This game revolves around those composers who we consider the most innovative in the field of classical composition. As for defining "innovative", that's for each of us to determine through our selections.
There is no interactive element to this particular game. You make a selection, it goes immediately to the voting round. I don't have any specific number of composers in mind; we'll just see how it plays out. If needed, I'll go with multiple voting rounds followed by a finale.
My two selections for today:
Schoenberg
Wagner
Note: Almost forgot to mention that you may make one or two selections daily.
John Cage
Claude Debussy
Jean Sibelius
Bohuslav Martinu
(no clutter)
Hector Berlioz
Claudio Monteverdi
Beethoven
Stravinsky
Webern
Vivaldi
J. Haydn
Ivan Wyschnegradsky
Harry Partch
Selected (15):
Beethoven
Berlioz
Cage
Debussy
Haydn (J.)
Martinu
Monteverdi
Partch
Schoenberg
Sibelius
Stravinsky
Vivaldi
Wagner
Webern
Wyschnegradsky
This is a thread where I would expect to see a healthy amount of cordial conversation/discussion. Innovation is a major classical music topic; just be sure to keep it friendly, and do not cast aspersions on the other selections of other members.
CPE Bach
Franz Liszt
Bela Bartok
Gyorgy Ligeti
Selected (19):
Bach (CPE)
Bartok
Beethoven
Berlioz
Cage
Debussy
Haydn (J.)
Ligeti
Liszt
Martinu
Monteverdi
Partch
Schoenberg
Sibelius
Stravinsky
Vivaldi
Wagner
Webern
Wyschnegradsky
Biber
Chopin
JS Bach
JP Sweelinck
Selected (23):
Bach (CPE)
Bach (JS)
Bartok
Beethoven
Berlioz
Biber
Cage
Chopin
Debussy
Haydn (J.)
Ligeti
Liszt
Martinu
Monteverdi
Partch
Schoenberg
Sibelius
Stravinsky
Sweelinck
Vivaldi
Wagner
Webern
Wyschnegradsky
Quote from: Sammy on March 28, 2018, 09:24:42 AM
This is a thread where I would expect to see a healthy amount of cordial conversation/discussion. Innovation is a major classical music topic; just be sure to keep it friendly, and do not cast aspersions on the other selections of other members.
I'm curious what people consider to be innovative. There are many composers whose music I enjoy, but I don't consider them innovative, merely great exponents of others' innovations. :)
8)
Gesualdo
Stockhausen
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 28, 2018, 12:06:52 PM
I'm curious what people consider to be innovative. There are many composers whose music I enjoy, but I don't consider them innovative, merely great exponents of others' innovations. :)
8)
For my two choices:
Berlioz, as one of the earliest exponents of the full Romantic style, was an innovator in many respects. He invented a new kind of orchestration, created new musical forms nearly out of whole cloth, and his harmonic audacity presaged Wagner's later innovations in that regard.
Monteverdi created a new language based on harmony in contrast to the older modal system, used his new language to great dramatic effect, and through it crafted the first operatic masterpieces.
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 28, 2018, 12:06:52 PM
I'm curious what people consider to be innovative. There are many composers whose music I enjoy, but I don't consider them innovative, merely great exponents of others' innovations. :)
8)
For me, you have
Wyschnegradsky, who took
Scriabin's late tendencies and married them to quarter-tone scales (along with other divisions).
Harry Partch invented microtonal scales and created his own instruments to produce the notes in a 43-tone scale!
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 28, 2018, 12:06:52 PM
I'm curious what people consider to be innovative. There are many composers whose music I enjoy, but I don't consider them innovative, merely great exponents of others' innovations. :)
8)
I chose John Cage, which should be self-explanatory; my other choice was Debussy who was also innovative in a variety of ways, imo. I figure the voting will bear out whether people agree with our choices or not.
Selected (27):
Bach (CPE)
Bach (JS)
Bartok
Beethoven
Berlioz
Biber
Cage
Chopin
Debussy
Gesualdo
Hauer
Haydn (J.)
Ligeti
Liszt
Martinu
Monteverdi
Partch
Schnittke
Schoenberg
Sibelius
Stockhausen
Stravinsky
Sweelinck
Vivaldi
Wagner
Webern
Wyschnegradsky
The two Bach entries leave me curious. Could someone shed some light on their innovative achievements?
Quote from: Mahlerian on March 28, 2018, 12:33:10 PM
For my two choices:
Berlioz, as one of the earliest exponents of the full Romantic style, was an innovator in many respects. He invented a new kind of orchestration, created new musical forms nearly out of whole cloth, and his harmonic audacity presaged Wagner's later innovations in that regard.
Monteverdi created a new language based on harmony in contrast to the older modal system, used his new language to great dramatic effect, and through it crafted the first operatic masterpieces.
Quote from: Marcabru on March 28, 2018, 12:36:21 PM
I chose John Cage, which should be self-explanatory; my other choice was Debussy who was also innovative in a variety of ways, imo. I figure the voting will bear out whether people agree with our choices or not.
Quote from: Cato on March 28, 2018, 12:34:53 PM
For me, you have Wyschnegradsky, who took Scriabin's late tendencies and married them to quarter-tone scales (along with other divisions). Harry Partch invented microtonal scales and created his own instruments to produce the notes in a 43-tone scale!
Those are all reasonable rationales, Berlioz would have been on my list too.
I chose Vivaldi because he was indisputably credited by his peers and immediate descendants as being the inventor of the solo concerto, which form is still used today.
In the realm of tonal music, Haydn virtually created sonata forms and also showed how to exploit tonal aspects of music far beyond anything heard before. As an example directly related to Berlioz, the
col legno battuto indication he used in
Symphonie Fantastique in 1830 was anticipated by Haydn by a good 55 years when he used it in Symphony #67 in 1775. One example in hundreds.
Curious what others' ideas are.
8)
Boulez
Solage
Selected (29):
Bach (CPE)
Bach (JS)
Bartok
Beethoven
Berlioz
Biber
Boulez
Cage
Chopin
Debussy
Gesualdo
Hauer
Haydn (J.)
Ligeti
Liszt
Martinu
Monteverdi
Partch
Schnittke
Schoenberg
Sibelius
Solage
Stockhausen
Stravinsky
Sweelinck
Vivaldi
Wagner
Webern
Wyschnegradsky
Ives (as innovative as anyone on the list and biggest omission that I can see)
Caccini
Léonin
Quote from: Mahlerian on March 28, 2018, 12:33:10 PM
For my two choices:
Berlioz, as one of the earliest exponents of the full Romantic style, was an innovator in many respects. He invented a new kind of orchestration, created new musical forms nearly out of whole cloth, and his harmonic audacity presaged Wagner's later innovations in that regard.
Monteverdi created a new language based on harmony in contrast to the older modal system, used his new language to great dramatic effect, and through it crafted the first operatic masterpieces.
I would agree about Monteverdi except that it was Caccini more than he who started the new music, and also the new notation.
Quote from: Ken B on March 28, 2018, 06:56:18 PM
I would agree about Monteverdi except that it was Caccini more than he who started the new music, and also the new notation.
Your points are well-taken, but if you wish to posit Caccini as an innovator, the best thing would be to put his name forward as a nomination.
As I see you did.
Guillaume de Machaut
John Dunstaple
Dufay
Varèse
Selected (36):
Bach (CPE)
Bach (JS)
Bartok
Beethoven
Berlioz
Biber
Boulez
Caccini
Cage
Chopin
Debussy
Dufay
Dunstable
Gesualdo
Hauer
Haydn (J.)
Ives
Léonin
Ligeti
Liszt
Machaut
Martinu
Monteverdi
Partch
Schnittke
Schoenberg
Sibelius
Solage
Stockhausen
Stravinsky
Sweelinck
Varèse
Vivaldi
Wagner
Webern
Wyschnegradsky
Quote from: Sammy on March 28, 2018, 12:50:00 PM
The two Bach entries leave me curious. Could someone shed some light on their innovative achievements?
CPE Bach is reasonable as basically the inventor of the modern sonata, of
empfindsamkeit (sp), and the person most instrumental in the transition from style rococo via style galante to the fully formed "classical style", and was cited by Haydn and Mozart (among others) as an influence. I don't really understand the presence of JS Bach on the list though. Or Sibelius.
Verdi (innovative in how he developed more traditional forms to suit the drama of the music)
Brahms (innovative in his harmonic language and scope, thematic development, sheer irregularity of modulatory and developmental passages within traditional large forms just as much as in shorter piano music and songs)
Debussy
Stravinsky
I don't think I need to explain the innovations of these composers as they speak for themselves.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 29, 2018, 05:27:08 AM
Debussy
Stravinsky
I don't think I need to explain the innovations of these composers as they speak for themselves.
Maybe not, but you need to explain why you are nominating composers already on the list. :P
Quote from: Marcabru on March 29, 2018, 05:40:18 AM
Maybe not, but you need to explain why you are nominating composers already on the list. :P
Ah, it might help if I actually read the rules for the thread. ;)
Quote from: The One on March 29, 2018, 05:26:44 AM
Technically, JS Bach and Brahms were famous/infamous for not being innovators. What they both did was perfecting what they already had.
I thought Brahms' innovations were important in laying the groundwork for the Second Viennese School. I'm yet to come across sound evidence that Brahms was more conservative in the areas I've described.
I'm not fully aware of Bach's innovations, but I find that his harmonies are often richer and more chromatic than that of his contemporaries and his approach to form seems to highlight thematic development through counterpoint more than in the music of others, but also, I think some of those traits were more common in earlier music anyway.
Quote from: jessop on March 29, 2018, 05:48:26 AM
I thought Brahms' innovations were important in laying the groundwork for the Second Viennese School. I'm yet to come across sound evidence that Brahms was more conservative in the areas I've described.
I'm not fully aware of Bach's innovations, but I find that his harmonies are often richer and more chromatic than that of his contemporaries and his approach to form seems to highlight thematic development through counterpoint more than in the music of others, but also, I think some of those traits were more common in earlier music anyway.
A book called
Bruckner, Mahler, Schoenberg by
Schoenberg's student
Dika Newlin proposed a line to the Second Viennese School indicated in the book's title. Given that
Schoenberg wrote an essay called
Brahms, The Progressive, I do not see how
Brahms can be excluded as at least part of the family tree.
Scroll down to page 52:
https://monoskop.org/images/8/84/Schoenberg_Arnold_Style_and_Idea.pdf (https://monoskop.org/images/8/84/Schoenberg_Arnold_Style_and_Idea.pdf)
Afaik,
CPE Bach was instrumental in bringing about both the
empfindsamer Stil and the
style galant, thus breaking away from High Baroque and markedly pointing towards Classical; there are even proto-Romantic features to be found in his music.
In my book he's much more innovative than his father (this is an observation, not a value judgment, mind you.)
Oh,
amw beat me to it:
Quote from: amw on March 28, 2018, 09:43:25 PM
CPE Bach is reasonable as basically the inventor of the modern sonata, of empfindsamkeit (sp), and the person most instrumental in the transition from style rococo via style galante to the fully formed "classical style", and was cited by Haydn and Mozart (among others) as an influence.
Precisely.
My other choice is
Liszt and I think it's self-explanatory.
Langgaard - If Ligeti is going to be on the list, then Langgaard needs to be on it, too! There's an amusing tale of Per Nørgård placing the score of Sfærernes Musik (Music of the Spheres) in front of Ligeti. Basically, the innovations found in Ligeti's Atmosphères had already been done previously in Langgaard's work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OX_4cJyhgI
Janáček - He simply created an entire school of opera almost single-handedly. By mimicking the speech patterns in the Czech language, he forged a completely new opera style, although some may very well argue that Debussy had already achieved this (but obviously in French) in his opera Pelléas et Mélisande. Well, there's room for both composers on the list!
Selected (40):
Bach (CPE)
Bach (JS)
Bartok
Beethoven
Berlioz
Biber
Brahms
Boulez
Caccini
Cage
Chopin
Debussy
Dufay
Dunstable
Gesualdo
Hauer
Haydn (J.)
Ives
Janáček
Langgaard
Léonin
Ligeti
Liszt
Machaut
Martinu
Monteverdi
Partch
Schnittke
Schoenberg
Sibelius
Solage
Stockhausen
Stravinsky
Sweelinck
Varèse
Verdi
Vivaldi
Wagner
Webern
Wyschnegradsky
Mozart
Quote from: mc ukrneal on March 29, 2018, 06:48:58 AM
Mozart
Hey, the thread is about innovative, not revolutionary! :laugh:
Mahler (created a new kind of symphonic form and a new kind of orchestration, both of which were influential on the Second Viennese School, Shostakovich, and others)
Messiaen (formalized a new harmonic/melodic language, presented new ways of looking at and treating rhythm)
Quote from: Florestan on March 29, 2018, 07:01:30 AM
Hey, the thread is about innovative, not revolutionary! :laugh:
Should I retract him? :)
Quote from: Cato on March 29, 2018, 05:59:48 AM
A book called Bruckner, Mahler, Schoenberg by Schoenberg's student Dika Newlin proposed a line to the Second Viennese School indicated in the book's title. Given that Schoenberg wrote an essay called Brahms, The Progressive, I do not see how Brahms can be excluded as at least part of the family tree.
Scroll down to page 52:
https://monoskop.org/images/8/84/Schoenberg_Arnold_Style_and_Idea.pdf (https://monoskop.org/images/8/84/Schoenberg_Arnold_Style_and_Idea.pdf)
Thanks for this! I'm aware of ideas present in 'Brahms the progressive' but I have not read the essay. This PDF looks like a delightful read! Thank you, Cato! :)
Hildegard von Bingen
Nancarrow
Selected (43):
Bach (CPE)
Bach (JS)
Bartok
Beethoven
Berlioz
Biber
Brahms
Boulez
Caccini
Cage
Chopin
Debussy
Dufay
Dunstable
Gesualdo
Hauer
Haydn (J.)
Hildegard von Bingen
Ives
Janáček
Langgaard
Léonin
Ligeti
Liszt
Machaut
Martinu
Monteverdi
Mozart
Nancarrow
Partch
Schnittke
Schoenberg
Sibelius
Solage
Stockhausen
Stravinsky
Sweelinck
Varèse
Verdi
Vivaldi
Wagner
Webern
Wyschnegradsky
I'm going to keep submittals open for another 24 hours. If you have more composers who you feel deserve a spot in this innovation game, now is the time to take action. :)
Vincenzo Bellini. In his works, melody supplanted declamation in opera.
Charles Koechlin. He parted ways with tradition in terms of instrumental combinations and orchestration.
Gluck
Boulanger
Quote from: Sammy on March 29, 2018, 04:48:01 PM
I'm going to keep submittals open for another 24 hours. If you have more composers who you feel deserve a spot in this innovation game, now is the time to take action. :)
Good to hear, does this mean we can only support the composers already nominated to get a 'game ready' list after that time is up?
Quote from: jessop on March 29, 2018, 06:21:38 PM
Good to hear, does this mean we can only support the composers already nominated to get a 'game ready' list after that time is up?
The "game ready" aspect only applies to interactive games. In this game, your pick is automatically in the voting round(s).
Selected (47):
Bach (CPE)
Bach (JS)
Bartok
Beethoven
Bellini
Berlioz
Biber
Brahms
Boulanger (L.)
Boulez
Caccini
Cage
Chopin
Debussy
Dufay
Dunstable
Gesualdo
Gluck
Hauer
Haydn (J.)
Hildegard von Bingen
Ives
Janáček
Koechlin
Langgaard
Léonin
Ligeti
Liszt
Machaut
Martinu
Monteverdi
Mozart
Nancarrow
Partch
Schnittke
Schoenberg
Sibelius
Solage
Stockhausen
Stravinsky
Sweelinck
Varèse
Verdi
Vivaldi
Wagner
Webern
Wyschnegradsky
I have been thinking about selecting Zappa, but most of his innovation is in his synthesis of popular and classical styles and techniques, his approach to directing group improvisation, and his experimental work in the recording studio, all of which has proven more relevant to popular music than classical as far as I can see. Though, as folks no doubt know, I appreciate his work immensely, I don't think he had enough time to master the orchestra or chamber ensembles the way he mastered all the things he was working with daily, so the innovation is kind of all on one side.
Corelli
Scelsi
Selected (49):
Bach (CPE)
Bach (JS)
Bartok
Beethoven
Bellini
Berlioz
Biber
Brahms
Boulanger (L.)
Boulez
Caccini
Cage
Chopin
Corelli
Debussy
Dufay
Dunstable
Gesualdo
Gluck
Hauer
Haydn (J.)
Hildegard von Bingen
Ives
Janáček
Koechlin
Langgaard
Léonin
Ligeti
Liszt
Machaut
Martinu
Monteverdi
Mozart
Nancarrow
Partch
Scelsi
Schnittke
Schoenberg
Sibelius
Solage
Stockhausen
Stravinsky
Sweelinck
Varèse
Verdi
Vivaldi
Wagner
Webern
Wyschnegradsky
Schumann
He admittedly also has a conservative strain, especially in symphonies. But independently of Chopin he raised the "small salon piece" to the level of serious music and both his piano solo and his song cycles are seminal in this area because as cycles short pieces could gain weight and complexity. He is also one of the most sophisticated composers as far as allusion, quotations, both musical and literary ones, go, another aspect that remained important in the later 19th and 20th century.
Last minute additions:
Francesco Landini
Luc Ferrari
Quote from: Marc on March 29, 2018, 03:51:40 PM
Hildegard von Bingen
If possible, I'd like to make a 2nd pick for the day... Scriabin.
Percy Grainger, an innovative orchestrator as well as an extraordinary inventor of new musical instruments, electronic and acoustic, with a focus on microtonal and non-metrical 'free music.' Also one of the first composers to propose the study of music from a wider variety of cultures outside of the western tradition.
Luigi Russolo, Italian futurist composer, inventor and manifesto writer, categorised sounds and built machine to replicate them years before musique concrète really took off.
Berg (combined learned techniques and detailed pre-compositional plans with opera in a novel way to serve the drama, influential on several subsequent opera composers)
Carter (treated large-scale rhythm in new ways, combining this with an impulse towards music of highly variegated characters)
Selected (57):
Bach (CPE)
Bach (JS)
Bartok
Beethoven
Bellini
Berg
Berlioz
Biber
Brahms
Boulanger (L.)
Boulez
Caccini
Cage
Carter
Chopin
Corelli
Debussy
Dufay
Dunstable
Ferrari
Gesualdo
Gluck
Grainger
Hauer
Haydn (J.)
Hildegard von Bingen
Ives
Janáček
Koechlin
Landini
Langgaard
Léonin
Ligeti
Liszt
Machaut
Martinu
Monteverdi
Mozart
Nancarrow
Partch
Russolo
Scelsi
Schnittke
Schoenberg
Schumann
Scriabin
Sibelius
Solage
Stockhausen
Stravinsky
Sweelinck
Varèse
Verdi
Vivaldi
Wagner
Webern
Wyschnegradsky
O.K. it's about time to close down the submission desk and embark on the real game except for one item. "57" is not an administrative-friendly number, so I'm adding one more composer to the list - Tishchenko.
Selected (58):
Bach (CPE)
Bach (JS)
Bartok
Beethoven
Bellini
Berg
Berlioz
Biber
Brahms
Boulanger (L.)
Boulez
Caccini
Cage
Carter
Chopin
Corelli
Debussy
Dufay
Dunstable
Ferrari
Gesualdo
Gluck
Grainger
Hauer
Haydn (J.)
Hildegard von Bingen
Ives
Janáček
Koechlin
Landini
Langgaard
Léonin
Ligeti
Liszt
Machaut
Martinu
Monteverdi
Mozart
Nancarrow
Partch
Russolo
Scelsi
Schnittke
Schoenberg
Schumann
Scriabin
Sibelius
Solage
Stockhausen
Stravinsky
Sweelinck
Tishchenko
Varèse
Verdi
Vivaldi
Wagner
Webern
Wyschnegradsky
Round One of our innovative game will begin shortly.