What are the symphonies most expressive of 'tragedy' - you can define this however you like. An absurd thread I know and not, I point out, deliberately timed to coincide with the American election or the UK Brexit fiasco.
My choices:
Tchaikovsky: Pathetique Symphony
Shostakovich: Symphony 4
Bruckner: Symphony 9
Vaughan Williams: Symphony 6
To me the Tchaikovsky reflects a personal tragedy and the Shostakovich a national one - I know this is all highly subjective.
Have fun. 8)
Shostakovich 11
Suk Asrael
Mahler 6
Brian 10
Quote from: vandermolen on November 08, 2016, 12:32:06 AM
What are the symphonies most expressive of 'tragedy' - you can define this however you like. An absurd thread I know and not, I point out, timed to coincide with the American election or the UK Brexit fiasco.
These are more farces than tragedies, no matter if repetitions or not.
Quote from: springrite on November 08, 2016, 12:43:03 AM
Shostakovich 11
Suk Asrael
Mahler 6
Brian 10
Thanks Paul. What great choices! I'm jealous not to have chosen 'Asrael' myself - a most wonderful and moving symphony, which seems to end on a tentative and hard-won acceptance following his tragic double bereavement of Dvorak and his wife. Brian too ends end, in the words on Harold Truscott, I think, with a sense of hard-won though lasting victory. I nearly chose the Maher myself and the Shostakovich is one of my favourites too. :)
Quote from: Jo498 on November 08, 2016, 12:55:37 AM
These are more farces than tragedies, no matter if repetitions or not.
Good point. :)
Tchaikovsky 6 (Pathetique)
Sibelius 4
Um... that's all I've got right now.
Is there anything more tragic than the Sibelius 8th?
Quote from: The new erato on November 08, 2016, 04:34:23 AM
Is there anything more tragic than the Sibelius 8th?
Ha. I thought we were aiming for tragedy IN the music, not about the music.
Vaughan Williams 4
Mahler 6
Dvorak 7
Schmidt 4
Quote from: The new erato on November 08, 2016, 04:34:23 AM
Is there anything more tragic than the Sibelius 8th?
All the surviving
Segerstam symphonies perhaps? >:D
Quote from: North Star on November 08, 2016, 05:25:11 AM
All the surviving Segerstam symphonies perhaps? >:D
They do all survive, don't they?!...
Hmmm - only four.
Well, OK:
Tchaikovsky 6
Shostakovich 4 or 13 (can't make up my mind which)
Pettersson 9
Mahler 6
But this is like choosing just eight discs to take to a desert island...
Bruckner 7 - with the slow movement tribute to Wagner
Miaskovsky 6 - to me the end reflects a deeply personal sense of loss with the Orthodox hymn at the end, his father killed by the Bolsheviks etc.
Shostakovich 8 - the tragedy of Stalin's regime
Elgar 2 - the loss of the liberal age of pre- WWI
Maybe
Mahler 9
Mahler 10
Pettersson 6
Tchaikovsky 6
Nobody's voted for Brahms 4??!?!?!
Quote from: Brian on November 08, 2016, 08:47:55 AM
Nobody's voted for Brahms 4??!?!?!
Yeah, it was going to be one of mine.
Quote from: Brian on November 08, 2016, 08:47:55 AM
Nobody's voted for Brahms 4??!?!?!
I almost did...but then I thought better of it when I imagined Karl's response ;D
Sarge
Tchaikovsky 6
Shostakovich, Babi Yar
Beethoven 7, allegretto (it was used to great effect in a movie I barely remember that took place in Europe in WWII).
Mahler 9
A number of choices include my favourite symphonies:
Miaskovsky Symphony 6 and I agree about it reflecting the tragedy of his father murdered by the Bolsheviks.
Pettersson Symphony 6 'the long struggle towards the sunrise'
Schmidt Symphony 4 another great choice.
Thanks for ALL the responses.
Quote from: The new erato on November 08, 2016, 04:34:23 AM
Is there anything more tragic than the Sibelius 8th?
Yes. Turangalila.
>:D ;)
I second Orfeo, Tchaik 6 and Sibelius 4, which has to be the bleakest. Also Gorecki, 3 (Sorrowful Songs).
Quote from: Jay F on November 08, 2016, 09:24:32 AM
Beethoven 7, allegretto (it was used to great effect in a movie I barely remember that took place in Europe in WWII).
Absolutely!
Quote from: vandermolen on November 08, 2016, 12:32:06 AM
What are the symphonies most expressive of 'tragedy'
Mahler #6
Shostakovich #8
Shostakovich #14
Tchaikovsky: Pathetique Symphony
Quote from: Brian on November 08, 2016, 08:47:55 AM
Nobody's voted for Brahms 4??!?!?!
Just going to - been thinking about this all the live long day! And whilst doing so some of the symphonies I had in mind were mentioned:
and
Górecki 3
Miaskovsky 6
Tchaik's 6 - not a big fan of his but this is truly magnificent.
Isn't it interesting that Schubert's 4th is titled "Tragic?" (he wrote that on the score but I think he was thinking of his mom's
Kartoffelpuffer).
Shostakovich #13 babi.yar
Brahms # 4
Rachmaninov Isle of the dead
Quote from: Spineur on November 08, 2016, 01:15:40 PM
Rachmaninov Isle of the dead
Is it a symphony, though?
I thought quite hard about whether to include Pettersson in my answer to this. In the end I think I felt that what Pettersson expresses is beyond simple tragedy. To me it is a deep expression of catharsis.
On the subject of tragedy, I think Weinberg 12, In Memoriam Dmitri Shostakovich probably deserves a shout.
I think there´s more variation to Pettersson´s individual symphonies than perhaps often thought of.
As regards the 6th, it´s an hour of slow music & there´s no real idyll or triumph at the end; I tend to think of it more as a lamento with built-in, expressive contrasts, the Kamu recording being my favourite.
Malcolm Arnold: Symphony No. 9
Mahler: Symphony No. 9
Vaughan Williams: Symphony No. 9
Tchaikovsky: Symphony No. 6
Great thread!
Pettersson 9
Tchaikovsky 6
Arnold 9
Mahler 6
Asraël and Mahler 9 as well as more Petterssons could have been included. I might change my mind in a few months.
Quote from: Ghost Sonata on November 08, 2016, 01:06:22 PM
and
Górecki 3
Miaskovsky 6
Tchaik's 6 - not a big fan of his but this is truly magnificent.
Isn't it interesting that Schubert's 4th is titled "Tragic?" (he wrote that on the score but I think he was thinking of his mom's Kartoffelpuffer).
That's not a viennese/austrian dish... rather Kaiserschmarrn or Topfenstrudel.
I guess he was trying out the "tragic" mode and not quite succeeded. A finished Schubert b minor might qualify for the thread but as it stands the andante is too serene, I think.
Quote from: North Star on November 08, 2016, 01:16:16 PM
Is it a symphony, though?
The choral symphony 'The Bells' could be a candidate here.
Conventional as fuck answers:
Sibelius 4
Brahms 4
Tchaikovsky 6
Mahler 6
Honestly? For my non-conventional choice, Arnold 7. Yes, it's light music, ok, fine. But something in the way the music becomes increasingly surreal over the course of the work is very effective at expressing an eventual slide into alienation and nausea, more so than anything I can think of by Shostakovich. It's a tragedy without catharsis (or perhaps more accurately, where the catharsis is subverted and denied, with undoubtedly the most brutal series of F major chords in the repertoire).
I think when I try to categorise things as tragedies I look for musical works that
(a) have the potential to go either way—i.e. not limp and lifeless from the get-go;
(b) make use of carefully positioned hopeful moments;
(c) make use of elements signalling alienation and loss of hope;
(d) bring about the "downfall" or failure of something—a theme or idea, a traditional structure, "normal" musical ideas of finality, etc;
(e) this failure is experienced as being, in the end, inevitable (even if initially surprising or "unfair");
(f) through experiencing this failure we have at least the promise of catharsis
So on point (a) something like Pettersson 6 which starts in utter darkness, manages to raise itself up towards a hope of redemption, and fails but achieves catharsis through a nice and hopeful melody after the end is not really what I'd consider a tragedy; it made it that far, after all. Something that starts limp and lifeless and stays that way for the entire piece also isn't much of a tragedy. Tragedy has to start out in a better place than it ends. On point (b) I'd have to exclude something unremittingly grim and dark like Górecki 3. Point (c), yeah. Most pieces do have these, it's just the conventional path is to gradually remove them whereas the tragic path is for them to multiply. Point (d) is pretty obvious and we could use it to make the case for, e.g. Nielsen 6 or Prokofiev 6 as also being tragic, by that standard. Points (e) and (f) would militate against completely unprepared "downer endings", which are not really a common feature in music anyway for the most part.
Quote from: relm1 on November 08, 2016, 03:32:48 PM
Malcolm Arnold: Symphony No. 9
Mahler: Symphony No. 9
Vaughan Williams: Symphony No. 9
Tchaikovsky: Symphony No. 6
I thought of including all these apart from the Tchaikovsky. The VW 9 might have been a better choice than my own one of No.6.
Quote from: vandermolen on November 09, 2016, 04:38:04 AM
Malcolm Arnold: Symphony No. 9
Mahler: Symphony No. 9
Vaughan Williams: Symphony No. 9
Tchaikovsky: Symphony No. 6
I thought of including all these apart from the Tchaikovsky. The VW 9 might have been a better choice than my own one of No.6.
I think it is interesting to realize that each from my list was the composers last symphony (well except for Mahler who completed the writing of his 10th) but it seems to say there might be a retrospective bitterness in display at the end of their life.
Quote from: André on November 08, 2016, 03:47:10 PM
Great thread!
Pettersson 9
Tchaikovsky 6
Arnold 9
Mahler 6
Asraël and Mahler 9 as well as more Petterssons could have been included. I might change my mind in a few months.
Thank you Andre! :)
All great choices too. I need to get my head around Pettersson No.9 - totally agree about the Arnold although I think that Symphony No.6 would qualify too.
Quote from: Ghost Sonata on November 08, 2016, 01:06:22 PM
Just going to - been thinking about this all the live long day! And whilst doing so some of the symphonies I had in mind were mentioned:
and
Górecki 3
Miaskovsky 6
Tchaik's 6 - not a big fan of his but this is truly magnificent.
Isn't it interesting that Schubert's 4th is titled "Tragic?" (he wrote that on the score but I think he was thinking of his mom's Kartoffelpuffer).
I like all these choices - so many great work. I agree about Tchaikovsky.
My List No.2 (I've tried to choose hitherto unmentioned works):
Nielsen: Symphony 6
Honegger: Symphony 5
Glazunov: Symphony 8
Prokofiev: Symphony 6
Bruckner 7 (because of that wonderful adagio)
Sibelius 4
Mahler 6
Beethoven 7 (such a sunny work on the whole, but that one movement is so powerfully tragic that I think it counts as much as tragic as a merry symphony).
Conventional choices, once again.
Quote from: Alberich on November 10, 2016, 08:52:25 AM
Beethoven 7 (such a sunny work on the whole, but that one movement is so powerfully tragic that I think it counts as much as tragic as a merry symphony).
(Forgive me if taking your post as the
point d'appui seems to be singling you out; I mean you no such discourtesy.)
First: I think this underscores the problem with the premise. There is a contrast among the several movements which is inherent to (let's say) most symphonies, which makes the practice of boiling a symphony down to a single affect inartistic, unsatisfying, and more than anything, unfair to the composer.
Second: Is the
Allegretto of the
Op.92 "tragic"? I'm not sure that's the right word, even for the 'A' material in A Minor, let alone for the movement as a whole, let alone for the
symphony as a whole.
(Not saying that you all should not carry on and enjoy the exercise; just wanted to get this off my musical chest.)
No offense taken, Karl. You made several very good points.
Quote from: Alberich on November 10, 2016, 09:35:48 AM
No offense taken, Karl. You made several very good points.
Thanks for being a good sport!
I would not call the allegretto from Beethoven's 7th tragic. It is "sombre" and while not a real funeral march it has some elements of a procession. But I do not hear tragic conflict, find it altogether more of a contrast to the other movements while remaining within the "apotheosis of dance" paradigm (if we follow it) because it is similar to a pavan or some other slow processional dance. If one compares it to the "clashes" in the Eroica funeral march or the coda of the first movement of Beethoven's 9th or to several Mahler movements it is not very dark or tragic.
Quote from: Jo498 on November 10, 2016, 10:02:18 AM
I would not call the allegretto from Beethoven's 7th tragic. It is "sombre" and while not a real funeral march it has some elements of a procession. But I do not hear tragic conflict, find it altogether more of a contrast to the other movements while remaining within the "apotheosis of dance" paradigm (if we follow it) because it is similar to a pavan or some other slow processional dance.
Good.
Karl's point reminds me to note something that's been on my mind about this thread and that is that, strictly-speaking, Tragedy has a well-defined meaning: "A serious drama in which a central character, the protagonist — usually an important, heroic person — meets with disaster either through some personal fault or through unavoidable circumstances. In most cases, the protagonist's downfall conveys a sense of human dignity in the face of great conflict." I don't believe all of our selections meet this stricter def., inc. several of my own. Of course, tragic can also mean your garden variety (my garden was) distress, sorrow and grief... But I do find it most interesting when a listener can perceive that a composer is writing about someone heroic - or himself - fighting against all odds. To me, Tchaik 6 and Brahms 4 (and certainly the latter's Tragic Overture) reflect this stricter interpretation. Which other works would you say do so?
Not a symphony but Beethoven's Coriolan Ouverture is a great example for me, especially the uncommon pp ending, apparently signifying the final defeat + death of the hero. In his symphonies, Beethoven as hero is always winning in the end although there is e.g. the Appassionata sonata with a "tragic" finale.
And Mahler's 6 does qualify as well whereas his 5 and 7 have a sudden optimistic turn at the end and the 2nd averts tragedy by divine intervention/transcendent hope.
I never really understood the finale of Sibelius 4th with these strange bells, is this supposed to be ironic or what? This symphony seems to begin very darkly but I do not quite sense the inevitable fate leading to disaster, rather it seems to get more ambiguous (not to say obviously "better" or resolved) in the finale.
Yeah, I don't get "tragic" unless the outcome is a bad one when there was a chance for a good one. My two choices reflect a sense that it all comes crashing down.
Quote from: Jo498 on November 10, 2016, 11:42:02 AM
Not a symphony but Beethoven's Coriolan Ouverture is a great example for me, especially the uncommon pp ending, apparently signifying the final defeat + death of the hero. In his symphonies, Beethoven as hero is always winning in the end although there is e.g. the Appassionata sonata with a "tragic" finale.
And Mahler's 6 does qualify as well whereas his 5 and 7 have a sudden optimistic turn at the end and the 2nd averts tragedy by divine intervention/transcendent hope.
I never really understood the finale of Sibelius 4th with these strange bells, is this supposed to be ironic or what? This symphony seems to begin very darkly but I do not quite sense the inevitable fate leading to disaster, rather it seems to get more ambiguous (not to say obviously "better" or resolved) in the finale.
Thanks, Jo, agree it's a
great example. I listened anew to it as I hadn't heard it in over a decade (gulp!) and it is one of my favorite of LvB's.
Quote from: Jo498 on November 10, 2016, 11:42:02 AM
Not a symphony but Beethoven's Coriolan Ouverture is a great example for me, especially the uncommon pp ending, apparently signifying the final defeat + death of the hero. In his symphonies, Beethoven as hero is always winning in the end although there is e.g. the Appassionata sonata with a "tragic" finale.
And Mahler's 6 does qualify as well whereas his 5 and 7 have a sudden optimistic turn at the end and the 2nd averts tragedy by divine intervention/transcendent hope.
I never really understood the finale of Sibelius 4th with these strange bells, is this supposed to be ironic or what? This symphony seems to begin very darkly but I do not quite sense the inevitable fate leading to disaster, rather it seems to get more ambiguous (not to say obviously "better" or resolved) in the finale.
Same here. I find Coriolan the epitome of tragedy in music. OTOH Sibeliu's 4th is "tragic" only in its 1st movement. The rest is a quest in the unknown, with a blink to another world in the last movement.
Quote from: Jo498 on November 10, 2016, 11:42:02 AMI never really understood the finale of Sibelius 4th with these strange bells, is this supposed to be ironic or what? This symphony seems to begin very darkly but I do not quite sense the inevitable fate leading to disaster, rather it seems to get more ambiguous (not to say obviously "better" or resolved) in the finale.
I think the finale of Sibelius's Fourth is a search for a triumphant ending that never arrives. It starts off jauntily and assertively but then rips itself apart, ending with a few disconsolate shreds of earlier motifs. All four movements of the work end in collapse and dissolution.
Schmidt - Symphony 4. In particular, Zubin Mehta and the VPO from 1971, released with full dynamics in 1990 - you would not think for a moment this recording was 45 years old. The piece itself is a "Requiem" for his lost daughter, and by all the Gods you will know this when you hear it. Probably one of the most tragic, life affirming (!?) recording of any Symphony. Wonderful. Emotional.
[asin]B00000E4J2[/asin]
Quote from: Mahlerian on November 10, 2016, 01:38:03 PM
I think the finale of Sibelius's Fourth is a search for a triumphant ending that never arrives. It starts off jauntily and assertively but then rips itself apart, ending with a few disconsolate shreds of earlier motifs. All four movements of the work end in collapse and dissolution.
Yes, this. The finale does, to me, collapse. In Ashkenazy's recordings with its magnificent brass, I can pinpoint when it happens.
Quote from: Scots John on November 10, 2016, 01:40:31 PM
Schmidt - Symphony 4. In particular, Zubin Mehta and the VPO from 1971, released with full dynamics in 1990 - you would not think for a moment this recording was 45 years old. The piece itself is a "Requiem" for his lost daughter, and by all the Gods you will know this when you hear it. Probably one of the most tragic, life affirming (!?) recording of any Symphony. Wonderful. Emotional.
[asin]B00000E4J2[/asin]
A stunner that one. Great choice too. My fourth slot was open. Filled now!
Quote from: Scots John on November 10, 2016, 01:40:31 PM
Schmidt - Symphony 4. In particular, Zubin Mehta and the VPO from 1971, released with full dynamics in 1990 - you would not think for a moment this recording was 45 years old. The piece itself is a "Requiem" for his lost daughter, and by all the Gods you will know this when you hear it. Probably one of the most tragic, life affirming (!?) recording of any Symphony. Wonderful. Emotional.
[asin]B00000E4J2[/asin]
I agree John - such a great disc. I had the old Decca LP and was always very moved by it. I agree that this is the best recording. Alexander Moyzes's Symphony 7 - his greatest I think - is also in memory of his daughter, who died young. Like Suk's great 'Asrael Symphony' it seems to arrive at a hard-won acceptance by the end. I find it more poignant than 'tragic' (it has a beautifully wistful opening theme) but it is certainly informed by tragedy:
[asin]B00005N8E0[/asin]
Quote from: Ghost Sonata on November 10, 2016, 10:19:31 AM
Karl's point reminds me to note something that's been on my mind about this thread and that is that, strictly-speaking, Tragedy has a well-defined meaning: "A serious drama in which a central character, the protagonist — usually an important, heroic person — meets with disaster either through some personal fault or through unavoidable circumstances. In most cases, the protagonist's downfall conveys a sense of human dignity in the face of great conflict." I don't believe all of our selections meet this stricter def., inc. several of my own. Of course, tragic can also mean your garden variety (my garden was) distress, sorrow and grief... But I do find it most interesting when a listener can perceive that a composer is writing about someone heroic - or himself - fighting against all odds. To me, Tchaik 6 and Brahms 4 (and certainly the latter's Tragic Overture) reflect this stricter interpretation. Which other works would you say do so?
Miaskovsky 6 'The Revolutionary' is about the closest thing I know to this definition. The conflict is a battle for the soul of Russia after 1917, something that the composer is very personally engaged with. The composer is protagonist on behalf of his people. The nervous first movement, limpid beauty of 'lost innocence' in the central movements and the powerful and deeply tragic finale, juxtaposing perky and banale revolutionary songs with a solemn Russian Orthodox burial hymn that finally silences them - combine to give this piece a very special and haunting atmosphere.
The composer's father, a Tsarist general was murdered during the revolution, as I believe, were various other family members. The use of the Orthodox hymn in the finale 'How the Soul Parted from the Body' - Shto mui vidyeli? – 'What did we see? A miraculous wonder, a dead body ...' remains one of the most interesting things about the piece. The version with the choir wailing pitifully at the end is the best, although Svetlanov's performance (unfortunately without the choir) is also very good.
Quote from: Androcles on November 12, 2016, 11:45:25 AM
Miaskovsky 6 'The Revolutionary' is about the closest thing I know to this definition. The conflict is a battle for the soul of Russia after 1917, something that the composer is very personally engaged with. The composer is protagonist on behalf of his people. The nervous first movement, limpid beauty of 'lost innocence' in the central movements and the powerful and deeply tragic finale, juxtaposing perky and banale revolutionary songs with a solemn Russian Orthodox burial hymn that finally silences them - combine to give this piece a very special and haunting atmosphere.
The composer's father, a Tsarist general was murdered during the revolution, as I believe, were various other family members. The use of the Orthodox hymn in the finale 'How the Soul Parted from the Body' - Shto mui vidyeli? – 'What did we see? A miraculous wonder, a dead body ...' remains one of the most interesting things about the piece. The version with the choir wailing pitifully at the end is the best, although Svetlanov's performance (unfortunately without the choir) is also very good.
Very interesting - I agree. I was very lucky to see this symphony live in London a few years ago - one of my greatest concert experiences. I attended a rehearsal too and met the conductor Jurowski. He told the choir to sing like 'Russian peasants'. I think that Miaskovsky's pre-revolutionary 3rd Symphony suggests the doomed and hopeless striving of its hero. It has a wonderfully gloomy ending, probably influenced by Tchaikovsky's 'Pathetique'. It could also be seen as a tragic work.
I haven't weighed in on this matter yet, but these spring to mind almost immediately:
Shostakovich: Symphony No. 8
Weinberg: Symphony No. 5
Pettersson: Symphony No. 7
Mahler: Symphony No. 9
I don't understand what's tragic about Mahler's Ninth. It doesn't end in the minor, it doesn't end in despair, it concludes in rarefied serenity and acceptance. All of the stuff about Mahler writing his farewell to the world is BS, as we know for a fact he had no clue that he would die in only 2 years.
Quote from: Mahlerian on November 13, 2016, 08:30:54 AM
I don't understand what's tragic about Mahler's Ninth. It doesn't end in the minor, it doesn't end in despair, it concludes in rarefied serenity and acceptance. All of the stuff about Mahler writing his farewell to the world is BS, as we know for a fact he had no clue that he would die in only 2 years.
A piece of music doesn't have to end tragically to be considered tragic IMHO. I think there's a sense of resignation in Mahler's 9th whether it was intended or not...it's what I hear. If I'm wrong for having this opinion and others disagree, oh well.
Edit: Personally, I think Mahler
did sense the end was near and the 9th was a symphony he poured his heart out over. It must have been difficult for him to compose it. In fact, the whole prospect of a 9th symphony, historically speaking, seems to bring out this quality in a lot of composers (or composers who actually make it to their 9th symphony).
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 13, 2016, 08:44:01 AM
A piece of music doesn't have to end tragically to be considered tragic IMHO. I think there's a sense of resignation in Mahler's 9th whether it was intended or not...it's what I hear. If I'm wrong for having this opinion and others disagree, oh well.
Edit: Personally, I think Mahler did sense the end was near and the 9th was a symphony he poured his heart out over. It must have been difficult for him to compose it. In fact, the whole prospect of a 9th symphony, historically speaking, seems to bring out this quality in a lot of composers (or composers who actually make it to their 9th symphony).
Around the time of the rehearsal of the Eighth (that is, after finishing the Ninth and drafting the Tenth), Mahler gave an interview in which he laid out his plans for the future. He said, among other things, that he wished to temporarily retire from conducting and become a full-time composer. He was not thinking about his own end, he was thinking about what to do next.
Like I said, we know
for a fact that the Ninth was not written to be a final valediction.
He poured his heart into the work, of course, and none of this diminishes the emotional impact of the symphony, but nothing could be worse for Mahler than to treat his music as merely a reflection of specific events or occurrences in his life, like autobiographical program music. Ask yourself, does the work
have to be Mahler writing about his own death in order to have the impact? Of course not; the music is exactly the same either way.
Quote from: Mahlerian on November 13, 2016, 08:52:55 AM
Around the time of the rehearsal of the Eighth (that is, after finishing the Ninth and drafting the Tenth), Mahler gave an interview in which he laid out his plans for the future. He said, among other things, that he wished to temporarily retire from conducting and become a full-time composer. He was not thinking about his own end, he was thinking about what to do next.
Like I said, we know for a fact that the Ninth was not written to be a final valediction.
And as I stated, this is what I feel from the 9th and there's no need in trying to convince me, or anyone for that matter, to share your opinion. Can't help what I hear in the music regardless of what the facts present.
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 13, 2016, 08:59:16 AM
And as I stated, this is what I feel from the 9th and there's no need in trying to convince me, or anyone for that matter, to share your opinion. Can't help what I hear in the music regardless of what the facts present.
I'm not trying to convince you to change your opinion about the music, only to show you that Mahler did not know the end was coming (or if he did, he neither acted like it nor told anyone anything to that effect). This is a misconception that has been based on the distortions of Alma and others, perpetuated by Bernstein and popular commentators.
The Ninth cannot be made more meaningful or less meaningful by Mahler's life circumstances at the time of its composition. The music remains identical, and its meaning likewise. It is only our perspective on that meaning that may (or may not) shift.
Quote from: Mahlerian on November 13, 2016, 08:30:54 AM
I don't understand what's tragic about Mahler's Ninth. It doesn't end in the minor, it doesn't end in despair, it concludes in rarefied serenity and acceptance. All of the stuff about Mahler writing his farewell to the world is BS, as we know for a fact he had no clue that he would die in only 2 years.
To me, like I said of Pettersson´s 6th, it´s not necessarily the question of the music´s progression towards the final part, but the overall language and expression, the staged environment, in a work. This is of course less in accordance with "tragic" in the strict sense of the Greek & Western theatrical tradition. But if sorrow, darkness, resignation or absurdities abound in the music, I still think it´s fair to use the word as a general, layman´s characterization.
There´s an extreme example in Nørgård´s symphony no. 4, inspired by the schizophrenic artist Wölffli, where a solo violin in the last few seconds plays a lyrical theme, as a small appendix, in a predominantly dark world of extreme contrasts, where "no idyll exists without catastrophic disturbances". Nørgård himself wrote of the symphony´s programme, quoting Knut Hamsum:"A prisoner on his tumbrel is wheeled on the scaffold. A nail chafes at his behind, he moves over and feels more comfortable."
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 13, 2016, 08:18:27 AM
I haven't weighed in on this matter yet, but these spring to mind almost immediately:
Shostakovich: Symphony No. 8
Weinberg: Symphony No. 5
Pettersson: Symphony No. 7
Mahler: Symphony No. 9
And about time too! :)
Great choices John - could have selected them all myself. The Weinberg is a particularly appropriate choice as is the Pettersson. In fact they all are and all are works that I love.
Quote from: Mahlerian on November 13, 2016, 08:30:54 AM
I don't understand what's tragic about Mahler's Ninth. It doesn't end in the minor, it doesn't end in despair, it concludes in rarefied serenity and acceptance. All of the stuff about Mahler writing his farewell to the world is BS, as we know for a fact he had no clue that he would die in only 2 years.
I'm sure that there's a terrific section in the opening movement (especially in the Klemperer recording) which is Mahler imagining his own funeral - although maybe I've been too influenced by the Ken Russell film!
Quote from: Mahlerian on November 13, 2016, 09:04:02 AM
I'm not trying to convince you to change your opinion about the music, only to show you that Mahler did not know the end was coming (or if he did, he neither acted like it nor told anyone anything to that effect). This is a misconception that has been based on the distortions of Alma and others, perpetuated by Bernstein and popular commentators.
The Ninth cannot be made more meaningful or less meaningful by Mahler's life circumstances at the time of its composition. The music remains identical, and its meaning likewise. It is only our perspective on that meaning that may (or may not) shift.
A composer doesn't always express his opinion with words. Mahler doesn't strike me as someone who talked about
everything under the sun including what he was feeling within himself. His music did plenty of the speaking for him.
From Mahler himself:
QuoteIf a composer could say what he had to say in words he would not bother trying to say it in music.
I don't really care what the facts are, because, like I said, not everyone discusses their innermost thoughts through day-to-day conversation or even deeper conversation.
Quote from: vandermolen on November 13, 2016, 09:18:23 AM
And about time too! :)
Great choices John - could have selected them all myself. The Weinberg is a particularly appropriate choice as is the Pettersson. In fact they all are and all are works that I love.
;D Thanks, Jeffrey. Apparently, I was
wrong for choosing Mahler's 9th, though. ::) :)
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 13, 2016, 09:23:05 AM
A composer doesn't always express his opinion with words. Mahler doesn't strike me as someone who talked about everything under the sun including what he was feeling within himself. His music did plenty of the speaking for him.
From Mahler himself:
I don't really care what the facts are, because, like I said, not everyone discusses their innermost thoughts through day-to-day conversation or even deeper conversation.
Yes, and "I feel that my death is coming" is in fact something that
can be expressed in words! That we're talking about it at all means that it isn't the type of thing Mahler meant by that statement. What Mahler meant by that quote is that he was not writing music that could be expressed programmatically. He had a very low opinion of the mundanely descriptive qualities of Strauss's tone poems and positioned himself in opposition to that school, so to speak, and it is in that context that the quote in question appears.
Mahler had long had a sense of mortality, including his own. The funeral march that opens the (ultimately optimistic) Fifth Symphony was written after a very close brush with death, and Das Lied von der Erde after the passing of his beloved daughter. I would even agree that death is present throughout the Ninth: there is indeed the funereal section of the first movement, and I would note the quotation from the Kindertotenlieder on the last page. What I don't agree with is either that, in Mahler's mind, death was necessarily connected with tragedy (it certainly was not; although more or less an agnostic as regards institutional religion, he believed in an afterlife), or that the Ninth is about his own death (if it was, there is no external or internal evidence pointing to this).
Interesting. I don't really hear any tragedy in Mahler at all. Plenty of existential angst, and in the last two symphonies a sense of it being resolved, but no real tragedy. And I'd even say the same for the sixth, although thats the piece that comes closest. The end is certainly devastating, but its not quite that beautiful expression of the hopelessness of the protagonist....
Pettersson seems similar to me, even if informed by the horrors of the 20th century Neruda's poetry. As some have said, Symphony No. 6 is again the one that comes closest.
And I really like both composers.
Now Shostakovich 8 - thats tragic, although the most tragic thing Shostakovich wrote, in my view is the 3rd String Quartet. Miaskovsky 6 or Tchaikovsky 6? What is it about 6th symphonies? Russians are quite good at tragedy. Perhaps its the Byzantine/Greek influence on Orthodox culture. I agree that Miaskovsky 3 is certainly tragic too, but not quite such a powerful statement, perhaps.
Non Russian example - For me Elgar's Second works as a tragic piece, dedicated to the memory of King Edward VII, and perhaps the second movement of Bax's First.
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 13, 2016, 09:24:44 AM
;D Thanks, Jeffrey. Apparently, I was wrong for choosing Mahler's 9th, though. ::) :)
No such thing as 'wrong' here I think - we just need to respect the views of others. Speaking personally I don't think that Mahler was unaware of the significance of 'No.9'. Vaughan Williams too - Michael Kennedy the biographer of VW said that there was no 'conscious leave taking' in Symphony 9. I don't agree at all and believe that it is a self-consciously valedictory score and, indeed tragic. Love those harps at the end following three great waves of sound.
Quote from: Mahlerian on November 13, 2016, 09:43:48 AM
Yes, and "I feel that my death is coming" is in fact something that can be expressed in words! That we're talking about it at all means that it isn't the type of thing Mahler meant by that statement. What Mahler meant by that quote is that he was not writing music that could be expressed programmatically. He had a very low opinion of the mundanely descriptive qualities of Strauss's tone poems and positioned himself in opposition to that school, so to speak, and it is in that context that the quote in question appears.
Mahler had long had a sense of mortality, including his own. The funeral march that opens the (ultimately optimistic) Fifth Symphony was written after a very close brush with death, and Das Lied von der Erde after the passing of his beloved daughter. I would even agree that death is present throughout the Ninth: there is indeed the funereal section of the first movement, and I would note the quotation from the Kindertotenlieder on the last page. What I don't disagree with is either that, in Mahler's mind, death was necessarily connected with tragedy (it certainly was not; although more or less an agnostic as regards institutional religion, he believed in an afterlife), or that the Ninth is about his own death (if it was, there is no external or internal evidence pointing to this).
You sure are putting up a fight for something that I merely expressed in passing. I chose this symphony because I believe it's tragic. You're the only one who has now yammered on about how you don't understand why the symphony is associated with such opinions. In fact, you're the one who brought it all up! The fact that there are several people that do associate this symphony as being of a tragic nature speaks strongly of the music itself and not the way Mahler was feeling during this time in his life or what he had gone through in order to get to this point in his own writing. The facts are just the facts, but people can't help the way they react to the music and what kinds of emotions they associate with the music regardless of whether said emotions were intended or not. So, please, just drop it.
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 13, 2016, 11:23:34 AM
You sure are putting up a fight for something that I merely expressed in passing. I chose this symphony because I believe it's tragic. You're the only one who has now yammered on about how you don't understand why the symphony is associated with such opinions. In fact, you're the one who brought it all up! The fact that there are several people that do associate this symphony as being of a tragic nature speaks strongly of the music itself and not the way Mahler was feeling during this time in his life or what he had gone through in order to get to this point in his own writing. The facts are just the facts, but people can't help the way they react to the music and what kinds of emotions they associate with the music regardless of whether said emotions were intended or not. So, please, just drop it.
We all have reactions to music. Those I think matter more than what biographers, or even the composers, say about how, when, or why the music was written. You could find a letter from Sibelius explaining why his Fourth was joyful and I would still find it bleak.
Quote from: vandermolen on November 13, 2016, 10:05:23 AM
No such thing as 'wrong' here I think - we just need to respect the views of others. Speaking personally I don't think that Mahler was unaware of the significance of 'No.9'. Vaughan Williams too - Michael Kennedy the biographer of VW said that there was no 'conscious leave taking' in Symphony 9. I don't agree at all and believe that it is a self-consciously valedictory score and, indeed tragic. Love those harps at the end following three great waves of sound.
I'll have to revisit RVW's 9th (his symphony cycle is one of the best to have ever been written IMHO). To make a further side note, I think it's an absolute shame that RVW's symphonies haven't really traveled all that well. I'd love to hear the Scandinavians tackle these symphonies. Are you reading this Sondergard, Dausgaard, Aadland, or Lindberg? ;D
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 13, 2016, 11:23:34 AM
You sure are putting up a fight for something that I merely expressed in passing. I chose this symphony because I believe it's tragic. You're the only one who has now yammered on about how you don't understand why the symphony is associated with such opinions. In fact, you're the one who brought it all up!
Yes, because like I said, I've found the opinion that the work is tragic, whenever it is brought up, as by Bernstein, to be associated with misconceptions about Mahler and his music.
I'm not fighting your opinion, much less your emotional reaction to the work (didn't I say that that wasn't what I was talking about?). I'm trying to show you that the basis that you are giving to support your opinion is faulty.
I don't believe the work is tragic, though it is certainly extremely powerful. My own thoughts are more in line with La Grange (and could there be anyone who knows more about Mahler???):
Quote from: Henry-Louis de La GrangeLike that of Das Lied von der Erde, this ending is in no way pessimistic or tinged with despair. Whether one discovers a message of hope, a farewell of heart-rending tenderness or the serene acceptance of fate, it cannot be denied that this final Adagio brings with it a sense of supreme fulfillment, an ideal catharsis.
Quote from: Mahlerian on November 13, 2016, 11:49:22 AM
Yes, because like I said, I've found the opinion that the work is tragic, whenever it is brought up, as by Bernstein, to be associated with misconceptions about Mahler and his music.
I'm not fighting your opinion, much less your emotional reaction to the work (didn't I say that that wasn't what I was talking about?). I'm trying to show you that the basis that you are giving to support your opinion is faulty.
I don't believe the work is tragic, though it is certainly extremely powerful. My own thoughts are more in line with La Grange (and could there be anyone who knows more about Mahler???):
Okay and my own thoughts are more inline with Bernstein's. See, how that worked? We both have a differing opinion of the work. Case closed.
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 13, 2016, 11:54:01 AM
Okay and my own thoughts are more inline with Bernstein's. See, how that worked? We both have a differing opinion of the work. Case closed.
But Bernstein was working off of disproven information which has since been superseded by a wider perspective on Mahler's life and character. You can't just expect someone who says that Beethoven was 100% deaf when he wrote the Eroica and uses it as the basis of their arguments to be accepted simply because other people in the past believed it.
How about KA Hartmann Symphony No. 1, 'An Attempt at a Requiem'.
The intentions there are certainly very tragic. Does anyone see this as something that could fit on their list?
I'll add that the first performance of the 9th I ever heard was Tennstedt's on EMI. This was seven years ago. Even as I sat listening to this symphony, I was overcome with the feeling that this symphony was much more notes affixed to a piece of notation paper (to paraphrase a great Takemitsu quote). I sensed some kind of resignation in this music. Whether it was Mahler's own resignation from the world or merely a musical statement on the grand cycle of life, I didn't know and I'll never know. I knew nothing about Mahler's life except a little biographical information, but I certainly did not know where he was at this point in his life and I certainly didn't know what kind of mindset he had upon the writing of the 9th. I simply took away from the music what I perceived to be there. I would never make a ridiculous assertion that these thoughts of my own were, indeed, factual. I will, however, say that these thoughts about what I had experienced are simply my own feelings towards the music and reading Mahlerian's own thoughts and reading what Mahler actually did indeed say during this time of writing his 9th, doesn't, and will never, change my view of the symphony as being one of the most profoundly tragic pieces of music that I know hence why I chose it.
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 13, 2016, 12:04:53 PM
I'll add that the first performance of the 9th I ever heard was Tennstedt's on EMI. This was seven years ago. Even as I sat listening to this symphony, I was overcome with the feeling that this symphony was much more notes affixed to a piece of notation paper (to paraphrase a great Takemitsu quote).
Do you think I
don't feel that way? I believe that the Ninth is a profound and beautiful work and the fact that Mahler had no idea about his coming death does nothing whatsoever to diminish that.
My own view of the work as not being tragic is influenced by the way I hear the piece as ending in glorious and serene resolution of the piece's conflicts. Also, I will admit that I think that Bernstein's view (his expressed view, not his musical interpretation) cheapens the work by narrowing its meaning, as well as by distorting Mahler's personality and aesthetic.
Quote from: Mahlerian on November 13, 2016, 11:58:47 AM
But Bernstein was working off of disproven information which has since been superseded by a wider perspective on Mahler's life and character. You can't just expect someone who says that Beethoven was 100% deaf when he wrote the Eroica and uses it as the basis of their arguments to be accepted simply because other people in the past believed it.
Read my above post. All is explained there. :D
Quote from: Mahlerian on November 13, 2016, 12:09:34 PM
Do you think I don't feel that way? I believe that the Ninth is a profound and beautiful work and the fact that Mahler had no idea about his coming death does nothing whatsoever to diminish that.
My own view of the work as not being tragic is influenced by the way I hear the piece as ending in glorious and serene resolution of the piece's conflicts.
And, as I stated, a piece of music doesn't have to end tragically in order for it to be considered tragic IMHO.
I don't think the 9th Symphony is Tragic, unless in a very general sense, if you think the human condition is tragic in itself. Too much existential angst to be tragic, at least in the normal way (I'm taking Greek tragedy as my guide there). Too much questioning about the meaning of it all etc. Its certainly very good though. The first movement is one of the most stunning things he wrote. I listen to Symphony No. 9 more than virtually anything else he wrote. I used to like Mahler a lot as a teenager - I enjoyed the angst. These days I prefer Sibelius.
But if you want to think Mahler 9 is tragic, thats fine by me. Music speaks in different ways to different people. Admittedly, my definition of tragedy is fairly narrow.
I don't know Mahler's 9th. I just know that watching two avatars of him fighting it out is doing my head in.
Quote from: ørfeo on November 13, 2016, 12:17:04 PM
I don't know Mahler's 9th. I just know that watching two avatars of him fighting it out is doing my head in.
;D
I can sympathise with that. My sense is that Mahler isn't really the most relevant composer to this thread....
Maybe we can have a separate thread for hypothetical arguments between Mahler as a young man and Mahler as an old man (well, 50 ish).
Quote from: ørfeo on November 13, 2016, 12:17:04 PM
I don't know Mahler's 9th. I just know that watching two avatars of him fighting it out is doing my head in.
No longer fret my friend, your aspirin has been administered. :)
Quote from: Androcles on November 13, 2016, 09:50:17 AMNow Shostakovich 8 - that's tragic,
There is an example of a work that I would point to as having a bleak ending despite finishing in C major and outwardly conforming to the "darkness to light" archetype. The violence of the earlier movements is never resolved in the finale, and in fact it reappears just as before.
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 13, 2016, 11:37:50 AM
I'll have to revisit RVW's 9th (his symphony cycle is one of the best to have ever been written IMHO). To make a further side note, I think it's an absolute shame that RVW's symphonies haven't really traveled all that well. I'd love to hear the Scandinavians tackle these symphonies. Are you reading this Sondergard, Dausgaard, Aadland, or Lindberg? ;D
No, they haven't travelled well unfortunately. Amazingly there is a cycle, however, with Rozhdestvensky conducting the soviet Ministry of Culture SO on the Melodiya label - a really extraordinary set.
Quote from: vandermolen on November 13, 2016, 06:03:22 PM
No, they haven't travelled well unfortunately. Amazingly there is a cycle, however, with Rozhdestvensky conducting the soviet Ministry of Culture SO on the Melodiya label - a really extraordinary set.
Yeah, I still haven't hear that particular cycle. In due time. Thanks for the reminder. I imagine Rozhdestvensky actually being good in this music.
Quote from: Mahlerian on November 13, 2016, 12:09:34 PM
Also, I will admit that I think that Bernstein's view (his expressed view, not his musical interpretation) cheapens the work by narrowing its meaning, as well as by distorting Mahler's personality and aesthetic.
Actually that's generally my view of Lenny's interpretation of Mahler. He said he wants the music to give him an orgasm, or what's the point. A very unbalanced view of the music that buries many of its merits IMO. I'll tale Boulez's detached approach.
Quote from: Ken B on November 13, 2016, 06:37:56 PM
Actually that's generally my view of Lenny's interpretation of Mahler. He said he wants the music to give him an orgasm, or what's the point. A very unbalanced view of the music that buries many of its merits IMO.
+1
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 13, 2016, 12:04:53 PM
I'll add that the first performance of the 9th I ever heard was Tennstedt's on EMI. This was seven years ago. Even as I sat listening to this symphony, I was overcome with the feeling that this symphony was much more notes affixed to a piece of notation paper (to paraphrase a great Takemitsu quote). I sensed some kind of resignation in this music. Whether it was Mahler's own resignation from the world or merely a musical statement on the grand cycle of life, I didn't know and I'll never know. I knew nothing about Mahler's life except a little biographical information, but I certainly did not know where he was at this point in his life and I certainly didn't know what kind of mindset he had upon the writing of the 9th. I simply took away from the music what I perceived to be there. I would never make a ridiculous assertion that these thoughts of my own were, indeed, factual. I will, however, say that these thoughts about what I had experienced are simply my own feelings towards the music and reading Mahlerian's own thoughts and reading what Mahler actually did indeed say during this time of writing his 9th, doesn't, and will never, change my view of the symphony as being one of the most profoundly tragic pieces of music that I know hence why I chose it.
As might be said of Beethoven, after his 9th Symphony, what is left for him to add? Instead of glorious joy and triumph over fate, however, Mahler ends his 9th in a fade out similar to his
Song of the Earth. It would be very difficult to construe the endings of the two works as being anything but tragic resignation. So I do believe musically and conceptually they are linked. There is an actual quote (I think the same notes) of the
"Ewig, Ewig" by the French horn shortly after the opening of the last movement of the 9th.
What joins the two on a micro structural level are the descending major 2nds which appear right from the beginning. This is not the pathetic minor 2nd but something more poignant similar to Schubert's heartbreaking passages in major keys.
Leonard Bernstein was particularly devoted to Mahler and I don't think his commentary on the 9th Symphony was nonsense. If not literally true, there is much on the emotional level that is valid for this piece. I saw him conduct the 9th in 1985, after that I fairly wore out a cassette tape with Barbirolli also excellent, who in fact made a year long study of the work before conducting and recording it.
Just thinking about this symphony gives me a feeling of awe.
https://www.youtube.com/v/wWxX-kf-2MI
Quote from: Androcles on November 13, 2016, 12:03:51 PM
How about KA Hartmann Symphony No. 1, 'An Attempt at a Requiem'.
The intentions there are certainly very tragic. Does anyone see this as something that could fit on their list?
And his "Sinfonia Tragica" as well (1940-43):
http://www.gramophone.co.uk/review/hartmann-ka-sinfonia-tragica
It´s been a long time since I heard it, though.
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 13, 2016, 06:07:43 PM
Yeah, I still haven't hear that particular cycle. In due time. Thanks for the reminder. I imagine Rozhdestvensky actually being good in this music.
The BBC did a survey of the different recordings of Vaughan Williams's 'A London Symphony' on Saturday and they included an extract from the Rozhdestvensky Melodiya cycle. It was the march in the last movement which Rozhdestvensky made sound like something composed by Prokofiev! I found it fascinating. It is a most enjoyable set of live recordings - occasionally things go a bit wrong like the organ in Sinfonia Antartica which goes a bit hay wire at one point but this rather adds to the appeal of the set.
Incidentally, to bring things back to the thread topic, I think that there is an element of tragedy hanging over 'A London Symphony' not least the despairing cry which opens the last movement. The symphony can be seen as a requiem for Edwardian England on the eve of the First World War.
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on November 13, 2016, 09:49:57 PMAs might be said of Beethoven, after his 9th Symphony, what is left for him to add? Instead of glorious joy and triumph over fate, however, Mahler ends his 9th in a fade out similar to his Song of the Earth. It would be very difficult to construe the endings of the two works as being anything but tragic resignation. So I do believe musically and conceptually they are linked. There is an actual quote (I think the same notes) of the "Ewig, Ewig" by the French horn shortly after the opening of the last movement of the 9th.
There are certainly connections, although the one minor-key interlude with harp ostinato seems to me the clearest one between Der Abschied and the Ninth.
But I don't hear either work as the least bit tragic. Das Lied ends with a full embrace of nature (in words Mahler wrote himself) and of eternity. An added sixth chord, as he uses to end the work, was for him the harmony of ultimate repose, used also in the gentle ending of the Kindertotenlieder. The Ninth ends very conclusively on a D-flat major triad, and there's nothing equivocal about the ending; the earlier specter of the first movement's second "D minor" theme appears and is clearly overcome. The music then floats away into still repose.
For me, it's impossible to understand how there's anything tragic whatsoever about these works. Wistful, melancholy, perhaps, but tragedy implies that something has gone horribly wrong.
Can almost do this using only 4th symphonies by composers whose names begin with S: Sibelius, Schmidt, Shostakovich.
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on November 13, 2016, 09:49:57 PM
As might be said of Beethoven, after his 9th Symphony, what is left for him to add? Instead of glorious joy and triumph over fate, however, Mahler ends his 9th in a fade out similar to his Song of the Earth. It would be very difficult to construe the endings of the two works as being anything but tragic resignation. So I do believe musically and conceptually they are linked. There is an actual quote (I think the same notes) of the "Ewig, Ewig" by the French horn shortly after the opening of the last movement of the 9th.
What joins the two on a micro structural level are the descending major 2nds which appear right from the beginning. This is not the pathetic minor 2nd but something more poignant similar to Schubert's heartbreaking passages in major keys.
Leonard Bernstein was particularly devoted to Mahler and I don't think his commentary on the 9th Symphony was nonsense. If not literally true, there is much on the emotional level that is valid for this piece. I saw him conduct the 9th in 1985, after that I fairly wore out a cassette tape with Barbirolli also excellent, who in fact made a year long study of the work before conducting and recording it.
Just thinking about this symphony gives me a feeling of awe.
https://www.youtube.com/v/wWxX-kf-2MI
It's an extraordinary work no question about it. As I said many times now, I find the symphony to be a tragic because, for me, there seems to be a sense of Mahler foreseeing the future and it's uncertainty. Then there's this sense of him 'throwing in the towel' so to speak. I can't help but to hear it in the music. Both
Das Lied von der Erde and the 9th have this tragic element that is so appealing and, at the end of the day, completely human. That's my interpretation of these last works. Desolation and the inevitability of death run deep within these works and these elements might not always manifest themselves in full fruition, but I do believe they are there just lying below the surface.
If there is tragedy in the Mahler 9th it is played out in the first three movements. But the first mvtm I'd also put rather as melancholy and resignation although without the "serenity" of the finale. The middle movements contain mockery and defiance and among them "longing", the idyllic passages in the Ländler, and especially the "vision" of the finale theme in the Rondo Burleske.
There are probably all kinds of stories to be associated with this piece, but overall I think it closer to some "redemptive" story, acceptance of mortality, longing for a better past, whatever, but not tragic defeat and catastrophe.
Quote from: Jo498 on November 14, 2016, 08:09:15 AM
If there is tragedy in the Mahler 9th it is played out in the first three movements. But the first mvtm I'd also put rather as melancholy and resignation although without the "serenity" of the finale. The middle movements contain mockery and defiance and among them "longing", the idyllic passages in the Ländler, and especially the "vision" of the finale theme in the Rondo Burleske.
There are probably all kinds of stories to be associated with this piece, but overall I think it closer to some "redemptive" story, acceptance of mortality, longing for a better past, whatever, but not tragic defeat and catastrophe.
The 4th movement in my opinion is still full of angst. Whatever it's worth, the resignation according to Bernstein comes at the very end, which I happen to agree with. I don't see any defeat or catastrophe either, mainly personal longing and suffering.
Quote from: Turner on November 13, 2016, 10:19:59 PM
And his "Sinfonia Tragica" as well (1940-43):
http://www.gramophone.co.uk/review/hartmann-ka-sinfonia-tragica
It´s been a long time since I heard it, though.
I really liked this. It sort of reminds me of Honegger's No. 3. There is an urgency, virtuosity, and tautness to them both. I actually realize I haven't heard anything by Hartman and must explore more. What next?
Quote from: relm1 on November 16, 2016, 03:23:21 PM
I really liked this. It sort of reminds me of Honegger's No. 3. There is an urgency, virtuosity, and tautness to them both. I actually realize I haven't heard anything by Hartman and must explore more. What next?
The violin concerto.
Quote from: relm1 on November 16, 2016, 03:23:21 PM
I really liked this. It sort of reminds me of Honegger's No. 3. There is an urgency, virtuosity, and tautness to them both. I actually realize I haven't heard anything by Hartman and must explore more. What next?
Check out
Symphonische Hymnen next:
https://www.youtube.com/v/ACyRtKSn4kE
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 13, 2016, 11:37:50 AM
I'll have to revisit RVW's 9th (his symphony cycle is one of the best to have ever been written IMHO). To make a further side note, I think it's an absolute shame that RVW's symphonies haven't really traveled all that well. I'd love to hear the Scandinavians tackle these symphonies. Are you reading this Sondergard, Dausgaard, Aadland, or Lindberg? ;D
A number of British conductors too have shown little or no interest in VW's symphonies. Simon Rattle for example and Thomas Beecham who felt much closer to Delius and Sibelius in his recording priorities I think.
Quote from: vandermolen on November 17, 2016, 01:08:33 AM
A number of British conductors too have shown little or no interest in VW's symphonies. Simon Rattle for example and Thomas Beecham who felt much closer to Delius and Sibelius in his recording priorities I think.
Yes and I think it's rather unfortunate as RVW must be counted as one of the greatest
British composers to walk this planet. His music has stayed with me for seven years --- always in the back of my mind somehow. Yeah, Beecham had other priorities (he didn't like Elgar in particular either). I'd love to hear what someone like Edward Gardner would do with RVW's symphonies. Elder has shown a particular interest in RVW, but I only find a number of his performances completely satisfying (i. e. the
Pastoral Symphony).
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 17, 2016, 05:49:00 AM
Yes and I think it's rather unfortunate as RVW must be counted as one of the greatest British composers to walk this planet. His music has stayed with me for seven years --- always in the back of my mind somehow. Yeah, Beecham had other priorities (he didn't like Elgar in particular either). I'd love to hear what someone like Edward Gardner would do with RVW's symphonies. Elder has shown a particular interest in RVW, but I only find a number of his performances completely satisfying (i. e. the Pastoral Symphony).
Yes, I agree John that Elder's version of 'A Pastoral Symphony' is the best of his cycle so far.