The finale question was a very good one. But this one courts controversy! Even heresy!
Beware - for here you shall start arguments and make enemies...
I shall begin:
Beethoven 9
Dvorak 4
Martinu 4
Shostakovich 10
Prokofiev 5
Quote from: Brian on October 06, 2015, 04:34:13 AM
The finale question was a very good one.
I don't know. I don't think I ever really understood that question [either].
0:)
Quote from: Brian on October 06, 2015, 04:34:13 AM
The finale question was a very good one.
No, it wasn't. I think the best movement in LvB 9 in the slow movement in any case.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on October 06, 2015, 04:40:11 AM
No, it wasn't. I think the best movement in LvB 9 in the slow movement in any case.
I am inclined to agree.
Quote from: Brian on October 06, 2015, 04:34:13 AM
Beethoven 9
Shostakovich 10
You are my friend, regarding Beethoven's 9th. Yet, my enemy regarding Shostakovich's 10th. ;D That opening movement is so amazing!
Dvořák 8
Mahler 5
um... Myaskovsky 9 maybe
Prokofiev Symphony-Concerto? does that count?
The movement in Berwald 3 that contains a scherzo is the best, is that cheating?
I'm running out of ideas
Quote from: amw on October 06, 2015, 04:47:09 AM
Prokofiev Symphony-Concerto? does that count?
I like your thought!
I will say that the scherzo of Beethoven's first Rasumufsky Quartet may not necessarily by the "best" movement in that piece, but I consider it one of his most interesting and original scherzos. It juggles 6-7 separate themes and I once found by analyzing it that it touches almost every one of the 12 key centers except for the simple subdominant. Its form is so unusual that some have described it as ABA and some as sonata form, but it doesn't seem to fit either pattern. But then the rest of the quartet is pretty good too, except the somewhat clunky finale.
Symphonies where the scherzo/minuet is best? Otherwise that's a hard one, because often the s/m is a point of lowered tension and complexity as compared to its surroundings - as in the Eroica.
Mahler 5
Rott E major
Dvorak 6 (first and last mvmts are too indebted to Brahms)
maybe Schumann 3 but the 2nd movement is not a typical scherzo and I still prefer the first and the "Cologne Cathedral" (4th)
in Beethoven's first symphony the menuetto (it's actually a scherzo) might be the most "Beethovenian" of the four but I still would not prefer it to the first mvmt.
I don't know enough 20th century symphonies well enough, so I run out of candidates... My favorite post-Mahler symphony is only in Three Movements.
The Queen Mab scherzo in Berlioz's very uneven Romeo and Juliette. But the Love Scene is at least its equal.
Havergal Brian Symphony No.1 "Gothic" (third movement Vivace)
Hans Rott Symphony in E Major
Dvorak Symphony No.4 D minor
Sarge
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on October 06, 2015, 05:05:42 AM
The Queen Mab scherzo in Berlioz's very uneven Romeo and Juliette. But the Love Scene is at least its equal.
Every time you mention the Queen Mab scherzo - which is wonderfully often - I go and listen to it 3 or 4 times in a row. Boston/Munch now. It's a little miracle.
Maybe it's my taste in scherzos, but many "Mendelssohnian" scherzos qualify for this thread. Mendelssohn's Scottish, most of the Raff symphonies, and since you provisionally expanded the discussion to chamber music, the scherzos are often my favorite parts of Mendelssohn quartets/trios/octet.
But Berlioz may have set the gold standard.
Quote from: Brian on October 06, 2015, 06:52:58 AM
Every time you mention the Queen Mab scherzo - which is wonderfully often - I go and listen to it 3 or 4 times in a row. Boston/Munch now. It's a little miracle.
I think I'll do the same right now.
What next, a thread "Symphonies where the pauses between movements are the best part"?
Schnittke has it locked up.
Since this can be nothing other than an opinion question, my favorite movement of the Eroica is the scherzo, so since it is one of my top 3 symphonies, I guess that'll be it. :)
8)
Quote from: Brian on October 06, 2015, 06:52:58 AM
Maybe it's my taste in scherzos, but many "Mendelssohnian" scherzos qualify for this thread. Mendelssohn's Scottish, most of the Raff symphonies, and since you provisionally expanded the discussion to chamber music, the scherzos are often my favorite parts of Mendelssohn quartets/trios/octet.
I like Mendelssohn's scherzos but I hardly ever think they are the best movement from a multi-movement work. If this is the case there is usually "something wrong" with the other movements... Would you really say that the short and light scherzo from Mendelssohn's Scottish is better than the first movement of that piece?
Mahler 5 is an exception because the massive scherzo is mediating between the tragic first two and the more lightweight last two movements. Rott's scherzo is the best because it's the most "Mahlerian" and the other movements are flawed.
Quote from: Ken B on October 06, 2015, 07:12:47 AM
What next, a thread "Symphonies where the pauses between movements are the best part"?
Ah, if only 4′33″ were a symphony...
Quote from: Ken B on October 06, 2015, 07:12:47 AM
What next, a thread "Symphonies where the pauses between movements are the best part"?
Schnittke has it locked up.
Not Turangaganglia?
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 06, 2015, 07:29:35 AM
Since this can be nothing other than an opinion question, my favorite movement of the Eroica is the scherzo, so since it is one of my top 3 symphonies, I guess that'll be it. :)
8)
Well, it is an adrenaline rush, to be sure! :) I love the contrast between the weighty, deep Funeral March 2nd movement followed by a fast and furious performance of this scherzo. It's brilliant!
Quote from: Brian on October 06, 2015, 04:34:13 AM
Martinu 4
This is a good one. I'm tempted to put forth Martinu 1 also.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 06, 2015, 05:11:02 AM
Havergal Brian Symphony No.1 "Gothic" (third movement Vivace)
Yeah, that's a hair-raising experience.
Add:
Bruckner 3
Schumann 2
Beethoven 4
Arnold 4 (this floating, sinister, palindromic little scherzo might be my favorite symphonic movement by him)
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 06, 2015, 09:39:24 AM
Bruckner 3
Also a good call.
Purely my opinion here:
Bruckner 4, first version: the scherzo is the worst part
Bruckner 4, final version: the scherzo is the best part
Bruckner: Symphony 8
Martinu: Symphony 4
Rubbra: Symphony 5
Williamson: Symphony 1 'Elavimini'
Shostakovich: Symphony 8 (the movement with the prominent trumpet)
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on October 06, 2015, 05:05:42 AM
The Queen Mab scherzo in Berlioz's very uneven Romeo and Juliette. But the Love Scene is at least its equal.
The Scene d'amour slightly edges out Queen Mab for me (and possibly for Berlioz himself, who apparently thought it was his finest achievement? according to someone? i wish i knew where i read that). But Queen Mab is one of the best in the repertoire, and certainly the best scherzo I routinely forget about only to rediscover to great delight.
As far as Mendelssohn's scherzi go, the only two cases I can think of where the scherzo is head and shoulders above the rest of the movements are the Piano Trio Op. 49 and the String Octet Op. 20. The other movements in those works are also superb, but perhaps not quite at the same level of immortality.
Does the finale of Bax 6 count? The main body of it is a Scherzo & Trio, but it has a slow introduction and epilogue on either side.
Quote from: vandermolen on October 07, 2015, 12:34:15 AM
Shostakovich: Symphony 8 (the movement with the prominent trumpet)
The
galop . . . love that one.
Quote from: karlhenning on October 07, 2015, 04:04:00 AM
The galop . . . love that one.
ie. Shostakovich 8th - 3rd movement
What a great one that is indeed,
Jeffrey and
Karl! :)
Quote from: ChamberNut on October 07, 2015, 04:50:30 AM
ie. Shostakovich 8th - 3rd movement
What a great one that is indeed, Jeffrey and Karl! :)
Glad you think so. I once saw it used (along with the doom-laden opening of the slow movement) as accompanying music for a BBC School's History documentary about Stalin - it was very suitable I thought.
Quote from: amw on October 07, 2015, 01:37:56 AM
The Scene d'amour slightly edges out Queen Mab for me (and possibly for Berlioz himself, who apparently thought it was his finest achievement? according to someone? i wish i knew where i read that). But Queen Mab is one of the best in the repertoire, and certainly the best scherzo I routinely forget about only to rediscover to great delight.
As far as Mendelssohn's scherzi go, the only two cases I can think of where the scherzo is head and shoulders above the rest of the movements are the Piano Trio Op. 49 and the String Octet Op. 20. The other movements in those works are also superb, but perhaps not quite at the same level of immortality.
I more or less agree, but I would also add the scherzo to the Midsummer Night's Dream music, even though that's not really a symphony (though it nearly becomes one when the standard extracts are played together).
Toscanini used to perform the scherzo from op. 20 as a standalone piece arranged for string orchestra.
Actually Brahms is the composer I think of where it comes to scherzi/minuets/scherzo substitutes—they're often highlights of the work and display a wider range of invention, character and interest than almost any other composer.
eg. Symphonies 3 & 4*, Piano Trio 1, Piano Concerto 2, Piano Quintet, Cello Sonata 1, String Quartets 1 & 3, Piano Quartet 2 and there are probably more that aren't coming to mind straightaway. All with completely different profiles, a good mix of characters, memorable ideas and often the best part of the piece (or close to it).
* I know everyone prefers the last movement of Symphony 4, but the scherzo (or whatever it is) is a real tour de force on its own
I like the variety of Brahms 3rd (or sometimes 2nd) movements. But in some cases I am just not too fond of the actual movements, e.g. in the string quartets 1 and 3.
The 3rd in the 3rd really seems like a cliche of "Aimez-vous Brahms?" autumnal variety (and IIRC it was done to death in that movie) and the 3rd of the 4th seems like an ironic destruction both of its own scherzo/march material and of the melancholy mood of the rest of the symphony. I admire it to some extent (like some of the other movements mentioned) but I do not really love it.
My favorite orchestral Brahms "scherzo" by far is the one from the 2nd piano concerto.
Symphonies where the scherzo is actually my favorite movement:
Shostakovich 10
Brahms 3 (if that counts)
Dvorak 6
Beethoven 5
Bernstein 1
Raff 5
Enescu 3
Borodin 3
Bruckner 2
Dopper 2
Ikuma Dan 4
Symphonies where the scherzo isn't necessarily my favorite movement but it really stands out:
Shostakovich 5 and 9
Bruckner 9
Dvorak 7 and 8
Arnold 2 and 5
Korngold
Walton 1
Elgar 1 and 2
RVW 6 and 9
Beethoven 7
Tchaikovsky Manfred
Casella 3
Prokofiev 3
Rachmaninoff 1 and 2
Melartin 3
Schmidt 4
Hanson 3
Sibelius 2 and 6
Braga Santos 3 and 4
Moroi 3
My favorite scherzi are usually in works that are so good altogether that I really hesitate to single out the scherzo. E.g. Beethoven's 5th, 7th and 9th, Bruckner's 9th (I think in almost all other Bruckner symphonies the scherzo is my least favorite), Mahler's 9th... or in non-symphonies Beethoven's op. 59/1 or 127, Chopin's 2nd sonata.
I guess I'll stick with my candidates above: Mahler's 5th and Dvorak's 6th.
Maybe Tchaikovsky's 4th. But I have to check some of the ones mentioned by others I am not so familiar with.
Quote from: Jo498 on November 02, 2017, 11:02:45 AM
Dvorak's 6th.
Forgot about this one - totally agree. I've amended my list accordingly.
Dvorak 6 and Mahler 9: totally agree.
Bruckner 1 (I love the whole thing but the scherzo stands out).
Mendelssohn 3
Mozart 39
Dvorak 7
Shostakovich 5. I know: that adagio is the bee's knees. But for me the scherzo upstages it.
Elgar 2. This is one mean movement.
Quote from: André on November 02, 2017, 04:59:18 PM
Shostakovich 5. I know: that adagio is the bee's knees. But for me the scherzo upstages it.
Agree with this André - love that Scherzo!. :)
Now that I think of it: Which one should count as scherzo in Mahler's 9th? The Laendler or the Rondo-Burleske? Probably the former but both have scherzo elements.
I'm sticking with Dvořák 8 and Mahler 5 and I guess should add:
Ives 4 ("Comedy")
Robert Simpson 9 (although the scherzo isn't a separate movement, but it's tracked as one in the box set, so >.>)
Karl Amadeus Hartmann 4 (for string orchestra)
Bruckner 1, 0 & 4 (1878/80 version)
Brahms 4 (yes, better than the finale passacaglia 8) )
I know a symphony where scherzo is the worst movement - Bruckner 7. And the previous slow movement was coincidentally the greatest he ever composed, IMHO.
Quote from: Jo498 on November 02, 2017, 11:50:09 PM
Now that I think of it: Which one should count as scherzo in Mahler's 9th? The Laendler or the Rondo-Burleske? Probably the former but both have scherzo elements.
I was thinking the 3rd movement.
Quote from: Alberich on November 03, 2017, 04:09:42 AM
Brahms 4 (yes, better than the finale passacaglia 8) )
Wrong thread. This belongs in the Unpopular Opinions thread ;D
Sarge
Some quick picks:
Mozart 40
Haydn 104
Beethoven 5
Beethoven 9
Brahms 3 (3rd movement not really a scherzo, but still...)
Bruckner 1
Bruckner 4 ('standard' or 'final' version)
Mahler 5