 06:10:18 AM
They're [Thiel] not the grooviest speakers, but I loved their response, their precision and accuracy, how explosive and immediate everything sounded on them... total detail. Perfect for a smallish place or room (like mine), perfect for detail-fetishists, perfect for 5.1 (w/subwoofer).
Well, coming in late to this discussion, but based on your description of your speakers I'd say they definitely ARE groovy! :D In fact, your description sounds a lot like how I'd describe my six-year-old Revel M20 stand-mounts. Same characteristics.
Impressive performance from a "small" box.
Well, for those becoming enthused over the Thiel speaker(s) discussed in several posts previously - I've been checking the pricing at Amazon & at Crutchfield, $990 per speaker, so 2000 bucks for a pair!
Out of curiosity, I checked a dollar inflation calculator - my OLD speakers (purchased about 1978) were $500 (not including shipping) - their current 'cost' in 2010 would be $1,740, so about the same if one wants to look at the replacement in that way? ;D
(http://a248.e.akamai.net/pix.crutchfield.com/products/2009/03/684/x684SCS4DC-f.jpeg)
Quote from: SonicMan on July 10, 2010, 05:16:02 AM
Well, for those becoming enthused over the Thiel speaker(s) discussed in several posts previously - I've been checking the pricing at Amazon & at Crutchfield, $990 per speaker, so 2000 bucks for a pair!
(http://a248.e.akamai.net/pix.crutchfield.com/products/2009/03/684/x684SCS4DC-f.jpeg)
Yep... I said $1000,- per speaker (2400 Euro per pair) earlier. They're a bargain in the US, compared to the speakers that come even near its quality. (Assuming one likes the characteristics, which are almost monitor-like.)
Quote from: Scarpia on July 09, 2010, 06:28:06 AM
Which ones do you have?
I am very suspicious of any speaker that contains any technology that is not absolutely standard. The reason is that I have observed that the brilliant innovation being lauded in the audiophile magazines today will have vanished from the marketplace in 5 years. Remember when you could read about nothing but these:
(http://www.minhembio.com/forum/uploads/monthly_09_2009/post-72690-1253190406.jpg)
Omnidirectional speakers never caught on. That's too bad since the tradeoff is a good one. You give up that fake sweet spot imaging (which is nothing like live music) for a decent stereo image all over the room. The sound remains coherent even when walking around. I could stand right next to one of my Ohm F's and hear the other perfectly. I imagine this would be a good solution for movie sound as well.
I have long ago given up the idea that the differences between speakers must be differences in quality that are "not subtle" or "jaw dropping". It''s too much work to maintain that illusion against the evidence that the great majority of mainstream speakers are competently designed. Find the ones you like and stop worrying.
Incidentally, Ohm Speakers is still in business selling directly on the web. They have 2 lines, roughly big ones and little ones. The Walsh driver has undergone some refinement and a supertweeter has been added. I haven't heard any of these "new" ones (they've been around for a long time).
(http://www.sitesandsounds.us/eze/eze5/items/ohm_400_ohm_speakers_thousand_series.jpg)
(http://www.ohmspeakers.com/microwalshlightwhiteoak.jpg)
Quote from: jlaurson on July 09, 2010, 07:35:40 AM
There are still a few pairs that I'd like to compare them to (Tannoy Definition DC8, Sonics Arkadia, Sonics Argenta, Canton Reference 9.2DC, Sonus Faber Liuto Monitor, ME Geithain ME25), but all of those are more expensive; none are known for being as detailed. I couldn't even listen to B&W for too long; they tried to beautify everything and I felt like I was being had 1984-like; shown a distorted 'perfectly harmonious' picture that doesn't actually exist in the reality beneath it.
Probably not the size or budget you had in mind, but the Sonics Allegra and B&W 802D belong to the very small set of box speakers that I thoroughly enjoy (and I don't like B&W in general, but the 802 with Spectral electronics were magical). In any case, I prefer ribbons/electrostatics and it would be very unlikely that I would go back to box speakers.